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Still Waters

Meningitis B vaccine gets European licence

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A vaccine to protect children against one of the most common and deadly forms of meningitis has been licensed for use in Europe.

The Bexsero vaccine licensed by the European Commission is the first to cover meningococcal B meningitis - until now vaccines had protected against only some of the bacterial types involved.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...health-21140285

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Are meningitis cases really so high as to warrant all children being vaccinated? I'm not so sure.

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Are meningitis cases really so high as to warrant all children being vaccinated? I'm not so sure.

Oh come on.

MenB is caused by bacteria, leading to inflammation of the lining around the brain and spinal cord. It can kill within 24 hours and infants are at highest risk.

This is what, absolutely without doubt, warrants it.

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Oh come on.

MenB is caused by bacteria, leading to inflammation of the lining around the brain and spinal cord. It can kill within 24 hours and infants are at highest risk.

This is what, absolutely without doubt, warrants it.

I am fully aware of what meningitis is, its effects, its dangers when someone has it. I even had a friend who had it twice in his life. This is not what I'm talking about. What I mean is that is it widespread enough to warrant yet more, potentially dangerous, vaccines being given to children? Do the potential positives outweigh the potential negatives? It's clear that with diseases like polio the juice was worth the squeeze, but then there is the flu, where it is not so clear. This is what I am asking. With the tiny amount of people who actually end up suffering from meningitis, is it worth putting yet more potentially dangerous chemicals, through the use of vaccines, into our children, en mass?

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I am fully aware of what meningitis is, its effects, its dangers when someone has it. I even had a friend who had it twice in his life. This is not what I'm talking about. What I mean is that is it widespread enough to warrant yet more, potentially dangerous, vaccines being given to children? Do the potential positives outweigh the potential negatives? It's clear that with diseases like polio the juice was worth the squeeze, but then there is the flu, where it is not so clear. This is what I am asking. With the tiny amount of people who actually end up suffering from meningitis, is it worth putting yet more potentially dangerous chemicals, through the use of vaccines, into our children, en mass?

For starters; Why would you say it is potentially more dangerous??

Man, it's really become way to hip to be suspicious of vaccines and medicines, that are used to PREVENT ILLNESS AND CURE PPL. Seriously.

Vaccines got through a tiresome process of test after test after test etc : when and if it can finally be approved that means the bad outweighs the good

But oh no, you must have a case. They're trying the vaccinate children, it's probably another evil corporation planning to create a generation of mutants and everyone in that is involved in the process of developing and approving and marketing this vaccine is in on it. Everyone is evil.

Edited by Render

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For starters; Why would you say it is potentially more dangerous??

Man, it's really become way to hip to be suspicious of vaccines and medicines, that are used to PREVENT ILLNESS AND CURE PPL. Seriously.

Vaccines got through a tiresome process of test after test after test etc : when and if it can finally be approved that means the bad outweighs the good

But oh no, you must have a case. They're trying the vaccinate children, it's probably another evil corporation planning to create a generation of mutants and everyone in that is involved in the process of developing and approving and marketing this vaccine is in on it. Everyone is evil.

Because the pharmaceutical company is making money the more people they give it to. All Pharmaceutical companies care about is profit not peoples lives.

If they cared about peoples lives they wouldn't sell HIV contaminated drugs AFTER being caught doing it and knowing they are contaminated.

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For starters; Why would you say it is potentially more dangerous??

Man, it's really become way to hip to be suspicious of vaccines and medicines, that are used to PREVENT ILLNESS AND CURE PPL. Seriously.

Vaccines got through a tiresome process of test after test after test etc : when and if it can finally be approved that means the bad outweighs the good

But oh no, you must have a case. They're trying the vaccinate children, it's probably another evil corporation planning to create a generation of mutants and everyone in that is involved in the process of developing and approving and marketing this vaccine is in on it. Everyone is evil.

This is not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that with any cure there comes potential risks, whether it be the flu vaccine or polio vaccine. Any medication for that matter. Around 300 people a year die in the U.S. from taking aspirin every year for example. And what I am trying to ask is whether or not the benefits outweigh the risks in this case. It really isn't all that unreasonable a question, in my opinion.

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I understand what you are saying EMM. If one child dies from Meningitis but 5 die from the vaccine was it worth it. Most of the drugs on the market have potentially dangerous side effects. In some cases it might be worth it as a treatment, like with diabetes, but as a preventative measure it might not.

I would say its worth the vaccination if the disease is taking too many lives or the negative drug reactions are minimal.

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This is not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that with any cure there comes potential risks, whether it be the flu vaccine or polio vaccine. Any medication for that matter. Around 300 people a year die in the U.S. from taking aspirin every year for example. And what I am trying to ask is whether or not the benefits outweigh the risks in this case. It really isn't all that unreasonable a question, in my opinion.

I understand what you are saying EMM. If one child dies from Meningitis but 5 die from the vaccine was it worth it. Most of the drugs on the market have potentially dangerous side effects. In some cases it might be worth it as a treatment, like with diabetes, but as a preventative measure it might not.

I would say its worth the vaccination if the disease is taking too many lives or the negative drug reactions are minimal.

If you ppl can think this doomscenario up you can be sure of it that ppl who do this as a profession have thought of it.

A vaccine doesn't just pop up on the market. Every element of approving this and injecting this into ppl is being taken into account, that is what all the tests are for.

from the article:

About 1,870 people contract meningitis B each year and one in 10 die.

Experts say the jab is likely to be effective against 73% of the different variations of meningitis B.

A vaccine against the less common meningitis C has been administered since 1999 and is now widely given to babies in the first year of their life.

It has led to a large fall in the number of cases in people under the age of 20.

How rude to immediately insinuate that this vaccine would cause more ppl to die or get hurt from it instead of reducing the horrible risk of MenB.

Don't get fooled by the hype of being anti-pharma and anti-vaccine.

Where are the times that ppl read this and rejoice that a vaccine has been found. A lil hooray would be in order here.

Edited by Render

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If you ppl can think this doomscenario up you can be sure of it that ppl who do this as a profession have thought of it.

A vaccine doesn't just pop up on the market. Every element of approving this and injecting this into ppl is being taken into account, that is what all the tests are for.

from the article:

About 1,870 people contract meningitis B each year and one in 10 die.

Experts say the jab is likely to be effective against 73% of the different variations of meningitis B.

A vaccine against the less common meningitis C has been administered since 1999 and is now widely given to babies in the first year of their life.

It has led to a large fall in the number of cases in people under the age of 20.

How rude to immediately insinuate that this vaccine would cause more ppl to die or get hurt from it instead of reducing the horrible risk of MenB.

Don't get fooled by the hype of being anti-pharma and anti-vaccine.

Where are the times that ppl read this and rejoice that a vaccine has been found. A lil hooray would be in order here.

I wasn't insinuating anything, I was outright asking. You act as though mistakes haven't been made in the past, and as though at times dangerous drugs haven't even been deliberately put on the market after they have already been mass produced before a problem was found. We should always be extremely wary of what we put in our bodies and allow to be put into others. ALL medical drugs have the potential to kill or maim the people who take them. Another example: Anti-psychotics can cause blood clots that can travel to the lungs and kill people. They can also cause heart failure. See my point? I'm not sure what you're not getting here, all while throwing around labels like 'you people'.

Horrible risk of MenB? Horrible risk? In any given year, you have about as much chance of winning the lottery if you play 3 times a week as you have of dying from MenB. Of course this is no consolation to the parents of those who have died, and no consolation to those left altered after recovering, but how many people will have adverse effects from the vaccine? And would this be comparable to the adverse effects of the disease, including death? These are questions that need to be asked by people outside of the regular circles, as they have shown over the years they cannot always be trusted and impartial in these matters.

There is a prime example in the UK/Europe forum where people were left suffering after a vaccine. It's not always worth it; this is what I'm saying. There's no point in going to the extreme on either side. No point in someone outright claiming: of course the meds are ok, they have been tested. And no point in someone else saying: I don't trust any vaccine they manufacture because of problems in the past. We must be very wary, this is what I am saying.

Edited by ExpandMyMind

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I wasn't insinuating anything, I was outright asking.

Im sorry but this:

What I mean is that is it widespread enough to warrant yet more, potentially dangerous, vaccines being given to children? Do the potential positives outweigh the potential negatives?

Is a very clear example of insinuation. It's not because you pose it as a question it's not a insinuation.

You act as though mistakes haven't been made in the past, and as though at times dangerous drugs haven't even been deliberately put on the market after they have already been mass produced before a problem was found.

I don't know what that has to do with this case, except doomy speculation that every pharmaceutical company must be evil because mistakes happened in the past. There is no correlation between one and the other. You're seeing things that aren't there.

We should always be extremely wary of what we put in our bodies and allow to be put into others. ALL medical drugs have the potential to kill or maim the people who take them. Another example: Anti-psychotics can cause blood clots that can travel to the lungs and kill people. They can also cause heart failure. See my point? I'm not sure what you're not getting here, all while throwing around labels like 'you people'.

I see your point. It's always good to ask questions, and all the information is out there and nothing to back up the claim that this vaccine is dangerous.

I didn't mean "you people" as an insult, dont see why you;re getting all sensitive about that. I meant it literally as in "you, the ppl who are making claims that this vaccine has a dangerous side to it" ==> you ppl in short.

Horrible risk of MenB? Horrible risk?

Yup, the effects of an infection are horrible, this is what that sentence meant. It's a horrible risk to have in the world.

And as i've quoted before from the article :

About 1,870 people contract meningitis B each year and one in 10 die.

Experts say the jab is likely to be effective against 73% of the different variations of meningitis B.

A vaccine against the less common meningitis C has been administered since 1999 and is now widely given to babies in the first year of their life.

It has led to a large fall in the number of cases in people under the age of 20.

Are you now gonna say this was a bad decision to vaccinate ppl against menC, because it's even less common than menB?

These are questions that need to be asked by people outside of the regular circles, as they have shown over the years they cannot always be trusted and impartial in these matters.
.

ANd as i've said previously:

If you ppl can think this doomscenario up you can be sure of it that ppl who do this as a profession have thought of it.

They analyse all these questions as their job, this is what they do. You're not the only one in the world asking those questions. The ppl who are involved in the entire process of getting this product on the market ask themselves a bunch of extra questions before, things don't just get approved.

There is a prime example in the UK/Europe forum where people were left suffering after a vaccine. It's not always worth it; this is what I'm saying. There's no point in going to the extreme on either side. No point in someone outright claiming: of course the meds are ok, they have been tested. And no point in someone else saying: I don't trust any vaccine they manufacture because of problems in the past. We must be very wary, this is what I am saying.

I understand, many have become wary and have extrapolated examples to other cases that have nothing to do with each other. This is called panic.

Can mistakes happen? Sure, but what is there left if you can't have any trust in the world anymore because things happened in the past.

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There are two forms of meningitis. One is not contageous,one is .One is more deadly than the other .

I ,as a paramedic for 17 YEARS...as in years,was exposed to meningitis twice .

So,given I picked up sick people on any given day ,about 8 times,multiple 8 by 20 ,then multiple that by 12,and that by 17,and that's how many sick people I've been exposed to in my life .

So...Two times,in 17 years.

Of the two, I was only exposed to the one that's contagious ,once. I also didn't catch it .

So yah,its a,very very rare occurrence to be exposed to meningitis ,and there's no need for a vaccine ,at all.

It's an excuse to scare parents into making them more money,by giving them another unnecessary vaccination .

But people on this board with absolutely no medical expertise at all,all know better than people that actually see patients in real ,day to day life.

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I heard Europe is also working on a bubonic plague vaccine too . That's also just so common ...until they weaponize it of course .Let us know when that goes on line .

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I heard Europe is also working on a bubonic plague vaccine too . That's also just so common ...until they weaponize it of course .Let us know when that goes on line .

The bubonic plague has already been cured, or rather, more or less successfully treated.

Several classes of antibiotics are effective in treating bubonic plague. These include aminoglycosides such as streptomycin and gentamicin, tetracyclines (especially doxycycline), and the fluoroquinolone ciprofloxacin. Mortality associated with treated cases of bubonic plague is about 1-15%, compared to a mortality rate of 40-60% in untreated cases.[7]

People potentially infected with the plague need immediate treatment and should be given antibiotics within 24 hours of the first symptoms to prevent death. Other treatments include oxygen, intravenous fluids, and respiratory support. People who have had contact with anyone infected by pneumonic plague are given prophylactic antibiotics.[8] Using the broad-based antibiotic streptomycin has proven to be dramatically successful against the bubonic plague within 12 hours of infection.

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Still doling out bad information?

There are two forms of meningitis. One is not contageous,one is .One is more deadly than the other .

Wrong, meningitis---'itis' is from the Greek and Latin root for "inflammation of x". So meningitis is inflammation of the meninges. The meninges are membranes which cover CNS tissues, made of 3 layers: the dura, arachnoid and pia.

Lots of things (many more than two) can cause meningitis. You can have bacterial, viral, fungal or aseptic meningitis (chemicals, autoimmune, etc). In each of these 4 main categories you have lots of different possible offending agents.

I ,as a paramedic for 17 YEARS...as in years,was exposed to meningitis twice .

So,given I picked up sick people on any given day ,about 8 times,multiple 8 by 20 ,then multiple that by 12,and that by 17,and that's how many sick people I've been exposed to in my life .

So...Two times,in 17 years.

I appreciate you were a EMT, the world needs lots of EMTs--It doesn't make you an expert on medicine, pathophys etc. You learn BASIC life support skills as an EMT. Not pathophys, not medical micro etc. Hence you were an ENT and not an MD.

Of the two, I was only exposed to the one that's contagious ,once. I also didn't catch it .

So yah,its a,very very rare occurrence to be exposed to meningitis ,and there's no need for a vaccine ,at all.

No nonsense. Again there are many types of meningitis. Viral meningitis, while scary from a patient's stand point, is much less threatening to life than bacterial or fungal. The poo viruses, or better picornaviruses are rather good at causing viral meningitis. This family of viruses includes viruses such as echo, coxasckie and polio viruses. Generally the course of viral meningitis is self limited and doesn't require major medical intervention, sometimes people "tough out" these infections at home never realizing they had viral meningitis.

However there are some viral infections we really worry about causing meningitis. HSV is one of those viruses. HSV 1 and 2 have a different predilection for causing meningitis vs encephalitis vs meningoencephalitis. However that is only a general rule both (as well as other herpes family viruses, such as CMV, EBV and chickenpox) are capable of cause either or. Herpes family viral brain infections tend to have a much more serious course and we tend to treat them more aggressively because of that.

HIV also causes a primary brain infections. Other less common but certainly very dangerous viruses are ones like Dengue, yellow-fever and the bunyaviridea as well all capable of causing meningitis/meningioencephalitis.

Bacterial meningitis (cue scary music) is the one you hear all the fear about in popular media. Bacterial meningitis is very serious and the natural history of bacterial meningitis without medical intervention is.....death. Every time. Unfortunately, sometimes even with treatment bacterial meningitis results in death.

There are lots of bacteria capable of causing meningitis but lets just go through the most common by age group. In Newborns (think 0-6 months of life) bacterial meningitis is most commonly caused by Group B strep (Streptococcus agalactiae)--which is why all preggo ladies are tested for it, E. coli and Listeria. All but the latter normally come from exposure during passage through the birth canal. The latter, Listeria, can actually cross the placenta as well.

In children the most common causes are Streptococcus pneumonia (also the most common cause of pneumonia), Neisseria meningitidis (meningiococcus) and Haemophilus influenza capsular type B (which we thankfully don't see much of anymore in developed nations because of the HiB vaccine--go ahead insert your rant about vaccines here). That distribution stays about the same throughout adult with meningiococcus taking the lead for a while in early adult life (20s); more on meningiococcus in a minute. As you get to 60s and 70s you start to get more 'exotic' bacteria showing up like gram negative rods (think E. coli, klebsiella etc) and Listeria showing up again.

-Ill save fungi and aseptic for another day.

**You'll notice that:

1. You were wrong about exposure, you're exposed to lots of potential meningitis causing organisms everyday

2. ALL these infectious causes are actually contagious, not "1 of 2" as you claim.

It's an excuse to scare parents into making them more money,by giving them another unnecessary vaccination .

Uhh no. More to the OP. The problem we've had before this isn't that we haven't had a meningiococcial vaccine, we have. What we haven't had though is a vaccine to capsular polysaccharide B.

Here's the quick and dirty on how vaccines work.

For you body to create immunity to an antigen you need two things. 1 you need a t cell response, t cells are then capable of priming b cells and creating long lasting immunity (read memory cells). 2 you need the b cell response, which is the antibody making arm of the humoral immune response. To mount this sequence of events you need protein antigen to active t cells. T cells aren't capable of 'priming' b cells without protein antigen. B cells are capable of making antibody to just polysaccharide (think sugars) by themselves, however you can't establish long last immunity in this way. We get around this by conjugating polysaccharide antigens to proteins to provide long lasting immunity.

The problem with some pathogenic bacteria, such as meningiococcus, is they contain polysaccharide (think sugars) coats which help them evade the immune system by making them harder to phagocytize and helps "hide" their proteins from the immune system. There are different serovars of bacteria (think of them kind like a subspecies) which have different capsular makeups from each other. Previously we have had meningiococcial vaccines against 4 of the 6 capsular serotypes that almost exclusively cause human disease (I believe there are actually 12 or 13 serotypes IIRC)--that is serovars A, C, Y and W.

Serogroup B has many antigenic similarities to human neuronal cells, which has made developing a vaccine against it prohibitive in the past. Which is unfortunate because meningiococcus B certainly causes its fair share of bacterial meningitis (not to mention other bad things like meningiococcial septicemia and Waterhouse-Friderichsen syndrome), however it appears Novartis has found a solution to this problem and developed a working vaccine.

By the way, vaccines are particularly profitable. If these pharma companies were so evil they wouldn't develop a vaccine against type B (which isn't going to make them lots of money), they would just come up with better abx which penetrate the meninges for treating meningiococcial meningitis.

But people on this board with absolutely no medical expertise at all,all know better than people that actually see patients in real ,day to day life.

I'm sorry but again, being an EMT and having an undergrad degree in biology (undergrad degrees in biology really don't teach you anything about medicine, come to think of it an undergrad degree in biology doesn't teach you all that much biology, it does serve as a jumping off point if you wanted to go get further education though) doesn't actually give any medical expertise at all. Really none.

So until you've seen someone literally decompensating on the hospital bed from bacterial meningitis with their blood pressure tanking in the crapper right before your eyes, peticheia popping up every time you walk in to the room and you end up coding them right there, despite you pumping **** loads of 3rd gen cephalosporins in them, blasting them with heavy ass broad specs like meropenem administered intrathecally, pressors, epi, IV fluid boluses etc--Then you can come talk about how much "medicine" you do and know.

Edited by Copasetic
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Are meningitis cases really so high as to warrant all children being vaccinated? I'm not so sure.

Yes (see my above post for more info as well). In the US we have about 3-4,000 cases of meningiococcial infections a year. Are most common serogroups are A, Y and B, IIRC. Even treated meningiococial meningitis (well really all bacterial meningitis) has a mortality rate somewhere between 10-20%, which is scary high. Think about that, that means that even despite aggressive medical treatment potentially 1 in 5 people that get it will die anyway.

Ifink, iirc, parts of Europe have larger problems with group B than we have here in the states. And I remember that in other parts of the world meningiococcial infections are as high as 17-20 per 100,000 (vs the 1-2 per 100,000 we have in the US).

So yes, this is a good thing and will save many lives. I just hope it gets licensed in the US. The FDA is pretty stingy about licensing vaccines developed in other countries here, even ones in the EU and even ones with lots of evidence supporting their use :no:

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Still doling out bad information?

Wrong, meningitis---'itis' is from the Greek and Latin root for "inflammation of x". So meningitis is inflammation of the meninges. The meninges are membranes which cover CNS tissues, made of 3 layers: the dura, arachnoid and pia.

Lots of things (many more than two) can cause meningitis. You can have bacterial, viral, fungal or aseptic meningitis (chemicals, autoimmune, etc). In each of these 4 main categories you have lots of different possible offending agents.

I appreciate you were a EMT, the world needs lots of EMTs--It doesn't make you an expert on medicine, pathophys etc. You learn BASIC life support skills as an EMT. Not pathophys, not medical micro etc. Hence you were an ENT and not an MD.

No nonsense. Again there are many types of meningitis. Viral meningitis, while scary from a patient's stand point, is much less threatening to life than bacterial or fungal. The poo viruses, or better picornaviruses are rather good at causing viral meningitis. This family of viruses includes viruses such as echo, coxasckie and polio viruses. Generally the course of viral meningitis is self limited and doesn't require major medical intervention, sometimes people "tough out" these infections at home never realizing they had viral meningitis.

However there are some viral infections we really worry about causing meningitis. HSV is one of those viruses. HSV 1 and 2 have a different predilection for causing meningitis vs encephalitis vs meningoencephalitis. However that is only a general rule both (as well as other herpes family viruses, such as CMV, EBV and chickenpox) are capable of cause either or. Herpes family viral brain infections tend to have a much more serious course and we tend to treat them more aggressively because of that.

HIV also causes a primary brain infections. Other less common but certainly very dangerous viruses are ones like Dengue, yellow-fever and the bunyaviridea as well all capable of causing meningitis/meningioencephalitis.

Bacterial meningitis (cue scary music) is the one you hear all the fear about in popular media. Bacterial meningitis is very serious and the natural history of bacterial meningitis without medical intervention is.....death. Every time. Unfortunately, sometimes even with treatment bacterial meningitis results in death.

There are lots of bacteria capable of causing meningitis but lets just go through the most common by age group. In Newborns (think 0-6 months of life) bacterial meningitis is most commonly caused by Group B strep (Streptococcus agalactiae)--which is why all preggo ladies are tested for it, E. coli and Listeria. All but the latter normally come from exposure during passage through the birth canal. The latter, Listeria, can actually cross the placenta as well.

In children the most common causes are Streptococcus pneumonia (also the most common cause of pneumonia), Neisseria meningitidis (meningiococcus) and Haemophilus influenza capsular type B (which we thankfully don't see much of anymore in developed nations because of the HiB vaccine--go ahead insert your rant about vaccines here). That distribution stays about the same throughout adult with meningiococcus taking the lead for a while in early adult life (20s); more on meningiococcus in a minute. As you get to 60s and 70s you start to get more 'exotic' bacteria showing up like gram negative rods (think E. coli, klebsiella etc) and Listeria showing up again.

-Ill save fungi and aseptic for another day.

**You'll notice that:

1. You were wrong about exposure, you're exposed to lots of potential meningitis causing organisms everyday

2. ALL these infectious causes are actually contagious, not "1 of 2" as you claim.

Uhh no. More to the OP. The problem we've had before this isn't that we haven't had a meningiococcial vaccine, we have. What we haven't had though is a vaccine to capsular polysaccharide B.

Here's the quick and dirty on how vaccines work.

For you body to create immunity to an antigen you need two things. 1 you need a t cell response, t cells are then capable of priming b cells and creating long lasting immunity (read memory cells). 2 you need the b cell response, which is the antibody making arm of the humoral immune response. To mount this sequence of events you need protein antigen to active t cells. T cells aren't capable of 'priming' b cells without protein antigen. B cells are capable of making antibody to just polysaccharide (think sugars) by themselves, however you can't establish long last immunity in this way. We get around this by conjugating polysaccharide antigens to proteins to provide long lasting immunity.

The problem with some pathogenic bacteria, such as meningiococcus, is they contain polysaccharide (think sugars) coats which help them evade the immune system by making them harder to phagocytize and helps "hide" their proteins from the immune system. There are different serovars of bacteria (think of them kind like a subspecies) which have different capsular makeups from each other. Previously we have had meningiococcial vaccines against 4 of the 6 capsular serotypes that almost exclusively cause human disease (I believe there are actually 12 or 13 serotypes IIRC)--that is serovars A, C, Y and W.

Serogroup B has many antigenic similarities to human neuronal cells, which has made developing a vaccine against it prohibitive in the past. Which is unfortunate because meningiococcus B certainly causes its fair share of bacterial meningitis (not to mention other bad things like meningiococcial septicemia and Waterhouse-Friderichsen syndrome), however it appears Novartis has found a solution to this problem and developed a working vaccine.

By the way, vaccines are particularly profitable. If these pharma companies were so evil they wouldn't develop a vaccine against type B (which isn't going to make them lots of money), they would just come up with better abx which penetrate the meninges for treating meningiococcial meningitis.

I'm sorry but again, being an EMT and having an undergrad degree in biology (undergrad degrees in biology really don't teach you anything about medicine, come to think of it an undergrad degree in biology doesn't teach you all that much biology, it does serve as a jumping off point if you wanted to go get further education though) doesn't actually give any medical expertise at all. Really none.

So until you've seen someone literally decompensating on the hospital bed from bacterial meningitis with their blood pressure tanking in the crapper right before your eyes, peticheia popping up every time you walk in to the room and you end up coding them right there, despite you pumping **** loads of 3rd gen cephalosporins in them, blasting them with heavy ass broad specs like meropenem administered intrathecally, pressors, epi, IV fluid boluses etc--Then you can come talk about how much "medicine" you do and know.

*rolls eyes*

No ,but I see you're still trying oh so hard to convince everyone that I am ,with your incessant lack of any actual practical hands on knowledge ,sitting behind a computer screen,cutting and pasting .

I had to take a very unpleasant course of rafampin when I was exposed via a patient .

How does one get fungal meningitis again ?

Who need a vaccine for a meningitis that isn't contageous ?

And I wasn't an EMT .I was a NYC paraMEDIC.

I can do a few surgical proceedures ,give meds,intubate,read a 12 lead EKG , ,and we work in lieu of an MD ,hello.

My hospital was the first to give throbolytics in nyc because we were under the auspices of Dr Stephen Lynn.

I'm trained to do any internal line ,nasally intubate ,ans place a chest tube .

Google dr Lynn .Yes,Roosevelt hospital .

Knock yourself out.

I have to know to recognise a medical issue,and make a diagnosis ,before i give a med ,now dont I .

I'm a 911 first responder btw ,which I did after I left the service .

I have had more patients who were in cardiac arrest ,,that I and my partner recussitated ,who actually walked out of the hospital ,than any other team in Manhattan .

I have commendations from Gullianni ,Dinkins and mayor Koch ,for bravery ,valor ,and excellence ,in the line of duty .

*coughs*

Any meningitis you cannot catch,has nothing to do with this kind of vaccine,now does it,so i only noted ones that are of a concern to someone who would get the vaccination .... .

And isn't meningitis ,the IATROGENIC KIND ,what all those people got from that vaccine made up in massachutsets .so ya,those kinds don't need a vaccine .No need to note them ... ..again ,you cannot catch it from another person .No need to discuss them in light of a vaccine .Right ?

Some moron has to give you a shot of a medication to get that one,or you need a previous ongoing medical condition ....

ahem

I don't cut and paste,I type out what I know,because I don't have to google it or cite an article .

Oh and ,I have my masters in Chinese medicine . I also graduated from St Johns university with a degree in biology .

My first two years were pharmocology ,and I hated it,so I switched over to bio .

Just because I was a medic ,doesn't mean I don't have a degree *snip*

Edited by Saru
Removed personal insult

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The bubonic plague has already been cured, or rather, more or less successfully treated.

That's why you have to wonder why we need a vaccine for it .

http://www.californiality.com/2012/04/us-approves-black-plague-vaccine.html?m=1

Would appear they've been working on it since long before these two alleged cases in California .

Hmmmmm....

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080730140829.htm

Edited by Simbi Laveau

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*rolls eyes*

No ,but I see you're still trying oh so hard to convince everyone that I am ,with your incessant lack of any actual practical hands on knowledge ,sitting behind a computer screen,cutting and pasting .

I had to take a very unpleasant course of rafampin when I was exposed via a patient .

Actually as I've pointed out to you before, I'm not copying and pasting anything. You can copy bits of my text into Google and check if you'd like. Nor am I sitting around with an open book or webpage writing as read. Believe it or not, there are people in this world that have this knowledge from studying it. Being 2/3 of the way through the US medical licensing process that was all things I needed to know for medical boards. Any second year med student in the US with any hope of passing step 1 would be able to rattle off what I just did (and probably in more detail to boot as I'm now further removed from step 1). So please stop with the accusations that I am just copying and pasting this material and maybe refamiliarize yourself with the site rules.

How does one get fungal meningitis again ?

Are you asking because you would like to learn? I don't have time to cover the fungals like I did with bacteria at the moment. It is infectious meningitis and you can get it through exposures. Unlike bacterial and viral meningitis, when there is a fungal etiology it normally is not transmissible from person to person. It is more rare than bacterial or viral, but still happens in perfectly healthy people. We just had a M&M on a patient, non-immunosuppressed, with histoplasma meningitis.

Who need a vaccine for a meningitis that isn't contageous ?

Bacterial and viral meningitis IS contagious. Especially again, the two most common bacterial causes in adults: pneumococcus and meningiococcus. Hence you know, the whole vaccine thing. Also why it is important to get pneumococcal vaccines, especially in people immunosuppressed or who have trouble with encapsulated organisms.

And I wasn't an EMT .I was a NYC paraMEDIC.

I can do a few surgical proceedures ,give meds,intubate,read a 12 lead EKG , ,and we work in lieu of an MD ,hello.

My hospital was the first to give throbolytics in nyc because we were under the auspices of Dr Stephen Lynn.

I'm trained to do any internal line ,nasally intubate ,ans place a chest tube .

Google dr Lynn .Yes,Roosevelt hospital .

Knock yourself out.

I have to know to recognise a medical issue,and make a diagnosis ,before i give a med ,now dont I .

I'm a 911 first responder btw ,which I did after I left the service .

I have had more patients who were in cardiac arrest ,,that I and my partner recussitated ,who actually walked out of the hospital ,than any other team in Manhattan .

I have commendations from Gullianni ,Dinkins and mayor Koch ,for bravery ,valor ,and excellence ,in the line of duty .

That's great Simbi. And the world needs paramedics too they do an important job. I love talking call in the ER and working with paramedics and EMT on call in, all of ours are great guys and girls. Here's the rub though, you were a paramedic. Not a doctor. A paramedic is trained in basic life support. You don't learn about the pathophysiology of meningitis--Or heck even the pathophysiology of anything. You don't learn the art of the differential, you don't learn a lot of things about medicine. You learn life support through algorithms--While that is no doubt important, that certainly doesn't make you any more of an expert on vaccines, meningitis etc than some Joe off the street who didn't even graduate high school.

What you are trying, and failing to do, is make an argument from authority. The problem is you aren't credentialed nor an authority on what you are arguing about and the knowledge you've expressed thus far on the topic is indicative of someone who is uneducated about the subject. Sure you might know enough lingo to fool a layperson here and there, but to anyone who's done a more intensive study of the subject your ignorance shows through.

Any meningitis you cannot catch,has nothing to do with this kind of vaccine,now does it,so i only noted ones that are of a concern to someone who would get the vaccination .... .

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here, its kind of disjointed and abstract. I suspect you are trying to defend your position that there are only "2 kinds of meningitis". It would reflect much better on you, if you actually learned something here instead of persisting in trying to maintain the illusion that you knew what you were talking about. I'm sure people who like your posts would actually be more impressed that you were able to assimilate new information, than just seeing your double down on your ignorance of the subject.

Any type of medical practitioner, whether that be a paramedic or a doctor should know when they don't know and know when to ask. That's something I see on a regular basis at the hospitals I'm at and it is a pretty intensely graded area in the clinical years of medical training. I hope you are humble enough in real life and for people who are trusting you as "patients" to know when your out of your depth of knowledge and seek help and this charade here is part of your internets-persona. At least if you are this arrogant and cocksure about what you think you know of medicine in real life its hard to sue CAM practitioners (watch out though that medicolegal landscape is quickly changing and will be even more so in the near future)!!!

And isn't meningitis ,the IATROGENIC KIND ,what all those people got from that vaccine made up in massachutsets .so ya,those kinds don't need a vaccine .No need to note them ... ..again ,you cannot catch it from another person .No need to discuss them in light of a vaccine .Right ?

Some moron has to give you a shot of a medication to get that one,or you need a previous ongoing medical condition ....

Yes, it wasn't a vaccine though. It was lumbar steroid injections and the steroid was made a compounding pharmacy in MA. It looks at this point the problem was there sterility practices and contaminants of a couple different types of molds, but I haven't been following it that closely--You know the free time of a clinician and all :(

No this vaccine (again this is for serogroup B meningiococcus) wouldn't have helped. I'm not sure what your point is about that. As I pointed out previously both viral and bacterial meningitis are contagious and a real-life problem here in the US and in other parts of the world. Again as I pointed out there are about 3-4,000 meningiococcial meningitis infections each year with a dangerously high mortality rate. Meningiococcus can spread like wildfire through young adult populations living in tight quarters, like college dorm rooms or military barracks.

ahem

I don't cut and paste,I type out what I know,because I don't have to google it or cite an article .

That's great Simbi, neither do I. Perhaps it would behoove you though to research something before you write about it when it is a subject you really don't know about. It might reflect better on you.

Oh and ,I have my masters in Chinese medicine . I also graduated from St Johns university with a degree in biology .

My first two years were pharmocology ,and I hated it,so I switched over to bio .

Just because I was a medic ,doesn't mean I don't have a degree *snip*

Again that is great. I remember from our previous talks that you had an undergrad degree in biology. Good stuff that is one of my 3 undergraduate degrees as well. Again though, as an undergrad in biology you really don't learn much about this subject. An undergrad biology degree gives you the basics and introduction to many fields of biology. Most institutions you take 1 microbiology class--Never mind a medical microbiology class (which you take a full year of in medical school). You don't take pathology as an undergrad biology student (again you do in medical school, note not paramedic), nor gross anatomy (most undergrad biology programs in the US don't even require you to take human anatomy, only some type of vertebrate anatomy). You get an intro to physiology etc. The point is, none of that really qualifies you to be an authority on this subject so using that to "bolster" your argument about it is moot.

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Actually as I've pointed out to you before, I'm not copying and pasting anything. You can copy bits of my text into Google and check if you'd like. Nor am I sitting around with an open book or webpage writing as read. Believe it or not, there are people in this world that have this knowledge from studying it. Being 2/3 of the way through the US medical licensing process that was all things I needed to know for medical boards. Any second year med student in the US with any hope of passing step 1 would be able to rattle off what I just did (and probably in more detail to boot as I'm now further removed from step 1). So please stop with the accusations that I am just copying and pasting this material and maybe refamiliarize yourself with the site rules.

Are you asking because you would like to learn? I don't have time to cover the fungals like I did with bacteria at the moment. It is infectious meningitis and you can get it through exposures. Unlike bacterial and viral meningitis, when there is a fungal etiology it normally is not transmissible from person to person. It is more rare than bacterial or viral, but still happens in perfectly healthy people. We just had a M&M on a patient, non-immunosuppressed, with histoplasma meningitis.

Bacterial and viral meningitis IS contagious. Especially again, the two most common bacterial causes in adults: pneumococcus and meningiococcus. Hence you know, the whole vaccine thing. Also why it is important to get pneumococcal vaccines, especially in people immunosuppressed or who have trouble with encapsulated organisms.

That's great Simbi. And the world needs paramedics too they do an important job. I love talking call in the ER and working with paramedics and EMT on call in, all of ours are great guys and girls. Here's the rub though, you were a paramedic. Not a doctor. A paramedic is trained in basic life support. You don't learn about the pathophysiology of meningitis--Or heck even the pathophysiology of anything. You don't learn the art of the differential, you don't learn a lot of things about medicine. You learn life support through algorithms--While that is no doubt important, that certainly doesn't make you any more of an expert on vaccines, meningitis etc than some Joe off the street who didn't even graduate high school.

What you are trying, and failing to do, is make an argument from authority. The problem is you aren't credentialed nor an authority on what you are arguing about and the knowledge you've expressed thus far on the topic is indicative of someone who is uneducated about the subject. Sure you might know enough lingo to fool a layperson here and there, but to anyone who's done a more intensive study of the subject your ignorance shows through.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here, its kind of disjointed and abstract. I suspect you are trying to defend your position that there are only "2 kinds of meningitis". It would reflect much better on you, if you actually learned something here instead of persisting in trying to maintain the illusion that you knew what you were talking about. I'm sure people who like your posts would actually be more impressed that you were able to assimilate new information, than just seeing your double down on your ignorance of the subject.

Any type of medical practitioner, whether that be a paramedic or a doctor should know when they don't know and know when to ask. That's something I see on a regular basis at the hospitals I'm at and it is a pretty intensely graded area in the clinical years of medical training. I hope you are humble enough in real life and for people who are trusting you as "patients" to know when your out of your depth of knowledge and seek help and this charade here is part of your internets-persona. At least if you are this arrogant and cocksure about what you think you know of medicine in real life its hard to sue CAM practitioners (watch out though that medicolegal landscape is quickly changing and will be even more so in the near future)!!!

Yes, it wasn't a vaccine though. It was lumbar steroid injections and the steroid was made a compounding pharmacy in MA. It looks at this point the problem was there sterility practices and contaminants of a couple different types of molds, but I haven't been following it that closely--You know the free time of a clinician and all :(

No this vaccine (again this is for serogroup B meningiococcus) wouldn't have helped. I'm not sure what your point is about that. As I pointed out previously both viral and bacterial meningitis are contagious and a real-life problem here in the US and in other parts of the world. Again as I pointed out there are about 3-4,000 meningiococcial meningitis infections each year with a dangerously high mortality rate. Meningiococcus can spread like wildfire through young adult populations living in tight quarters, like college dorm rooms or military barracks.

That's great Simbi, neither do I. Perhaps it would behoove you though to research something before you write about it when it is a subject you really don't know about. It might reflect better on you.

Again that is great. I remember from our previous talks that you had an undergrad degree in biology. Good stuff that is one of my 3 undergraduate degrees as well. Again though, as an undergrad in biology you really don't learn much about this subject. An undergrad biology degree gives you the basics and introduction to many fields of biology. Most institutions you take 1 microbiology class--Never mind a medical microbiology class (which you take a full year of in medical school). You don't take pathology as an undergrad biology student (again you do in medical school, note not paramedic), nor gross anatomy (most undergrad biology programs in the US don't even require you to take human anatomy, only some type of vertebrate anatomy). You get an intro to physiology etc. The point is, none of that really qualifies you to be an authority on this subject so using that to "bolster" your argument about it is moot.

Most paramedics I know,can out diagnose an MD in a heartbeat. I've called anticholinergic overdose in the field,without any tests at ny disposal .

And a doctor of oriental medicine should be allowed to be called that .An OMD ,but the AMA in this country has a p***y fit because we steal all their patients .

I know acupuncturists that gross 400K a year .

So I'm a doctor ,and I almost went to medical school .i also have more actual medical knowledge than you .....not crap on a sheet some guy gave me because some shill up on high says its fact ,when its lies .

You sit here and preach at me, because you're in some sort of post graduate program ,run by the very shills trying to kill anyprogress in proper medicine,western or otherwise ,because think you know more than everyone else.

Guess what,you don't,and the moment you used the term CAM ,which is ONLY used by the MDs who hate us,I know exactly where you're coming from ,but I did before this.

Does everyone here know,that most professors teaching medical school ,own HUGE holdings in pharmacutical stocks .

Ergo,it behooves them to churn out pharm crazy baby doctors .All the Ivy league colleges especially .

So they instill in their students..... prescribe and prescribe poisons,while assuring the patient its safe .

Uh huh.

Not intererested in anything you have to say ,as you are a condescending stuck twank .You have been to me since the first time I posted in here,because you think you're better than everyone else ,because you look at flow charts on a computer screen all day.

Good luck in life ,because you will kill people with your beliefs .

I know I wont,and I never did as a medic either .

Oh and ,to get a degree in an acu college,its another FIVE YEARS,after your undergrad degree . You also need all the pre reqs a medical student does ,ans I did a one year program for paramedicine .

So I have ten years college total .Six years post graduate .

All of which are in the medical field .

An acupuncture board exam has four modules btw ,one of which is OSHA .

You would like to believe we are all hicks in the woods with no education ,but I would bet all my cats lives ,I could do exactly what you're doing now,and pass easily ,but you could never be a medic or pass an acupuncture college,both acu and herbs .

Edited by Simbi Laveau

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There are two forms of meningitis. One is not contageous,one is .One is more deadly than the other .

Not being funny, but even I know that there is more than 2 types of meningitis. And as we're chucking so-called 'credentials' around, I'd just like to point out that I learnt this in my first semester at university.

~

I wonder whether they'll add it to the list of routine vaccinations for children. I guess it's likely, as the Men C vacc is a part of the vaccination schedule for children (in the UK at least, not sure about the states), and that's less common than B.

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Most paramedics I know,can out diagnose an MD in a heartbeat. I've called anticholinergic overdose in the field,without any tests at ny disposal .

And a doctor of oriental medicine should be allowed to be called that .An OMD ,but the AMA in this country has a p***y fit because we steal all their patients .

I know acupuncturists that gross 400K a year .

Well that made me lol.

So I'm a doctor ,and I almost went to medical school .i also have more actual medical knowledge than you .....not crap on a sheet some guy gave me because some shill up on high says its fact ,when its lies .

No you're not. You can keep telling yourself your a doctor, but that simply isn't true. And you have no idea how much medical knowledge I have, but hey thanks for playing.

You sit here and preach at me, because you're in some sort of post graduate program ,run by the very shills trying to kill anyprogress in proper medicine,western or otherwise ,because think you know more than everyone else.

Oh come now, now your just starting to make this up as you go along! I didn't preach at you, I told you were wrong and ignorant about a subject. If you didn't have such hubris you might have realized that and educated yourself before trying to expatiate on the subject in such ill-informed fashion.

Guess what,you don't,and the moment you used the term CAM ,which is ONLY used by the MDs who hate us,I know exactly where you're coming from ,but I did before this.

Uh but that is what it is. Its complimentary and alternative medicine, not medicine. Again, you're not a doctor.

Does everyone here know,that most professors teaching medical school ,own HUGE holdings in pharmacutical stocks .

Ergo,it behooves them to churn out pharm crazy baby doctors .All the Ivy league colleges especially .

So they instill in their students..... prescribe and prescribe poisons,while assuring the patient its safe .

Again you're simply making stuff up. You have any idea how many faculty is at a medical school? And your going to claim that most of them "hold stock in pharmaceutical companies"? Considering I've been academia, I'm sure much longer than you have (by your own admission below), I'm gonna call bull****! Where is your evidence and if you can't provide it please recant your false claims.

Uh huh.

Not intererested in anything you have to say ,as you are a condescending stuck twank .You have been to me since the first time I posted in here,because you think you're better than everyone else ,because you look at flow charts on a computer screen all day.

Wow, lol. Where do you get this stuff? I look at flow charts on computer all day? No actually I was taking care of patients at the VA all day. I got off early today because we had didactics from 1-5 (which I skipped out of early around 2 :blush: )

Good luck in life ,because you will kill people with your beliefs .

I know I wont,and I never did as a medic either .

....You know you should really talk to someone about this, probably a professional.

Oh and ,to get a degree in an acu college,its another FIVE YEARS,after your undergrad degree . You also need all the pre reqs a medical student does ,ans I did a one year program for paramedicine .

So I have ten years college total .Six years post graduate .

All of which are in the medical field .

An acupuncture board exam has four modules btw ,one of which is OSHA .

You would like to believe we are all hicks in the woods with no education ,but I would bet all my cats lives ,I could do exactly what you're doing now,and pass easily ,but you could never be a medic or pass an acupuncture college,both acu and herbs .

Dudette, if 10 years of college is all you can muster than your dog lost this fight.....Right, I'm sure you could waltz right into any med school in the country with your bomber knowledge--What'd ya pull on the MCAT? I'd almost pay for you take a full length NBME S1 just for the giggles.

If I give you a USMLE question bank will you show us all your score? A person that thought that there were "two types" of meningitis....hilarity to ensue.

BTW, I appreciate how you've totally ceased to defend any of the prior comments you've made about the actual subject at hand and instead just decided to launch a barrel of ad homs. Sucks when someone on the internets is spot on huh? ^_^

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I wonder whether they'll add it to the list of routine vaccinations for children. I guess it's likely, as the Men C vacc is a part of the vaccination schedule for children (in the UK at least, not sure about the states), and that's less common than B.

I don't know enough about the epidemiology and prevalence of serogroup B in the UK to know. I know in the states, in young children its not a common cause of bacterial meningitis (see prior post with most common ones by age group). If it did come across the pond, I suspect it would be one they gave to high school kids before entering college and to recruits joining the military.

That said, in the UK if they are using a vaccine for serogroup C in kids, then I suspect B would be scheduled as well--Especially if, as you say, B is more common there in younger age groups. I cant recall off the top of my head if the UK was one of those places on that side of the globe with 20ish per 100,000k meningiococcus incidence rates or not.

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I think what would probably be more interesting and relevant to the topic at hand is how they conjugated it and with what. Also it would be interesting to see their B sacch titers a 6, 12 and 36 months out from vaccination. Anyone want a home work project and want to look into that :w00t: ? Do you lot over there across the pond have a website like www.clinicaltrials.gov you can look up clinical trial info at?

Edited by Copasetic

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I think what would probably be more interesting and relevant to the topic at hand is how they conjugated it and with what. Also it would be interesting to see their B sacch titers a 6, 12 and 36 months out from vaccination. Anyone want a home work project and want to look into that :w00t: ? Do you lot over there across the pond have a website like www.clinicaltrials.gov you can look up clinical trial info at?

Way out of my league. :yes:

Is that website for ongoing clinical trials, info on trials where the drugs have been approved, or...? Only asking after the whole hoo ha about companies withholding/misreporting trial data recently...

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