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1963

Father Gill's UnDebunkable Case?

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icon1.png Father Gill's UnDebunkable Case?

Hi all!

As a well confirmed member of the 'Pro-ETH-Club', and one that thoroughly enjoys seeing people on 'the other side of the fence' [so to speak] express just why they are of an opposing view of the veracity of some of my own preferred cases,.. I often have this nagging feeling of bewilderment about the reasons stated for the negative responses given with regards to the possibilities of certain testimonies being adequate proof of the probability of the ETH,...or even that I find often is the case that when what I consider pretty compelling evidence [usually in the form of reliable testimony] is presented by one of the excellent researchers that drop by these forums from time to time,[Karl 12 comes to mind] is almost always ignored by the 'heavy-sceptics' altogether!

Does this mean that there is no none-extraterrestrial explanation possible?...if so, then why are you still opposed to the ETH?

A case such as this that I am fairly sure that most people here will already be familiar with, is The weird and wonderful 1959 Father Gill Papua New Guinea Encounters....

It wasn’t hyperbole. There are 38 witnesses. No other entity case comes close to that number. Twenty-five signed their names to a detailed report. Five of them were teachers and three were medical assistants. There was agreement the object was circular, had a wide base, a narrow upper deck, a type of legs, four human figures, and a shaft of blue light which shone upwards into the sky at an angle of 45°. It was visible for hours....

here's a snippet of the main witness himself,..check him out and see if you think he is a snakeoil-salesman?

....And if that wasn't enough,..there is also independent corroboratory testimony that 'unearthly flying vehicles' were uninhibitedly parading around the vicinity at the time in question!

Though I admit that this case is a fairly-unusual one, with an unlikely scenario....it is also a case that has consistently rebuffed any kind of reasonable debunking!...and many have tried over the course of the 54 years or so since the event. And i'll even go so far as to say that it has made monkeys out of the high-priests of UFO-debunkery ....Phil Klass reckoned that the whole thing was just a story made up by Gill and corroborated by all of the other folk designed to wind up Father Crutwell, a friend of Gill's !
rotfl4.gif
...And Donald Menzel proclaimed that, he and all of the 37 other witnesses that were present along with Father Gill, as well as the other seven or so independent witnesses that I know about from other parts of the region had been foolish enough to have been fooled by 'VENUS', !...even though Father Gill mentioned that he could also see Venus at the time!...
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...and funniest of all was that Menzel asserts that the waving occupants of
Venus
the vehicle was "the witnesses own out of focus eyelashes!"...
:w00t:

The list of attempts to debunk this case goes on and on,...with silly explanations varying from 'moving planets' to 'mirages of boats' etc ...but the plain fact is that no other explanation, and please correct me if i'm wrong, but no matter the unfathomable motivations of operations being carried out by the occupants of those strange flying craft's that were witnessed by so many respectable witnesses on those three nights in Papua 1959 fits the scenario as good as the ETH!...
alien4.gif

Cheers.

"The discovery of truth is prevented more effectively not by the false

appearance of things present and which mislead into error, not directly

by weakness of the reasoning powers, but by preconceived opinion, by

prejudice." - Schopenhauer

GORT...KLAATU BARADA NIKTO.
Edited by 1963
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Well knowing how much you enjoy my company, I will just pose what I find quite an anomaly to the entire forum in hopes someone might be able to answer the conundrum I see with Father Gill's recollection.

Father Gill said:

A: Well, of course, the whole thing was most extraordinary; the fact that we saw what appeared to be humans beings on it, I think, is the important thing.

And I think it is too. Lying, money and fame take a back seat due to Fathers position without some pretty damning evidence, which as far as I know, does not exist. They are not going to factor here. But what exactly is the case supposed to be conveying? It is indeed technology that sound's far in advance of anything we have, yet he not only saw humans, but gestured Would an Alien know that a wave is a friendly gesture, and would an Alien repeat the gesture? Maybe? But no matter how we look at this, Father Gill states humans, so is this supposed to be an ET recollection, black ops, or is an alien joint venture being proposed here? It is not The Roswell claim, the dimensions and general description differ immensely, It is not any other crash that I can think of immediately, definitely not something like Kecksburg either, so I am not sure hat reverse engineering is an answer.

I think while this case may very well be as the title states, undebunkable, it is not proof of ET either. Like the Mystery Airship of 1896, it seems more of an OOPART possibly even from our own future than an alien. How would one put a definitive answer on something so bizarre? I do not thin turing to modern gods will expedite any conclusion.

I do not agree with the Phil Klass assessment of Venus and imagination, but Robert Schaffer looks at that angle with an interesting view:

In my book UFO Sightings, I summarize one reliable witness case of Witchcraft, taken from the 1689 edition of Saducismus Triumphatus by Joseph Glanvill, the J. Allen Hynek of the 17th Century. "In 1669, reports reached the Swedish king concerning a large-scale outbreak of witchcraft in the village of Mohra.... the devil had apparently drawn hundreds of the village's children into his grasp....The commissioners interviewed each of the children separately..'all of them, except some very little ones' told stories that were highly consistent." Forty-eight adults and children were executed for witchcraft, "the day being bright and glorious, and the sun shining, and some thousands of people being present at the spectacle." (As in Bernstein's Candide, "What a day, What a Day, for an Auto-da-Fe, what a sunny summer sky!")

More recently, we have seen dozens of children testifying to satanic molestation in Day Care centers, many of the claims simply impossible (involving elephants, jet planes, etc.). But people went to jail, anyway.

So I agree that the fact of this story being told in this manner is quite unusual, and that fact alone makes it worthy of study by psychologists. But it is not unprecedented, as there are similar instances of what appear to be mass delusions. It is certainly not evidence of ET, witchcraft, or any other extraordinary claim.

Again, I add the mystery airship of 1896. That one also involved plain old run of the mill humans. I would agree, this conundrum is fascinating, but so are tho other two examples from antiquity. We have a precedent for this general sort of mystery. As such, I really do not see ET as the only option, let alone an answer.

Q: Did you try to establish contact with the pilots of the

craft?

A: We did. As one of the men seemed to lean over as though over a rail and look down on us, I waved one hand overhead and the figure did the same as though a skipper on a boat waving to someone on a wharf. Couldn't see the rail but he seemed to lean over something with arms over it... could see him from just below waist up. Ananias, the teacher, waved both hands overhead and the two outside figures seemed to wave back - no doubt that movement made by arms was answered by the figures.

Q: What was the reaction by the native at signals?

A: Surprised and delighted. Small mission boys called out - everyone beckoned to invite the beings down but no audible responses....no expressions discernible on the face of the men - rather like players on a football field at night.

Hard to dismiss that men aren regularly mentioned. I expect Aliens to look like us, but I am not sure about exactly like us, and I do not think cultures and basic communications would be universal.

Edited by psyche101

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Well knowing how much you enjoy my company, I will just pose what I find quite an anomaly to the entire forum in hopes someone might be able to answer the conundrum I see with Father Gill's recollection.

Father Gill said:

And I think it is too. Lying, money and fame take a back seat due to Fathers position without some pretty damning evidence, which as far as I know, does not exist. They are not going to factor here. But what exactly is the case supposed to be conveying? It is indeed technology that sound's far in advance of anything we have, yet he not only saw humans, but gestured Would an Alien know that a wave is a friendly gesture, and would an Alien repeat the gesture? Maybe? But no matter how we look at this, Father Gill states humans, so is this supposed to be an ET recollection, black ops, or is an alien joint venture being proposed here? It is not The Roswell claim, the dimensions and general description differ immensely, It is not any other crash that I can think of immediately, definitely not something like Kecksburg either, so I am not sure hat reverse engineering is an answer.

I think while this case may very well be as the title states, undebunkable, it is not proof of ET either. Like the Mystery Airship of 1896, it seems more of an OOPART possibly even from our own future than an alien. How would one put a definitive answer on something so bizarre? I do not thin turing to modern gods will expedite any conclusion.

I do not agree with the Phil Klass assessment of Venus and imagination, but Robert Schaffer looks at that angle with an interesting view:

Again, I add the mystery airship of 1896. That one also involved plain old run of the mill humans. I would agree, this conundrum is fascinating, but so are tho other two examples from antiquity. We have a precedent for this general sort of mystery. As such, I really do not see ET as the only option, let alone an answer.

Hard to dismiss that men aren regularly mentioned. I expect Aliens to look like us, but I am not sure about exactly like us, and I do not think cultures and basic communications would be universal.

I don't think he specifically said it was human. it appeared to be human. Does a scarecrow or a mannequin appeared human? yes. Are they human? no. I think he just meant they got a head, neck, and arms, and behave like human(waving). I think you have your own bias just like you accused so many believers of having.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you think it could be something from the future?

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I don't think he specifically said it was human. it appeared to be human. Does a scarecrow or a mannequin appeared human? yes. Are they human? no. I think he just meant they got a head, neck, and arms, and behave like human(waving). I think you have your own bias just like you accused so many believers of having.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you think it could be something from the future?

Why state Human then? Not "Human Like"? And what about the gestures, waving and the like, not to mention that these aliens have no quarantine concerns and know our culture? PNG would be a quarantine nightmare for an alien because it is pretty untouched for the larger part of it. I can tell the difference between a mannequin and a scarecrow and a human at 100 meters. You honestly cannot?

No, you are not wrong, a future craft seems more plausible than spacecraft, seeming as the culture and appearance match, it seems like someone or something familiar with us and our customs. Not to mention the co-incidence of appearance. That just stikes me as a long shot between planets to tick all the boxes. Just conversations over Oceans can go horribly wrong, this strikes me as rather a large gap to be seemingly familiar with.

My impression is because of all aspects of the story, the craft seems to be the only aliens sounding aspect. Do you see any connection to something like ET in the description of the occupants, in any way? Father Gill and his witnesses did not seem to think so, once they received a friendly wave, they ended up going inside, and missed the rest of the show. Many gestures were communicated. I cannot shake that familiarity. I am not sure why you see it as insignificant? May I impress upon you to expand?

You can call it bias, I call it methodology. The process of elimination. As I mentioned, we have precedents. Surely you do not feel the mystery Airship of 1896 was an Alien craft? Yet another anomaly here, and it had humans onboard something ahead of it's time as well this sounds more like something we imagine as "Black Op's". It is a mystery sure, but so are the occupants.

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Why state Human then? Not "Human Like"? And what about the gestures, waving and the like, not to mention that these aliens have no quarantine concerns and know our culture? PNG would be a quarantine nightmare for an alien because it is pretty untouched for the larger part of it. I can tell the difference between a mannequin and a scarecrow and a human at 100 meters. You honestly cannot?

No, you are not wrong, a future craft seems more plausible than spacecraft, seeming as the culture and appearance match, it seems like someone or something familiar with us and our customs. Not to mention the co-incidence of appearance. That just stikes me as a long shot between planets to tick all the boxes. Just conversations over Oceans can go horribly wrong, this strikes me as rather a large gap to be seemingly familiar with.

My impression is because of all aspects of the story, the craft seems to be the only aliens sounding aspect. Do you see any connection to something like ET in the description of the occupants, in any way? Father Gill and his witnesses did not seem to think so, once they received a friendly wave, they ended up going inside, and missed the rest of the show. Many gestures were communicated. I cannot shake that familiarity. I am not sure why you see it as insignificant? May I impress upon you to expand?

You can call it bias, I call it methodology. The process of elimination. As I mentioned, we have precedents. Surely you do not feel the mystery Airship of 1896 was an Alien craft? Yet another anomaly here, and it had humans onboard something ahead of it's time as well this sounds more like something we imagine as "Black Op's". It is a mystery sure, but so are the occupants.

I think you are being too specific with words, Psyche. You seemed to attack every misspoken words you could find. Here an excerpt from the link 1963 provided. It indicated that he didn't get a clear look at the beings.

"I asked him whether he could see any details, such as the colour of their skins. He replied that they were too far away to see such details, but that he would say they were probably pale. As for the details of their bodies, all he could be sure of was they they had the outline of normal human beings from the waist up. Their legs were hidden by the sides of the craft. If wearing clothes they were very tight fitting."

I would think I can tell the difference between a human or a mannequin at 100 m away if it was during the day even if they were standing still. If they both stand still at night? then I'll probably need some movement to differentiate the two.

Why would he used "men" when addressing them instead of "unknown being"? To understand this, we have to ask ourselves, why do we address a male animal as "he" and not "it" or "a male gorilla"(as an example). Because we will likely pick words we often used. He said they "appeared human" because human are the best reference when making comparison with anything that moved like human. what other word could he used?

Quarantine concern? I am sure they're smart enough to know how. And why would you assumed they dont know anything about human culture?

I have never met a gorilla. However, I have read and watch enough to know I don't go up to them and shake their hand. If reports are true, then they've been here before. I am sure these "guys" would have learn enough about human to understand the basic behaviors.

A future craft is more plausible than spacecraft? this is where we differ. I think a space craft is way more plausible than time travelling human. What are the evidence for time travel other than hypothesis. Can you see what a mess it is for time travel? one thing affect another and on and on...this just seemed endless. doesn't seem logical. A spacecraft seemed to just involved one reality, one time line. how could this be less plausible?

You perplexed the hell out of me, Psyche. You seemed to have an aversion to ETs. Seriously? time travel is more plausible than a spaceship travelling to another planet? :no:

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Thanks 1963. I've read about the Fr. Gill case for years, but never heard or seen the Good Father telling of his experience in his own way.

I have to doubt that this was an instance of time travelers from our own future. It seems an overly-complicated explanation. First we have to assume that time travel from the future is possible, which is not at all clear. We must also assume that the paradoxes built into such time travel, which are as basic as logic, and cause and effect, can be ignored or overridden. Seems quite a lot to ask. All this in service of what? To explain an approximately human appearance, and the rudimentary knowledge needed to respond to a wave? Extraterrestrials might easily have learned enough about us from our television broadcasts to do *that*! It doesn't seem too extraordinary that a roughly human shape might occur on some other planet, with conditions not too dissimilar to our own. We see examples of convergent evolution in very different types of creatures right here on Earth. Why not throughout space? Perhaps such extraterrestrials are uniquely interested in us, because of what we have in common with them.

I don't think the comparisons to false memory syndrome or witch hysteria are likely to be very helpful in understanding this incident, either. Father Gill and his flock seem to have been remarkably relaxed about what was happening before them. There is no hint of hysteria or obsession. They even went along to evensong in the middle of their sighting! Is there anything here comparable to the coercion, prompting and hypnotic manipulation that has produced those regrettable cases of false memories? it seems not.

Edited by bison
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I think you are being too specific with words, Psyche. You seemed to attack every misspoken words you could find. Here an excerpt from the link 1963 provided. It indicated that he didn't get a clear look at the beings.

"I asked him whether he could see any details, such as the colour of their skins. He replied that they were too far away to see such details, but that he would say they were probably pale. As for the details of their bodies, all he could be sure of was they they had the outline of normal human beings from the waist up. Their legs were hidden by the sides of the craft. If wearing clothes they were very tight fitting."

Too specific with words? What else do we have to work with pray tell? From what I can see, conclusions are drawn from imagination. I am only trying to step that up a notch, and work with what we have, not what we imagine this case to be.

It is not attack, that is the believer mentality in you. It is evaluation. Did he say those words? Did he repeat them often? What does that mean if not a striking similarity identical to humans? Can other species exist that look just like humans? Of course! What makes you say that this is another species that looks like humans from another planet?

Please answer that. I am interested in your reply.

What about Father Gills words? What did he say that is completely different to my perplexing conundrum?

A: Well, of course, the whole thing was most extraordinary; the

fact that we saw what appeared to be humans beings on it, I

think, is the important thing.

He notes this as extraordinary too.

I take note of his words, and agree with him. It is an extraordinary aspect. Do you feel we should gloss over the terminology, and come to a conclusion without it?

I would think I can tell the difference between a human or a mannequin at 100 m away if it was during the day even if they were standing still. If they both stand still at night? then I'll probably need some movement to differentiate the two.

The craft was lit up, it was a bright white, which diminished to a yellow (Daylight colour to soft white, our everyday lighting works in these spectrums). So it was not "in the dark" If the mannequins had lights all around them, you would then see them, such as was the case here.

Why would he used "men" when addressing them instead of "unknown being"? To understand this, we have to ask ourselves, why do we address a male animal as "he" and not "it" or "a male gorilla"(as an example). Because we will likely pick words we often used. He said they "appeared human" because human are the best reference when making comparison with anything that moved like human. what other word could he used?

He could have used the words you just did. Appeared human. Also, humanoid, human like or even "look like us" would have been more of an indicator. This was not "like a human" he defined the sexes. Men. Yes, we use she or it, when familiar, as a general term with species we are specific with. We do not say, that is a male gorilla, as you say, we go "look at him" but Father Gill did use the word "men".

Quarantine concern? I am sure they're smart enough to know how. And why would you assumed they dont know anything about human culture?

That is a mighty big assumption, and much faith in Alien species. I think it is ludicrous that one can be smart enough to guard against the unknown. And I would consider an alien planet the unknown.

Why would they be aware of human culture? TV? That is not enough. We have enough trouble just communicating across seas, you think space would be a snap? What these "men" that Father Gill saw did was reciprocate a gesture with an expected reply, That indicates experience. I see that as another plus for being normal humans. What you are doing is assuming that some species has deciphered all out cultures, and acts appropriately in any given one. Personally, I think that is a big ask.

I have never met a gorilla. However, I have read and watch enough to know I don't go up to them and shake their hand. If reports are true, then they've been here before. I am sure these "guys" would have learn enough about human to understand the basic behaviors.

What? Because you believe some other report's you feel they support this report?

Does not work like that. If you go up to a Gorilla and he glares at you, and you glare back, it's not going to go well. That is essentially what these men did, Father Gill waved, they waved back, knowing it was a friendly gesture. Why do you think that basic behaviours can be observed, and simply then put into practise?

A future craft is more plausible than spacecraft? this is where we differ. I think a space craft is way more plausible than time travelling human. What are the evidence for time travel other than hypothesis. Can you see what a mess it is for time travel? one thing affect another and on and on...this just seemed endless. doesn't seem logical. A spacecraft seemed to just involved one reality, one time line. how could this be less plausible?

OK, fair enough, you are entitled to your own thoughts. As am I. But are you also saying that a spacecraft would have balconies or railings as described by Father Gill, with a viewing deck, or that such a design would be sensible for crossing space?

I reckon you could do with listening to some Jacques Vallee. He could blow your mind with this sort of stuff. Parallel universe, time travel dimensional alternative, he is more on top of the subject than anyone I could think of. You want to bend space time to travel the Universe but you cannot travel through part of the same medium? Interesting to say the least. I think you are contradicting yourself a bit there. Space is big. You need something special to get across it in a lifespan.

What evidence is the for exotic space travel? Such as would be required to get a tiny 35 foot craft to traverse space with occupants? The size suggest local travel, not interstellar.

What reports of astronomical events could possibly account for this craft leaving or entering the atmosphere When did it leave our solar system when did it enter it? You cannot tell me we do not know, hundreds of thousands of people from Government agencies and private satellites to someone who just bought a telescope are looking up all day every day. How did they miss this? To say they all did is logical? How? Spacecraft are supposed to go into space! Not one UFO ever has been tracked entering, or leaving the atmosphere, let alone the solar system!

You perplexed the hell out of me, Psyche. You seemed to have an aversion to ETs. Seriously? time travel is more plausible than a spaceship travelling to another planet? :no:

I have to say that same about you. Like the other believers already thinking "ohhh we got the skeptics this time!!" I see no more in your post other than a protest. What I want to know, is what is the actual Alien connection? Because from what I can see, it is assumption. The craft is out of place, I admit that, I cannot place a craft that can do what Father Gill described, but everything else about the story is very much an everyday event. So what I have done is break it down, the craft and the occupants, the occupants do not warrant ET do they? The craft is an anomaly, does that warrant ET does it? Using that logic, everything unidentified in the sky is from another planet, isn't it?

Do you understand time dilation? How would you describe that?

Instead of insisting I am wrong, can you tell me why ET is right? I understand why people would scream ET, the craft. I am pointing out that the craft is the only extraordinary aspect, such as the 1896 Airship Exhibited. How do we explain that event? That cannot be ET. What about the Witch claims I gave you? Eyewitnesses! We have a precedent, but what does it mean?

Edited by psyche101

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I have to doubt that this was an instance of time travelers from our own future. It seems an overly-complicated explanation. First we have to assume that time travel from the future is possible, which is not at all clear. We must also assume that the paradoxes built into such time travel, which are as basic as logic, and cause and effect, can be ignored or overridden. Seems quite a lot to ask.

But folding or warping space is no problems at all?

And 35 foot wide craft are more than sufficient to traverse solar systems? With several occupants?

I am not saying this IS time travel, I am saying the instance seem to fit that expectation better than an ET expectation, as we envisage such. I find the viewing platform, friendly gesture's and pure observation fot that which we expect form time travel. I just thought black ops might be stretching it here, and am looking at the actual aspects of the recollection. If time travelling to PNG for an American resident, perhaps paradoxes can be overridden. Do we even know if a Grandfather Paradox, of a rolling film paradox is more likely than each other, or even have an effect on our current timeline?

All this in service of what? To explain an approximately human appearance, and the rudimentary knowledge needed to respond to a wave?

Culture, is what you are broad brushing, and misunderstandings have led to war.

Not only that, but what about the ship sugests it is made for space? The saucer description? What about the railing? That is like putting fly screens on a submarine.

Extraterrestrials might easily have learned enough about us from our television broadcasts to do *that*! It doesn't seem too extraordinary that a roughly human shape might occur on some other planet, with conditions not too dissimilar to our own. We see examples of convergent evolution in very different types of creatures right here on Earth. Why not throughout space? Perhaps such extraterrestrials are uniquely interested in us, because of what we have in common with them.

Codswallop. As with the above example, if you watch a Gorilla and then go mirror it, you will get ripped to pieces. The shape and features are so identical that it is considered "one of us". That is conceivable I admit, but is it plausible that first contact is going to be a species that looks just like, and acts like us? No difference noticeable?

If commonality was of interest, why did they not land when invited than?

Is it because you are making up excuses as you go along? I am trying to make up nothing, time travel was a suggestion based on the fact that the occupants look like us, know our ways, and the craft seems built for observation, and it is too small to cross space. And it never went into space, So why is it a spaceship?

I don't think the comparisons to false memory syndrome or witch hysteria are likely to be very helpful in understanding this incident, either. Father Gill and his flock seem to have been remarkably relaxed about what was happening before them. There is no hint of hysteria or obsession. They even went along to evensong in the middle of their sighting! Is there anything here comparable to the coercion, prompting and hypnotic manipulation that has produced those regrettable cases of false memories? it seems not.

No, I agree, but it does make for some interesting precedents. Particularly, the 1896 Airship. It to was an out of place technological wonder, that did not exist, that humans were seen talking from. How do you explain that? I think the 1896 Airship is quite comparable to Father Gills claim.

What about you Bison? I know you do not particularly like me after pointing out that Mr Kimbler was not kosher, and heck, he has gone rather quiet hasn't he, but you talk to me when it suits you. Hey, we cannot all be believers you know. What other than the ship itself do you see here as extraordinary? Do you see no point in isolating that which is anomalous from the recollection and trying to understand if the everyday can lead us in a direction?

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Time travel, psyche? :unsure2:

This is one of my favoruite stories, it doesn't sound very much like an interstellar vehicle, to be sure, but I don't know why people always insist that UFOs must be interstellar craft. It seems much more probable to me that they'd use small landing craft for flying in atmospheres and/or landing, and leave the mother ship out there somewhere. Of course some of the aspects of this story, such as the fact that they appear to be able to stroll about in the open air, provide some question marks in themselves, but perhaps they'd only come out 'on deck' when at low speed & low altitude. Or perhaps it's a kind of airship, where they could stroll about in the open air.

Anyway, this is one of the stories that always please me, because even the most Skeptical Skeptic would have to work hard to make any of the regular off-the-shelf Explanations (ballons, Flares, lighthouses etc) fit, and that's always pleases me. :santa:

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Time travel, psyche? :unsure2:

You of all people! The one who tells me I do not use my imagination enough LOL. This is where I was going with this. If Jacques Vallee can consider it, then I can. I think he is a few steps in front of any "Believer" in this forum!

60GCAT: Your theories about UFOs and other "paranormal" phenomena involve your metaphor of the "informational universe," where time and space and whatever other dimensions there might be act as a kind of cosmic computer database. What do you mean by that?

Vallee: You can get a consistent representation of reality if you look at the world as a collection of events, or 'instances' (as the philosophy of Occasionalism did in the eleventh century), rather than as a collection of material objects moving in 3-dimensional space as time flows. In virtual reality, of course, you can't tell the difference. In the real world information and energy are actually the same physical quantity. In a universe viewed as 'informational events' you should expect coincidences, telepathy, time travel, multiple realities--all those things that seem impossible in the 4-D energy universe. To me that's why puzzles like UFOs are interesting. I don't have a personal theory to "explain" them, but I see them as an opportunity to pose new questions. If it's true that information resides in the questions we ask, coming up with novel problems may be more important than having answers, at this stage of our very limited understanding of the universe.

LINK

You guys are all acting like I am saying this is the answer. I guess most expect this from a skeptic? I threw it out there, and people have picked up on it like a dog with a bone, Do you lot prefer a skeptic stays within expected guidelines? Or may I call it as I see it? I( am posing a question, this looks like humans on a vehicle that appears to exceed out technology. I seem to be considered a Heretic myself for simply repeating the actual witnesses description.

This is one of my favoruite stories, it doesn't sound very much like an interstellar vehicle, to be sure, but I don't know why people always insist that UFOs must be interstellar craft. It seems much more probable to me that they'd use small landing craft for flying in atmospheres and/or landing, and leave the mother ship out there somewhere. Of course some of the aspects of this story, such as the fact that they appear to be able to stroll about in the open air, provide some question marks in themselves, but perhaps they'd only come out 'on deck' when at low speed & low altitude. Or perhaps it's a kind of airship, where they could stroll about in the open air.

It does not sound like an Interstellar vehicle at all, it sounds like an observation vehicle hence my comment. What suggests alien? The craft, not the occupants isn't it. If say the same bunch of beings were working on somthing that the Father could not makle out, and could be anchored to the ground, would this still be considered an Alien claim?

Why does everyone insist this is a spaceship? It has no features a spaceship would have, and with the viewing deck, I cannot see it as a scout ship, as per your favourite explain-all. Balconies/railings on a spaceship are nonsense. Scout ship indeed! Bet those decks are something of a bother on every planet in the solar system expect Earth!

Anyway, this is one of the stories that always please me, because even the most Skeptical Skeptic would have to work hard to make any of the regular off-the-shelf Explanations (ballons, Flares, lighthouses etc) fit, and that's always pleases me. :santa:

I had expected more from you! This is believer mentality! Lets try and hurt the skeptics, so we can feel better about the bruises from a debate! Pretty ordinary mate. I never picked you as a vindictive type. But I have been wrong about you before I guess. I would have thought such below you with your bickering comments.

Can you tell me why this vehicle IS a spaceship? That is all I am asking, and it is upsetting you lot a great deal isn't it! Why is that???? You people tell me it is easy to harness the power of the sun, and warp space-time to cross space, and that Aliens are surely doing it all over the shop, but you say that bending part of that medium for time travel is impossible hey? I honestly would not consider that very open minded, nor logical.

I will ask you, what would you describe time dilation as? Is that a concept you accept?

Edited by psyche101

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Who's trying to say it was a Spaceship? I said it wouldn't make a very good spaceship, didn't I? It certainly sounds more like something operated by Humans. Anyway, the reference to Skeptics was only a gentle wind-up, there should be no need for anyone to take offence. I was merely saying that, unless the good Father and his colleagues were colluding in an eleborate wind-up, there would seem to be little room for doubt that it was some kind of flying device, and that attempts to explain it as a misapprehension of something else seem a bit of a stretch. :santa:

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Who's trying to say it was a Spaceship? I said it wouldn't make a very good spaceship, didn't I?

Personally I wouldn't draw a conclusion on that either way. As much as I like Vallee's work, I do sometimes think that some of these alternative thinkers try and over complicate things, create an even bigger mystery within an initial mystery. I have no idea what an alien craft 'should' look like, how it should behave, whether it could have decks or not, how it's occupants interact with us, what they know about us. We (humans) have not got to the stage of being able to send a craft across the voids of space, with occupants, and if we ever do then I can't see our current method of sending hardware into space as being the way we do it. So if we can't do it yet, have no benchmarks of what is needed, and what is capable for anything that could do this, then i'm not inclined to rule spaceships in or out.

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Who's trying to say it was a Spaceship? I said it wouldn't make a very good spaceship, didn't I? It certainly sounds more like something operated by Humans. Anyway, the reference to Skeptics was only a gentle wind-up, there should be no need for anyone to take offence. I was merely saying that, unless the good Father and his colleagues were colluding in an eleborate wind-up, there would seem to be little room for doubt that it was some kind of flying device, and that attempts to explain it as a misapprehension of something else seem a bit of a stretch. :santa:

My apologies, I thought you were when you said:

It seems much more probable to me that they'd use small landing craft for flying in atmospheres and/or landing

That you were referring to this particular craft. I just do now know why people reject time travel, but accept space travel, which if traveling at required speed, would be subject to time dilation, and therefore time travel as well. I am not saying it is the answer, not by a long shot, but looking for instances whereby humans might have access to an advanced vehicle. Mainly the 1896 Airship is a big inspiration. it seems to also have human traveling in a machine that was before it's time. I guess it could also be mad scientists working for Skunkworks or something! I just think the recollection could be pulled apart a bit.

Sorry if I am tense, it has been the end of a long and trying day, I think I'll just sign off and go have a Scotch. I was hoping this might give me some relief, but I do not think I am in the right frame of mind. Anyhoo, there is my thoughts up there, have at them, all I ask is a well thought out response. I figure it is a starting point. Reading your post back too, I think I read it wrong the first time. Sorry about that.

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Personally I wouldn't draw a conclusion on that either way. As much as I like Vallee's work, I do sometimes think that some of these alternative thinkers try and over complicate things, create an even bigger mystery within an initial mystery. I have no idea what an alien craft 'should' look like, how it should behave, whether it could have decks or not, how it's occupants interact with us, what they know about us. We (humans) have not got to the stage of being able to send a craft across the voids of space, with occupants, and if we ever do then I can't see our current method of sending hardware into space as being the way we do it. So if we can't do it yet, have no benchmarks of what is needed, and what is capable for anything that could do this, then i'm not inclined to rule spaceships in or out.

I am not drawing conclusions, not by a long shot. Time travel was a suggestion, and nothing more. It seems an instance whereby human beings would have access to an advanced craft, and this tale seems to old to be black ops, we do not see this sort of technology today, not in the pipeline. If anyone has another suggestion whereby humans have access to advanced tech, I am all ears.

What I do see is an illogical ship for crossing space as we know it. It is not big enough to harness the energy of the sun, it has viewing decks, and the description of Human Beings is used frequently. The craft never went to space by any account, and I know of no celestial event at the time that could be the craft.

What I am really asking, is why is ET a candidate? It is only the craft is it not? Therefore, can we not break the story down and try to make sense of each piece as we know it, with what we have? Time travel might be completely impossible, but so might be bending space. We have a description of Human Beings, we have a craft that is small, and seems made for viewing. It's propulsion is the question is it not? Should that aspect not be a focus of any attempt to resolve the conundrum? Isolate the anomaly and try to work with that?

Edited by psyche101

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I am not drawing conclusions, not by a long shot. Time travel was a suggestion, and nothing more. It seems an instance whereby human beings would have access to an advanced craft, and this tale seems to old to be black ops, we do not see this sort of technology today, not in the pipeline. If anyone has another suggestion whereby humans have access to advanced tech, I am all ears.

What I do see is an illogical ship for crossing space as we know it. It is not big enough to harness the energy of the sun, it has viewing decks, and the description of Human Beings is used frequently. The craft never went to space by any account, and I know of no celestial event at the time that could be the craft.

What I am really asking, is why is ET a candidate? It is only the craft is it not? Therefore, can we not break the story down and try to make sense of each piece as we know it, with what we have? Time travel might be completely impossible, but so might be bending space. We have a description of Human Beings, we have a craft that is small, and seems made for viewing. It's propulsion is the question is it not? Should that aspect not be a focus of any attempt to resolve the conundrum? Isolate the anomaly and try to work with that?

Oh I wasn't implying you was making a conclusion either way - I was just saying that I see nothing in this case to limit where it's origin might be from. My point was more along the lines that from the little amount of detail we have, all of it lays in line with humans, but if that explanation is lacking and there needs to be a more extreme explanation then I don't see the reasons given for favouring one scenario over another as being particularly convincing - time travel or ET both needs leaps of understanding to bridge the gaps and make this case fit. If we are exploring other possibilities then making assumptions about what is possible with an ET craft, or why it would be designed a certain way seems to be jumping the gun.

We have nothing to go in knowing how a craft would look like or behave (a craft capable of carrying intelligent life across the voids of space I mean)...if we can't do it, how can we use that lack of knowledge to rule in or out how something else might achieve it?

Edited by Sky Scanner
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Our old friend, the Secret Military Project has of course been put forward for this, something like a hovering platform might be very useful for use in jungles, and while there might be some grounds for suggesting that if there was just one person on it, wearing a flying suit & helmet and what you'd expect, I think the number of peopel, the reports of what they looked like, and the fact that they seemed fairly friendly might count against it. Plus, if they were trying something like this out in 1959, why didn't they make use of it in 'Nam just a few years later, when it would have been just the job and a lot more discreet than all those noisy Choppers?

Not to mention this "When it finally departed at 9.30, Fr. Gill says it made a slight wavering movement, and then suddenly shot off at immense speed, changing colour to red and blue-green, and disappeared across the bay in the direction of Giwa in a fraction of a second.", so they'd have to be able to cope with some pretty significant G forces, so you'd expect them to be strapped into fight-style seats, mightn't you?

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Thanks 1963. I've read about the Fr. Gill case for years, but never heard or seen the Good Father telling of his experience in his own way.

I have to doubt that this was an instance of time travelers from our own future. It seems an overly-complicated explanation. First we have to assume that time travel from the future is possible, which is not at all clear. We must also assume that the paradoxes built into such time travel, which are as basic as logic, and cause and effect, can be ignored or overridden. Seems quite a lot to ask. All this in service of what? To explain an approximately human appearance, and the rudimentary knowledge needed to respond to a wave? Extraterrestrials might easily have learned enough about us from our television broadcasts to do *that*! It doesn't seem too extraordinary that a roughly human shape might occur on some other planet, with conditions not too dissimilar to our own. We see examples of convergent evolution in very different types of creatures right here on Earth. Why not throughout space? Perhaps such extraterrestrials are uniquely interested in us, because of what we have in common with them.

I don't think the comparisons to false memory syndrome or witch hysteria are likely to be very helpful in understanding this incident, either. Father Gill and his flock seem to have been remarkably relaxed about what was happening before them. There is no hint of hysteria or obsession. They even went along to evensong in the middle of their sighting! Is there anything here comparable to the coercion, prompting and hypnotic manipulation that has produced those regrettable cases of false memories? it seems not.

Hi Bison, and yes it is a extraordinary case that has held my attention for years too!.. :tu:

I came across the short video of Father Gill by accident when I was trying to find an alternative copy of this longer lecture-type film that has terrible audio quality throughout....[i'll post it anyway, in case you can do something with it]....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAx7UyOlUgc

I have to say that I am in agreement with your negative position on the "time-travellers" hypothesis also!...I have seen the possibilities of time travel as very dubious since I was a schoolboy. Partly because of the obvious reasons of if it were ever no matter how far into the future, a viable possibility to travel backwards in time...then where are all of 'our descendants' that would undoubtedly be prepared to interfere with the natural course of history?...Preventing the rise of Hitler, Stalin etc...or evacuating the people of Indonesia at around Christmastime 2004, or preventing the nuclear disaster's at Chernobyl or Fukushima etc...you know the type of thing that I mean!

I know that some supporters of the time travel hypothesis argue that there would be a policy of 'zero-interference' implemented to avoid the foreseeable disastrous Temporal Paradox. Quite sensible too, but then if we were to invent 'time machines' in the future, then surely the scale of mankind's future would be so vast that somewhere in that vastness of existence there would be some miscreant 'crackpot', 'despot' or other catastrophically 'bent-minded' individual or government that would be prepared to 'risk all' for personal gain!

And also, [just as a side note because I have no confidence in my own scientific reasoning's lol] ...since mulling over the possibilities of travelling back in time when I was just a boy, I have had this major stumbling block to the possibility of physically moving backward in time....and that is that in my reckoning there would be an impassable blocker in the way!...And that is the lack of time itself!.. or more precisely the point at where time stops! oh I am finding it hard to convey something that has seemed obvious in my mind from the beginning,,,imagine that the time machine, [though remaining still] is benignly moving forward in time [as it, and all the other objects in the cosmos are!] then is switched on by it's pilot, and put into 'reverse-time gear'...then when would it start to go back in time??...I mean, ...if it were to move [backwards] then what time will it reach the point where time itself stops and starts to run back?...if it has to stop travelling forward in time , then when it stops it is no longer in any 'time frame' so to speak . And so for that time machine [along with the pilot] is stuck in no man's land for ever...with no time or time-reference to move, and will be lost in a timeless void infinitely!

I probably should be able to explain my thoughts exponentially better than this, but I hope that you get my drift anyway buddy!...And please feel free to ameliorate or point out the glaring flaws in my childhood brainstorm. :wacko::w00t:

As for the point being made about Father Gill's referring to the crew of the flying saucer as... "men came out of the object"?...well. how did anyone expect a man that confesses to being a life-long sceptic of extraterrestrial beings to describe four figures that obviously resembled 'human figures' appearing from a strange 'flying-platform' kind of object that he stated thought was American technology?...of course it would be more suspicious to the continuing-validity of events if the man had noted that "four slimy aliens that had the basic shape of men" had emerged from the"flying saucer"!...But no sensationalism was involved, the man just reported events as they happened and as he witnessed them.!...And later in the report, the good Reverend said..." Beings Of Some Sort"!

And he also made it abundantly clear that the witnesses could not possibly know that the 'Men/Figures' were in fact either 'men' or 'human' in this part of his statement...."everyone beckoned to invite the beings down but no audible responses...no expressions discernible on the face of the men-rather like players on a football field at night."

Also the 'rail' point could be moot, as the reverend only said that he assumed that there was a rail!

His words..."one of the men seemed to lean over as though over a rail and look down on us. I waved one hand overhead and the figure did the same as though a skipper on a boat waving to someone on a wharf. Couldn't see the rail, but he seemed to lean over something with arms over it...could see him from just below waist up".

....http://www.ufocasebook.com/gillinterview.html

And for the waving back to the natives doubt?...that particular aspect of the ETH is by no means unique to the Papua case, here is a sample....

http://nawewtech.angelfire.com/gesture.html

and no!...I do not think that the people on top of the flying saucer would have been too wary of our savage natures to wave back to a group of the relatively primitive natives of the planet, from the safety of their lofty position!...Rather like myself always staring and growling at the lions at the zoo. lol.

...And finally,..who among us is qualified to state for a fact that no matter how the craft was described by Father Gill, it is impossible for the occupants to navigate the galaxy in it?...or indeed that the obvious answer to the difficulties of space travel is that the myriad of craft seen by millions of witnesses on Earth are no more than shuttles from the orbiting motherships!...or maybe large ships are not even required if some kind of 'star-trek type wormholes' are a reality to technically advanced civilisations ?

And there is always the intriguing possibility that the 'Visitors' do not have to travel from as far as we think?....

http://www.waterufo.net/

...imo , as for the where's and why's of these undoubted visitations ,the possibilities and speculations are endless!...but I fail to see how any sceptic/debunker can claim to be impressed by the lack of an alternative explanation to the ETH in a case as solid as this one! ...and still claim to be objectively open to all possibilities, but then suggest an even more outlandish scenario rather than just say ...maybe?

so just what do you think that Father Gill and all of those witnesses observed then Bison...ET?.. or something else?

Cheers buddy.

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...And finally,..who among us is qualified to state for a fact that no matter how the craft was described by Father Gill, it is impossible for the occupants to navigate the galaxy in it?...or indeed that the obvious answer to the difficulties of space travel is that the myriad of craft seen by millions of witnesses on Earth are no more than shuttles from the orbiting motherships!...or maybe large ships are not even required if some kind of 'star-trek type wormholes' are a reality to technically advanced civilisations ?

And there is always the intriguing possibility that the 'Visitors' do not have to travel from as far as we think?....

Cheers buddy.

Indeed, I think anyone risking a ship capable of interstellar flight in the atmosphere of a strange Planet (or even relatively close orbit, i.e. nearer than the Moon, say) would be pretty foolish, really.

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But folding or warping space is no problems at all?

And 35 foot wide craft are more than sufficient to traverse solar systems? With several occupants?

I am not saying this IS time travel, I am saying the instance seem to fit that expectation better than an ET expectation, as we envisage such. I find the viewing platform, friendly gesture's and pure observation fot that which we expect form time travel. I just thought black ops might be stretching it here, and am looking at the actual aspects of the recollection. If time travelling to PNG for an American resident, perhaps paradoxes can be overridden. Do we even know if a Grandfather Paradox, of a rolling film paradox is more likely than each other, or even have an effect on our current timeline?

Culture, is what you are broad brushing, and misunderstandings have led to war.

Not only that, but what about the ship sugests it is made for space? The saucer description? What about the railing? That is like putting fly screens on a submarine.

Codswallop. As with the above example, if you watch a Gorilla and then go mirror it, you will get ripped to pieces. The shape and features are so identical that it is considered "one of us". That is conceivable I admit, but is it plausible that first contact is going to be a species that looks just like, and acts like us? No difference noticeable?

If commonality was of interest, why did they not land when invited than?

Is it because you are making up excuses as you go along? I am trying to make up nothing, time travel was a suggestion based on the fact that the occupants look like us, know our ways, and the craft seems built for observation, and it is too small to cross space. And it never went into space, So why is it a spaceship?

No, I agree, but it does make for some interesting precedents. Particularly, the 1896 Airship. It to was an out of place technological wonder, that did not exist, that humans were seen talking from. How do you explain that? I think the 1896 Airship is quite comparable to Father Gills claim.

What about you Bison? I know you do not particularly like me after pointing out that Mr Kimbler was not kosher, and heck, he has gone rather quiet hasn't he, but you talk to me when it suits you. Hey, we cannot all be believers you know. What other than the ship itself do you see here as extraordinary? Do you see no point in isolating that which is anomalous from the recollection and trying to understand if the everyday can lead us in a direction?

If I had to choose between which was the more likely, a spacewarp or time travel, I'd have to say the former. NASA scientists are testing the physical basis of a space warp, and thinking seriously about the possibilities of its use for stellar space travel. Is any recognized scientist doing the same for time travel?

In any case, no extraordinary new physics discovery is actually necessary to travel to the stars. At a tenth the speed of light, it would still have been possible for elder civilizations in this galaxy to have filled it, long ago. The fact that this is not obvious to us could merely mean that extraterrestrials, like ourselves, do not populate and develop every corner of the territory that have reached.

Is a 35 foot ship too small to travel in deep space? I couldn't say, really; there are too many unknowns. The vehicle in the Gill case could have been a short range excursion craft launched from a larger one.

The ship is described as appearing about 2 &1//2 degrees across. Judging by the drawings made by the witnesses, the beings would have appeared proportionately quite small. It is not clear that details of their appearance, which would have classed them as humanoid, rather than human could have been perceived. Father Gill referred to them as 'men'. That term covers quite a lot of territory, really, even among humans. All adult males, from a two foot 'dwarf' to a seven foot Tutsi are called 'men'. The same term seems flexible enough to apply to basically humanoid beings, not of this Earth.

It doesn't seem too extraordinary that intelligent extraterrestrials could have learned enough about us to engage correctly in simple interactions with us. Dian Fossey and Jane Goodall managed to do this with gorillas and chimpanzees, using only very modest technology.

The 1896-97 'airship' cases seem to be a mixed bag. Some reports of a long, elliptical, lighted craft traveling through the air; some journalistic hoaxes, with details based on the expectations and preoccupations of the era.

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That is a mighty big assumption, and much faith in Alien species. I think it is ludicrous that one can be smart enough to guard against the unknown. And I would consider an alien planet the unknown.

Why would they be aware of human culture? TV? That is not enough. We have enough trouble just communicating across seas, you think space would be a snap? What these "men" that Father Gill saw did was reciprocate a gesture with an expected reply, That indicates experience. I see that as another plus for being normal humans. What you are doing is assuming that some species has deciphered all out cultures, and acts appropriately in any given one. Personally, I think that is a big ask.

Why wouldn't they be smart enough to guard against the unknown? You assumed they just stumbled upon the earth and it was their maiden voyage. Aren't there reports of UFOs even before this event? I don't think it's ludicrous to assume they could be from the same place. For example, before Neil Armstrong step foot on the Moon, don't you think NASA would take every precautions based on what they know about the Moon and space travel at that point? If us human can do so, why wouldn't a more technological advance race?

It would be a darn good start to be able to learn from another culture through "TV". That's a lot more than the many explorers who risked life and limbs to venture into the unknown of places such as the Amazon. Can you imagine an unknown tribe putting arrows into your body? I am sure they would love to get to know what to expect through "TV".

What? Because you believe some other report's you feel they support this report?

Does not work like that. If you go up to a Gorilla and he glares at you, and you glare back, it's not going to go well. That is essentially what these men did, Father Gill waved, they waved back, knowing it was a friendly gesture. Why do you think that basic behaviours can be observed, and simply then put into practise?

here's another of your assumption. you assumes they wouldn't know whether a gesture is friendly or not? If human scientists can learn to tell when an animal is about to attack or when they're relax through observations, you don't think a highly advanced race can? I can learn enough about Gorilla through reading and TV to know I would be a fool to get close to them so they can glare at me. And it's perfectly sensible to think previous report of UFOs are possible connection, it possible they're from the same place.

Don't you think Neil Armstrong would tell the crew of later Moon mission of what to be prepare for?

OK, fair enough, you are entitled to your own thoughts. As am I. But are you also saying that a spacecraft would have balconies or railings as described by Father Gill, with a viewing deck, or that such a design would be sensible for crossing space?

I reckon you could do with listening to some Jacques Vallee. He could blow your mind with this sort of stuff. Parallel universe, time travel dimensional alternative, he is more on top of the subject than anyone I could think of. You want to bend space time to travel the Universe but you cannot travel through part of the same medium? Interesting to say the least. I think you are contradicting yourself a bit there. Space is big. You need something special to get across it in a lifespan.

What evidence is the for exotic space travel? Such as would be required to get a tiny 35 foot craft to traverse space with occupants? The size suggest local travel, not interstellar.

What reports of astronomical events could possibly account for this craft leaving or entering the atmosphere When did it leave our solar system when did it enter it? You cannot tell me we do not know, hundreds of thousands of people from Government agencies and private satellites to someone who just bought a telescope are looking up all day every day. How did they miss this? To say they all did is logical? How? Spacecraft are supposed to go into space! Not one UFO ever has been tracked entering, or leaving the atmosphere, let alone the solar system!

I wouldn't know what it take to travel long distance in space or how such spaceships should look like. Father Gill did mention some sort of "mother ship". could they have traveled in it? and the smaller ships are use for close observation? maybe that's why they were designed with some sort of rail. Another earthly example, if someone goes on a safari, would they be some sort of modified vehicle with open top for better observation?

Not seeing whether it leave or enter the atmosphere is no indication that nothing had.

I have to say that same about you. Like the other believers already thinking "ohhh we got the skeptics this time!!" I see no more in your post other than a protest. What I want to know, is what is the actual Alien connection? Because from what I can see, it is assumption. The craft is out of place, I admit that, I cannot place a craft that can do what Father Gill described, but everything else about the story is very much an everyday event. So what I have done is break it down, the craft and the occupants, the occupants do not warrant ET do they? The craft is an anomaly, does that warrant ET does it? Using that logic, everything unidentified in the sky is from another planet, isn't it?

Do you understand time dilation? How would you describe that?

Instead of insisting I am wrong, can you tell me why ET is right? I understand why people would scream ET, the craft. I am pointing out that the craft is the only extraordinary aspect, such as the 1896 Airship Exhibited. How do we explain that event? That cannot be ET. What about the Witch claims I gave you? Eyewitnesses! We have a precedent, but what does it mean?

If the craft is extraordinary, you said it yourself, then why shouldn't the occupants be extraordinary also? As far as we know, the human race is the most advance on earth. But has human proven they can build such extraordinary craft? if not human, then what other advance earth specie could have done it? I really don't know if the 1896 airship or witch claims are connect.

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That is a mighty big assumption, and much faith in Alien species. I think it is ludicrous that one can be smart enough to guard against the unknown. And I would consider an alien planet the unknown.

Why would they be aware of human culture? TV? That is not enough. We have enough trouble just communicating across seas, you think space would be a snap? What these "men" that Father Gill saw did was reciprocate a gesture with an expected reply, That indicates experience. I see that as another plus for being normal humans. What you are doing is assuming that some species has deciphered all out cultures, and acts appropriately in any given one. Personally, I think that is a big ask.

Sorry, psyche, me again; this is what I always say, that if we were to discover a Planet that we could reach and which might potentially host Life, it would surely be sensible to study it carefully first and get to know the culture and how, as best you could, not to cause offence before taking the step of making official Contact, would it not? Rather than sending a message saying "here we are"?

And people also often say, in relation to, say, certain incidents in New Mexico for example, that ETs, if they were able toc ross the immeasurable distances of Space, would not possibly be foolish enough to make an error or have a technical hitch and crash. But as you say above, anything could happen if you're stepping into the Unknown, couldn't it.

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Too specific with words? What else do we have to work with pray tell? From what I can see, conclusions are drawn from imagination. I am only trying to step that up a notch, and work with what we have, not what we imagine this case to be.

It is not attack, that is the believer mentality in you. It is evaluation. Did he say those words? Did he repeat them often? What does that mean if not a striking similarity identical to humans? Can other species exist that look just like humans? Of course! What makes you say that this is another species that looks like humans from another planet?

Please answer that. I am interested in your reply.

What about Father Gills words? What did he say that is completely different to my perplexing conundrum?

He notes this as extraordinary too.

I take note of his words, and agree with him. It is an extraordinary aspect. Do you feel we should gloss over the terminology, and come to a conclusion without it?

The craft was lit up, it was a bright white, which diminished to a yellow (Daylight colour to soft white, our everyday lighting works in these spectrums). So it was not "in the dark" If the mannequins had lights all around them, you would then see them, such as was the case here.

He could have used the words you just did. Appeared human. Also, humanoid, human like or even "look like us" would have been more of an indicator. This was not "like a human" he defined the sexes. Men. Yes, we use she or it, when familiar, as a general term with species we are specific with. We do not say, that is a male gorilla, as you say, we go "look at him" but Father Gill did use the word "men".

Psyche, I think this could solve the conundrum regarding the observation of "human", "men". I have to admit, Father Gill and the other did say they saw "men". The most important question is, "ARE THOSE REALLY HUMAN?". Wouldn't it be possible for the beings to want to get close to the villagers for better observation without frightening them? Could they be in some sort of human costume?

Look at what Hollywood costume maker are able to do. They can create realistic looking alien suit. Imagine if they put a man in a Predator costume(great action movie), and send him back to the villagers. Would the villagers have described seeing a "monster" and would ran for their life? Hell I would. If human are able to create very realistic looking costume, I would expect even better from a more advanced race. Yes, human had been known to create animal costumes to get close to them without frighten them. Why wouldn't a more advanced race thought of it?

Again, what is more plausible? ETs can get here or time travelling human?

What is more plausible? ETs can make themselves "appeared human" or time travelling human?

What is proven? Human can create realistic costume or time travelling human?

Didn't the skeptics always said, "the simplest explanation is the best"? Well, time travelling is too complex for me, costumes seemed much, much simpler. i can go to a store and buy an alien costume. If I have much more money, I could hire Hollywood artists to create much better one. Even if I am the richest man in the world, there's no way I could get a time machine.

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Oh I wasn't implying you was making a conclusion either way - I was just saying that I see nothing in this case to limit where it's origin might be from. My point was more along the lines that from the little amount of detail we have, all of it lays in line with humans, but if that explanation is lacking and there needs to be a more extreme explanation then I don't see the reasons given for favouring one scenario over another as being particularly convincing - time travel or ET both needs leaps of understanding to bridge the gaps and make this case fit. If we are exploring other possibilities then making assumptions about what is possible with an ET craft, or why it would be designed a certain way seems to be jumping the gun.

OK, Thank's.

I just find the fact that we have one qualifiable component significant and for the purposes of evaluation, I feel it is a good idea to at least begin by separating the components we can recognise and focusing on what might be solvable. I see nobody has put forth any other ideal than alien, but as you say above, no conclusions can be drawn, yet only one possibility is being entertained. It seems a bit of a narrow investigation to only consider one avenue. As you can see, even suggesting an alternative makes one a heretic.

We have nothing to go in knowing how a craft would look like or behave (a craft capable of carrying intelligent life across the voids of space I mean)...if we can't do it, how can we use that lack of knowledge to rule in or out how something else might achieve it?

Well you say above it is jumping the gun, but is not assuming ET also? The general consensus so for would suggest not. I do not feel we have a total lack of knowledge. We understand physics, we know Aliens have to obey the laws of physics just as we do, so why can we not apply simple assessments of what is suggested to be a flying craft? If ET, and some exotic propulsion system that re-writes aerodynamics, then nobody has a chance at even guessing at what the process might be, but with what we do know, we can at least look at basics, such as fly screens on a submarine, which one would thinks even an Alien might understand as mirth. I feel applying our parameters, and seeming as this is in our airspace, that does not seem unreasonable, to make a start. I am not sure that the subject is even worth discussing if the purpose is to ohh and ahh over a description.

Personally, I think that some just did not expect such "Gold" to be challenged so soon. I might have nothing, I understand that, but I feel at least I am trying to make a start on dissecting the case as opposed to leaving it behind glass.

I do not think Jacques Vallee would receive this from Hynek, whom these very same people revere. Well, I guess Vallee is considered a Heretic of UFOlogy.

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Our old friend, the Secret Military Project has of course been put forward for this, something like a hovering platform might be very useful for use in jungles, and while there might be some grounds for suggesting that if there was just one person on it, wearing a flying suit & helmet and what you'd expect, I think the number of peopel, the reports of what they looked like, and the fact that they seemed fairly friendly might count against it. Plus, if they were trying something like this out in 1959, why didn't they make use of it in 'Nam just a few years later, when it would have been just the job and a lot more discreet than all those noisy Choppers?

Well I have to agree, and that is why I suggested time travel as one possible alternative, I believe black ops covers a great deal of sightings, but I cannot see it fitting in with the Fathers description no matter how I look at it.

Not to mention this "When it finally departed at 9.30, Fr. Gill says it made a slight wavering movement, and then suddenly shot off at immense speed, changing colour to red and blue-green, and disappeared across the bay in the direction of Giwa in a fraction of a second.", so they'd have to be able to cope with some pretty significant G forces, so you'd expect them to be strapped into fight-style seats, mightn't you?

Exactly, but this is another conundrum that I feel should be separated and analysed for it's own merits. We have some quantifiable aspects, and some extremely bizarre ones. Just like the 1896 Airship. But heck, that never has been solved either.

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Indeed, I think anyone risking a ship capable of interstellar flight in the atmosphere of a strange Planet (or even relatively close orbit, i.e. nearer than the Moon, say) would be pretty foolish, really.

But that's the rub. You are suggesting that a mother ship or similar is nearby are you not? That is based on the craft itself, but where is the mother ship? I just do not believe that if some behemoth was in space near us that we would miss it.

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