Guest Posted January 23, 2013 #51 Share Posted January 23, 2013 (edited) No you're not free to do that because that is violating my freedom. So you're not even getting the basic concepts of freedom right. In a free market, you're free to buy something that someone else is free to sell. You arrive at a mutually amicable price to trade at. This kind of barter can be applied to everything, not just prices and goods, but time and any other resource. It's voluntarily sharing resources with others, not expecting magic cookie cutter answers from a federal department of bureaucrats who have no idea who you are. It's how you might share your grill with your neighbor to use his air tools to fix your car. How you carpool the neighbors' kids on your street to save gas money or work out a routine you can live better with. It's voluntarily running your life (without the force control a socialist needs) and there's a million examples of this. Deliberately stretching freedom to its ridiculous nth degree so to miss the pleasant reality of free markets (at least Americans still enjoy) is what's missing the point. many apparently free choices have consequences for others. Take the freedom to burn fossil fuels - these have consequences for climate which effects others freedoms and then there is the need to secure supply which creates conflicts. Few choices are free from a moral and ethical dimension - and this is where incentives and regulation of markets comes in. I used that example as a concrete one which highlights the moral and ethical dimension of all choices - in most situations the consequences and victims are not so obvious as my shooting example, but they exist all the same. Simple formulas, such as capitalism, seldom capture the real complexity of a situation and so are inadequate models on which to base social organisation. Br Cornelius Edited January 23, 2013 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamato Posted January 23, 2013 #52 Share Posted January 23, 2013 many apparently free choices have consequences for others. Take the freedom to burn fossil fuels - these have consequences for climate which effects others freedoms and then there is the need to secure supply which creates conflicts. Few choices are free from a moral and ethical dimension - and this is where incentives and regulation of markets comes in. I used that example as a concrete one which highlights the moral and ethical dimension of all choices - in most situations the consequences and victims are not so obvious as my shooting example, but they exist all the same. Simple formulas, such as capitalism, seldom capture the real complexity of a situation and so are inadequate models on which to base social organisation. Br Cornelius So because of climate change, you trust the State to make your decisions for you? The climate is no reason to turn on your own freedom! The biggest polluters on planet Earth are going to save the climate for us now? That's our job! People receive tremendous utility by burning fossil fuels. When the time comes that is no longer the case, they won't. The single largest consumer of energy on the planet and I'm going to run to them to tell me how to live my life and save the climate? http://ivn.us/2012/04/18/the-number-one-worst-polluter-on-earth-is-the-u-s-federal-government/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Order66 Posted January 23, 2013 #53 Share Posted January 23, 2013 I curse you! ... ... with income, wealth, health care and justice! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 23, 2013 #54 Share Posted January 23, 2013 So because of climate change, you trust the State to make your decisions for you? The climate is no reason to turn on your own freedom! The biggest polluters on planet Earth are going to save the climate for us now? That's our job! People receive tremendous utility by burning fossil fuels. When the time comes that is no longer the case, they won't. The single largest consumer of energy on the planet and I'm going to run to them to tell me how to live my life and save the climate? http://ivn.us/2012/0...ral-government/ I was pointing out that your simple moral perspective was not adequate to cope with the complexity of the real world. I do not necessarily trust the motives and actions of our Governments, but I certainly do not trust people with no other motive than profit to do a better job. Nothing we do at the moment seems adequate to see us safely into the future, and freeing up the markets to do more of the same, doesn't seem to me to be any kind of solution to any of the pressing problems we face. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onereaderone Posted January 23, 2013 #55 Share Posted January 23, 2013 it is pretty clear that what i say will not be heard , but lets see. money is a device for the collection of tax's . a capital is a archetectural device for the support of a roof.... 2) a capital is a platform you place a statue on . capitalism is the cult of greatness . the capital city , is the city where statues are raised , where you honor the great deeds , great thinkers , great success . to be a true capitalist , you must beleive in a god ( the specific god is not important ) because .... capitalism assumes that god does not make mistakes , and god made you . god made you with a greatness in mind specific to you , and you alone have the one greatness that the world needs... you personaly are great at one thing , and one thing only ...and you sux at everything else ! capitalism assumes that we have enought doctors , plumbers and electronic technicians if every one just follows their heart and does what they are designed to be by god . capitalism assumes that no one is equal to any one else ... we all are better than every one else at one thing , and one thing only ... and its your job to make every one else think that what you have is the si8ngle , most kool thing there is .... communism is for ants , and equals... where no one is any diffrent than any one else... and you are profoundly unimportant and replaceable ... you are disposable and of no importance... and suiside is a fine option if you do not fit in to the govermental system of standardize tests , and doing what your told by the agency of medication and standardized schooling. so shut up and keep your ideas to your self... capitalism assumes that no one is equal , so get over it ... no one is as good as you... if they play the game you invent... and they want you to play their game ( so you always lose !) . in the free world , your not going to be happy if you wait for the right path to show up... your path is your own , and frankly speaking... the better you are , the more likly n the path does not exsist yet .... your path is uniquely yours... no one has ever walked it , the only paths are those design'd by people who want you to walk it... so you will fail to win at a game they are masters at . in communism ... its a game where the top people crush the will and life out of the fools who follow the path of equality . the ussr did not fail , it was a glorius success at what equality for the mass's really means . the ussr was an ant hill for humans... only the intelect of an insect can tolarate the mindlessness of goverment run life. only a the great intelect of children and proffessional students who have no real world experiance can make communism work ... and only a person who knows nothing about real world systems can beleive in socailism . coin , or capital is a icon inscribed device for the collection of tax's ... because you can not collect tax's on hourly service , and barter is not a practical system for tax collection .... the value of coined-capital is that assigned by the needs of the rich to pay . currently , with in the united states ... the totaly money gained by income tax paid by the poorest 100 million tax payers... does not pay for the collection of the tax and record keeping ..... and if the employers costs are included the pooest 2/3 of tax payer , it actualy costs more that all the money collected . the richest top 5% of the population pay between 30% and 40% of all ... all govermental ... govermental expenses . then the only thing the goverment can do is stop stuff ... goverment stops activity ... the more money you give goverment... the more things it can stop ... this is a universal truth... in every country on earth , from the beginning of time... at every level .... goverment turns money into stopping stuff from happening ... ... nasa stopped people from getting jobs in other industrys... to work on space ... police stop drivers from speeding... god makes rivers.... goverments damn them 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamato Posted January 23, 2013 #56 Share Posted January 23, 2013 I was pointing out that your simple moral perspective was not adequate to cope with the complexity of the real world. I do not necessarily trust the motives and actions of our Governments, but I certainly do not trust people with no other motive than profit to do a better job. Nothing we do at the moment seems adequate to see us safely into the future, and freeing up the markets to do more of the same, doesn't seem to me to be any kind of solution to any of the pressing problems we face. Br Cornelius You do not necessarily trust the mass murdering mass polluting hypocrites of government and you certainly do not trust people? Maybe you just haven't met the right people in your life yet to learn that yes, you can actually trust people? Ebay and Amazon are some of the freest markets around, and these internet marketplaces aren't causing the pressing problems we face. Have some faith in freedom, Br. Let people be free to trade and live. If I want a Cuban cigar or a Persian rug, I should be free to make those purchase decisions. Not hobbled by know-it-alls from the bureau who assure me that because they don't politically agree with someone, I should lose my right to trade with them. When trade ends, war begins. I will not substitute the markets of freedom for the machines of tyranny. That is folly and will come to no good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Order66 Posted January 23, 2013 #57 Share Posted January 23, 2013 you personaly are great at one thing , and one thing only ...and you sux at everything else ! capitalism assumes that we have enought doctors , plumbers and electronic technicians if every one just follows their heart and does what they are designed to be by god . capitalism assumes that no one is equal to any one else ... we all are better than every one else at one thing , and one thing only ... and its your job to make every one else think that what you have is the si8ngle , most kool thing there is .... i don't agree with that, I think capitalism simply says that in a free market value is determined based on what people want and need and are willing to pay, and value is not dictated by the government. The government tries to social engineer and decide who/what is valuable, saying for example that green energy is valuable and coal is worthless, but in a free market where coal is cheap and in abundance, this really isn't the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 23, 2013 #58 Share Posted January 23, 2013 You do not necessarily trust the mass murdering mass polluting hypocrites of government and you certainly do not trust people? Maybe you just haven't met the right people in your life yet to learn that yes, you can actually trust people? Ebay and Amazon are some of the freest markets around, and these internet marketplaces aren't causing the pressing problems we face. Have some faith in freedom, Br. Let people be free to trade and live. If I want a Cuban cigar or a Persian rug, I should be free to make those purchase decisions. Not hobbled by know-it-alls from the bureau who assure me that because they don't politically agree with someone, I should lose my right to trade with them. When trade ends, war begins. I will not substitute the markets of freedom for the machines of tyranny. That is folly and will come to no good. Life is not all about the purchases we make ! Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamato Posted January 23, 2013 #59 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Life is not all about the purchases we make ! Br Cornelius Yes it is. It's about the purchases we make with our time. Hopefully we will be able to do that freely and not be force controlled by our masters. When we get so jaded and caught up about money and wealth envy, we might forget that we all have a normally distributed lifespan on this earth, and what we do with it is as much a purchase decision as a widget we buy with money. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onereaderone Posted January 23, 2013 #60 Share Posted January 23, 2013 upon the concepts of govermental systems , the single answer is not to do away with goverment ... the single best answer is to starve it . turn off the money. make it illegal for the lower 1/3 to pay any tax , levey , fine or fee's ... all crime is punishable by jail time.... if you want to start a business.. you just do it , they can't stop you . leave the middle 1/3 of tax payers as they are now , with a graduated scale .... but they pay the personel cost of all the diffrent levels of goverment.... from president to teller at the DMV... if you work for the goverment... the middle 100 million tax payers pay your salery .... the richest top 1/3 pay a straight percentage... no deductions , no charity , no write offs... when your in the top 1/3 , its worth it to spend the money to make sure you count what they make ... and lets get the fedaral goverment back to what it was designed to do... regulate state goverments .... and get them out of the business of social engineering . lets lower the fedaral budget to less than 1 billion dollors .... and if a state goverment can not manage a project... it doesn't happen... the fedaral goverment should be in the role of coordination of state goverment duplication of efforts for common goals ... not universal data base manigment of citizens tracking data , and universal criminal felony arrests to prevent gun ownership and limit voting roles to like minded persons . goverments kill their citizens ... of all gun deaths in every country on earth , since the invention of guns ... more than 10 to 1 goverments have killed their own citizens ... more than all the wars . it gets better , of those killed in wars , how meny civilians were killed by soldiers because they were not armed , and the soldiers took all they had... and then took their lives . in the streets of america , police kill 10 times what the gangs and the crazy medicated morons manage ... in your own city , when was the last time a police officer killed some one ... gun free ( fire) zones do little more than draw crazy medicated morons out of their hermit holes... so a goverment can disarm the honest people ... if islam armed the muslim girlat 10 years old and 12 years old... there would be fewer muslim men and more muslim virgins . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 23, 2013 #61 Share Posted January 23, 2013 (edited) Yes it is. It's about the purchases we make with our time. Hopefully we will be able to do that freely and not be force controlled by our masters. When we get so jaded and caught up about money and wealth envy, we might forget that we all have a normally distributed lifespan on this earth, and what we do with it is as much a purchase decision as a widget we buy with money. Not only is this wrong in of itself - life is far more than just a series of purchases. It also proceeds from the false notion that people are informed enough to make ethical decisions about their purchases to produce the best "Good" for society as a whole. Experience shows that this is blatantly not the case and will probably never be the case. Are you aware of what conditions were in effect at the point of extraction of of many of the rare earth metals on which you depend to make your purchases. i am almost certain that you do not know or care one jot what conditions prevailed - just so long as you AppleMac was the cheapest it could possibly be. Do you really care about the freedom of a mine worker - just so long as the essential components of your life are freely available at the lowest possible cost. Capitalism has no ethical or moral dimension. Br Cornelius Edited January 23, 2013 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onereaderone Posted January 23, 2013 #62 Share Posted January 23, 2013 when 37% of what i earn in wage is income tax , 20% is home , 30% is fixed costs.... 87% is spoken for ... tell me that i selling my life by the hour to a culture that demands 87% befor i have a decsion to make... and ..... capitalism did not do this... 17 trillion dollors did not do this... frankly speaking , houses can not legaly be buildt on anything but farm land , inside a city , its easier to have a parking lot than build a building ... i am an inventor ... i have at this very moment 25 inventions that i can not get marketed.... and 15 are regulated out of being done by law that has never seen a popular vote ... including a floating propeller system for ocean current electrical power genaration .... i can not get the hydrolic lines across the beach... because it would require " gate way " legislation that woul allow oil companys to bring gas on shore with out govermental limitations and regulation.... that cause the price of gas to be controlled . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamato Posted January 23, 2013 #63 Share Posted January 23, 2013 (edited) Not only is this wrong in of itself - life is far more than just a series of purchases. It also proceeds from the false notion that people are informed enough to make ethical decisions about their purchases to produce the best "Good" for society as a whole. Experience shows that this is blatantly not the case and will probably never be the case. Are you aware of what conditions were in effect at the point of extraction of of many of the rare earth metals on which you depend to make your purchases. i am almost certain that you do not know or care one jot what conditions prevailed - just so long as you AppleMac was the cheapest it could possibly be. Do you really care about the freedom of a mine worker - just so long as the essential components of your life are freely available at the lowest possible cost. Capitalism has no ethical or moral dimension. Br Cornelius Why do you "almost certainly" assign the worst of human nature to me because I believe in freedom? How do you know that I don't care about the environment? How do you know that I don't freely make ethical decisions in life? Are you typing on a computer? Yes, you are. So don't assign sins to me that you also commit yourself. Your socialism doesn't put you on a moral pedestal. Ethics and freedom aren't mutually exclusive. If you are any manner of true conservationist, you'll be a conservative like me. The root word of conservative is conserve. I live frugally. I don't consume more resources than I need. I conserve energy. I don't use heat in the winter. I rarely eat meat. I volunteer my time in my community to make it a better place to live. I haven't reproduced and polluted the planet with any more human beings. I defend dying ecosystems, destroyed habitats, and endangered species with my time, money and words. I know who I am. I don't need a lecture, and my freedom allows me not to merely meet the minimum standard set by the State that's always horribly inadequate, but aspire to my own higher standard that's dramatically superior. What do you do to help the environment? [media=] [/media] Edited January 23, 2013 by Yamato 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onereaderone Posted January 23, 2013 #64 Share Posted January 23, 2013 the one thing that is truth for me is... there is no common good. people who say there is a govermental common good... are themselves mindless of the great harm they do... the earth saviors are in fact saving the tree farms in oregon... so that the virgin forests of brazil and asia will clear cut ... monoculture tree farms that have more in common with a lawn than forest are being saved , ecofreaks chain them selves to gates and cry for the life of a tree... so that a japanese company can clear cut amazon forests . save the beach from a hydrolic line , so that coal fired plants can stay profitable ... did i mention that the fedaral level lobby in logging will back off if the logging companys pay money and support unrelated causes like public radio and wind power subsidys... ecofreaks of the world unite... its a protection wracket... freemarkets can not stay free when goverments controll them ... the problem is not greed... the problem is smart rich people can crush free markets with govermental regulation , and no goverment has ever done other wise and as for the mine workers , never forget that these workers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onereaderone Posted January 23, 2013 #65 Share Posted January 23, 2013 never for get that these mine workers have been created by anti biotics and better living conditions... people are not dieing ... children are not dieing senselessly , there are more of us... because poor people are living better lives ... and the mine workers need jobs... any job... to live even slightly better ... so... either you want people that you do not see to die , and more children to go back to the senseless deaths of the 1920's... or... or.... what is it you want... a better mindless ant hill , where ware house workers manage people who are brainless , and need your superior thinking... ah , the master race... been there done that... its not that great an idea... you need to make me understand what you like about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 23, 2013 #66 Share Posted January 23, 2013 (edited) Why do you "almost certainly" assign the worst of human nature to me because I believe in freedom? How do you know that I don't care about the environment? How do you know that I don't freely make ethical decisions in life? Are you typing on a computer? Yes, you are. So don't assign sins to me that you also commit yourself. Your socialism doesn't put you on a moral pedestal. Ethics and freedom aren't mutually exclusive. If you are any manner of true conservationist, you'll be a conservative like me. The root word of conservative is conserve. I live frugally. I don't consume more resources than I need. I conserve energy. I don't use heat in the winter. I rarely eat meat. I volunteer my time in my community to make it a better place to live. I haven't reproduced and polluted the planet with any more human beings. I defend dying ecosystems, destroyed habitats, and endangered species with my time, money and words. I know who I am. I don't need a lecture, and my freedom allows me not to merely meet the minimum standard set by the State that's always horribly inadequate, but aspire to my own higher standard that's dramatically superior. What do you do to help the environment? [media=] [/media] I am not attributing anything specifically to you - I am pointing out a specific shortcoming of the principles on which you base your life. People who believe in simple absolutist principles scare the **** out of me - as dangerous as the Taliban in my opinion and cut from the same cloth. Br Cornelius Edited January 23, 2013 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHO U KIDDIN Posted January 23, 2013 #67 Share Posted January 23, 2013 What may have started out as 'free enterprise capitalism' has today morphed into 'international corporatism'. This model of corporate capitalism has succeeded in hijacking people's elected governments all over the world in order to serve its own financial self interests at the expense of the common people. These same multi-national corporate elites are destroying our world's environment and its peoples for the sake of profit and dividends. This 'Brave New World' corpocracy has no sympathy for the 'back-yard' inventors or the 'mom-and-pop' entreprenuers, they will eliminate all who stand to threaten their financial and political gains, these entities are models of mega-monopolies and not 'free enterprise capitalism'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenHawk Posted January 23, 2013 #68 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Okay, those 'who built the business', or those that inherited it?'. I have great faith in the self made entrepeneur. And? If you inherit it, there are two things that will happen. You will either continue to build up the business or sell it to someone else that will. OR you will squander the wealth and assets and the business will be no more. Just as in nature, the stronger survives and the weaker ones die off. The weaker ones die off keeping the overall health of the system strong. Just because one inherits something doesn't mean that they deserve it or not. The same proposition applies to them. But ultimately it is their choice to do with as they will. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onereaderone Posted January 23, 2013 #69 Share Posted January 23, 2013 in the real world , darwin's ideas do not pan out ... the genaralist genaraly dies... the specialist is rewarded. the more special you are the more likly your going to be rewarded . strong is not always the best ... greatness in what ever the feild is the trick....having a tactic or a simplier form... as a tactic... i do not have to out run the tiger... i just need to out run you . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenHawk Posted January 23, 2013 #70 Share Posted January 23, 2013 I find this extremely amusing. I will assume that you will be corrected in these 5 pages of posts… 2. Extremes of Wealth The combined net worth of the world's 250 richest individuals is more than the total annual living expenses of almost half the world - three billion people. Did it ever occur to you that those nations that have concentrations of these wealthy, the trickledown effect provides a better quality of life for that nation's poor, especially the non Socialistic ones? The poor in America live better lives than 80% of the world. That's not a bad safety net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jugoso Posted January 23, 2013 Author #71 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Capitalism is a cult. It is devoted to the ideals of privatization over the common good, profit over social needs, and control by a small group of people who defy the public's will. Capitalism is an economic theory. It is devoted to the ideals of private property for the common good, profit for social needs, and control by a nation of free individuals who in their own measure determine the public's will. What if I prefced the statement my statement with Capatalism today......., Theorys are fine but I´n discussing what capatalism has morphed into....maximizing individual profits at any and all costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onereaderone Posted January 23, 2013 #72 Share Posted January 23, 2013 the perfect answer to corprate giant companys is unions... currently unions are so politicaly correct , they have lost their teeth ... and are run by whimps and milk drinking school girls .... you will know the men have taken off their dress and have a real voice when they take on microsoft and unionize software programmers . untill school teachers bankrupt all the school systems and distroy public schools will our goverment rage out of control in spending and social welfare... national teachers assoc . must brake the back of public school systems befor learning can once again become valuable .... that is the reason for the school shooting.... the crazys medicated morons feel the blood in the water and are seeking out the gun free (fire) zones .... because it is the place where the goverment power is ... in the public scxhools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenHawk Posted January 23, 2013 #73 Share Posted January 23, 2013 in the real world , darwin's ideas do not pan out ... the genaralist genaraly dies... the specialist is rewarded. the more special you are the more likly your going to be rewarded . But isn't that Darwinism? Survival of the fittest? Or in this case, survival of the specialist… strong is not always the best ... greatness in what ever the feild is the trick....having a tactic or a simplier form... That's correct. You just need something special that works but then isn't that being the best in the field? as a tactic... i do not have to out run the tiger... i just need to out run you . But if the tiger knows that the one leading the pack has the better meet, he'll swat the slower ones to the side to catch the leader. He'll then know that he can catch the others whenever he wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jugoso Posted January 23, 2013 Author #74 Share Posted January 23, 2013 I find this extremely amusing. I will assume that you will be corrected in these 5 pages of posts… Did it ever occur to you that those nations that have concentrations of these wealthy, the trickledown effect provides a better quality of life for that nation's poor, especially the non Socialistic ones? The poor in America live better lives than 80% of the world. That's not a bad safety net. Trickledown economics!! America has built its position off of the exploitation of individuals and countries since its inception Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted January 23, 2013 #75 Share Posted January 23, 2013 The pursuit of wealth is one of the most important ways people get motivated to go out there and work their butts off, take risks, invent things, network with others, and so on. Why? That is a good question, as we all know that wealth is not morally superior nor even a route to happiness, although it can relieve many of life's troubles. We do it because of face, pride, ego, and, of course, greed. So capitalism taps into that human desire to provide goods and services, and it actually seems to work, although it has evils and limits. It can lead to slavery and exploitation, to despoiling the environment, to monopolism and its associated evils of market apportionment and artificially created shortage. Putting the state in control of the enterprises is really another form of capitalism, but with the idea that if profits go to the public and not to individuals, these problems can be avoided. Unfortunately doing this removes the original motivation and you end up with everyone pretending to work and pretending to get paid. Modern societies have a compromise. They allow markets to be relatively free and private enterprises to have their profits, so long as monopolies are prevented and exploitation is controlled with regulation. Then they have the state either own or have large interests in major economic areas where competition is difficult to maintain. I think this is the way the world is going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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