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jugoso

Capitalism is a Cult

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mr. merton

i have some very small understanding of what you speak of... and agree on not just a few points , and on several levels .

on the whole i have to agree with you , and can expand on , while i agree with you .

present day veit nam is a very good exsample of a socialist state , and it does work quite well .

i will qualifie this , it does not work quite well inspite of being a socialist state ... it works well because it is a well ajusted socialist state . it has communistic elements and capitalistic elements ... or ....

currently free market capitalism is allowed upto a mid level company size where the goverment takes controll of management gradualy .

what this means practicaly is.. there are no law or rules applide to or enforced apon the start up or running of business ventures untill the people running it get an income that is socaily offensive ... at which point , the goverment regulates income to be equal to or less than that of the govermental officals .

the officals are also held to socialy exceptable income levels ...

in this way charitable giving is controlled by the goverment , exploration of less socaily exceptable science or technology can be controlled by the goverment .... and things like civil rights , rock and roll or unexplained mysterys discussion groups can be controlled or stopped by those who know better the use of public energys .

haveing people with to much money is hard for a goverment to controll preemptively

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capitalism |ˈkapətlˌizəm|

noun

an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

The problem we are seeing is.... these private owners of trade and industry have become so powerful that Government has become a means to their ends. Nearly every governmental policy and action is on behalf of , or benefits, the most powerful Capitalists . Often now, the economic plan precedes the legislative means to facilitate it's accomplishment .

Power corrupts... Wealth is Power... In a democratic republic, Something is needed to balance the power of wealth with the common good. That should be Our government's role.

*

Edited by lightly
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Thanks for your comments. I think maybe a couple of clarifications may help.

First of all there is nothing wrong with wealth in Vietnam, and there are some very wealthy people. So long as the wealth was obtained legally, they are allowed to keep it and pass it onto their heirs. In fact, the taxation on such wealth is not as high as in many Western countries.

If someone wants to come into Vietnam and provide charity, the government will watch them a little suspiciously but will not interfere (except remember that religious proselytizing is not allowed, otherwise religions can do their charity and other work). I routinely donate to the Buddhist efforts to help the poor and to help those hit by disasters, although I have also on my own made donations to families I knew needed help and regularly contribute my share to the neighborhood government efforts.

Another thing is the size of private enterprises. You correctly observe that it is easy to start a small business in Vietnam. Technically you need to get a license, and the licenses are limited in each zone, but the reality is that families (this sort of thing is rarely done by individuals outside their family) open business all over the place -- out of their homes as well as just on the street all the time. The way the authorities respond is complicated, depending on where and what and so on, but generally new enterprises of a small nature are easy to start.

Larger enterprises typically are state owned, but run nowadays not as state monopolies but as competing state enterprises. Some of them have been partly sold to private individuals, and there is a good deal of interlocking. I don't think there is any rule that prevents a small business from getting large, and some very large foreign firms are active here (although no doubt with specific arrangements with the government).

High party officials have good lives and plenty of money. Let's not persuade ourselves that they are martyrs to society. They are not extravagant, however, nor showy, but such things are not Vietnamese anyway, except for Viet Q. (A little dig here, and I apologize if I offend anyone. Viet Q are overseas Vietnamese who return for visits and who sometimes, if they have been successful overseas, have a tendency to show off).

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Not quite. Communism also allows for those slacking off creatively, including refusenicks (if we have not seen it it is because there never was any communism on this planet we know off except some middle ages monasteries.)

Socialism is not a blend of anything but a philosophy in itself.

communisim assumes all are equal , and given enought training , provided by the state ... any one can be a fighter pilot of a ditch digger... we are all equal... given enought training , provided by the state.

given enought training , harolded by news reels and movies , print and artticals , any one can be trained to do anything... the quadraplejic can run a race... a man can give birth , a women father a child.... we are all equal , given enought training , provided by the state...

this was the drum beat of the ussr... the universal being , trained to be qualified .... and the athlete who was trained... that skill was owned by the state.... you can still find history of these ideals

the ownership of skill by the state...

also , you may question if the ussr was acrtualy a communistic system ... but let us say, much of the ussr might have a problem with your arguments ...

socailism gives us surplus populations... socailism warehouses useless , unemployable , untrainable people,,,, that is who socialism is...

Socialism does not assume that all are equal, so there we already have the problem. In fact, the basic socialist view is that to each according to his capacity and a minimum for all. That is not the same as communism where everything belongs to all and therefore to nobody.

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Economic models are moral neutral. So why start talking about morality when talking about economic models? Because someone who prefers one model wants to sugarcoat it with moral speak.

Giving everyone cookie cutter lives with cookie cutter paychecks to live in cookie cutter boxes might sound like a paradise, everyone doing according to their capability. The problem is, nobody talks about what happens when someone doesn't do to their capability. Nobody talks about how that's even determined in the first place. Nobody talks about how that's even motivated in the first place. People need the diversity of individuality in their lives. People need to feel a sense of personal identity. People need to feel like they're enjoying their lives. People need to receive benefits. Enjoying life isn't greedy or unethical. Enjoying love, beauty, harmony, peace, these are what make life worth living. These are what make us human. Individuality and diversity is the spice of life, not society meting out our humanity for us telling us how it's going to be. If capitalism is a cult, socialism is another one.

Rush is not only my favorite band, they also put out a brilliant album back in the day called 2112. We're about 100 years away now. In the album they tell a tale about a futuristic and socialistic world, and one man who discovers a stringed instrument hidden under a waterfall, practices ambitiously and learns how to play, and with individual ambition he sets out to challenge the system, and finally arrives at the steps of his masters:

Individual:

I know it`s most unusual

To come before you so

But I`ve found an ancient miracle

I thought that you should know

Listen to my music

And hear what it can do

There`s something here as strong as life

I know that it will reach you.

Bureau:

Yes, we know, it`s nothing new

It`s just a waste of time

We have no need for ancient ways

The world is doing fine

Another toy will help destroy

The elder race of man

Forget about your silly whim

It doesn`t fit the Plan.

Individual:

I can`t believe you`re saying

These things just can`t be true

Our world could use this beauty

Just think what we might do.

Listen to my music

And hear what it can do

There`s something here as strong as life

I know that it will reach you.

Bureau:

Don`t annoy us further!

We have our work to do.

Just think about the average

What use have they for you?

Another toy will help destroy

The elder race of man

Forget about your silly whim

It doesn`t fit the Plan!

The revolution ensues from there, and they "Hold the Red Star proudly high in hand!" no more:

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Yamoto - nothing you said there is not equally applicable to a social democratic model.

The problem is that you think regulation of markets is morally wrong - but you refuse to accept that by themselves markets have no moral compass and often need government regulation to impose one so that society is not harmed.

The fact that your Government has lately tended to side with the markets and lose its moral compass is not an argument against the need for regulation in general.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Yamoto - nothing you said there is not equally applicable to a social democratic model.

The problem is that you think regulation of markets is morally wrong - but you refuse to accept that by themselves markets have no moral compass and often need government regulation to impose one so that society is not harmed.

The fact that your Government has lately tended to side with the markets and lose its moral compass is not an argument against the need for regulation in general.

Br Cornelius

It had to do with capitalism, which is the subject of this thread. Let them make their own music, Br. Your wealth envy has poisoned you.

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It had to do with capitalism, which is the subject of this thread. Let them make their own music, Br. Your wealth envy has poisoned you.

You read entirely to much into a subject you don't understand - I envy no-one, other than those who show more widsom than I can muster. I have a sufficiency of everything and want for almost nothing.

I pity many for their avarice however.

Br Cornelius

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If the free market regulated our economy, these "too big to fail" monstrosities who abused peoples' money would be bankrupt. But the banking system gets the big cheese and it's the highest flying stock sector on the market today. For shame, socialists. For shame. Yeah they "need government regulation" like I need an endless supply of credit to finance my special interests too.

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You read entirely to much into a subject you don't understand - I envy no-one, other than those who show more widsom than I can muster. I have a sufficiency of everything and want for almost nothing.

I pity many for their avarice however.

Br Cornelius

You're not the subject, and the bullet points in the OP are not addressing capitalism. We have endured a highly regulated market for generations now, and have deliberately created this moral hazard upon our economy where credit rules and capital dies. If you think that's capitalism, you're the one that doesn't understand the subject.

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If the free market regulated our economy, these "too big to fail" monstrosities who abused peoples' money would be bankrupt. But the banking system gets the big cheese and it's the highest flying stock sector on the market today. For shame, socialists. For shame. Yeah they "need government regulation" like I need an endless supply of credit to finance my special interests too.

As I said, the failure of your government to act in the countries best interests is not a general argument against the need to regulate markets.

Having failed to regulate the markets and caused the catastrophic inflation of the economy in funny money deals, the government then stepped into protect its vested interests. this was a failure of appropriate regulation at every stage. However, if they had have failed to do what they did post 2007 your economy - and the rest of the worlds would be in a state of abject collapse and semi-permanent depression, so it is arguable that given that they caused the crisis to develop, they had to take decisive action to prevent the worst of the fall out.

Personally I think they bough a few years and expect the delayed implosion to happen within the next two years.

The root cause of all this was deregulation of the banks and the markets.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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You're not the subject, and the bullet points in the OP are not addressing capitalism. We have endured a highly regulated market for generations now, and have deliberately created this moral hazard upon our economy where credit rules and capital dies. If you think that's capitalism, you're the one that doesn't understand the subject.

You made a personal statement about me which i refuted - you know almost nothing about me so don't presume to divine my motives.

Br Cornelius

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You made a personal statement about me which i refuted - you know almost nothing about me so don't presume to divine my motives.

Br Cornelius

What are your motives to want a cookie cutter world then? Why don't you want people to aspire to be greater than you are? What mechanism would cause someone to be okay with holding people down to some average level that your bureaucratic masters come up with?

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As I said, the failure of your government to act in the countries best interests is not a general argument against the need to regulate markets.

Having failed to regulate the markets and caused the catastrophic inflation of the economy in funny money deals, the government then stepped into protect its vested interests. this was a failure of appropriate regulation at every stage. However, if they had have failed to do what they did post 2007 your economy - and the rest of the worlds would be in a state of abject collapse and semi-permanent depression, so it is arguable that given that they caused the crisis to develop, they had to take decisive action to prevent the worst of the fall out.

Personally I think they bough a few years and expect the delayed implosion to happen within the next two years.

The root cause of all this was deregulation of the banks and the markets.

Br Cornelius

The markets regulate themselves when we have a government that has the authority to enforce contracts and prosecute fraud. That's the purpose of government, Br. Not price fixing, market making, money inflating, credit expanding. But the free market regulations were thrown out the window long ago and we've got people like you and jugoso and Michael Moore blaming capitalism for it and that's a terrible and dangerous precedent for our future.

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What are your motives to want a cookie cutter world then? Why don't you want people to aspire to be greater than you are? What mechanism would cause someone to be okay with holding people down to some average level that your bureaucratic masters come up with?

I am against allowing the power of money to distort the rules of civil society to the point where it disadvantages 99% of that population. This is the reality end point of deregulated markets with power to shape the rules to favour their own interests.

i am happy to see people do well for themselves through their own hard work, but thats not how the world works. people do well because they sit on piles of inherited money which they use to protect that money pile.

Br Cornelius

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The markets regulate themselves when we have a government that has the authority to enforce contracts and prosecute fraud. That's the purpose of government, Br. Not price fixing, market making, money inflating, credit expanding. But the free market regulations were thrown out the window long ago and we've got people like you and jugoso and Michael Moore blaming capitalism for it and that's a terrible and dangerous precedent for our future.

They never existed - they are a fantasy.

Free markets have never been the state of affairs.

Capitalist economies without sufficient regulation always tend towards monopolies, and even your goverment understood this enough to introduce anti-trust laws.

Br Cornelius

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I am against allowing the power of money to distort the rules of civil society to the point where it disadvantages 99% of that population. This is the reality end point of deregulated markets with power to shape the rules to favour their own interests.

i am happy to see people do well for themselves through their own hard work, but thats not how the world works. people do well because they sit on piles of inherited money which they use to protect that money pile.

Br Cornelius

You're against the power of money, or more specifically, some people having too much power from having too much of it. That is wealth envy, like I said.

You wrap it up like having a convenient medium of exchange doesn't benefit 99% of the population which is baseless and absurd. It's baseless mythology to keep citing "deregulated markets" when there is no such thing. Fraud is illegal, Br. It just isn't punished when it's the government who's doing it.

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They never existed - they are a fantasy.

Free markets have never been the state of affairs.

Capitalist economies without sufficient regulation always tend towards monopolies, and even your goverment understood this enough to introduce anti-trust laws.

Br Cornelius

Our trusted future unknown bureaucrats in their marble halls are greedy too. This rainbow universe of morally superior masters raining down their morality on the rest of us will never become reality because power corrupts. One doesn't need money to be greedy. Money is just a medium to get things. So long as there's a world with things in it, there will be greed. We need to defend the individual, not the bureau.

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You're against the power of money, or more specifically, some people having too much power from having too much of it. That is wealth envy, like I said.

You wrap it up like having a convenient medium of exchange doesn't benefit 99% of the population which is baseless and absurd. It's baseless mythology to keep citing "deregulated markets" when there is no such thing. Fraud is illegal, Br. It just isn't punished when it's the government who's doing it.

Almost all financial fraud goes undetected and takes place within the money markets. It is inevitable because to conspire to commit fraud is extremely profitable and so evolutionarily inevitable.

Money is a powerful tool in the hands of those who have it, but it always corrupts when it is concentrated in the hands of a few. that is not money envy - that is an Empirical fact.

Br Cornelius

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Almost all financial fraud goes undetected and takes place within the money markets. It is inevitable because to conspire to commit fraud is extremely profitable and so evolutionarily inevitable.

Money is a powerful tool in the hands of those who have it, but it always corrupts when it is concentrated in the hands of a few. that is not money envy - that is an Empirical fact.

Br Cornelius

If you can prove it, please prosecute it. Fraud is illegal. And I would much rather have free and transparent markets than backroom deals cut by bureaucrats picking the winners and losers.

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Our trusted future unknown bureaucrats in their marble halls are greedy too. This rainbow universe of morally superior masters raining down their morality on the rest of us will never become reality because power corrupts. One doesn't need money to be greedy. Money is just a medium to get things. So long as there's a world with things in it, there will be greed. We need to defend the individual, not the bureau.

Without it we are all feudal surfs at the mercy of people who can buy influence and impose it with their bought armies. The problem is that the strongest power in the world has been hijacked by those feudal masters. Removing government is not the answer - choosing better government is.

Br Cornelius

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If you can prove it, please prosecute it. Fraud is illegal. And I would much rather have free and transparent markets than backroom deals cut by bureaucrats picking the winners and losers.

Who would prosecute financial fraud if we had no regulators ??

Fantasy lala land of the perfect capitalist state. Taliban by another name.

Br Cornelius

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Who would prosecute financial fraud if we had no regulators ??

Fantasy lala land of the perfect capitalist state. Taliban by another name.

Br Cornelius

Who said no regulations? Will you put that myth down already? You're not interested in honest debate, you're interested in a pile of straw you keep in the barn.

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Who said no regulations? Will you put that myth down already? You're not interested in honest debate, you're interested in a pile of straw you keep in the barn.

Who would regulate when you had diminished the Governments of the world to mere lap dogs of the markets.

Follow your own logic to its conclusion.

You are against Government but expect some body to regulate the markets - hey presto, as if by magic you have created Government :clap:

A regulator has to be bigger and stronger than the thing it attempts to regulate, you cannot have a fair and strong market without a fairer and stronger government.

You really haven't grasped the internal logic of your own position have you. If your not prepared to step into the real world, then you shouldn't argue about real things.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Who would regulate when you had diminished the Governments of the world to mere lap dogs of the markets.

Follow your own logic to its conclusion.

You are against Government but expect some body to regulate the markets - hey presto, as if by magic you have created Government :clap:

A regulator has to be bigger and stronger than the thing it attempts to regulate, you cannot have a fair and strong market without a fairer and stronger government.

You really haven't grasped the internal logic of your own position have you.

Br Cornelius

Nobody said "mere lap dogs to the markets". Will you put that mythology to bed? I'm not "against government". I love the US government and I'm trying to save the damned thing from itself. The federal government has excellent purpose for existing, and it is justly empowered to enforce contracts and prosecute fraud.

If everything you do in your life is voluntary, then you will pay the price proportional to your own misdeeds. That is the way to maintain a just society. It's called personal responsibility; not bureaucratic irresponsibility. Not this strange desire to make everyone else pay for greedy peoples' appetites, fraud, and economic malfeasance. The more money government spends, the more inflation hurts the poor. I believe that prices should be made more affordable, not less. And this insane gang of irresponsible criminals we have ruling over us today need to meet their demise. We have to win the battle of hearts and minds in the street and this website is a quick and easy place to start.

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