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jugoso

Capitalism is a Cult

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I think you need to grasp that retreating into fantasy solutions, such as a return to some imagined perfect capitalist state, is just a distraction which diverts us away from facing the real issues ofg making the only world that we have and which is possible work for a change.

You will never hear me advocating socialism as a solution to our problems because it represents another fantasy perfect imagined state.

The world we live in is the world as it is - it can be made better or it can be made worse. Radical revolutionary overturns (of any hug) have consistently shown themselves to take us to that worse state. I am for what works and against ideological fantasies.

Br Cornelius

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I think you need to grasp that retreating into fantasy solutions, such as a return to some imagined perfect capitalist state, is just a distraction which diverts us away from facing the real issues ofg making the only world that we have and which is possible work for a change.

You will never hear me advocating socialism as a solution to our problems because it represents another fantasy perfect imagined state.

The world we live in is the world as it is - it can be made better or it can be made worse. Radical revolutionary overturns (of any hug) have consistently shown themselves to take us to that worse state. I am for what works and against ideological fantasies.

Br Cornelius

Nothing is perfect, the free markets are brutal, nearly all start up businesses will fail, but the market metes out both benefits and punishments to the proportion of our actions. Nobody is denying government's role in this.

When I talk about theory, you talk about practice. When I talk about practice, you talk about theory. That's the pattern I see in every debate you get into about this subject. There is no pure capitalism or socialism in practice.

Freedom is vastly superior to tyranny. If you can't even agree to that, if you can't repeat that statement and actually agree with it, then you will put the world in chains and we'll all be slaves. I look at world history and I do not trust the mass murder and mass hypocrisy of the bureau to solve society's problems, no matter what form of government we may want to have a protracted discussion about.

Let the People decide, Br. Have some faith in the goodness of humanity.

http://www.metrolyrics.com/nobodys-hero-lyrics-rush.html

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Nothing is perfect, the free markets are brutal, nearly all start up businesses will fail, but the market metes out both benefits and punishments to the proportion of our actions. Nobody is denying government's role in this.

When I talk about theory, you talk about practice. When I talk about practice, you talk about theory. That's the pattern I see in every debate you get into about this subject. There is no pure capitalism or socialism in practice.

Freedom is vastly superior to tyranny. If you can't even agree to that, if you can't repeat that statement and actually agree with it, then you will put the world in chains and we'll all be slaves. I look at world history and I do not trust the mass murder and mass hypocrisy of the bureau to solve society's problems, no matter what form of government we may want to have a protracted discussion about.

Let the People decide, Br. Have some faith in the goodness of humanity.

http://www.metrolyri...yrics-rush.html

I don't accept your particular definition of Freedom. I think all of your conceptual frames of reference are abstractions which bare no relationship to the reality in which people live. That doesn't make me an advocate of tyranny just a aware of the reality of the human condition.

I do not accept that there has ever been a state of Freedom that humans have ever lived in - we are always constrained by our society and we always have been.

Making that society the best possible state for the most diverse group of people is what I aim for - warts and all, compromises and all.

Br Cornelius

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Any forceful change of government would be a difficult process. Is the government tyrannical enough to call for such a change ? You would certainbly see a change a world currency away from the dollar. Itleast for the near future. Im not afraid of that.

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I don't accept your particular definition of Freedom. I think all of your conceptual frames of reference are abstractions which bare no relationship to the reality in which people live. That doesn't make me an advocate of tyranny just a aware of the reality of the human condition.

I do not accept that there has ever been a state of Freedom that humans have ever lived in - we are always constrained by our society and we always have been.

Making that society the best possible state for the most diverse group of people is what I aim for - warts and all, compromises and all.

Br Cornelius

Well then you don't accept the dictionary because I never get a definition of a layman's vocabulary word without it.

We can have as many theoretical or practical discussions about reality and society as we like, but it's like TJ said, I would rather err on the side of too much liberty than not enough of it. The eternal struggle between liberty and tyranny transcends left and right ideology, partisan politics, styles of government, and theories of economics.

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I am inclined to agree with the general analysis that the USA is teetering on the precipice of becoming a totalitarian state. I have always believed that Alan Greenspan was to intelligent not to realise the inevitable end point of his fiscal policy, and therefore I am inclined to believe it was intentional. I am also inclined to believe that this follows nicely along with the "Shock Doctrine" analysis of economic history. That is, you create a crisis (very profitable crisis if you are ahead of the crest) and then manipulate the markets to make a killing on the way down - which is exactly what happened. The banks have collateralize almost all real assets in the world which represents a form of indentured slavery by another name. The debt can never be paid off but the payments will be extracted into an infinite future.

In identifying the players is where I take issue. The real orchestrator's of all this were people like the Bushes - all the way back to pre-WW2 times. They were the banking interests which started the ball rolling and they were the people who smuggled in all of the post war Nazi's into multiple positions of authority - especially into the secret government of the USA - the CIA. This is a corporate fascistic right wing coup which has been slowly unfurling for the last 100yr or so . The same interests have financed the Tea Party which has encouraged a distrust of Government in favour of corporate interests and has allowed the agenda to take hold and will make the transition into corporate financed dictatorship almost unnoticed.

Maybe you do need your guns to defend yourself against the scenario that played out in Nazi Germany. Maybe you should be very worried about your Freedom. But please understand where the threat really comes from - it will not be a socialist hell you experience, more a corporatist hell.

Br Cornelius

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If the free market regulated our economy, these "too big to fail" monstrosities who abused peoples' money would be bankrupt. But the banking system gets the big cheese and it's the highest flying stock sector on the market today. For shame, socialists. For shame. Yeah they "need government regulation" like I need an endless supply of credit to finance my special interests too.

You make a good point but perhaps carry it too far. All regulation is an invitation to corruption by the regulators, from the bribe to the cop or the building inspector to the promise of a nice job in a few years to the bank auditor.

Is the solution no regulation? Think about that.

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Maybe you do need your guns to defend yourself against the scenario that played out in Nazi Germany. Maybe you should be very worried about your Freedom. But please understand where the threat really comes from - it will not be a socialist hell you experience, more a corporatist hell.

Br Cornelius

I agree, it won't be Socialist or Capitalist, but rather Statist-Corporatist. Calling it Fascist wouldn't be too far from accurate.

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You make a good point but perhaps carry it too far. All regulation is an invitation to corruption by the regulators, from the bribe to the cop or the building inspector to the promise of a nice job in a few years to the bank auditor.

Is the solution no regulation? Think about that.

We can't throw out good regulations like bankruptcy law and then cite a lack of regulations as the problem. I would bring back the most powerful regulations the economy has ever known. It's the government that's subverting the regulations that really matter. There must be consequences for our misdeeds. There must be a price to pay for failure and a reward for success or we will lose every edge we ever enjoyed. The marketplace is global now, and we can't run away from competition no matter how bad some of us want to.

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My other point is - there is nothing inevitable about this outcome - in terms of Government. Its just your bad luck that a group of fascists sympathizers embedded themselves into "your" Government.

Br Cornelius

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My other point is - there is nothing inevitable about this outcome - in terms of Government. Its just your bad luck that a group of fascists sympathizers embedded themselves into "your" Government.

I always cringe when people start referring to others as fascists when the charge is plainly not true. It tells me right away the person probably isn't thinking clearly -- either that or is engaging in name-calling propaganda. There are real fascists in the world, so it behooves us to not cry "wolf" so often.

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Markets have their place when they are in line with social needs. There is nothing automatic about this happening. What happens frequently is collective need is manipulated to conform with the output of corportations. This is what happens when corporations become to powerful.

This why we can never do without a Government.

Br Cornelius

So corporations are susceptible to corruption, but governments AREN'T? Please, give me a break....

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So corporations are susceptible to corruption, but governments AREN'T? Please, give me a break....

Businesses pay the ultimate price every day. Government gets away with massive wrongdoing on a regular basis and it answers to nobody.

Don't mean to sound morbid but maybe if the govt hired him to bury the dead it creates, the smell would eventually change his mind. Meanwhile, those evil corporations are out there, making money! How dare they!? ;)

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I always cringe when people start referring to others as fascists when the charge is plainly not true. It tells me right away the person probably isn't thinking clearly -- either that or is engaging in name-calling propaganda. There are real fascists in the world, so it behooves us to not cry "wolf" so often.

Looking deeply into the history of the Bush family and they have more than a whiff of the fascist about them. I wouldn't withdraw that accusation based upon what they have done and the economic and military agenda they have pushed.

Br Cornelius

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So corporations are susceptible to corruption, but governments AREN'T? Please, give me a break....

Did I ever say that - NO I did not.

Governments are at least accountable to their people when election time comes round. The fact that the vast majority of people are to indolent to become actively involved in making that change is not the fault of Government as an instituition.

There is a prevailing anti-government rhetoric abroad in America and its just not healthy or well considered. Government is a necessary evil and it is our duty to make it the least of all possible evils.

Br Cornelius

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Looking deeply into the history of the Bush family and they have more than a whiff of the fascist about them. I wouldn't withdraw that accusation based upon what they have done and the economic and military agenda they have pushed.

That sort of statement kinda ruins any credibility and makes you look like an extremist.

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That sort of statement kinda ruins any credibility and makes you look like an extremist.

Do your own research. Look particularly at the Banking ties to the Nazi's and then into operation paperclip which brough a considerable number of Gestapo officers into the for-runner to the CIA). Bush contacts were involved in both and then the Bushes headed up the CIA for much of its early history. There is a compelling body of evidence that Bush Snr. was involved in the Kennedy assassination. Bush Snr. also had real trouble when his campaign for Presidency was found to be using a network of fascist sympathizers throughout the country.

Don't take my word for any of it - do your own research. If doing your own research doesn't leave you at least a little bit suspicious of their Nazi ties then I will be very surprised.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
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Do your own research. Look particularly at the Banking ties to the Nazi's and then into operation paperclip which brough a considerable number of Gestapo officers into the for-runner to the CIA). Bush contacts were involved in both and then the Bushes headed up the CIA for much of its early history. There is a compelling body of evidence that Bush Snr. was involved in the Kennedy assassination. Bush Snr. also had real trouble when his campaign for Presidency was found to be using a network of fascist sympathizers throughout the country.

Don't take my word for any of it - do your own research. If doing your own research doesn't leave you at least a little bit suspicious of their Nazi ties then I will be very surprised.

Br Cornelius

Project Paperclip brought lots of Nazi scientists over here not S.S. Soldiers or Nazi Soldiers or Nazi Politicians. Most scientists today go along with their government to receive funding for their projects. Not all scientists are good or moral people, there are bad scientists in this world. The government limits what scientists can do and what they are allowed to research. Nazi government gave less restriction to the scientists if they test on Jewish or Undesirable Subjects during World War II. Sadly some of the best contributing factors to science was brought forth through immoral means. In some sense, that isn't going to change as long as there is governments who are arch-enemies of each other or governments much like the Nazi government at the time. Government is the main contributing factor in a lot what scientists research at the time. If you really must know, some of those scientists were doing those research because it was either that or death of a family member or themselves. Must I go in-depth in explaining everything to everyone these days? The ignorance people show is astounding and it just shows our race is getting dumber by the day, we really need to buckle down and stop being so damn judging all the time. I'm not a Nazi Sympathizer, I am more of a realist who tries to understand the choices people make in the past and in my life time.

Edited by Uncle Sam
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capitalism |ˈkapətlˌizəm|

noun

an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

The problem we are seeing is.... these private owners of trade and industry have become so powerful that Government has become a means to their ends. Nearly every governmental policy and action is on behalf of , or benefits, the most powerful Capitalists . Often now, the economic plan precedes the legislative means to facilitate it's accomplishment .

Power corrupts... Wealth is Power... In a democratic republic, Something is needed to balance the power of wealth with the common good. That should be Our government's role.

*

I agree with some of what you have said here but I see the problem is that the "Government by the people and for the people" has been taken over by the private owners of profit. Making a lot of money apparently was not good enough, they wanted to limit the abilities of others to do so and control their lives and educational opportunities. THIS is the real problem that many do not seem to see.

No, it is not ok that most of our representatives are wealthy elitists that are either corporate owners or major stockholders or financially backed by such. They have absolutely no clue what an average day for an average person is like...never mind those that have to struggle and decide to pay bills, have food or medicine. That is NOT proper representation by the percentages...period.

Capitalism and true, free markets are not evil...it is what people do with that freedom that is evil.

I am self employed. I get to work whatever hours I choose to work as long as I meet my deadlines. I could make more money if I went back to a corporate ball and chain but I value my freedom as much if not more than I do money. I also get to choose what kind of work I am going to take rather than having a corporate bureaucrat dictate my next assignment. Anyway, that's sort of off topic but not totally. I participate in capitalism and free markets. I receive a bid package for a project. I look at it and if I feel it is something I would like to do, I put a bid in. I also know others are going to be bidding on that job so I am forced to look long and hard at my prices in order to be competitive...this is free markets... I can try to demand top dollar all the time and sometimes I might get it because of reputation or demand...I can also throw out a crackhead price and try to undercut my competitors...or I can try to right a reasonable price that will get attention and then negotiate a contract...this is what I normally do.

What we are experiencing today, for the most part, is not true capitalism and free market. Big money corporations and lobbyist can dominate any particular discipline to the point of appearing to be a monopoly... but are so clever in design and structure as to never have to face that accusation in a court of law...again, for the most part.

Edited by Jeremiah65
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My other point is - there is nothing inevitable about this outcome - in terms of Government. Its just your bad luck that a group of fascists sympathizers embedded themselves into "your" Government.

Br Cornelius

Just curious...

Would you include Obama in this fascist group you believe is embedded in the American GOV?

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I pointed out how the Fascist rhetoric makes the posts extremist and irrational. Obviously it had no effect considering the response I got, in effect telling me I don't know anything, so I have to conclude that many of those posting here are simply to be ignored as marginal and of little or no value.

The funny thing is, I am a socialist working and living in a socialist country, and I see this better than Americans.

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I pointed out how the Fascist rhetoric makes the posts extremist and irrational. Obviously it had no effect considering the response I got, in effect telling me I don't know anything, so I have to conclude that many of those posting here are simply to be ignored as marginal and of little or no value.

The funny thing is, I am a socialist working and living in a socialist country, and I see this better than Americans.

I'll give you some attention...

Who are you addressing?

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Most people tend to refer to Obama as a socialist with Unconstitutional leanings.

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Who are you addressing?

Since you don't know we can safely assume I wasn't addressing you.

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Most people tend to refer to Obama as a socialist with Unconstitutional leanings.

I don't think calling someone a "socialist" has quite the rhetorical effect as calling someone a "fascist," but it is nevertheless an inaccurate description and therefore diminishes the credibility of the speaker.

(Does anyone understand what I just said: my English is stumbling).

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