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jugoso

Capitalism is a Cult

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I don't think calling someone a "socialist" has quite the rhetorical effect as calling someone a "fascist," but it is nevertheless an inaccurate description and therefore diminishes the credibility of the speaker.

(Does anyone understand what I just said: my English is stumbling).

I understand your english..... I think.....

Just Curious....

What's your nationality and what is so good about socialist Vietnam?

Edited by acidhead
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When we in America refer to Obama as a socialist it certainly has a reference to his agenda.

Perhaps it has been slanged from what you might you consider socialism but nontheless thats what we refer to it as as there is no known term except Consumerist to explain our current form of Government. I believe it is being used more in a search for an accurate description of what our Government is turning into as we shred the Constitution. Alot of people dont care what its called and are more invested into preserving the Constitution then what term we use to describe the process by which its being eroded.

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Does Obama oppose the problem or is part of it?

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Depends who you ask. Im not certain its legal to speak out against our Government anymore. :whistle:

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What's your nationality and what is so good about socialist Vietnam?

How nice! Your question gives me a chance to preach socialism.

I'm Vietnamese although I went to college in the States and have a job that sends me there quite often.

Describing Vietnam as "socialist" is not quite what most Americans think, as it is a mixed economy with active markets. Still most major enterprises are either state-owned or the state has a large interest.

Once the "New Thinking" (that opened up the economy quite a bit) went into force a decade or so ago the economy took off and everyone's standard of living has really, noticeably, improved. Now of course similar things have happened in much more capitalist countries (S. Korea for example). What works I think is a government with the power and will to manage details like money and interest and banks and so on, to make plans and see to it that private (or public, for that matter) enterprises operate within those plans, to have good law enforcement and good schools and good health care and lots of spending on infrastructure.

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When we in America refer to Obama as a socialist it certainly has a reference to his agenda.

If he were a real socialist, we would see industries being nationalized.

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How nice! Your question gives me a chance to preach socialism.

I'm Vietnamese although I went to college in the States and have a job that sends me there quite often.

Describing Vietnam as "socialist" is not quite what most Americans think, as it is a mixed economy with active markets. Still most major enterprises are either state-owned or the state has a large interest.

Once the "New Thinking" (that opened up the economy quite a bit) went into force a decade or so ago the economy took off and everyone's standard of living has really, noticeably, improved. Now of course similar things have happened in much more capitalist countries (S. Korea for example). What works I think is a government with the power and will to manage details like money and interest and banks and so on, to make plans and see to it that private (or public, for that matter) enterprises operate within those plans, to have good law enforcement and good schools and good health care and lots of spending on infrastructure.

Sounds like a paradise... for now.

It works because foreign investment keeps the illusion continuing.

You should pay close attention to the American dollar. It is what keeps the illusion of Vietnam strong.

Never forget the 50 000 americans who died for that nation.

What happens in America directly will affect Vietnam.

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Foreign investment helps, and the government needs to be careful to reign in the bureaucrats so that foreigners want to come here. Still, I think this is a fairly minor part of the equation, as Vietnam's exports remain mainly agricultural.

The Vietnamese Dong is managed, and seems (although I am not privy to these decisions) to be slowly decreased in value (it has gone from about 12,000 to the dollar to now 20,000 to the dollar over the last decade, with the a drop typically happening unannounced about once a year). This is slow enough the people don't stash away dollars any more -- Dong in the bank earns a better return.

I would not describe what is going on as an illusion. Five percent or better growth year in and year out. People notice.

I fear the Americans who died here died in vain. Nowadays America is viewed in friendly terms, and unofficially as a possible counterpoint to Chinese hegemony, and Americans as people are universally welcomed, but the American war was a huge mistake. I think the North would eventually have prevailed regardless, but the American intervention kinda made it inevitable, and maybe a lot more bloody than necessary. The intervention converted what had been a civil war into a war of liberation with the North seen by most as defending the motherland. Most Vietnamese did not see the war as between Communists and Capitalists, but as between Vietnamese and foreigners. They also did not see the Southern government as being any more freedom oriented than the northern government, and saw it as hugely more corrupt.

What happens in America influences Vietnam, to be sure; what happens everywhere nowadays influences what happens everywhere else. It is only one small planet.

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If he were a real socialist, we would see industries being nationalized.

1. Obamacare

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1. Obamacare

I have of course heard of this, but I don't see where it is nationalization. Calling it nationalization doesn't make it nationalization. Is the government going to take over the health insurance companies and so on?

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I have of course heard of this, but I don't see where it is nationalization. Calling it nationalization doesn't make it nationalization. Is the government going to take over the health insurance companies and so on?

National Insurance is among it yes as well as continued private insurance. In the fine print however is a long train of abuses and taxes which we are only now starting to learn about. The smart bugger was smart enough to not begin the Obamacare programs for several years after it was ratified. Sort of like a smokescreen for the abuses written in it.

When he said it was not a tax he lied. It is a tax and has taxation of specific groups of individuals written directly into it.

The kicker is if you dont participate you are fined so yes it is Nationalized (not yet but soon)

Edited by AsteroidX
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I think America's problem with health care is that it costs way too much. I had to go to an emergency room once because of a case of food poisoning and I had a speech to deliver in a couple hours, and the bill for nothing more than an intervenous re-hydration came to $800. Please!

I have to take blood pressure medicines, a statin, a thyroid pill, and vitamin D. I have learned the hard way to not try to buy them in the States. All I do here is go to the pharmacist and tell them what I want and sixty days supply costs me a few dollars. There I have to have a prescription first and then it costs hundreds of dollars. There are even treatments that you can't have in the States but are readily available here. They cured my chronic hepatitis with a drug that is not available in the States.

In Vietnam you are on your own with health bills; the state provides no help. Still, people can afford it (no doubt there are subsidies helping keep costs down). There is insurance but few buy it.

I don't doubt that American hospitals are better equipped, and probably American doctors better trained, but it doesn't appear from the statistics that American health care provides much better results.

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And those are the reasons why Obamacare is not good for us because it does not fix any of the problems you say in Vietnam dont exist. Dont get me wrong are Health Care is horrid and quickly becoming something for the ultra wealthy and to a degree the ultra poor. Those in between are left few choices anymore. Food or Healthcare.....

Now for some Obamacare will benefit them. For others they will be the ones paying for it by increased fees for certain items. They also want the young healthy population that does not use health care to carry a large burden for an aged population that is used to the comfort of cheap insurance which are no longer feasible economically. This same young population that is perpetually unemployed or underemployed with high college degrees working minimum wage jobs because our jobs have been outsourced to foreign countries.

Then the American pride kicks in and I dont anymore to consider it a greivance and an illegal tax on a minority of people.

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Project Paperclip brought lots of Nazi scientists over here not S.S. Soldiers or Nazi Soldiers or Nazi Politicians. Most scientists today go along with their government to receive funding for their projects. Not all scientists are good or moral people, there are bad scientists in this world. The government limits what scientists can do and what they are allowed to research. Nazi government gave less restriction to the scientists if they test on Jewish or Undesirable Subjects during World War II. Sadly some of the best contributing factors to science was brought forth through immoral means. In some sense, that isn't going to change as long as there is governments who are arch-enemies of each other or governments much like the Nazi government at the time. Government is the main contributing factor in a lot what scientists research at the time. If you really must know, some of those scientists were doing those research because it was either that or death of a family member or themselves. Must I go in-depth in explaining everything to everyone these days? The ignorance people show is astounding and it just shows our race is getting dumber by the day, we really need to buckle down and stop being so damn judging all the time. I'm not a Nazi Sympathizer, I am more of a realist who tries to understand the choices people make in the past and in my life time.

The scientific side of operation paperclip is the bit that most people know about, but it is only half of the story.

Operation paperclip also brought in many Gestapo officers into the American secret service. Its easy to verify this as true.

Br Cornelius

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I think America's problem with health care is that it costs way too much. I had to go to an emergency room once because of a case of food poisoning and I had a speech to deliver in a couple hours, and the bill for nothing more than an intervenous re-hydration came to $800. Please!

A short ambulance ride to the ER, a quick in and out of the hospital after a few rudimentary tests and the price tag exceeded $10,000. Not bad for less than an hour's work.

People don't make the association of what causes prices to come down for common products they use every day to their health care. They just hear a politician talk a bunch of flowery sugar-coated crap during campaign season and then vote for spending other peoples' $$ on that. That doesn't bring costs down, it just drives them ever higher. People think that costs are simply a matter of point-of-sale costs for the consumer of those health services which has nothing to do with it. The cost problem is what the industry is billing the insurance companies, which thanks to government subsidies, is always the maximum they can charge.

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Yes. Certain officers even death camp ones were allowed into America after WW2. We still find one here and there. The ones put on trial were the fall guys.

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Just curious...

Would you include Obama in this fascist group you believe is embedded in the American GOV?

The fact that a bones man, John Kerry, has been appointed to secretary of state is very suggestive. He certainly seems to have surrounded himself with much the same cast of characters to suggest he's just another face on the revolving door.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
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I pointed out how the Fascist rhetoric makes the posts extremist and irrational. Obviously it had no effect considering the response I got, in effect telling me I don't know anything, so I have to conclude that many of those posting here are simply to be ignored as marginal and of little or no value.

The funny thing is, I am a socialist working and living in a socialist country, and I see this better than Americans.

I have no interest in persuading anyone of my position on this, its one which took me years to arrive at. If you are interested I offered a few keys and its up to you to persuade yourself - or not.

Br Cornelius

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A short ambulance ride to the ER, a quick in and out of the hospital after a few rudimentary tests and the price tag exceeded $10,000. Not bad for less than an hour's work.

People don't make the association of what causes prices to come down for common products they use every day to their health care. They just hear a politician talk a bunch of flowery sugar-coated crap during campaign season and then vote for spending other peoples' $$ on that. That doesn't bring costs down, it just drives them ever higher. People think that costs are simply a matter of point-of-sale costs for the consumer of those health services which has nothing to do with it. The cost problem is what the industry is billing the insurance companies, which thanks to government subsidies, is always the maximum they can charge.

But fully public health systems consistently cost half the price of fully insured systems - and produce better outcomes. This is definitely one of those cases where utility trumps ideology.

Br Cornelius

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The application of the utility is important yes Br ? That is my argument.

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These three quotes perfectly describe the situation in America;

"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power."

Benito Mussolini, Fascist dictator of Italy

"Fascism will come to America in the name of anti-fascism'. I'm afraid, based on my own long experience, that fascism will come to America in the name of national security."

Sen. Huey Long

"Fascism is capitalism in decay."

Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

And how many of the following describe America at the moment;

- Fourteen Characteristics of Fascism -

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Dr. Lawrence Britt

"A few years ago, William E. Shirer, whose monumental The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich certainly qualifies him as a penetrating observer, commented that America may be the first country in which fascism comes to power through democratic elections... The main source of this new-style despotism is not the frenetics of the extreme right - the know-nothings, the private militias, the Ku Klux Klan, or the openly neo-fascist parties. Nor is it the crazies of the extreme left. True, either of these might play facilitating, tactical or triggering roles. But the new order is likely to emerge rather as an outgrowth of powerful tendencies within the establishment itself. It would come neither by accident nor as the product of any central conspiracy. It would emerge, rather, through the hidden logic of capitalist society's transitional growth and the groping responses to mounting crisis in a dwindling capitalist world."

Bertram Gross, Friendly Fascism, 1979

How well does the following describe Americas economic state - especially under Bush Junior and Obama;

"Mussolini resorted to a subterfuge to pay contractors without increasing his budget. He would make a contract with a private firm to build certain roads or buildings. He would pay no money but sign an agreement to pay for the work on a yearly installment plan. No money was paid out by the government. And hence nothing showed up in the budget. Actually the government had contracted a debt just as much as if it had issued a bond. But because no money passed, the whole transaction was omitted from the treasury's books. However, after making such a contract, each year the government had to find the money to pay the yearly installments which ran from ten to fifty years. In time, as the number of such contracts increased, the number and amount of the yearly payments grew. By 1932 he had obligated the state for 75 billion lire of such contracts.

The yearly payments ran to billions. What he did by this means was to conceal from the people the fact that he was plunging the nation ever deeper into debt. If these sums were added to the national debt as revealed in the treasury admissions, the actual debt was staggering ten years after Mussolini's ascent to power on a promise to balance the budget. According to Dr. Salvemini's calculations, the debt of 93 billion lire, when Mussolini took office, had grown to 148,646,000,000 lire in 1934. . Mussolini made no secret of the fact that he was spending. What he concealed was that he was loading the state with debt. The essence of all this is that the Fascist architect discovered that, with all his promises, he had no formula for creating employment and good times save by spending public funds and getting those funds by borrowing in one form or another - doing, in short, precisely what Depretis and Crispi and Giolitti had been doing, following the long settled practice of Italian governments.

Thus spending became a settled part of the policy of Fascism to create national income, except that the Fascist state spent upon a scale unimaginable to the old premiers save in war. But in time the Fascist began to invent a philosophical defense of his policy. What the old prewar ministries had done apologetically the Fascists now did with a pretension of sound economic support. "We were able to give a new turn to financial policy," says an Italian pamphlet, "which aimed at improving the public services and at the same time securing a more effective action on the part of the state in promoting and facilitating national progress."[3] It was the same old device plus a blast of pretentious economic drivel to improve its odor. Thus we may now say that fascism is a system of social organization that recognizes and proposes to protect the capitalist system and uses the device of public spending and debt as a means of creating national income to increase employment."

John T. Flynn, What Is Fascism

http://www.fascismusa.com/

This is an excellent summery of the state America is in and the brilliant minds who saw in coming from a long way off. Know your enemy.

Those who would seek to oppose the takeover of their country should boldly state their liberal credentials becaause they are the antithesis of fascism. Know your friends.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
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Good stuff Br. Thanks for posting it. Capitalism a cult? i dunno. Some vague understanding of it certainly has many devotees .. but doesn't a cult usually need a leader?

Capitalism has no leader.. it's a dog eat dog system. When unchecked it becomes anti capitalistic, devouring all competitors not necessary to it's advancement, until it stand alone and all powerful.

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We have a capitalist leader. Sort of. And certainly the Fed chief has the power of one. With a flip of his pen Interest rates are changed altering the course of millions of lives.

Edited by AsteroidX

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We have a capitalist leader. Sort of. And certainly the Fed chief has the power of one. With a flip of his pen Interest rates are changed altering the course of millions of lives.

You mean the president is THE "capitalist leader"? ... Capitalism is bigger than presidents? ... as for the pen flipper.. that sounds more like an abuse of a purely capitalistic system? A collusion with capitalists.

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A national economy has to be managed, and to do that certain officials have to have the mandate and the tools. I prefer that this be in the hands of a non-political group, and it seems to me that the States have it just about right.

What the Federal Reserve has done over the last few years has been largely disaster control -- preventing a world-wide depression by keeping interest rates down and pumping money into the economy. Traditional monetary conservatives think this will cause inflation, but they miss the point that to have inflation you have to have full employment. So long as there is significant unemployment of workers and resources, you need to do everything you can to keep the steam pressure up.

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