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ali smack

are aliens likely to exist or not?

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I disagree with his characterization, but I think his conclusion makes good sense. We really don't seem to have been visited in any way that is not subject to more mundane alternative explanations.

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I disagree with his characterization, but I think his conclusion makes good sense. We really don't seem to have been visited in any way that is not subject to more mundane alternative explanations.

So that's proof that Intelligent life is very short lived? I presume he must base that on the assumption that any ET civilisation, as soon as they knew that there was "civilisation" on this planet, would head straight here because they couldn't wait to meet us. Well, how would they know that there was "Civilisation" here, if they didn't do some preliminary reconnaisance? Perhaps that's what they're still doing, perhaps they study any civlisation they discover very carefully first before deciding to make Contact; or maybe they decided not to make Contact officially yet, since they decided that we're not likely to either be of any benefit to them or any danger to them for a long time yet. Does he assume that because he's Earth's greatest genius, then ETs would want to make contact with him first, even if they didn't want to make contact with our Governments? i'm afraid that does sound rather arrogant.

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I think "short lived" is a relative thing -- relative to the time the present cosmos has existed, several million years is a short time.

If they are out there but can't or don't visit us for some reason, the conclusion is basically the same. This does seem unlikely, and saying that they aren't there is more reasonable, and why wouldn't they be there, well, considering that they surely have evolved, the most reasonable reason is that they are short lived.

This is of course all speculation. I would be delighted (assuming it goes well) if they landed on the White House Lawn and proved this wrong. It would take that sort of event to be persuasive, though.

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Likely to "exist" in an infinite universe? Yes.

LIkely to be humans with funky faces like in Startreck, or likely to come here in flying saucers and make crop circles? Absolutely no.

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Unless you claim you do not come under the title of "Any Other Person" and I believe that you do, then right here

If your opinion is just as relevant, then I figure in this field, you figure you are just as smart.

'I'm discounting claims that UFOs contain aliens. Why would they appear only to cranks and weirdos?

I am sorry, but that^^^^^^ is an opinion. An opinion on a subject he sure as hell is not an expert on. I don't care how much you claimed he is an expert on UFOs and ETs, he is not! For that reason, I don't put his opinion above anyone else. And for him to dismissed it completely because they only appear to "cranks and weirdos" is arrogance. Another reason why I don't put more weight on his opinion regarding the subject than anyone else.

How so? He has the knowledge to know what propulsion systems can do the trip, he spends his life trying to understand this stuff with a University at his beck and call. He has worked on Alien physiology and as mentioned colluded with other great minds to come up with a likely scenarion for alien life under similar conditions to Earth.

How do you figure all this work in this very field accounts for nothing? Like I said, he discovered Hawking Radiation, a byproduct of a black hole, and the sort of power that is required to do things like make wormholes. He understood the principals of these major power sources so well that he defied conventional thinking to prove Hawking Radiation exists. He is already working with the hypotheses you and I are discussing. And paving the way.

He can sit there and talk about how it's theoretically possible to travel back in time until the cows come home, but until it's a reality, it shall remain just speculations. Here's his quote from the link you provided, Psyche.

'I have experimental evidence that time travel is not possible.

'I gave a party for time-travellers, but I didn't send out the invitations until after the party.

'I sat there a long time, but no one came.'

As you know, I am a skeptic of time travel. I should be happy with the fruitless outcome his little experiment. But I wouldn't dare completely dismiss it the way he did. This again show his arrogance. Even though time travel sound ridiculous to me, I am still open to the possibility. Even if the possibility is 0.0000000000000000000000000000001%.

What if in the future men somehow acquired the ability to time travel, they also discovered that their action would also alter the future. They did received his invitation but decided not to show up because it would change the future as they know it. Just because they didn't show up to his party doesn't mean it's an impossibility. I though he would be smart enough to come up with this possibility. Maybe he did, since he is much smarter than all of us, but the writer didn't put it in the story.

Since ETs only appear to the "cranks and weirdos", Nope! they don't exist.

Since no one showed up to my party, Nope! time travel is impossible.

^^^^^^quite arrogance, don't you think?

Well you know what, I do not believe anyone has, but he has studied the WOW! signal, and this is as close as one can come in the real world where evidence matters. When you put all what we really have on the table, he is the closest candidate we have.

This is your opinion and you are entitle to it. But do you really think everyone who've seen UFOs/ETs are liars? This is quite cynical. I don't see any reason to believe every single story is false.

Pucker up balloon boy. Because he is probably the smartest human of all time.

Are you not saying warp is just around the corner? But you are not cherry picking are you! ;)

Again, you are entitled to your opinion. He is a brilliant man, but I doubt he is the smartest of all time. Hell, I don't think he is even the smartest now. How do you measure who is the smartest anyway? I think it's quite disrespectful to the many brilliant minds all over the world who are doing amazing things in their own right. He is a "weird looking scientist with a brilliant mind", I am sure the press love it. A brief history of time is not all time.

I will kiss his ass when he make time travel a reality.

BS. Go ahead, name one.

That is just arrogance, and in my opinion a lie in order to flamebait. Not to mention something of a joke. And nothing honest about that statement at all. Not one thing.

Regarding the subject of ETs and UFOs? you damn right there are better sources than Dr Hawking. What about Jim Oberg? I am sure Oberg can identify space debris better than Hawking. What about MacGuffin? With all the info he provided, I sure as hell gonna take his opinion over Hawking. What about you, Psyche? even though you're a skeptic, you've read enough on the ETs/UFOs cases to be able to tell him a thing or two. Remember, this ain't physics and mathematics.

They make that claim, I do not believe it. In fact I think it shows poor judgement to believe it.

That is where you logic took you? Really? I think you are being deliberately obtuse.

dang.jpeg

And you know how you said above "To us they are all Chimps" well you are wrong about that too. You do not even look at zoology do you? One Chimp in history did have a Bipedal gait. He was bald, and looked very human like. He had no desire for female chimps, but took a powerful interest in human females. So much so that he had to be separated from some. He has been a focus of intense study and interest. His name is Oliver. Have you heard about him? He kinda blows your sentence out of the water. Many thought he was a human-chimp hybrid, but DNA revealed that he is 100% Chimp.

2880.gif

Oliver's got good taste doesn't he? Maybe human females smell better than chimp. :lol: This kind of prove my point, actually.

No matter how smart Oliver might be, we still treat him like a chimp. If he wanted some human females, why not let him have some? why do we got to be mean and force female chimps on him? :D If you get a chance to play with Oliver, Psyche. In the back of your mind, would you think "this guy could rip my head clean off at anytime"? To us, he'll always remain an unpredictable wild animal.

Another ridiculous thing to say. Can you really not fathom why the smartest man in the world would be a good individual for an Aliens species, be they advanced or not? Do you only see humans in one direction? That we are here to speak out, show others, and pave the way? Have you no idea what being a student is? If we are dealing with an advanced species, would you not try communications with the individual that is most likely to understand you?

Nah, this chimp will do. My, that is not sounding very intelligent!

If ETs want to share their knowledge with human, then yes, Hawking would be a damn good candidate. If they dont want to let the rest of the world know, then "hicks in the wood" is the perfect choice. Can you imagine if Hawking come out and said "I've been abducted by ETs, they're here, they exist!" You would believe him, wouldn't you? And so would most of the world, I hope. They would be exposed. But since they don't want the world to know but at the same time want specimens for their experiments, then the hicks is the perfect choice. Who would believe the hicks? The "weirdos" have no credibility as compared to someone like Hawking. Who they want depend on their intentions, not us.

Edited by SwampgasBalloonBoy

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What an extraordinary thing to say. It does seem extraordinarily arrogant to describe every single person who's ever had an experience with UFOs as a crank or a Wierdo. I'd really thought better of him, I thought that he wasn't the kind of arrogant "populariser of science" like Richard Dawkins. And "'Evidence that intelligent life is very short-lived is that we don't seem to have been visited by extra terrestrials"? Sorry? Does that make anys ense at al? We haven't (as far as he is concerned) been visited by extra Terrestrials, so that's evidence that intellignt life is very short lived? However does he draw that conclusion? :unsure2:

I agree with Frank.

I did not take short lived to mean that either, Lets face it, if intelligence has been around far longer tan we, we would not have to be in contact to know it is there. I see it as kind of a spin of from the Drake Equation, or the Fermi paradox.

He is the smartest man in the world. It probably pays to have a second think about most things he says.

Edited by psyche101

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I agree with Frank.

I did not take short lived to mean that either, Lets face it, if intelligence has been around far longer tan we, we would not have to be in contact to know it is there.

But how would we know that?

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This is another example of a crap thread where people who know very little about close encounters, alien abduction, and UFOs need to make a huge fuss over aliens. If there is nothing to aliens then why bother? :yes:

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because, and we can both agree of the sentiment if not the direction the finger is being pointed, ignorance must be fought, no matter what.

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ok guys.. bit of a hypothetical for you..

yes we can pretty much agree there is other life out there in the universe..

but.. what if we are the most advanced life out there at this moment..

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The real question for me is not are some UFOs ETs but who are the occupants? That's what I moved on to.

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The real question for me is not are some UFOs ETs but who are the occupants? That's what I moved on to.

Even though through all these years and thousands of sightings there has never been a single shred of PROOF?.........

o.O

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But how would we know that?

By doing what we do, looking an listening. Everywhere we have looked, there is squat, and outside of that is a freaking long way away and therefore of little consequence to us or "them". And too far to zip across to, even in Bob Lazars sports saucers.

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This is another example of a crap thread where people who know very little about close encounters, alien abduction, and UFOs need to make a huge fuss over aliens. If there is nothing to aliens then why bother? :yes:

So this too, explains your participation?

You seem to be struggling with the concept of Aliens, that means "not from here". Who said they do not exist? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller? Rational people say there is not evidence to say we have been visited by Aliens, not that Aliens do not exist. You should read this forum, it sounds like you would learn a great deal.

You only seem to know what you regurgitate from woo woo sites going by your posts. Some might consider that less than nothing.

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The real question for me is not are some UFOs ETs but who are the occupants? That's what I moved on to.

I doubt you are the only one out there in woo woo land too.

All you people that know, but cannot prove anything. Trying to sell faith. Good God man, that is old hat! Many unhappy customers who invested in faith these days too.

ok guys.. bit of a hypothetical for you..

yes we can pretty much agree there is other life out there in the universe..

but.. what if we are the most advanced life out there at this moment..

Or even at the same level. Seems just as possible as advanced to me.

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By doing what we do, looking an listening. Everywhere we have looked, there is squat, and outside of that is a freaking long way away and therefore of little consequence to us or "them". And too far to zip across to, even in Bob Lazars sports saucers.

again, you're saying we'd see them if they were zipping about out there? i thought we'd covered that many times before, and I've tried to explain that there might be many reasons why we might not see them; and again, why do you assume that they'd want to send us a message? You usually say it would be very rude to spy on us without saying Howdy, but really, that's very anthropomphric, isn't it, assuming that they'd have the same notions of what was rude and what wasn't to us?

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again, you're saying we'd see them if they were zipping about out there?

Again, yes.

i thought we'd covered that many times before, and I've tried to explain that there might be many reasons why we might not see them;

You have protested many times before, you have never covered off on the subject. You said that "they" Could hide in the asteroid field, but you have been shown that's not doable because we analyse it and scan it all the time. A mothership has to have a significant power signature. If it runs of fairy dust, and it only 6 inches across, I'll say OK to that one. You also claim magical cloaking tech, which they do not seem to use when spotted hovering over Belgium or the Whitehouse, which is apparently a ridiculous thing for black ops to do, but just fine for aliens to do, that have been doing their darndest to hide from us for over 60 years. Not much logic in there LV.

I think the closest you have come is plagiarising the idea of self replicating Robots. which is I agree a plausible concept, but no proof we have even seen anything like it, and the intelligence you imply above for secrecy does not factor to Robots. And I do not approve of re-writing what every small records we do have just to shoehorn ET into the picture. I really do not understand what that is supposed to accomplish.

and again, why do you assume that they'd want to send us a message? You usually say it would be very rude to spy on us without saying Howdy, but really, that's very anthropomphric, isn't it, assuming that they'd have the same notions of what was rude and what wasn't to us?

We are talking first contact are we not? How is spying contact? Do you put any rationale behind your proposals lately?

And not, it is not anthropomorphic, it is logical. I said signal all the time, and not because of your spy on us "Prime Directive" from Star Trek, that the captains broke every other week anyway!!! So much for the Prime Bloody Directive!!!

Of the top of my head, some points "for" communications:

Little power required.

Failure is a small setback

No risk to life

No risk to equipment (as in you do not have to build a billion dollar spaceship to get there)

Travel at the speed of light

Small resources required

No risk to environments

Any hostile contact can be considered at a distance

Fast

Easy to build

Little training required

First contact could be initiated with many worlds at once, which would otherwise literally take centuries to reach by ship - so volume

Time is not a factor. You can send a signal that take 100 years to reach it's destination, and wait for a reply.

Now there is over a dozen points, just straight up. What advantages does space travel provide over and above this?

Edited by psyche101

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My theory is:

In a world with a universe so large that we can't even conclude its size, it might as well be infinite. With an infinity expansive universe with 100,000,000,000,0000,000,000,000+ stars, there's bound to be life somewhere.

We're constantly finding new planets in our OWN solar system that are capable of supporting life just as we know it alone. Imagine if there are life forms that don't need the basic elements to survive that life on earth needs such as Oxygen. That opens up possibilities beyond our comprehension.

I feel that we have been visited and still are.

Oddly enough, I believe they even helped us at some point in time and either forgot about us or gave up on us after witnessing how uncivilized we are... and quick to turn on our own kind. Maybe we're all just failed projects. Maybe they monitor us in our skies just to kind of "check in to see if we changed" every now and then or something. Maybe they want or harvest unknown resources from earth.

I witnessed 2 really strange UFO's in my life both within the last year. Who knows what they're up to or possibly planning if anything.

Edited by Ghostsstory

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I think everyone will agree that aliens ARE likely to exist....

What is in debate here is if some of the aliens are visiting Earth or not....especially since there seem to be so many sightings of weird craft in our skies (sometimes even landed or even with humanoid occupants sighted)....

As to the debate/argument, perhaps die-hard skeptics and die-hard ETH'ers should stop arguing about if ETH is correct or not and shift the argument to 'WHY are we UNABLE to AQUIRE PROOF'?

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As to the debate/argument, perhaps die-hard skeptics and die-hard ETH'ers should stop arguing about if ETH is correct or not and shift the argument to 'WHY are we UNABLE to AQUIRE PROOF'?

Both camps have their theories on that. Some skeptics think that since aliens have likely not been here then there would be little to no evidence to acquire, while some ETH'ers like to employ the super duper stealth technology argument or the infamous government cover up. Either way, the lack of verifiable evidence is a veritable thorn in the side of the ETH. On the other hand, if proof does exist, it will see the light of day eventually. I'm fairly certain that alien visitation isn't the kind of thing that can be kept secret for long, certainly not 60+ years.

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If we are being visited, it's being kept secret. As the message above points out, it is unlikely that this is a government secret: governments are just no good at keeping stuff that important secret.

So the aliens are hiding for some reason. Are they afraid of us? That seems preposterous. Are they highly ethical beings who are concerned for our well being and so conceal themselves for our good? That too seems preposterous. Beings of such ethical standards would be compassionate and in here helping us with our diseases and poverty and so on.

I have to say that those who suppose we are being visited have a huge amount of explaining to do, and they have not done it successfully. All they offer is a few glib rationalizations.

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Both camps have their theories on that. Some skeptics think that since aliens have likely not been here then there would be little to no evidence to acquire, while some ETH'ers like to employ the super duper stealth technology argument or the infamous government cover up. Either way, the lack of verifiable evidence is a veritable thorn in the side of the ETH. On the other hand, if proof does exist, it will see the light of day eventually. I'm fairly certain that alien visitation isn't the kind of thing that can be kept secret for long, certainly not 60+ years.

I'd have to agree with your assesment!

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We have no experience in contacting civilizations on other worlds. It seems unwise to insist that those who presumably have such experience follow what we imagine to be the correct ethical course in such matters. The option of allowing us grow on our own for a time, and to learn to care for ourselves, rather than swooping in and solving all our problems for us, making us dependent upon them may seem to extraterrestrials to be the superior ethical alternative.

The secret of an extraterrestrial presence at Earth has scarcely been kept for over sixty years. if it had been kept we wouldn't have as many indications of an extraterrestrial presence as we do. That we do not have what most of a scientific bent are inclined to accept as proof should not be too surprising. It is unlikely that Earth governments would be eager to tell all they know of such matters. It would be a dreadful admission for them to make, that a superior civilization can come and go, doing as it pleases on this planet, and we are powerless to prevent or control this. Extraterrestrials may allow the current ambiguous situation to continue, at least for the time being, for reasons suggested in the first paragraph.

Edited by bison

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We have no experience in contacting civilizations on other worlds.

No, I agree, we do not, but if ET is here and colluding with the Government, than this stament must be wrong.

Is ET here, and in contact with higher ups? I say no, he is not, and if that is the case, the above stament rings true. Do you agree with this?

It seems unwise to insist that those who presumably have such experience follow what we imagine to be the correct ethical course in such matters.

Why would convergeant evolution be specific to this planet? Considering we are looking for "Life as we know it" on earth like worlds" it seems first contact might well be somewhat recognisable?

The option of allowing us grow on our own for a time, and to learn to care for ourselves, rather than swooping in and solving all our problems for us, making us dependent upon them may seem to extraterrestrials to be the superior ethical alternative.

And they might never have heard of us.

If this is the case, guidance would still be in order, if a benevolent species, they could at least point out some dead ends, and save us some time, if they are advanced and hostile, then the entire things does not make sense, as "they" would have no reason to hide. What is even a million primates going to against one pathogen in the atmosphere? Die and decompose.

The secret of an extraterrestrial presence at Earth has scarcely been kept for over sixty years. if it had been kept we wouldn't have as many indications of an extraterrestrial presence as we do.

We do not have indications on earth, we have some suspicions about space yet to be confirmed. I agree that there is real work on ET, but it has never been covered up. Sagan Drake Fermi, Hawking, Kaku, all of them are very open about ET life, always have been, and are at the very forefront of the phenomena. I am more of the opinion than ever that the military BS was just a bunch of war games.

That we do not have what most of a scientific bent are inclined to accept as proof should not be too surprising. It is unlikely that Earth governments would be eager to tell all they know of such matters. It would be a dreadful admission for them to make, that a superior civilization can come and go, doing as it pleases on this planet, and we are powerless to prevent or control this. Extraterrestrials may allow the current ambiguous situation to continue, at least for the time being, for reasons suggested in the first paragraph.

Because it is not proof, There is a definition of proof, and what has been presented as "ET evidence" does not cut the mustard. If we had proof, the Sagans, Hawkings and all other listed above would not be keeping it secret, and they would be over the moon to have something like that to study. What scientist does not want to announce "We have found Extra Terrestrial Life"?????? It's a history making statement. Did they hide exoplanets? the AH1 rock? the WOW! signal? Or anything that even might qualify as life??

Some Government would be over the moon to see the US in that position!!! And every one of them can monitor space.

No one country does it all. Exports are what this globe survives upon. We trade, and each country is better at something. Japan is known for high tech, America for big cars and cutting edge technology, Germany for machinery, and Australia for Athletes :D. We are used to someone being better at something, that is how we roll.

Edited by psyche101

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Again, yes.

You have protested many times before, you have never covered off on the subject. You said that "they" Could hide in the asteroid field, but you have been shown that's not doable because we analyse it and scan it all the time. A mothership has to have a significant power signature. If it runs of fairy dust, and it only 6 inches across, I'll say OK to that one. You also claim magical cloaking tech, which they do not seem to use when spotted hovering over Belgium or the Whitehouse, which is apparently a ridiculous thing for black ops to do, but just fine for aliens to do, that have been doing their darndest to hide from us for over 60 years. Not much logic in there LV.

I think the closest you have come is plagiarising the idea of self replicating Robots. which is I agree a plausible concept, but no proof we have even seen anything like it, and the intelligence you imply above for secrecy does not factor to Robots. And I do not approve of re-writing what every small records we do have just to shoehorn ET into the picture. I really do not understand what that is supposed to accomplish.

We are talking first contact are we not? How is spying contact? Do you put any rationale behind your proposals lately?

And not, it is not anthropomorphic, it is logical. I said signal all the time, and not because of your spy on us "Prime Directive" from Star Trek, that the captains broke every other week anyway!!! So much for the Prime Bloody Directive!!!

You're doing it again. I don't know whether you do do it deliberately. (Just like the 'robots' at Rosewell that you keep insisting I'm talking about). I'm not talking about anything to do with Star trek. I'm talking about pricniples of scientific research, and a principle of scientific research is that you don't interfere with what you're studying, since that will inevitably influence what you're studying.

Of the top of my head, some points "for" communications:

Little power required.

Failure is a small setback

No risk to life

No risk to equipment (as in you do not have to build a billion dollar spaceship to get there)

Travel at the speed of light

Small resources required

No risk to environments

Any hostile contact can be considered at a distance

Fast

Easy to build

Little training required

First contact could be initiated with many worlds at once, which would otherwise literally take centuries to reach by ship - so volume

Time is not a factor. You can send a signal that take 100 years to reach it's destination, and wait for a reply.

Now there is over a dozen points, just straight up. What advantages does space travel provide over and above this?

Are you talking, just so we can get this straight, about specifically communicating with Earth, or a generic kind of "is anyone out there?" signal that they'd send out in all directions in case some likely planets hear it?(Like the WoW signal, perhaps). That might be a way to intiate contact if you wanted to specifically contact new worlds & new civilisations, but if you were primarily interested in exploring and studying new planets for their own interest, then nothing would beat going there and seeing for yourself, would it? They could just ask us to provide them with everything we know, as you've suggested before? No, because they'd be studying us along with everything else. And you wouldn't do that very objectively if you estbalished a 'special relationship' with them, would it? That wouldn't be objective.

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