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tendo

Looking for CONVINCING evidence of ghosts

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never enough evidence/proof for someone who chooses not to believe... simple enough...... have you asked her what it would take for her to believe rather than trying to smother her in pictures and stories that are so easily believed not to be true/real

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My girlfriend doesn't believe in the supernatural at all. She's never experienced it herself, and any evidence she's seen has been quite easily faked or explained. Does anyone have any real, convincing evidence?

My advice - listen to your girlfriend. She's right. The sooner you figure that out you can get on with your life AND quit worrying about the paranormal. If she's an intelligent skeptic, then she will agree that there isn't anything thats been posted on this site, to date that is evidence of anything other than wishful thinking, pareidolia, hysteria, and confirmation bias.

How about tell her to sign up and see for herself? Obviously you are biased and going to be cherry-picking evidence anyway. To me the plethora of NON-evidence for the paranormal (fakes, mistakes, ignorance) is just as convincing as the lack of credible evidence. She should come see it all and decide for herself.

Edited by orangepeaceful79

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never enough evidence/proof for someone who chooses not to believe... simple enough...... have you asked her what it would take for her to believe rather than trying to smother her in pictures and stories that are so easily believed not to be true/real

I think you have that backwards.

People do not choose to not believe, they choose to believe.

Others prefer to " know ", and not to " believe ".......There is a very big difference.

Blind Faith : belief without true understanding, perception, or discrimination

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One of the principles of a discussion forum is that you bring evidence *here*. That way you can put in your own words what impressed you and why, and the readers can judge how much weight your opinion should be given, and if it is worth visiting the site for further investigation.

So may I politely ask, could you or Elljay please offer a small quote of the most compelling evidence at that site, or at least summarise what they found and (much more importantly) how they applied some semblance of decent methodology?

Either way, when I have time I may go and take a long hard look, but I'm guessing this hasn't passed 'peer review' - otherwise I think I would have heard of it...

Yes, it looks at the wave function of sounds of various materials being 'rapped' or 'tapped' upon. Rapping is defined as a single strike to a surface by another object. It shows that with every case observed, the sound wave function starts at its highest amplitude, and gradually becomes lower. They then observed rapping sounds reported at several sites in which poltergeists were reported, as rapping is a common 'symptom' of these areas. They then recorded the rapping which is done here. Again, the sound is a single strike to a surface by another object, the only difference in the case of the poltergeist sites is that the objects being struck are a mystery. In all of these sounds, the rapping sounds' amplitudes started low, worked their way up to highest amplitude, and then lowered again. This goes against the findings of every other preliminary wave recording. The only other wave they'd found which followed this pattern, as far as noise goes, is caused by seismic activity. The study does not draw any final conclusions on this. It may be seismic activity at the poltergeist sites, but why so quietly, why only in those homes and not in others, and why so frequently, with no seeming correlation to fault lines? It was done quite well, in my opinion, and described perfectly well so it may be replicated by anyone with access to a reported poltergeist site.

Going into grave yards should only be to pay respects to loved ones.

The phrase " Rest in Peace " should say it all.

This is a matter of opinion, though. I think paying respect to the dead should be done merely for respect of the living, so the relatives do not need to see the memories of their loved ones disrespected. My goal is, one could argue, to pay a great respect to the dead by spending a few hours there in pursuit of getting the site left alone indefinitely if I can get the information publicized well enough.

never enough evidence/proof for someone who chooses not to believe... simple enough...... have you asked her what it would take for her to believe rather than trying to smother her in pictures and stories that are so easily believed not to be true/real

&

My advice - listen to your girlfriend. She's right. The sooner you figure that out you can get on with your life AND quit worrying about the paranormal. If she's an intelligent skeptic, then she will agree that there isn't anything thats been posted on this site, to date that is evidence of anything other than wishful thinking, pareidolia, hysteria, and confirmation bias.

How about tell her to sign up and see for herself? Obviously you are biased and going to be cherry-picking evidence anyway. To me the plethora of NON-evidence for the paranormal (fakes, mistakes, ignorance) is just as convincing as the lack of credible evidence. She should come see it all and decide for herself.

I am not smothering her, I asked her, she said convincing evidence. I am not trying to prove it exists, nor am I truly convinced that it is ghosts. As I've said several times over in this thread, it is the CHANCE that it might be possible.

I am also not cherry picking evidence. I am looking at it all. I admitted to her that 99% of what is out there, if not more, is total bs done for attention, money, fame, or just for the lulz. I am a very unbiased person. I also don't need to 'get on with my life.' My focus on the paranormal, if you can even call it that, is nothing more than an interest. I pay much more time and put in much more effort into practical, rational things in life, such as school, work, academic pursuits, leisure activities, etc. Your comment was so full of presumed thoughts that were pulled seemingly from nowhere, and in the future you should try to really make sure you're hitting the mark on your assumptions.

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I think you have that backwards.

People do not choose to not believe, they choose to believe.

Others prefer to " know ", and not to " believe ".......There is a very big difference.

Blind Faith : belief without true understanding, perception, or discrimination

I have to disagree. People cannot choose what they believe. The brain would even disregard solid proof if the belief was strong enough and would upset the balance of the person's psyche. Other than that, I know what distinction you're trying to make. I am of the 'Mulder' school of thought. I want to believe, and have found some evidence which says to me that there's a chance of these things existing, and I've experienced some things which I might consider proof, but they're completely anecdotal, and too easily explained away by other means, demoting them back down to evidence. She is of the 'Scully' school of thought. She will not believe until she is given pure scientific proof.

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This is a matter of opinion, though. I think paying respect to the dead should be done merely for respect of the living, so the relatives do not need to see the memories of their loved ones disrespected. My goal is, one could argue, to pay a great respect to the dead by spending a few hours there in pursuit of getting the site left alone indefinitely if I can get the information publicized well enough.

Not to be mean but good luck with that. I've been commenting for years on a couple of mis-informed ghost stories, yet nothing is ever considered enough to get the story dismissed. Even in the stories of Katy's Church itself it has been pointed out time and again that the information is false and there is no story... Yet people keep retelling it or claiming their own experiences.

Sometimes it seems like it's harder to prove a haunt false than it is to prove it's true.

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Not to be mean but good luck with that. I've been commenting for years on a couple of mis-informed ghost stories, yet nothing is ever considered enough to get the story dismissed. Even in the stories of Katy's Church itself it has been pointed out time and again that the information is false and there is no story... Yet people keep retelling it or claiming their own experiences.

Sometimes it seems like it's harder to prove a haunt false than it is to prove it's true.

You're right; people want the excitement of a haunt. And those who've experienced things because of the power of suggestion will claim vehemently that what they saw was real.

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Yes, it looks at the wave function of sounds of various materials being 'rapped' or 'tapped' upon. Rapping is defined as a single strike to a surface by another object. It shows that with every case observed, the sound wave function starts at its highest amplitude, and gradually becomes lower. They then observed rapping sounds reported at several sites in which poltergeists were reported, as rapping is a common 'symptom' of these areas. They then recorded the rapping which is done here. Again, the sound is a single strike to a surface by another object, the only difference in the case of the poltergeist sites is that the objects being struck are a mystery. In all of these sounds, the rapping sounds' amplitudes started low, worked their way up to highest amplitude, and then lowered again. This goes against the findings of every other preliminary wave recording. The only other wave they'd found which followed this pattern, as far as noise goes, is caused by seismic activity. The study does not draw any final conclusions on this. It may be seismic activity at the poltergeist sites, but why so quietly, why only in those homes and not in others, and why so frequently, with no seeming correlation to fault lines? It was done quite well, in my opinion, and described perfectly well so it may be replicated by anyone with access to a reported poltergeist site.

Thanks tendo - you've raised yourself well above the average paranormal supporter by doing that! I salute you.. :D I have had a preliminary look at that pdf, and I have a very big problem with the words in bold - which is pretty much what the entire thing revolves around. I agree that it *looks* like they know what they are doing :P, but I think there are some major issues and some huge 'leaps of faith' in that report. I also note that the references are pretty well completely devoid of any real acoustics-analysis content from credible sources and the author claims no degree/doctorate or similar in acoustics.. Plus the report has not been peer reviewed by (or published in) any credible acoustics-related journal - instead it appears only in the 'Society of Psychical Research' - not exactly a high impact journal... The problem is, the entire report is based on a premise of acoustic waveform analysis and yet it has been published at one of a multitude of similar self-publishing societies in a field that has no relevant expertise.. and one that is known to publish pretty much anything sent to them, and could just possibly be seen as having a bias..

I'd also make the following casual observation - that report is INCREDIBLY wordy, given what should be relatively simple content.. That's not a good sign - sometimes people do that deliberately to make it seem comprehensive and also make it less easy to critique. However, until I have time to go thru it properly, I'll have to leave it at that. Right now I am engaged on other things relating to imaging analysis, but once I get that one finished I will try to find some time to look at this report in more detail.

Sorry to be a naysayer, but I don't think you have found the holy grail.. But I will be back to go into it a bit more deeply.

Again, I applaud you for your considered approach though, so keep it up!

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I have to disagree. People cannot choose what they believe. The brain would even disregard solid proof if the belief was strong enough and would upset the balance of the person's psyche. Other than that, I know what distinction you're trying to make. I am of the 'Mulder' school of thought. I want to believe, and have found some evidence which says to me that there's a chance of these things existing, and I've experienced some things which I might consider proof, but they're completely anecdotal, and too easily explained away by other means, demoting them back down to evidence. She is of the 'Scully' school of thought. She will not believe until she is given pure scientific proof.

I want to believe in Bigfoot, and other Cryptids. I would love for them to be found real. I do not believe at all, I know they do not exist. I would be happy if I were found wrong one day.

Same with Ghosts, Aliens visiting Earth, etc.

Same goes for Religion, I want to " believe " in something pretty bad. Thing is, I can not just blindly believe in things.

So, yes, people can choose what they want to believe. Even if they do not want to.

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BTW.. this is worth reading regarding the principle aspect of Colvin's report- try the 'blind' test for yourselves..

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Thanks tendo - you've raised yourself well above the average paranormal supporter by doing that! I salute you.. :D I have had a preliminary look at that pdf, and I have a very big problem with the words in bold - which is pretty much what the entire thing revolves around. I agree that it *looks* like they know what they are doing :P, but I think there are some major issues and some huge 'leaps of faith' in that report. I also note that the references are pretty well completely devoid of any real acoustics-analysis content from credible sources and the author claims no degree/doctorate or similar in acoustics.. Plus the report has not been peer reviewed by (or published in) any credible acoustics-related journal - instead it appears only in the 'Society of Psychical Research' - not exactly a high impact journal... The problem is, the entire report is based on a premise of acoustic waveform analysis and yet it has been published at one of a multitude of similar self-publishing societies in a field that has no relevant expertise.. and one that is known to publish pretty much anything sent to them, and could just possibly be seen as having a bias..

I'd also make the following casual observation - that report is INCREDIBLY wordy, given what should be relatively simple content.. That's not a good sign - sometimes people do that deliberately to make it seem comprehensive and also make it less easy to critique. However, until I have time to go thru it properly, I'll have to leave it at that. Right now I am engaged on other things relating to imaging analysis, but once I get that one finished I will try to find some time to look at this report in more detail.

Sorry to be a naysayer, but I don't think you have found the holy grail.. But I will be back to go into it a bit more deeply.

Again, I applaud you for your considered approach though, so keep it up!

Thanks for the support! I'm glad you actually took a look at what I said. I know it isn't the best, but it's a start! I am a psych major and have had to take two classes on how to critique journal articles, and even write them (and it sucks) so I know a bit about what I'm looking for, and it did seem too wordy, as well as lacking any real expertise (as you've said), but it DID make clear how it did what it did so that further studies may be done. That I enjoyed.

Also, thanks for that other article, I'll read it asap!

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BTW.. this is worth reading regarding the principle aspect of Colvin's report- try the 'blind' test for yourselves..

I passed! Well, that is, I knew 3/4! That's a great counter-experiment, as well! I liked it a lot, it was quite well done. He caught that the tester didn't mention any filtering or why there was or was not any mentioned.

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I am not smothering her, I asked her, she said convincing evidence. I am not trying to prove it exists, nor am I truly convinced that it is ghosts. As I've said several times over in this thread, it is the CHANCE that it might be possible.

I am also not cherry picking evidence. I am looking at it all. I admitted to her that 99% of what is out there, if not more, is total bs done for attention, money, fame, or just for the lulz. I am a very unbiased person. I also don't need to 'get on with my life.' My focus on the paranormal, if you can even call it that, is nothing more than an interest. I pay much more time and put in much more effort into practical, rational things in life, such as school, work, academic pursuits, leisure activities, etc. Your comment was so full of presumed thoughts that were pulled seemingly from nowhere, and in the future you should try to really make sure you're hitting the mark on your assumptions.

Yeah I probably was being a bit of a presumptive ass there. It happens sometimes. I apologize.

I am curious however as to why you are so concerned that you "enlighten" your girlfriend's perspective. What difference does it make to you whether she believes or not? It just made me wonder why you have a stake in it, unless it was because you believe yourself. I'd like to understand.

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Yeah I probably was being a bit of a presumptive ass there. It happens sometimes. I apologize.

I am curious however as to why you are so concerned that you "enlighten" your girlfriend's perspective. What difference does it make to you whether she believes or not? It just made me wonder why you have a stake in it, unless it was because you believe yourself. I'd like to understand.

Oh, it just came up in conversation. It's come up maybe two or three times for the 1+ year we've been together. It's not a huge concern, but when we discuss things (we are both scientifically minded psych majors) we like to find evidence/support for our claims. We've both successfully changed the other's mind on several different topics ranging in subject since we've known each other simply by finding studies or several examples regarding the topic. It's fun, engaging, and we both enjoy the debate and search for knowledge. I apologize for snapping at you, I'd been having a less than great day, haha, normally I wouldn't have even been concerned with such presumptions because I KNOW most believers in this stuff are crazy and need validation. That's not to say you're one of those, that is to say that it's understandable that you'd assume I was one. :)

Edited by tendo

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Oh, it just came up in conversation. It's come up maybe two or three times for the 1+ year we've been together. It's not a huge concern, but when we discuss things (we are both scientifically minded psych majors) we like to find evidence/support for our claims. We've both successfully changed the other's mind on several different topics ranging in subject since we've known each other simply by finding studies or several examples regarding the topic. It's fun, engaging, and we both enjoy the debate and search for knowledge. I apologize for snapping at you, I'd been having a less than great day, haha, normally I wouldn't have even been concerned with such presumptions because I KNOW most believers in this stuff are crazy and need validation. That's not to say you're one of those, that is to say that it's understandable that you'd assume I was one. :)

No worries. I think things are sorted out now. I'd still encourage you to encourage her to join up. I am definitely on the skeptical side of most of what is here on the site and it is still my favorite place on the internet. So much to read and do. Cool people too. Have a good one.

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You won't find evidence on the internet.

So much Sarcasm here lol.

OT: [media] http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=X2lGPT2J1cc [media]

This is a very interesting video and well thought out experiment. In fact you could even try it out yourself if she still doesn't believe in it. But i personally wouldn't recommend it because you don't know what your contacting. Whether it be a Ghost/Alien/Demon etc., or even your unconscious mind producing these effects.

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I've actually heard of that before. It's too bad that all the footage is done in such a way that it could easily be the members or mechanisms making the tables move like that. Also, that they're all laughing about it, none of them show any concern makes it seem unrealistic. The first group looked like a bad infomercial. Regardless of all of this, if you actually do it, it depends on your initial stance as to how you interpret the findings. If you're a skeptic, you will think it is the expectation and is just the ideomotor response, if you believe in spirits, you may think some entity latched on to that information in their minds or read it or heard it and was just opportunistic in appearing.

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It's well after midnight here in Vietnam; I think I will refrain from posting about ghosts until more propitious time.

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It's well after midnight here in Vietnam; I think I will refrain from posting about ghosts until more propitious time.

That is not a bad idea at all!

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Hello everyone. None of you know me as I just discovered this site today. Fell in love with it. Tenbo, while I can't offer you valid evidence outside my own experiances, I can give you a theory your girlfriend may accept more readily. I am 17 and have lived in the middle east and different parts of asia for about five years.

A lot of the time I spent there with my family was a cultural study. Something to be said about areas like where we weree (Zarqa Jordan if you want to be exact), is that the people there are very attached to their ways of life. Their hoomes might havve modern conveniances, but the traditions their ancestors have given them are still the same as they were hundreds of years ago. You might thi k Im straying off topic, Im not. In a summarized version of whats in my head, have you ever heard the story of how satan became Satan? In a rounded version of what I know, before god created mankind, he had created angels and a race called Jinn. Jinn had the same free will humans have. Which means the inclination towards good or evil. These beings exist on earth, though on a different "plain" I guess you would call it. They can see us, and while we can't see them it is possible to interact with them. You probably think Im full of it, but its true in my humble opinion. A common misconception is that Jinns are demons, but they aren't. The easiest and most common way to explain it is "smokeless fire formed into thinking living beings". Oddly enough, the accounts and stories for lack of better words even explain things like "haunted" houses. Because by divine rule Jinns are not allowed to live where people do. Though less religious ones (or more malicious) tend to ignore this. So the law abiding ones tend to take up residence in unoccupied houses or even old caves and forests. Another thing is that they are not "spirits" or ghosts, but living breathing beings that work and love andhave children and die like people do. Again you probably think I am full of it, but maybee your GF would be more open to the idead of a paralel yet intertwineing world rather than a spirit world. I hope this helps and if you or anyone else has a question Ill be happy to answer them as well as i can. Also please forgive any misspellings/spacings. Im typing this on my phone.

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Hello everyone. None of you know me as I just discovered this site today. Fell in love with it. Tenbo, while I can't offer you valid evidence outside my own experiances, I can give you a theory your girlfriend may accept more readily. I am 17 and have lived in the middle east and different parts of asia for about five years.

A lot of the time I spent there with my family was a cultural study. Something to be said about areas like where we weree (Zarqa Jordan if you want to be exact), is that the people there are very attached to their ways of life. Their hoomes might havve modern conveniances, but the traditions their ancestors have given them are still the same as they were hundreds of years ago. You might thi k Im straying off topic, Im not. In a summarized version of whats in my head, have you ever heard the story of how satan became Satan? In a rounded version of what I know, before god created mankind, he had created angels and a race called Jinn. Jinn had the same free will humans have. Which means the inclination towards good or evil. These beings exist on earth, though on a different "plain" I guess you would call it. They can see us, and while we can't see them it is possible to interact with them. You probably think Im full of it, but its true in my humble opinion. A common misconception is that Jinns are demons, but they aren't. The easiest and most common way to explain it is "smokeless fire formed into thinking living beings". Oddly enough, the accounts and stories for lack of better words even explain things like "haunted" houses. Because by divine rule Jinns are not allowed to live where people do. Though less religious ones (or more malicious) tend to ignore this. So the law abiding ones tend to take up residence in unoccupied houses or even old caves and forests. Another thing is that they are not "spirits" or ghosts, but living breathing beings that work and love andhave children and die like people do. Again you probably think I am full of it, but maybee your GF would be more open to the idead of a paralel yet intertwineing world rather than a spirit world. I hope this helps and if you or anyone else has a question Ill be happy to answer them as well as i can. Also please forgive any misspellings/spacings. Im typing this on my phone.

I am quite familiar with that tale, as I am a christian. However, she is agnostic ranging on atheistic, so she would be less accepting of this. She Might buy into the parallel plane thing, but barely, and because it cannot be scientifically proven or evidenced to exist, she will not give it any more than credit than a folk tale. I think that this explains it quite well, and do think that in most cases it isn't what we consider a 'spirit' but rather some other entity, whether that be angelic, demonic, or otherwise. Thanks for the input!

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Alot of us UM folk (i love speaking for other people, my bad) view many of these subjects as "folk tales". But we are detectives trying to prove them or to debunk them. I think of it as interactive Folklore.

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In a rounded version of what I know, before god created mankind, he had created angels and a race called Jinn. Jinn had the same free will humans have. Which means the inclination towards good or evil. These beings exist on earth, though on a different "plain" I guess you would call it. They can see us, and while we can't see them it is possible to interact with them. You probably think Im full of it, but its true in my humble opinion. A common misconception is that Jinns are demons, but they aren't. The easiest and most common way to explain it is "smokeless fire formed into thinking living beings". Oddly enough, the accounts and stories for lack of better words even explain things like "haunted" houses. Because by divine rule Jinns are not allowed to live where people do. Though less religious ones (or more malicious) tend to ignore this. So the law abiding ones tend to take up residence in unoccupied houses or even old caves and forests. Another thing is that they are not "spirits" or ghosts, but living breathing beings that work and love andhave children and die like people do. Again you probably think I am full of it, but maybee your GF would be more open to the idead of a paralel yet intertwineing world rather than a spirit world. I hope this helps and if you or anyone else has a question Ill be happy to answer them as well as i can.

Thanks for that; I learned a lot.

It seems most if not all cultures have something of this sort. If a Vietnamese encounters a Jinn, he will interpret it as a ghost. I think most Westerners will too. Whether they are as you describe or the spirits of the dead or merely our imaginations working too hard is a matter of interpretation. Maybe the various encounters represent cases of all three.

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Alot of us UM folk (i love speaking for other people, my bad) view many of these subjects as "folk tales". But we are detectives trying to prove them or to debunk them. I think of it as interactive Folklore.

I don't see how phenomena of this sort are scientifically demonstrable, or not. About all the scholar can do (in such a situation I don't think "scientist" works) is interview people who report experiences. This has been done over and over and over and not much has come of it.

One observation I would make is that there seem to be systematic cultural differences in the reported phenomena. Ghosts in the west wear sheets or are translucent people. Ghosts in Vietnam are entirely evil and are out to get you and put on a horrific aspect. Jinn are not really even ghosts but another sort of people living in a different plane. It appears to be a case of what we expect is what we see, and this of course makes it all seem like it may be psychological rather than real.

Still, living in Vietnam and talking to many that I would trust explicitly and are totally rational, if not even materialist Communists, who have had such experiences, one has to wonder. For one thing, the experiences are more of the Western sort than the horrific stuff the folklore contains, although sometimes otherwise.

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I don't see how phenomena of this sort are scientifically demonstrable, or not. About all the scholar can do (in such a situation I don't think "scientist" works) is interview people who report experiences. This has been done over and over and over and not much has come of it.

One observation I would make is that there seem to be systematic cultural differences in the reported phenomena. Ghosts in the west wear sheets or are translucent people. Ghosts in Vietnam are entirely evil and are out to get you and put on a horrific aspect. Jinn are not really even ghosts but another sort of people living in a different plane. It appears to be a case of what we expect is what we see, and this of course makes it all seem like it may be psychological rather than real.

Still, living in Vietnam and talking to many that I would trust explicitly and are totally rational, if not even materialist Communists, who have had such experiences, one has to wonder. For one thing, the experiences are more of the Western sort than the horrific stuff the folklore contains, although sometimes otherwise.

That's absolutely true. IIRC, there are numerous experiments where they have people stay overnight in a supposedly haunted place, telling them tales of what others have seen, and the guests come back with tales very similar to what they were told, and then the truth is revealed that this place isn't haunted and nobody has reported anything. The mind is so powerful it is ridiculous.

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