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docyabut2

'Peaceful' Minoans Surprisingly Warlike

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Minoan artifacts were first excavated more than a century ago, Molloy said, and archaeologists painted a picture of a peaceful civilization where war played little to no role. Molloy doubted these tales; Crete was home to a complex society that traded with major powers such as Egypt, he said. It seemed unlikely they could reach such heights entirely cooperatively, he added.

"As I looked for evidence for violence, warriors or war, it quickly became obvious that it could be found in a surprisingly wide range of places

http://www.livescience.com/26275-peaceful-minoans-surprisingly-warlike.html

Crete,(Atlantis) A unknown war with Athens was possiable.

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They were a maritime culture who controlled the seas at the height of their power, the tale of Atlantis never said where this war took place.

Plato

Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders.But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.

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The Egyptain priest does refered the war of Atlantis to the mythical kings of Athens around the 15 hundreds bc, and a earthquake flood of destuction.

At Tell el Dab'a in Egypt, pumice found at this location has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption.

Plato-

(This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus, such as Cecrops, and Erechtheus, and Erichthonius, and Erysichthon)

Plato-

(Where the Acropolis now is there was a fountain, which was choked by the earthquake, and has left only the few small streams which still exist in the vicinity, but in those days the fountain gave an abundant supply of water for all and of suitable temperature in summer and in winter. This is how they dwelt, being the guardians of their own citizens and the leaders of the Hellenes, who were their willing followers. And they took care to preserve the same number of men and women through all time, being so many as were required for warlike purposes, then as now-that is to say, about twenty thousand)

The legend tell us, that all the men of Athens voted for the gift of Poseidon and all the women, for the gift of Athena and because there was one woman more than the men, goddess Athena was selected and from her, the city took her name.

To defend the country from the Karian pirates from the sea and the Boeotians from the land, Kekrops, in order to manage better the population, distributed Attica in the following twelve sections: Aphidna, Brauron, Dekeleia, Epakria, Eleusis, Kekropia, Kephisius, Kytherus, Phalerus, Sphettus, Tetrapolis, Thorikus. He also ordered each man to cast a single stone and by counting the stones, it was found that they were twenty thousand inhabitants.

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This tends to happen; at first the culture is described in utopian terms (everyone would love to find an ancient utopia), but as more knowledge accumulates it turns out they are no different than other human beings.

The Maya are no doubt the best example of this process.

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References to floods in Greek Mythology .

Floods

Besides the Flood in the time of Deucalion 1, there have been other floods. The island of Atlantis, for example, was swallowed up by the sea, and vanished with the third of the floods which preceded the deluge in the age of Deucalion 1. Severe inundations are also reported to have wiped out severals cities that were founded and ruled by Cecrops 1 in Boeotia, then called Ogygia (Strab.9.2.18).

Dispute with Athena (II)

Poseidon, they say, was the first who came to Attica; and with a blow of his trident on the Acropolis, he produced a sea or, as some say, just a well of sea-water that could be seen in the Erechtheum on the Acropolis not far from the outline of the trident on the rock. These were the evidences in support of Poseidon's claim to the land. But Athena, coming after him, planted an olive tree and claimed the land; and since they fought for the possession of the country, Zeus parted them and appointed the OLYMPIANS as arbiters, who adjudged the city to Athena, because King Cecrops 1 witnessed that she had been the first to plant the olive tree. Athena called the city Athens after herself, but Poseidon, angry at the verdict flooded Attica. However, some say that it was Zeus who ajudged Athens to Athena, and that Poseidon never flooded the country because Hermes forbade him to do so. In any case, in the shrine of Erechtheus there remained preserved a long time an olive tree and a pool of salt water which had been set there by Athena and Poseidon as tokens when they contended for the city.

Poseidon, angry at the verdict may have flooded Attica.

http://www.maicar.com/GML/Poseidon.html

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Smily_Magnifying+glass+eye.jpg

Docyabut, it's best to first copy the text from some website, and then paste into Notepad, and from there copy and paste into your reply.

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Ok Abramelin will try :)well any how the poseidon flood of athens would have been the third before Deucalion.

Plato

Now the city in those days was arranged on this wise. In the first place the Acropolis was not as now. For the fact is that a single night of excessive rain washed away the earth and laid bare the rock; at the same time there were earthquakes, and then occurred the extraordinary inundation, which was the third before the great destruction of Deucalion.

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The Egyptain priest does refered the war of Atlantis to the mythical kings of Athens around the 15 hundreds bc, and a earthquake flood of destuction.

At Tell el Dab'a in Egypt, pumice found at this location has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption.

Plato-

(This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus, such as Cecrops, and Erechtheus, and Erichthonius, and Erysichthon)

Plato-

(Where the Acropolis now is there was a fountain, which was choked by the earthquake, and has left only the few small streams which still exist in the vicinity, but in those days the fountain gave an abundant supply of water for all and of suitable temperature in summer and in winter. This is how they dwelt, being the guardians of their own citizens and the leaders of the Hellenes, who were their willing followers. And they took care to preserve the same number of men and women through all time, being so many as were required for warlike purposes, then as now-that is to say, about twenty thousand)

The legend tell us, that all the men of Athens voted for the gift of Poseidon and all the women, for the gift of Athena and because there was one woman more than the men, goddess Athena was selected and from her, the city took her name.

To defend the country from the Karian pirates from the sea and the Boeotians from the land, Kekrops, in order to manage better the population, distributed Attica in the following twelve sections: Aphidna, Brauron, Dekeleia, Epakria, Eleusis, Kekropia, Kephisius, Kytherus, Phalerus, Sphettus, Tetrapolis, Thorikus. He also ordered each man to cast a single stone and by counting the stones, it was found that they were twenty thousand inhabitants.

This is no real help in support of Thera as Atlantis, since it differs from the known date of Thera's eruption by 70+ years. The eruption dating to c.1613 +/- 10 years BC.

cormac

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This is no real help in support of Thera as Atlantis, since it differs from the known date of Thera's eruption by 70+ years. The eruption dating to c.1613 +/- 10 years BC.

cormac

comic a eruption may have happen at other times.

At one time, data from Greenland ice cores seemed to support the radiocarbon dates. A large eruption identified in ice cores and dated to 1644 ± 20 BCE was suspected to be Santorini. However, volcanic ash retrieved from an ice core demonstrated that this was not from Santorini, leading to the conclusion that the eruption may have occurred on another date.[18] The late Holocene eruption of the Mount Aniakchak, a volcano in Alaska, is proposed as the most likely source of the minute shards of volcanic glass in the Greenland ice core.[32]

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Thera eruption didn cause collapse of Minoans. They persist to live for next 200 years. Only Akrotiri site was ruined.

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comic a eruption may have happen at other times.

At one time, data from Greenland ice cores seemed to support the radiocarbon dates. A large eruption identified in ice cores and dated to 1644 ± 20 BCE was suspected to be Santorini. However, volcanic ash retrieved from an ice core demonstrated that this was not from Santorini, leading to the conclusion that the eruption may have occurred on another date.[18] The late Holocene eruption of the Mount Aniakchak, a volcano in Alaska, is proposed as the most likely source of the minute shards of volcanic glass in the Greenland ice core.[32]

There are no other major eruptions in the 2nd millenium BC on Thera.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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This tends to happen; at first the culture is described in utopian terms (everyone would love to find an ancient utopia), but as more knowledge accumulates it turns out they are no different than other human beings.

Utopia comes from greek word meaning "No where".

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Crete- Knossos- the eruption of the volcano on nearby Thera, also known as Santorini, has long been held a major factor in the destruction of the city. This event is also thought to have inspired Plato’s description of the sinking of Atlantis).

In ancient times the island of Thera was known as Thera. Archeological remains found on Thera beneath the pumice deposit from the Bronze-Age Minoan eruption show that there was a wide-spread and highly developed culture on the island: the Minoans. The Minoans were a powerful culture that ruled the island of Crete and neighboring islands for about two thousand years, or until about 1500 BC.

http://www.uri.edu/e...thera/arch.html

Edited by docyabut2

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Opps forgot the note pad:) if I ever figure it out ::):)

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but thera (crete) was also buried in ash

In ancient times the island of Thera was known as Thera. Archeological remains found on Thera beneath the pumice deposit from the Bronze-Age Minoan eruption show that there was a wide-spread and highly developed culture on the island: the Minoans. The Minoans were a powerful culture that ruled the island of Crete and neighboring islands for about two thousand years, or until about 1500 BC.

http://www.uri.edu/e...thera/arch.html

Thera and Crete are two entirely different islands. And none of this supports your contention of a second eruption around 1500 BC.

cormac

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Thera and Crete are two entirely different islands. And none of this supports your contention of a second eruption around 1500 BC.

cormac

Knossos- the eruption of the volcano on nearby Thera, also known as Santorini, has long been held a major factor in the destruction of this city. This event is also thought to have inspired Plato’s description of the sinking of Atlantis).

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Knossos- the eruption of the volcano on nearby Thera, also known as Santorini, has long been held a major factor in the destruction of this city. This event is also thought to have inspired Plato’s description of the sinking of Atlantis).

Which STILL doesn't support a second eruption around 1500 BC having happened.

cormac

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Which STILL doesn't support a second eruption around 1500 BC having happened.

cormac

What about at Tell el Dab'a in Egypt the pumice found at this location has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption.?

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What about at Tell el Dab'a in Egypt the pumice found at this location has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption.?

As I already mentioned, that's 70+ years after Thera's eruption. Which means that either the date for the pumice is wrong or it didn't actually originate from Thera, but from another eruption.

cormac

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As I already mentioned, that's 70+ years after Thera's eruption. Which means that either the date for the pumice is wrong or it didn't actually originate from Thera, but from another eruption.

cormac

Where would another eruption of a volcano be near Egypt?

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Where would another eruption of a volcano be near Egypt?

While they're only possibilities there are three that would have erupted during the general timeframe of Tell el Dab'a. Mount Etna and Mount Vesuvius both erupted then, as well as Jebel Marra in Chad.

cormac

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While they're only possibilities there are three that would have erupted during the general timeframe of Tell el Dab'a. Mount Etna and Mount Vesuvius both erupted then, as well as Jebel Marra in Chad.

Another problem with trying to tie Tell el Dab'a to the Thera eruption is that there is a 120-year variance (actually using 1500 BC versus your 1540 BC) between the date of the Thera eruption and the claimed age of pumice at Tell el Dab'a. To make things more difficult there is also a 100 year variance in just the dates within the Tell el Dab'a samples themselves. To date, these variances have NOT been reconciled and are still a matter of much discussion.

http://www.academia...._millennium_BC.

Source Name: THE CHRONOLOGY OF TELL EL-DABA: A CRUCIAL MEETING POINT OF 14C DATING, ARCHAEOLOGY, AND EGYPTOLOGY IN THE 2ND MILLENNIUM BC (2012)

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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Utopia comes from greek word meaning "No where".

That is erudite. I think though that it its meaning is as I used it. (As I recall it got its present meaning from a Thomas Moore book, although I should check that before posting this).

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It's entirely possible that the society survived the eruption(s) and decayed for other reasons (early Greeks?). We don't know and should therefore avoid multiplying hypotheses.

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IMO the vulcanic eruption may have not destroyed the Minoian civ. But it could have weakned it, laying the path for the future decline, at hand of other natural events or surrounding civilitations. But what do I know....

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