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docyabut2

'Peaceful' Minoans Surprisingly Warlike

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I never thought that the Thera eruption was anything to get excited about historically. Certainly bad for those directly effected on the island, yet lack of human remains strongly suggest an orderly evacuation. I write knowing that it is always possible a Herculaneum type shoreline nightmare may still be discovered, if they were not all vapourised.......

Anyway, I think after the eruption life went on in the area without too much disruption, just like after Vesuvius in AD79. Minoan civilisation probably collapsed because of external invasion by Greeks

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The Egyptain priest does refered the war of Atlantis to the mythical kings of Athens around the 15 hundreds bc, and a earthquake flood of destuction.

At Tell el Dab'a in Egypt, pumice found at this location has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption.

Plato-

(This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus, such as Cecrops, and Erechtheus, and Erichthonius, and Erysichthon)

Plato-

(Where the Acropolis now is there was a fountain, which was choked by the earthquake, and has left only the few small streams which still exist in the vicinity, but in those days the fountain gave an abundant supply of water for all and of suitable temperature in summer and in winter. This is how they dwelt, being the guardians of their own citizens and the leaders of the Hellenes, who were their willing followers. And they took care to preserve the same number of men and women through all time, being so many as were required for warlike purposes, then as now-that is to say, about twenty thousand)

The legend tell us, that all the men of Athens voted for the gift of Poseidon and all the women, for the gift of Athena and because there was one woman more than the men, goddess Athena was selected and from her, the city took her name.

To defend the country from the Karian pirates from the sea and the Boeotians from the land, Kekrops, in order to manage better the population, distributed Attica in the following twelve sections: Aphidna, Brauron, Dekeleia, Epakria, Eleusis, Kekropia, Kephisius, Kytherus, Phalerus, Sphettus, Tetrapolis, Thorikus. He also ordered each man to cast a single stone and by counting the stones, it was found that they were twenty thousand inhabitants.

that explained why the egyptian and atlantis are included in my memories.

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Is it true that first plague of Egypt, so called blood in Nile, redness of nile, can be caused by Thera eruption ? One member mentioned that wind force smoke north and north east but I read once that ash of Thera was found in Nile valley. If so could it cause red Nile?

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Is it true that first plague of Egypt, so called blood in Nile, redness of nile, can be caused by Thera eruption ? One member mentioned that wind force smoke north and north east but I read once that ash of Thera was found in Nile valley. If so could it cause red Nile?

The major distribution of the ash from Thera was northeast/east. Any ash that would have made it to the Egyptian delta was of a depth of 0.1 centimeters/0.039370 inches. This is nowhere near deep enough to cause a red Nile.

post-74391-0-07911500-1359308996_thumb.j

cormac

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Thanks cormac!

Minoan civilisation probably collapsed because of external invasion by Greeks

Bronze age civilization on Crete was possibly destroyed when Hittites vanished. Maybe after battle of Kadesh Hittites were weaken so when strong Assyrians came and defeated them at battle in north Mesopotamia when Hittites were under Tudhaliya IV, son of Hatussili. 1237 to 1209 was decline of Hittites. After him only four rulers ruled Hittites. Minoans traded with Egypt and with Hittites. And they were 3rd world country comparing to Mesopotamia, Egypt, Hittites. They probably depends on trading with Hittites. Or they were Hittites ally so when Assyrians came and conquer everything no one wanted to have nothing with people who were allied against new ruler.

Imo, collapse of Hittites cause Minoan fall.. .

But there is NONE historian in world who can say for certain why bronze age civilization in Europe collapsed.

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That is erudite. I think though that it its meaning is as I used it. (As I recall it got its present meaning from a Thomas Moore book, although I should check that before posting this).

1550s, from Modern Latin Utopia, lit. "nowhere," coined by Thomas More (and used as title of his book, 1516, about an imaginary island enjoying perfect legal, social, and political systems), from Greek ou "not" + topos "place" (see topos). Extended to "any perfect place," 1610s.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=utopia&searchmode=none

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IMO the vulcanic eruption may have not destroyed the Minoian civ. But it could have weakned it, laying the path for the future decline, at hand of other natural events or surrounding civilitations. But what do I know....

Collapse of civilization allways have complex reasons. There is never one. Thats why is interesting to study collapse of civilizations.

But in my research I found that, that there is a pattern which follow all civilization plus one or few more reasons which push collapse.

Social turmoil and greed is same pattern that follow all collapses.

But as I said before (Im saying this because it would be offtopic to developed thread into fall of civilizations question) there is always complex reasons.

What I found interisting that many historians like Atlantis scenario.

That drought, flood, climate changes cause collapses.

I dont think that is a case. But to not expand thread into wrong course I will stay at my statement that always there are complex scenario of collapse.

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Actually there is a theory that says that due to the climate changes, caused by the eruption, the Minoans began to see their world in a different way. Some researchers believe the Minoan people, stripped of all certainties by the cataclysm of Thera, stopped obeying their priest kings and as such were in no position to fight back when Greeks took control of the island. Their decline in a nutshell, if you will.

And if I weren't in the middle of a move and had all my library packed in boxes I could even reference that. I think it's Colin MacDonald, but I could be wrong.

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Actually there is a theory that says that due to the climate changes, caused by the eruption, the Minoans began to see their world in a different way. Some researchers believe the Minoan people, stripped of all certainties by the cataclysm of Thera, stopped obeying their priest kings and as such were in no position to fight back when Greeks took control of the island. Their decline in a nutshell, if you will.

And if I weren't in the middle of a move and had all my library packed in boxes I could even reference that. I think it's Colin MacDonald, but I could be wrong.

Thats just one of the theories on which MANY historians dont agree.

What are evidences that Minoans didnt obey their priest anymore?

Please Searcher. we dont even know what was population on Crete.

When Evans start to dig he must first buy land then he dig with damaging speed. Because Crete was under Ottomans around 1900.

Gods know from where topless priestes with snakes came from, or bull skipping sport. From Crete to Africa is nothing. So did they came from Africa? Who knows what Linear A is hiding from us? What will cryptogram script with 80 signs told us?

One more thing. Disasters closed people together. Thats human psychology.

Did tsunami in Japan caused social turmoil? Did Japanese organize riots? Or even sabotage goverment?

Minoans didnt read Origins but they were not stupid.

Edited by the L

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Another problem with trying to tie Tell el Dab'a to the Thera eruption is that there is a 120-year variance (actually using 1500 BC versus your 1540 BC) between the date of the Thera eruption and the claimed age of pumice at Tell el Dab'a. To make things more difficult there is also a 100 year variance in just the dates within the Tell el Dab'a samples themselves. To date, these variances have NOT been reconciled and are still a matter of much discussion.

http://www.academia...._millennium_BC.

Source Name: THE CHRONOLOGY OF TELL EL-DABA: A CRUCIAL MEETING POINT OF 14C DATING, ARCHAEOLOGY, AND EGYPTOLOGY IN THE 2ND MILLENNIUM BC (2012)

cormac

In other words thay are not really sure of the dates:):)

If this Atlantis tale was ever to be true,it would have to based on a real capital city that ruled over other islands in history, that were also destroyed, and like the dialogue says this whole honourable race was to be chastened and improve, so this culture and its people after still had to be around.

Plato

All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea;

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In other words thay are not really sure of the dates:) :)

If this Atlantis tale was ever to be true,it would have to based on a real capital city that ruled over other islands in history, that were also destroyed, and like the dialogue says this whole honourable race was to be chastened and improve, so this culture and its people after still had to be around.

Plato

All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea;

Thera was an important hub for trade, but there is no evidence that it ruled over anyone. And it was definitely not the seat of Minoan power.

cormac

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Someone tell me if I got this right, but Plato's dates are third century BCE and Thera happened 1540 BCE, so Plato is talking about things that happened well over a thousand years before his time. I know the man knew a lot, but the entire Greek Dark Age was between the two. How would he have known any better than we know?

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Someone tell me if I got this right, but Plato's dates are third century BCE and Thera happened 1540 BCE, so Plato is talking about things that happened well over a thousand years before his time. I know the man knew a lot, but the entire Greek Dark Age was between the two. How would he have known any better than we know?

The Thera eruption didn't happen in 1540 BC, but c.1613 +/- 10 BC. Not that that makes it any easier to claim Thera was the basis for Atlantis since Crete was where the seat of power was for the Minoans. Even if Plato had heard tales of Thera's destruction (a big 'if' IMO), it was never as dominant as Atlantis was said to have been. And the destruction of Helike was more contemporary to Plato's time.

cormac

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Thera was an important hub for trade, but there is no evidence that it ruled over anyone. And it was definitely not the seat of Minoan power.

cormac

I was refering to Knossos ,The palace of Knossos was undoubtedly the ceremonial and political centre of the Minoan civilization and culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knossos

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Crete ruled over Thera, the best-known Minoan site outside of Crete,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santorini

Which still doesn't help your argument any since Knossos never sunk as Atlantis is claimed to have done.

cormac

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Which still doesn't help your argument any since Knossos never sunk as Atlantis is claimed to have done.

cormac

The island is the site of one of the largest volcanic eruptions in recorded history: the Minoan eruption (sometimes called the Thera eruption), which occurred some 3500:) years ago at the height of the Minoan civilization. The eruption left a large caldera surrounded by volcanic ash deposits hundreds of metres deep and may have led indirectly to the collapse of the Minoan civilization on the island of Crete, 110 km (68 mi) to the south, through a gigantic tsunami.

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The island is the site of one of the largest volcanic eruptions in recorded history: the Minoan eruption (sometimes called the Thera eruption), which occurred some 3500:) years ago at the height of the Minoan civilization. The eruption left a large caldera surrounded by volcanic ash deposits hundreds of metres deep and may have led indirectly to the collapse of the Minoan civilization on the island of Crete, 110 km (68 mi) to the south, through a gigantic tsunami.

Plato didn't mention any volcanic eruption, not even this largest one in recorded human history;

Thera didn't sink. it exploded. The caldera is still there;

Crete/Thera is not outside the Pillars of Hercules;

Crete/Thera is not anything the size of Libya (= Africa) and Asia combined, even when you take into account that they underestimated the sizes of these areas;

Plato was very specific about his date of Atlantis' destruction: he didn't just say "it happened very long ago", he said 9600 years before Solon. And that's far from the mid second millenniium BCE.

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Plato didn't mention any volcanic eruption, not even this largest one in recorded human history;

Thera didn't sink. it exploded. The caldera is still there;

Crete/Thera is not outside the Pillars of Hercules;

Crete/Thera is not anything the size of Libya (= Africa) and Asia combined, even when you take into account that they underestimated the sizes of these areas;

Plato was very specific about his date of Atlantis' destruction: he didn't just say "it happened very long ago", he said 9600 years before Solon. And that's far from the mid second millenniium BCE.

And the point docyabut2 apparently doesn't get is that Crete was where the power was at, Thera was a trading hub. As opposed to Atlantis which was supposed to be the be-all/end-all of the western Mediterranean. If one has to rewrite/reinterpret the story then it's no longer Plato's, it's theirs.

cormac

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And the point docyabut2 apparently doesn't get is that Crete was where the power was at, Thera was a trading hub. As opposed to Atlantis which was supposed to be the be-all/end-all of the western Mediterranean. If one has to rewrite/reinterpret the story then it's no longer Plato's, it's theirs.

cormac

I found a site from someone who believes Atlantis to have been a reality, but then exactly as Plato described it.

It's a question-and-answer website, and quite enlightening, despite the fact I had some questions with his geological 'proof':

In addition to Plato's Timaeus (24e) locating Atlantis directly "in front of" (pro), or "facing," the Pillars of Heracles, Plato's Critias (114b) describes Atlas as having a twin named Gadirus, who was allotted the portion of the island "closest to" (epi to) the Pillars. He says the ancient city of Gades (on the Atlantic shore of southern Spain, now called Cadiz) was named after that individual. The name, in itself, implies proximity. Plato's description categorically eliminates any location other than the North Atlantic Ocean reasonably close to Spain. Yet, in spite of such precise details, many moderns seek to justify other far-flung locations.

http://www.atlantisquest.com/Plato.html

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I found a site from someone who believes Atlantis to have been a reality, but then exactly as Plato described it.

It's a question-and-answer website, and quite enlightening, despite the fact I had some questions with his geological 'proof':

In addition to Plato's Timaeus (24e) locating Atlantis directly "in front of" (pro), or "facing," the Pillars of Heracles, Plato's Critias (114b) describes Atlas as having a twin named Gadirus, who was allotted the portion of the island "closest to" (epi to) the Pillars. He says the ancient city of Gades (on the Atlantic shore of southern Spain, now called Cadiz) was named after that individual. The name, in itself, implies proximity. Plato's description categorically eliminates any location other than the North Atlantic Ocean reasonably close to Spain. Yet, in spite of such precise details, many moderns seek to justify other far-flung locations.

http://www.atlantisq....com/Plato.html

His "proof" would tend to run contrary to the findings from the Deep Sea Drilling Project (DSDP) and Integrated Ocean Drilling Program, both of which show no evidence for a sizeable landmass having catastrophically submerged at any point within human history at or near the Azores Plateau. The site is just another attempt for someone to try to rationalize Atlantis into existance IMO.

The website writer also has a rather broad interpretation of what constitutes "reasonably close to Spain" as well, considering that the Azores Plateau is about 1000 miles west of the Pillars of Hercules/Straits of Gibraltar. On top of which the earliest evidence for boats of any kind don't appear until around 6000 BC which is 3600 years after Atlantis supposedly existed. He seems to be taking great liberties with the facts.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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Keftiu,( Crete) an island nation named for holding one of the four pillars that supported the Egyptian sky.According to the Egypt legend, Keftiu was an advanced civilization, and was the gateway to and ruler of all of the lands to the far west of Egypt, Keftiu traded in ivory, copper, and cloth. Keftiu supported hosts of ships and controlled commerce far beyond the Egyptians domain.The Egyptians believed that the sky was supported by four pillars that were at the end of the world.

Perhaps the Egyptian priest was refering to the pillars that held the egyptian sky in the inlands of sea, however Solon in his translation of the tale in greek form used the term the pillars of Herucles.

Edited by docyabut2

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the reason I changed from Tartesso to Crete, Thera it is only known disaster to where the kings of Athens of the Atlantis war fits in. The story was more of a unknown war and a great deed with a great empire before a disaster occurred. The minoans were a peaceful people, but there could have been a war with them before this great disaster happen. Then there is that island in the Aegean where they found all those houres of buried weapons.

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On top of which the earliest evidence for boats of any kind don't appear until around 6000 BC which is 3600 years after Atlantis supposedly existed. He seems to be taking great liberties with the facts.

cormac

A quibble: the presence of humans in Australia >40 KY ago argues that boats of some kind existed that long ago.

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Atlantis didnt exist 10,000 years ago only it its foundation.

Plato-

no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet.

All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea

Now Atlas had a numerous and honourable family, and they retained the kingdom, the eldest son handing it on to his eldest for many generations;

I will now describe the plain, as it was fashioned by nature and by the labours of many generations of kings through long ages.

Edited by docyabut2

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