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ouija ouija

Can number of rapes be decreased?

93 posts in this topic

I think you kinda get perilously close to blaming the victim yourself here:

I realize you discuss this from the point of view of the scantily clad woman inciting the rapist to go rape someone else, but I don't see how your logic changes if the rapist, in your scenario, ends up raping the scantily clad woman herself; in both scenarios you seem to be, if not blaming, at least criticizing the scantily-clad woman for doing something wrong, you seem to disagree that women actually do have a right to wear what they want by using the somewhat mocking word, 'brigade'. It's not just blaming the victim that's the problem, it's not placing the blame squarely and solely on the criminal themselves. This is in addition to the other posters who have noted correctly that it's usually not dressing sexy that is inciting the rape; I'm not sure what the percentage is but I'm pretty sure that the majority of rapes are committed by someone the victims actually know or who are acquaintances.

It's a mistake also to assume that women showing a lot of flesh are signalling availability, that simply does not necessarily follow. There are lots of reasons a woman may show skin that you are not accounting for nor ruling out, and 'a lot of flesh' is usually very subjective.

Regarding your first sentence: you may view it as 'perilously close'(to blaming the victim), but I do not in fact, blame the victim.

Women do indeed have the right to wear what they want, when they want ........ but sometimes common sense should overrule that right.

I most definitely do not blame the victim(apart from, in some cases, for making a poor judgement), and I most definitely DO(how many times do I have to state this?!), lay the full blame on the perpetrator.

Something else that I fear I am going to have to repeat over and over is this: when I talk about clothing playing a part I am talking about some not all cases.

Just because someone knows, or is acquainted with the person who rapes them doesn't mean that clothing doesn't play a part ....... does it? That seems to be what you are suggesting.

As for 'signalling availability' by being scantily-clad: in my post #8 I wrote: 'The line between 'attractive' and 'sexually available at that moment' has become very fuzzy in people's minds'.

Edited by ouija ouija

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It would help if there was a concrete definition of rape. Frat parties and parties in general where the term "date" rape got coined muttled the term alot.

For me forcible rape and child rape are the lines we must stand firm on and not allow second chances on. It should carry penalties stiffer then murder IMO.

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For once I agree with the media for highlighting this problem.

I agree just trying to understand if this is a growing problem or an always been there problem.

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I agree just trying to understand if this is a growing problem or an always been there problem.

Very hard to say because so much isn't recorded. For instance incest .... very difficult to assess that crime over decades. Also, I think I'm right in saying that more women are coming forward to report rape, but how does that compare with the years when rape was often a 'hidden' crime?

It certainly feels like a growing problem. But equally, it's probably always been there.

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Women do indeed have the right to wear what they want, when they want ........ but sometimes common sense should to overrule that right.

I most definitely do not blame the victim(apart from, in some cases, for making a poor judgement), and I most definitely DO(how many times do I have to state this?!), lay the full blame on the perpetrator.

Again, the statement from you that threw me off was: "Everywhere they look there are women exposing vast amounts of flesh, signalling availability .... but not for them! And this is where the I-have-a-right-to-wear-what-I-want-when-I-want brigade need to sit up and take notice: it may well not be them who is attacked and raped, but they may well be the one who has sexually inflamed the man who then rapes someone more vulnerable who he feels he can easily overpower! This could be a child, a frail old person, a nun, or a scantily clad, attractive, young, drunk woman walking down a dark alley on her own at 2a.m.." That's great that you've clarified your position in the quote above, but the above can be construed as, 'be careful you women who dress scantily, your actions may not just lead to you being raped, but others who may be more vulnerable as well'. You may well not intend it this way, but that is one interpretation, I thought based on the above that you were criticizing women who wear what they want. This scenario seems to be under the conception that many/most rapists 1) are aroused by someone sexually and then 2) go and rape someone; that is too simplistic and doesn't seem to jibe that well with what we do know about what motivates rapists. And people have to be careful when discussing this, even though you don't mean it this way, because there are too many people who partially 'excuse' rape specifically because the woman was dressed provocatively, was 'slutty', etc.

Let me try an analogy. I live in the metro Detroit area, downtown Detroit has a very high homicide rate but luckily (for me) not much of that splashes into the suburbs, and the police are notoriously unresponsive to crimes that don't occur in the business/tourist areas of the city. It would be extremely unwise for me to go down at night into the city and park in one of the neighborhoods and just wander around, it would not be that surprising if I ended up the victim of a crime. If I did end up a victim, the only persons on whom blame should be laid would be the criminals. Yes, you could say I was stupid for going down into the city at night, everyone with a brain knows how dangerous it is, so in some sense it is tempting to say that I do share some blame; the reason I do not think that logic carries over when discussing crimes against women is that to women, almost everywhere is 'downtown Detroit neighborhood at night'. Of course there are places where it is more dangerous and places where it is safer, but the prevalence of sexual assault against women is appallingly high and too common everywhere. It's one thing to tell me not to be dumb and don't go to random city neighborhoods at night, I obviously have other options. It's entirely another to suggest to a woman not to dress wrong, or more relevant to the actual attributes of rapists, don't have male acquaintances or friends as chances are if you are going to be assaulted it's going to be by someone you know.

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children do not dress wrong and this is an even more prevalent problem then adult rape IMO. I dont want to categorize one as worse then the other because thats just wrong but I do think attacking an innocent child to be massively obscene.

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For rapes to actually decrease we need to look at every situation that is rape first not just the ones that are just Men towards everything and eliminate the double standard that society has today. Some people can't even admit it happens. Oh and good luck getting out of paying child support in that event.

Something to make you think http://www.genderratic.com/p/836/manufacturing-female-victimhood-and-marginalizing-vulnerable-men/

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For rapes to actually decrease we need to look at every situation that is rape first not just the ones that are just Men towards everything and eliminate the double standard that society has today. Some people can't even admit it happens. Oh and good luck getting out of paying child support in that event.

Something to make you think http://www.genderrat...vulnerable-men/

Well, I read the link but I'm afraid it didn't really make much sense to me. I was just left with the feeling that 'you can make statistics say anything' ........ sorry.

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children do not dress wrong and this is an even more prevalent problem then adult rape IMO. I dont want to categorize one as worse then the other because thats just wrong but I do think attacking an innocent child to be massively obscene.

I really don't want to get stuck on just the aspect of clothing, but in fact children can 'dress wrong' because adults encourage them to do so. Even very tiny children sometimes get dressed up to look like their 18 year old sisters!

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Another thing that I find incredibly offensive is the implication that men are not able to control themselves because they are incited to rape because of scantily clad women. You do a disservice to men. They are not animals, most men can control themselves.

I wonder why you are 'incredibly offended' by something that was not said or even implied? I didn't think we were discussing 'most men', I thought we were discussing rapists?

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Of course it was implied by your faulty premise that revealing clothing is causing men to rape (at least sexually frustrated and awkward ones).

My first response to your question What can we do, as individuals & as society, to minimise the number of rapes that occur? was "Punish the rapists and cease blaming victims." I'm going to go further. Teach our sons honor and compassion. Teach that rape is never acceptable. Teach our daughters to respect them selves. Teach them that their self worth is not tied up in their image. Teach both about personal accountability

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Red light districts and lower prices perhaps...

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Of course it was implied by your faulty premise that revealing clothing is causing men to rape (at least sexually frustrated and awkward ones).

My first response to your question What can we do, as individuals & as society, to minimise the number of rapes that occur? was "Punish the rapists and cease blaming victims." I'm going to go further. Teach our sons honor and compassion. Teach that rape is never acceptable. Teach our daughters to respect them selves. Teach them that their self worth is not tied up in their image. Teach both about personal accountability

Please can you take it as read, that when I mention any group(including sexually frustrated and awkward men), I am not attributing behaviour to the entire group ....... I am usually speaking in a very general way, because to do otherwise would take up pages and pages :lol:

The second part of your post I agree wholeheartedly with ........ particularly: 'Teach both about personal accountability'.

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Red light districts and lower prices perhaps...

Is this a PC suggestion? Possibly not, but I think it is something that could help ...... in a limited kind of way.

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Take a look at this survey of over a hundred convicted rapists:

https://www.d.umn.ed...andmarollis.htm

Live more sensibly in the way you leave opportunity open to be exploited and raped and you might reduce rape, but don't give rapists the get out of free jail card they want by tip toeing through life trying to change how you dress or act in the hope they will leave you alone - because they have shown in every study there is that they don't think like that anyway....

Firstly, thank you for that link ...... I would recommend it to anyone interested in this thread. It's long-ish but not a difficult read. I'll comment on it in a longer post in a minute.

Secondly, regarding your last paragraph: you suggest not 'tip-toeing through life, trying to change how you dress or act', and yet, time and time again in this thread and the previous one, poster after poster agrees that to make the possibility of rape less likely, it is sensible to not get drunk, to not walk alone at night/in certain areas, to not go off alone with strangers. These seem to be things that we all agree on, and yet to follow this advice we can't help but limit our lives!

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This topic is a second try at a similar one that was closed a little while ago because posters were becoming disrespectful of each other. PLEEEASE people, keep it nice this time around. Rape is a terrible crime with immediate and long term effects. It needs to be discussed, and males and females need to work together for a better understanding of how the opposite gender to their own, views the situation. Then we need to act in accordance with that understanding.

Please bear with me as I make 3 or 4 posts that relate to aspects brought up in the previous thread.

The most important point IMO that came out of the previous thread was : 'Ideals vs Reality'. Of course we need ideals and our minds need to be constantly turned back to them, BUT, at one and the same time we must be realistic in telling women and children what the pitfalls are and teach them how to stay safe. Encourage youngsters to have ideals and to speak out about them, but remind them that they have to live in the real world in the mean time.

Ideals and reality have to co-exist. As 'eightbits' said in another thread recently: 'The ideal cannot be the enemy of the necessary'. Or, as 'Yamato' said: 'Admitting something exists does not mean advocating it'. I really don't think that this can be emphasised enough. Whilst holding tight to our ideals and promoting them whenever we can, we must not lose sight of the fact that we may be in danger from those who do not hold the same ideals as us. We may believe very strongly in our ideals, but we must never forget that others often view the world and life very differently.

When I meet a woman I can tell if shes not right in the head -

1. Abusive

2. Mood problems

3. Impulsive behaviour

4. Breaks laws such as drugs and violance

5. Sexual deviant

Likewise if a woman hasnt got the sense to select well balanced men quite frankly its her own fault. I'll also add she shouldnt be putting herself into riskly situations until she knows if he's normal too.

Edited by Mr Right Wing

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Red light districts and lower prices perhaps...

Joke right? did you read what has been written about this in the earlier posts?

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When I meet a woman I can tell if shes not right in the head -

1. Abusive

2. Mood problems

3. Impulsive behaviour

4. Breaks laws such as drugs and violance

5. Sexual deviant

Likewise if a woman hasnt got the sense to select well balanced men quite frankly its her own fault. I'll also add she shouldnt be putting herself into riskly situations until she knows if he's normal too.

Thats not always possible to tell. There have been cases where the man seems to be the perfect gentleman at first, that is part of some of the serial rapists act, to trap the woman. But this is only one kind of rapist, just because they are all classed as rapists, does not mean they all work the same way.

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Joke right?

yup.

Im voting for early education, self defense techniqes (SAMBO, Krav Maga, Judo ,Muay Thay) and harsh and cruel penalties.

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yup.

Phewww.

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It's time for us as a people to start makin' some changes.

Let's change the way we eat, let's change the way we live

and let's change the way we treat each other.

You see the old way wasn't working so it's on us to do

what we gotta do, to survive.

2Pac

[media=]

[/media] Edited by the L

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Gun control is NOT a way to decrease rapes but double tap on the M****s is.

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Here are the bits that most interested me in the link that Sky Scanner posted(in his post #19).

The study was done in 1980/1981 and involved 114 male convicted rapists. All the men had raped adult women(a few had raped teenage girls), none had raped men or children.

82% had a criminal history already. Only 23% had previous sexual offences.

42% were married or co-habiting at the time of the rape.

26% had a history of emotional problems.

'Obviously the sample was not random and this may not be representative of all rapists.'

Some rapists who admitted to rape, like most of the ones who denied what they had done was 'rape', claimed that women enjoy being raped.

As long as the victim survived without major physical injury, from the rapist's perspective, a rape had not taken place. INDEED, EVEN U.S. COURTS HAVE OFTEN TAKEN THE POSITION THAT PHYSICAL INJURY IS A NECESSARY INGREDIENT FOR A RAPE CONVICTION.

Nelson & Amir(1975), defined hitch-hike rape as a victim-precipitated offence.

There is a 'CULTURAL VIEW' of men being sexually masterful and women being coy and seductive.

Justifications and excuses(by the rapist), are buttressed by the CULTURAL VIEW of women as sexual commodities, dehumanised and devoid of autonomy and dignity.

In this sense, the sexual objectification of women must be understood as an important factor contributing to an environment that trivialises, neutralises, and, perhaps, facilitates rape.

Our research, however, based on volunteers from the entire prison population, indicates that some rapists, like deny-ers, viewed and understood their behaviour from a popular cultural perspective. This strongly suggests that CULTURAL PERSPECTIVES, and not an idiosyncratic illness, motivated their behaviour.

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^ All of the above are qualified with 'perhaps' ' maybe' and 'sometimes', and for a good reason, because there isn't one answer to this topic, that's one of the problems with just highlighting certain lines.

Anyway, we have different opinions on this, having 3 sisters I don't want them moulding the way they choose to dress or present themselves or their opinions in line with trying to avoid the unwanted attention of some rapist. What I want them to do (and thankfully they are like this anyway) is be streetwise about people, always be on top in terms of knowing their surroundings and the people they choose to be with and trust, and learn some self defense too. When my nieces are old enough i'll tell them the same thing.

So.we're not going to agree on this.

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