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Tor_Hershman

Are Jews Egyptians ?

89 posts in this topic

I am most interested to read the responses of the people here due to the thoughtfulness and knowledge I have viewed in other threads.

Oh, yes.....I know of Freud's work on this subject but this takes it one step beyond that excellent deduction.

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Errr........No. Ofcourse not.

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Hi Tor,

Can't watch your video right now, because FireFox won't let me.

I now think the Hebrews and Phoenicians were one and the same people, the Canaanites, and that they came from Western Arabia, at the coast of the Red Sea. The Hebrews were the landlubbers, the Phoenicians were sailors.

Check this entry into my blog:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?app=blog&module=display&section=blog&blogid=2684&showentry=26483

Also try to find what Kamil Salibi, a Lebanese professor had to say about the origin of the Hebrews.

I will watch your video later.

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I think they supposedly lived there once. Might of been some interbreeding. Who knows.

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Funny you should ask that. I've long thought and wondered about the same thing myself? Like if they were worshippers of Ahkenaten and it somehow evolved into Judaism? I see some similarities and the time constraints certainly fit. ?

Egypt Cult of the Sun God and Akhenaten's Monotheism - Ancient ...

ancienthistory.about.com/cs/egypt/a/locegyptmonothe.htm

Egypt During the New Kingdom, the cult of the sun god Ra became increasingly important until it evolved into the uncompromising monotheism of Pharaoh

Art

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The Jews believed in what was originally a mountain god Yahweh as their one, true god while Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten took an aspect of Re (the Aten) who already existed in the Egyptian pantheon and brought it to the fore as his one, true god. Yet, even during his reign he was never able to completely abolish the use of idols of the other Egyptian deities and soon after his death Aten worship was abolished. Linguistically the Jewish and Ancient Egyptian languages bear little relationship to one another, aside from being members of the Afro-Asiatic language family. Genetically the origins of the Egyptians show strong evidence of originating from mtDNA haplogroups within northern Africa, namely subgroups of M1, L and E1b. This would later have included to a very small degree an influx of R1b. The Jews, however, by tradition and supported by genetics show an existance and origin within the J1 and J2 haplogroups of the Middle East. Lastly, per the Merneptah Stele, the Egyptians didn't see any kind of relationship between themselves and the Israelites they claim to have routed. In short, no, they weren't the same.

cormac

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By the way, many near death experiencers describe an overwhelming feeling of oneness and connectedness while on the other side which makes me wonder if monotheism evolved out of people having near death experiences and/or mystical experiences where they felt this sense of universal "oneness"?

excerpt from Michelle M's NDE description:

"I remember understanding the others here.. as if the others here were a part of me too. As if all of it was just a vast expression of me. But it wasn't just me, it was .. gosh this is so hard to explain.. it was as if we were all the same. As if consciousness were like a huge being. The easiest way to explain it would be like all things are all different parts of the same body."

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experiences/michelle_m%27s_nde.htm

excerpt from Mellen Benedict's NDE description:

"As the light revealed itself to me, I became aware that what I was really seeing was our Higher Self matrix. The only thing I can tell you is that it turned into a matrix, a mandala of human souls, and what I saw was that what we call our Higher Self in each of us is a matrix. It's also a conduit to the Source; each one of us comes directly, as a direct experience from the Source. We all have a Higher Self, or an oversoul part of our being. It revealed itself to me in its truest energy form. The only way I can really describe it is that the being of the Higher Self is more like a conduit. It did not look like that, but it is a direct connection to the Source that each and every one of us has. We are directly connected to the Source.

So the light was showing me the Higher Self matrix. And it became very clear to me that all the Higher Selves are connected as one being, all humans are connected as one being, we are actually the same being, different aspects of the same being. It was not committed to one particular religion. So that is what was being fed back to me. And I saw this mandala of human souls. It was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen. I just went into it and, it was just overwhelming. It was like all the love you've every wanted, and it was the kind of love that cures, heals, regenerates."

http://near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation04.html

Art

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Maybe the Jewish God was borrowed from or affected by the Egyptian monotheism?

Art

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no they're not egyptians

am no expert but before the named " Herbews " which in arabic the word is " العبريين"

which means in arabic the " crossers " the naming refer to them as the people who crossed the river or sea from egypt to palestine

however history does not trace them to egypt but they were in palestine before they were in egypt

they live along side with canannites but they are not canannaites

before they left to egypt they were called israel , and after they came back to palestine they were called herbews " as explained above "

they are related to arabs because both share the same great grandfather abraham which he was an arab

the only difference is ,, israel , jews , herbews they trace back to jacob grandchild of abraham

arabs trace back even before abraham .. way before abraham

so it's fair to say they are branch of arabs ,, even though they might disagree

please notice that the names i used : jacob and abraham are arabic .. sometimes in english they are called different names

so i don't know if that's their names in english

Edited by Knight Of Shadows
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Maybe the Jewish God was borrowed from or affected by the Egyptian monotheism?

Art

Yahweh didn't originate in Egypt, but appears to have originated in southern Judah.

cormac

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Looking at the different Jews my bet is that yes, some of them were Egyptians, others were Arabian or African and others Indo-German. There are too many racial archetypes within the "Jews"to put the into a single geographic confine. So my stand: You are all right.

Yahweh didn't originate in Egypt, but appears to have originated in southern Judah.

cormac

correct, and was the thunder god of a proton-beduin tribe.

Edited by questionmark
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no they're not egyptians

am no expert but before the named " Herbews " which in arabic the word is " العبريين"

which means in arabic the " crossers " the naming refer to them as the people who crossed the river or sea from egypt to palestine

however history does not trace them to egypt but they were in palestine before they were in egypt

they live along side with canannites but they are not canannaites

before they left to egypt they were called israel , and after they came back to palestine they were called herbews " as explained above "

they are related to arabs because both share the same great grandfather abraham which he was an arab

the only difference is ,, israel , jews , herbews they trace back to jacob grandchild of abraham

arabs trace back even before abraham .. way before abraham

so it's fair to say they are branch of arabs ,, even though they might disagree

please notice that the names i used : jacob and abraham are arabic .. sometimes in english they are called different names

so i don't know if that's their names in english

You should read Kamal Salibi' s books:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Kamal_Salibi

Kamal Salibi wrote three books advocating the controversial "Israel in Arabia" theory. In this view, the place names of the Hebrew Bible actually allude to places in southwest Arabia; many of them were later reinterpreted to refer to places in Palestine, when the Arabian Hebrews migrated to what is now called Eretz Israel, and where they established the Hasmonean kingdom under Simon Maccabaeus in the second century B.C. In this new Israel, they switched from Hebrew to Aramaic. It was this switch in language that created the confusions which lead to the distortion of the immigrants' stories. He also argued that 'Lebanon' itself in high antiquity was a place in the Southern Arabian peninsula.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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The Jews believed in what was originally a mountain god Yahweh as their one, true god while Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten took an aspect of Re (the Aten) who already existed in the Egyptian pantheon and brought it to the fore as his one, true god. Yet, even during his reign he was never able to completely abolish the use of idols of the other Egyptian deities and soon after his death Aten worship was abolished. Linguistically the Jewish and Ancient Egyptian languages bear little relationship to one another, aside from being members of the Afro-Asiatic language family. Genetically the origins of the Egyptians show strong evidence of originating from mtDNA haplogroups within northern Africa, namely subgroups of M1, L and E1b. This would later have included to a very small degree an influx of R1b. The Jews, however, by tradition and supported by genetics show an existance and origin within the J1 and J2 haplogroups of the Middle East. Lastly, per the Merneptah Stele, the Egyptians didn't see any kind of relationship between themselves and the Israelites they claim to have routed. In short, no, they weren't the same.

cormac

What a penetrating post.

correct, and was the thunder god of a proton-beduin tribe.

I heard rain god?

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Funny you should ask that. I've long thought and wondered about the same thing myself? Like if they were worshippers of Ahkenaten and it somehow evolved into Judaism? I see some similarities and the time constraints certainly fit. ?

Egypt Cult of the Sun God and Akhenaten's Monotheism - Ancient ...

ancienthistory.about.com/cs/egypt/a/locegyptmonothe.htm

Egypt During the New Kingdom, the cult of the sun god Ra became increasingly important until it evolved into the uncompromising monotheism of Pharaoh

Art

Artaxerxes, your wondering is in complete agreement with my research/findings.

YIKES! Your Library Of Congress link skeert moi, @ first. I was happy to see that the information there was well documented before and after the LOC listing.

I also have a bit of a personal problem with the LOC.

There's a group who've made a listing of everyone who has ever recorded "Amazing Grace."

Well, one day a fan Eed me with the info that I [???] was on that list [??????].

I have a recording entitled "Tor Hershman's AmaZING Grace" so I went to check-out the LOC sites and sure enough...there moi 'twere.

My version is a parody that I consider well suited to a song written by a person who grew wealthy from the Slave Trade.

I Eed the LOC and told them that me wee song ain't "Amazing Grace."

My listing vanished BUT no thank you, to myself, for correcting the HUGE error came from the LOC.

I really wouldn't of minded having a LOC listing but NEVER for such a vile pile of disgusting caterwauling as is "Amazing Grace."

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What a penetrating post.

I heard rain god?

This thunder/rain god bears a lot of resemblance to the Ancient Philistine deity "BAAL" (whom if you remember your bible study class was pretty much the Devil/Satan of the old testament.)

The only relationship between the Jews and and Egyptians besides the exodus story is the ancient "Shepard Kings"/"Foreign Rulers" of the "Hyksos" post middle kingdom.

We know they were from the Mesopotamian region (all it means is that they were Semites not necessarily Hebrews)

and we also know that the time span correlates with the so-called exodus and the repelling of foreign rule in Eqypt.

I also read somewhere that the cult of Amon was the key factor in relinquishing these nomad ruling class.

I am interested to know as well if anyone has more information....

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Jews definitely didn't come from Egyptians.

Others have already touched upon the fundamental differences between Aten and Yahweh, but also consider practice.

Aten worship seems to have evolved quite quickly under Akhenaten, first with Aten being set apart from other gods and then becoming the sole god--proper monotheism. But when the ancient Hebrews are first evidenced in the historical record centuries later, they are not monotheistic but monolatrous, meaning they worship one, favored god (Yahweh) but recognize the existence of other gods. They became monotheistic centuries later (in the 6th century BCE). Had they started as Aten worshipers they would have already been monotheistic.

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This thunder/rain god bears a lot of resemblance to the Ancient Philistine deity "BAAL" (whom if you remember your bible study class was pretty much the Devil/Satan of the old testament.)

The only relationship between the Jews and and Egyptians besides the exodus story is the ancient "Shepard Kings"/"Foreign Rulers" of the "Hyksos" post middle kingdom.

We know they were from the Mesopotamian region (all it means is that they were Semites not necessarily Hebrews)

and we also know that the time span correlates with the so-called exodus and the repelling of foreign rule in Eqypt.

I also read somewhere that the cult of Amon was the key factor in relinquishing these nomad ruling class.

I am interested to know as well if anyone has more information....

No, the Jew-Hyksos relationship has been disproved by archeology. There might have been some people from Palestine in there, but certainly not Jews.

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You should read Kamal Salibi' s books:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Kamal_Salibi

Kamal Salibi wrote three books advocating the controversial "Israel in Arabia" theory. In this view, the place names of the Hebrew Bible actually allude to places in southwest Arabia; many of them were later reinterpreted to refer to places in Palestine, when the Arabian Hebrews migrated to what is now called Eretz Israel, and where they established the Hasmonean kingdom under Simon Maccabaeus in the second century B.C. In this new Israel, they switched from Hebrew to Aramaic. It was this switch in language that created the confusions which lead to the distortion of the immigrants' stories. He also argued that 'Lebanon' itself in high antiquity was a place in the Southern Arabian peninsula.

.

he's not that renowned and i can't judge on his work because i never read it

but middle east history is best told be people with great renowned such as " ibn khaldun " or " al tabaree "

these two are veteran ih history and some times offer more than one theory of the general idea

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he's not that renowned and i can't judge on his work because i never read it

but middle east history is best told be people with great renowned such as " ibn khaldun " or " al tabaree "

these two are veteran ih history and some times offer more than one theory of the general idea

I know his ideas are heavily disputed, but when I combine his conclusion about the origin of the Hebrews with the ideas from Dr Nissim Raphael Ganor

http://www.unexplain...owentry=26483

who thinks that the Phoenicians and the Hebrews are one and the same people and originating from Arabia, then it suddenly seems to become a possibility.

Btw, I have the Dutch edition of Kamal Salibi's book.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I know his ideas are heavily disputed, but when I combine his conclusion about the origin of the Hebrews with the ideas from Dr Nissim Raphael Ganor

http://www.unexplain...owentry=26483

who thinks that the Phoenicians and the Hebrews are one and the same people and originating from Arabia, then it suddenly seems to become a possibility.

Btw, I have the Dutch edition of Kamal Salibi's book.

.

well yeah i've already argued in some topics that phoenicians are also arabs who immigrated from arabia

there was more than few tribes that travelled outside arabia and settled around in middle east

although they did not speak arabic for sure but their root came from arabia , canannites , phonicians and many more

historians even argue that phoroahs were also one of those tribes that immigrated from arabia also aramic people

so it's no surprise the jews or herbew root comes from arabic source

and yes arabs and jews or herbews weather both sides liked it or not they are related cousins

i know the name of the tribes who immigrated from arabia but it skipped my mind at the moment

as the jews or herbews trace their history and link it to one of abraham sons before that there was no herbews or jews

they were arabs , as was abraham

it's more of religious splitting that happend than racial differences

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Soooo, no one dug the video's BIG outro, ehhh?

post-136776-0-49906900-1359303476_thumb.

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Soooo, no one dug the video's BIG outro, ehhh?

Uhmmm... true, it was funny, but I did not hear anything new.

And what you said in that video has been refuted already on this site.

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Uhmmm... true, it was funny, but I did not hear anything new.

And what you said in that video has been refuted already on this site.

Well, if you didn't hear anything "New" you've must of listened to one of my recordings before

'cause I'm the first person, that I know of, to make the "AMEN" connection.

BTW Not a single refutation exists in any of the replies; the latest, know to myself & published in

"Nature," DNA research only states that the DNA evidence shows that Jewish folk originated in the Near-East &

Egypt is considered part of that geo-sphere.

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The Jews went to Ancient Egypt for food and shelter after a famine swept across their land. Besides that, they are no more Egyptian than the Egyptians are Jewish.

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For more than a century, Jews and non-Jews alike have tried to define the relatedness of contemporary Jewish people. Previous genetic studies of blood group and serum markers suggested that Jewish groups had Middle Eastern origin with greater genetic similarity between paired Jewish populations. However, these and successor studies of monoallelic Y chromosomal and mitochondrial genetic markers did not resolve the issues of within and between-group Jewish genetic identity. Here, genome-wide analysis of seven Jewish groups (Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, Italian, Turkish, Greek, and Ashkenazi) and comparison with non-Jewish groups demonstrated distinctive Jewish population clusters, each with shared Middle Eastern ancestry, proximity to contemporary Middle Eastern populations, and variable degrees of European and North African admixture. Two major groups were identified by principal component, phylogenetic,

and identity by descent (IBD) analysis: Middle Eastern Jews and European/Syrian Jews. The IBD segment sharing and the proximity of European Jews to each other and to southern European populations suggested similar origins for European Jewry and refuted large-scale genetic contributions of Central and Eastern European and Slavic populations to the formation of Ashkenazi Jewry. Rapid decay of IBD in Ashkenazi Jewish genomes was consistent with a severe bottleneck followed by large expansion, such as occurred with the so-called demographic miracle of population expansion from 50,000 people at the beginning of the 15th century to 5,000,000 people at the beginning of the 19th century. Thus, this study demonstrates that European/Syrian and Middle Eastern Jews represent a series of geographical isolates or clusters woven together by shared IBD genetic threads.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....72/pdf/main.pdf

Source:

Abraham's Children in the Genome Era: Major Jewish Diaspora Populations Comprise Distinct Genetic Clusters with Shared Middle Eastern Ancestry

DOI 10.1016/j.ajhg.2010.04.015. ª2010 by The American Society of Human Genetics

North African admixture DOES NOT constitute an Egyptian origin.

Contemporary Jews comprise an aggregate of ethno-religious communities whose worldwide members identify with each other through various shared religious, historical and cultural traditions. Historical evidence suggests common origins in the Middle East, followed by migrations leading to the establishment of communities of Jews in Europe, Africa and Asia, in what is termed the Jewish Diaspora.

http://bhusers.upf.e...2/Behar2010.pdf

Source:

The genome-wide structure of the Jewish people (2010)

doi:10.1038/nature09103

A Jewish Diaspora INTO Africa doesn't not constitute an origin FROM Africa.

cormac

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