Get rid of the Constitution

[questionmark]

Ahh, it seems we helped Pinochet out...

That is putting it mildly.

[F3SS]

That is putting it mildly.

Well was I right about you're point? What I believed was your point....

[questionmark]

Well was I right about you're point? What I believed was your point....

My point is that this guy had about 10,000 loyal military and the CIA, Allende had been voted in by the majority of Chileans (don't remember how big the population was). Revolutions are generally made by minorities (yes, the founding fathers were a minority compared to the rest of the United Kingdom) and generally end in changing the system to the contrary of what it was (i.e. Democracies into Dictatorships and vice versa) or in parts of the population separating themselves from the rest (i.e. The US of A from the United Kingdom).

[WoIverine]

So, we get rid of the constitution to replace it with what exactly?

Ever see someone who was highly educated...but didn't have common sense enough to open a door prior to walking through it? I give you Louis Michael Seidman. Louis, let's begin by revoking your first amendment rights.

[F3SS]

My point is that this guy had about 10,000 loyal military and the CIA, Allende had been voted in by the majority of Chileans (don't remember how big the population was). Revolutions are generally made by minorities (yes, the founding fathers were a minority compared to the rest of the United Kingdom) and generally end in changing the system to the contrary of what it was (i.e. Democracies into Dictatorships and vice versa) or in parts of the population separating themselves from the rest (i.e. The US of A from the United Kingdom).

Alright. I see you're points. Guess I just have a vision of how things should play out. I think more along the lines of a restoration than a revolution I guess. Charlie Manson had a vision too. His was a revolution. And no, I don't care for his vision.

[sslama]

Revolutions occur when the peoples needs are not being met. This means access to food, clothing, shelter and basic human rights. When people loose hope they will rebel.

[AsteroidX]

Thats a false statement.

Declaration on Independence (a Revolution of significance around here)

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

The 56 signatures on the Declaration appear in the positions indicated:

Column 1

Georgia:

Button Gwinnett

Lyman Hall

George Walton

Column 2

North Carolina:

William Hooper

Joseph Hewes

John Penn

South Carolina:

Edward Rutledge

Thomas Heyward, Jr.

Thomas Lynch, Jr.

Arthur Middleton

Column 3

Massachusetts:

John Hancock

Maryland:

Samuel Chase

William Paca

Thomas Stone

Charles Carroll of Carrollton

Virginia:

George Wythe

Richard Henry Lee

Thomas Jefferson

Benjamin Harrison

Thomas Nelson, Jr.

Francis Lightfoot Lee

Carter Braxton

Column 4

Pennsylvania:

Robert Morris

Benjamin Rush

Benjamin Franklin

John Morton

George Clymer

James Smith

George Taylor

James Wilson

George Ross

Delaware:

Caesar Rodney

George Read

Thomas McKean

Column 5

New York:

William Floyd

Philip Livingston

Francis Lewis

Lewis Morris

New Jersey:

Richard Stockton

John Witherspoon

Francis Hopkinson

John Hart

Abraham Clark

Column 6

New Hampshire:

Josiah Bartlett

William Whipple

Massachusetts:

Samuel Adams

John Adams

Robert Treat Paine

Elbridge Gerry

Rhode Island:

Stephen Hopkins

William Ellery

Connecticut:

Roger Sherman

Samuel Huntington

William Williams

Oliver Wolcott

New Hampshire:

Matthew Thornton

[questionmark]

Thats a false statement.

Declaration on Independence (a Revolution of significance around here)

Let's see, population of the first British Empire ~ 1770 around 50 millions, population of the American colonies at the same time around 2.1 millions.... I fail to see a majority there...

[AsteroidX]

It does not take a majority to be revolutionary. Only unyielding determination.

(and my comment wasnt directed at you Q this time like the y so often are on this topic )

Edited January 28, 2013 by AsteroidX

[questionmark]

It does not take a majority to be revolutionary. Only unyielding determination.

And that is my point, so the question is: If you want to have a revolution in the US what is going to be the end of it? In the best of cases a separation of territories, in the worst a dictatorship. Because right now there seems to be no majority to change the system, if there was, the system would be changed through the normal electoral process.

[Stellar]

That is where you are wrong, majority of the people in the country know this is our right, part of our constitution and shouldn't never be compromised. The majority is silent, it is the minority that is screaming the loudest to remove our rights because it is their agenda. They are trying to pull in more supporters, trying to get people to give up their rights with seductive words, then slandering those who want to protect those rights. There has been nothing but a smear campaign by the extreme left for decades upon decades. I got news for them, there will be no such thing as paradise upon earth. When you give up guns, you are opening a can of worms you never will be able to close again. The politicians and the government fears the citizens who are armed, they don't fear protests or picketing, they fear people who have guns and willing to use them to remove them from office. Take a moment and think upon this.

Two things:

1. How do you know its not the majority? What tells you this.

2. What if the majority do in fact believe its not a right? Then what? Would you still advocate rebellion?

[aztek]

Two things:

1. How do you know its not the majority? What tells you this.

2. What if the majority do in fact believe its not a right? Then what? Would you still advocate rebellion?

1, he lives in usa, you don't. also if you followed news, and other related threads you would not be asking this question. it is pretty clear, he is right.

2. when it happens then we talk about it. but we'll see pig fly sooner tham majority throw away freedom and rights. something you can't grasp, as you keep showing again and again.

Edited January 28, 2013 by aztek

[AsteroidX]

I would advocate secession and dividing the country. The groups are large enough that minus another Bloody chapter in American history that secession would be the more sensible approach.

Or is our tax dollars needed so much to keep the mighty military machine propped up.

Dont get me wrong secession would be a very difficult event in American history and both sides would suffer many hardships during a period of restabilizing but it would avoid the bloody path we are current running headfirst into.

[aztek]

why should we ruin entire country and leave the same jerks in charge? why not change those in charge? and keep entire country as a whole, those that don't like it can move to canada

[Stellar]

why should we ruin entire country and leave the same jerks in charge? why not change those in charge? and keep entire country as a whole, those that don't like it can move to canada

Why not leave those elected in charge, and those who don't like them can move to Canada?

[AsteroidX]

Theres the bloodbath to consider. Im all for keeping it whole if that can be avoided. But changing the government in whole or in a great proportion as a must do.

Im just not sure theyll get it until someone secedes again. And I have so low trust in the Government now I may never regain it. Ill take the Constitution and rebuild if necessary.

[aztek]

Why not leave those elected in charge, and those who don't like them can move to Canada?

lol, we americans like to fix problems not run away from them. and besides it would be total couterproductive falure. i'm not surpriced you don't get it.

Edited January 28, 2013 by aztek

[AsteroidX]

Why not leave those elected in charge, and those who don't like them can move to Canada?

Because many of the elected government in Washington are in violation of the Oath of offices they took.

[aztek]

Theres the bloodbath to consider. Im all for keeping it whole if that can be avoided. But changing the government in whole or in a great proportion as a must do.

Im just not sure theyll get it until someone secedes again. And I have so low trust in the Government now I may never regain it. Ill take the Constitution and rebuild if necessary.

either way you can't avoid bloodbath, if i have to spill my blood i'll do it for the reasons i choose.

[Stellar]

Because many of the elected government in Washington are in violation of the Oath of offices they took.

That's what you say, but plenty of people disagree.

[AsteroidX]

You know we are of the same ilk aztec

[aztek]

That's what you say, but plenty of people disagree.

canadian ppl?

[AsteroidX]

That's what you say, but plenty of people disagree.

define plenty please

I know given time I can define the people I speak of but they prefer to remain Anonymous to a large degree.

[Stellar]

define plenty please

I know given time I can define the people I speak of but they prefer to remain Anonymous to a large degree.

Plenty, as in, a lot. What I'm saying is that there are people in the US that don't consider what Obama did to violate any rights. Do you disagree? Do you mean to tell me that everyone believes he is violating people's rights?

[AsteroidX]

Plenty, as in, a lot. What I'm saying is that there are people in the US that don't consider what Obama did to violate any rights. Do you disagree? Do you mean to tell me that everyone believes he is violating people's rights?

No. I believe in sheeple. So you are correct. I just believe that number is dropping by the hour.