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manbearpigg

Problem of Evil

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I'm sure everyone here is familiar with the problem of evil but just in case here it goes:

1) GOD (in the Abrahamic Religions) is omnipotent (ALL ABLE), omniscient (ALL KNOWING) and omni-benevolent (ALL LOVING).

2) EVIL/SIN exists (again in the religious sense.)

3) GOD is not one of those three things thus the GOD that many major religions believe does not exist.

The COUNTERARGUMENT:

1) What we perceive as evil can be good in GOD's plan

2) In order to know and experience GOOD there must be a relative EVIL (light/shadow theology)

3) As an ANT cannot fathom the renaissance or computers, WE cannot fathom GOD's actions.

This is my COUNTER-COUNTERARGUMENT:

1) if God is all powerful why does not create an alternate reality without the need for evil? (AKA HEAVEN?)

2) If God Is all knowing, why does did he go through the process of creating something that he does not desire?

3) If God is all loving, what happens to those who are not fortunate enough to know or even hear one of the three major Abrahamic Religions? (CHRISTIANITY, ISLAM, JUDAISM)

Seriously, what proof do you have that God exists besides personal testimonials?

what proof do you have against the fact that people have existed before the founding of these religions?

what would you say if i told you that the modern bible was CREATED in 325AD by the first council of NICAEA?

Where is your God now?

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This is my COUNTER-COUNTERARGUMENT:

1) if God is all powerful why does not create an alternate reality without the need for evil? (AKA HEAVEN?)

2) If God Is all knowing, why does did he go through the process of creating something that he does not desire?

3) If God is all loving, what happens to those who are not fortunate enough to know or even hear one of the three major Abrahamic Religions? (CHRISTIANITY, ISLAM, JUDAISM)

1) Heaven is a reward for the faithful.

2) Perhaps what God envisioned for man was a utopiac society that He could dwell amongst but sin and transgression occurred, the nature of man was transformed and mankind will never enjoy a utopaic society for it neither enjoy God's dwelling anymore.

3) Man lost his relationship with God, and because of this, man turned his heart to worshipping idols and false gods. God in His own good time repaired that relationship. What happened before and what happens after is to be determined by God.

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You're argument/debate against God is flawed.

You are trying to disprove god, by using religions that are man made.

Man made Religion and Man wrote the religious books.

You could also say Man made up God.

But both are very different.

If there is a God, then God will be something we probably can't even begin to imagine. Because how can we imagine something we haven't seen the likes of before?

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You're argument/debate against God is flawed.

You are trying to disprove god, by using religions that are man made.

Man made Religion and Man wrote the religious books.

You could also say Man made up God.

But both are very different.

If there is a God, then God will be something we probably can't even begin to imagine. Because how can we imagine something we haven't seen the likes of before?

It is flawed but it is purposefully flawed since this is an argument against those who believe in a CHRISTIAN GOD.

obviously a scientific argument would be as simple as where are the dinosaurs in biblical stories? or Why does GOD promote genocide?

I think its obvious to most the MAN has created the MODERN GOD who is this ultimate perfect being who plays by his own rules.

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It is flawed but it is purposefully flawed since this is an argument against those who believe in a CHRISTIAN GOD.

obviously a scientific argument would be as simple as where are the dinosaurs in biblical stories? or Why does GOD promote genocide?

I think its obvious to most the MAN has created the MODERN GOD who is this ultimate perfect being who plays by his own rules.

Well you need to be more specific that your argument is aimed at the Christian God, or the bible.

Humans wrote the bible though, so how would they have had knowledge of dinosaurs?

Where does God promote genocide? The bible again was written by humans.

You are disproving the Bible, but that doesn't disprove God and most people know these things anyway.

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It is flawed but it is purposefully flawed since this is an argument against those who believe in a CHRISTIAN GOD.

obviously a scientific argument would be as simple as where are the dinosaurs in biblical stories? or Why does GOD promote genocide?

I think its obvious to most the MAN has created the MODERN GOD who is this ultimate perfect being who plays by his own rules.

The same God that perceives mankind to be utterly and completely corrupt and depraved.

In other words, we are corrupt and depraved creatures to the Christian God.

EDIT: What we can perceive as ordinary day-to-day character flaws are perceived as sin by a holy and incorruptible God, sins worthy of our spiritual deaths. Whether it be lying, cheating, lusting, adulterous, idolatrous, cruelty, abusiveness, violence, greediness, stinginess, wrathfulness, etc, etc.

Edited by B Jenkins

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1) Heaven is a reward for the faithful.

2) Perhaps what God envisioned for man was a utopiac society that He could dwell amongst but sin and transgression occurred, the nature of man was transformed and mankind will never enjoy a utopaic society for it neither enjoy God's dwelling anymore.

3) Man lost his relationship with God, and because of this, man turned his heart to worshipping idols and false gods. God in His own good time repaired that relationship. What happened before and what happens after is to be determined by God.

1)Why does not God only create the faithful? if it is due to free will the very action of creation denies us of free will since he is all knowing and knows which one of us are gonna be "BAD" of "UNFAITHFUL"

2) If so, how can we say that he is all knowing, loving and/or powerful? He is GOD he should have known that his creations would not behave as he wants.

3) I think what you are saying is that you do not know what happens to those who are not aware of GOD, before or after.

However the answer is simple since there is only TWO possible outcomes.

a) God punishes those who do not know by sending them to "HELL"

B) God forgives those who do not know by accepting them into "HEAVEN"

if a) is true GOD is not benevolent, he is unjust and the billions of people born before the spread of any religions in areas unreachable by others are unjustly sent to eternal damnation.

if B) is true God is inconsistent since he gives certain people freebies while others who FOLLOW him are subjugated to a life denied of sexual pleasure, self-love, other things that religions limit or cause (Gender inequality, bigotry, war). Second if B) is true Believers should not spread the message or the gospel since not-knowing gives you a free ticket to heaven. THUS those who preach if B) is true are just increasing the hell population.

if you think there's a middle ground like purgatory or non-existence by blight, i dunno... sounds hellish yet still.

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The same God that perceives mankind to be utterly and completely corrupt and depraved.

In other words, we are corrupt and depraved creatures to the Christian God.

If "god" made man in his image, that would make him depraved also. (I happen to think "god" is the very definition of depraved)

http://drunkwithblood.com/

Edited by HavocWing

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Well you need to be more specific that your argument is aimed at the Christian God, or the bible.

Humans wrote the bible though, so how would they have had knowledge of dinosaurs?

Where does God promote genocide? The bible again was written by humans.

You are disproving the Bible, but that doesn't disprove God and most people know these things anyway.

I must have not been clear, sorry about that.

My argument is a continuation of the PROBLEM OF EVIL so any Abrahamic GODS.

or better yet, any religion that believe that their God is all knowing powerful and loving.

and God promoted Genocide in the old testament when he ordered the killings of ALL Amorites (man women child animals even!) and was FURIOUS at Saul for not completing the tasks.

Second the Canaanites during the exodus were repelled from their lands and murdered as we see what happens to the residents of Jericho etc..

theres a lot more Im just too lazy to look it up.

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1)Why does not God only create the faithful? if it is due to free will the very action of creation denies us of free will since he is all knowing and knows which one of us are gonna be "BAD" of "UNFAITHFUL"

2) If so, how can we say that he is all knowing, loving and/or powerful? He is GOD he should have known that his creations would not behave as he wants.

3) I think what you are saying is that you do not know what happens to those who are not aware of GOD, before or after.

However the answer is simple since there is only TWO possible outcomes.

a) God punishes those who do not know by sending them to "HELL"

B) God forgives those who do not know by accepting them into "HEAVEN"

if a) is true GOD is not benevolent, he is unjust and the billions of people born before the spread of any religions in areas unreachable by others are unjustly sent to eternal damnation.

if B) is true God is inconsistent since he gives certain people freebies while others who FOLLOW him are subjugated to a life denied of sexual pleasure, self-love, other things that religions limit or cause (Gender inequality, bigotry, war). Second if B) is true Believers should not spread the message or the gospel since not-knowing gives you a free ticket to heaven. THUS those who preach if B) is true are just increasing the hell population.

if you think there's a middle ground like purgatory or non-existence by blight, i dunno... sounds hellish yet still.

1) It does say the path to life is narrow, and wide is the path to destruction. God perhaps maintains high standards.

2) Before sin perhaps there wasnt a hell.

3) What I said, who goes to hell and who goes to heaven is determined by God alone. He has the final word. But if those that dont know him... than why is there a Gospel required? Why is it required to preach?

Additionally, everyone will be judged for sin whether they know God or not. Their very natures will condemn them before God.

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I must have not been clear, sorry about that.

My argument is a continuation of the PROBLEM OF EVIL so any Abrahamic GODS.

or better yet, any religion that believe that their God is all knowing powerful and loving.

and God promoted Genocide in the old testament when he ordered the killings of ALL Amorites (man women child animals even!) and was FURIOUS at Saul for not completing the tasks.

Second the Canaanites during the exodus were repelled from their lands and murdered as we see what happens to the residents of Jericho etc..

theres a lot more Im just too lazy to look it up.

All those things where written by people though. There is no evidence a God did those things. If there is a God, it probably cares for all life the same. Or it would know things on a higher level which means life isn't that important to individuals.

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Let me sum up my theory on those not raised to know the Abrahamic God, when they encounter Him in death. They will know their sins and be ashamed for them and condemned for them because His love will burn right through their souls. They will be horrified and disgusted of themselves and their impure hateful acts and thoughts they ENJOYED living upon the Earth. I believe the unsaved will witness themselves in much the manner God witnessed them throughout their whole lost lives. Not only is God going to condemn them but their own consciences will condemn themselves as well. They will know their unworthiness. In fact, they will probably want to flee from God out of sheer terror and shame.

Just my .02 cents worth.

Edited by B Jenkins

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Humans wrote the bible though, so how would they have had knowledge of dinosaurs?

Mabey they found a bone or found a dead whale on a beach somewhere. If I was an alive a long time ago and found a fish fossile on some mountain I might conclude ( without any knowledge of earth science) that there was a very high flood at some point.

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All those things where written by people though. There is no evidence a God did those things. If there is a God, it probably cares for all life the same. Or it would know things on a higher level which means life isn't that important to individuals.

I think we stand on the same page in that we are both labeled "Agnostic" in that we don't assume or preach absolutism.

I think its far more logical to believe in a "GOD" or the supernatural when contemplating St. Aquinas and Newton.

for every action there is a reaction, every action is thus just a reaction of another reaction.

the first mover is Supernatural and not provable by science.

"GOD" or some other being/thing is that supernatural entity.

or not.

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I think we stand on the same page in that we are both labeled "Agnostic" in that we don't assume or preach absolutism.

I think its far more logical to believe in a "GOD" or the supernatural when contemplating St. Aquinas and Newton.

for every action there is a reaction, every action is thus just a reaction of another reaction.

the first mover is Supernatural and not provable by science.

"GOD" or some other being/thing is that supernatural entity.

or not.

Yes I agree with that to an extent.

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Seriously, what proof do you have that God exists besides personal testimonials?

If people dating back to 2000 years or more, wrote something down about god, then that is proof.. If they believed so should we

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If people dating back to 2000 years or more, wrote something down about god, then that is proof.. If they believed so should we

I disagree. In that same logic, we should believe that Dragons existed long ago.

In that same logic 2000 years from now, people should believe that dragonball was real and GOKU existed.

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I disagree. In that same logic, we should believe that Dragons existed long ago.

I believe they did, in fact I believe that god could be a dragon... They wrote it all those years ago, so because it is ancient, I see no reason why they would ever make up tales.. I had a dream about going to heaven and god was a massive dragon.. In the bible, god paid many people a visit in their dreams, so I must be just like them :yes:

n that same logic 2000 years from now, people should believe that dragonball was real and GOKU existed.

Whatever floats their boat.. Or should I say , slays their dragonball lol

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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I believe they did, in fact I believe that god could be a dragon... They wrote it all those years ago, so because it is ancient, I see no reason why they would ever make up tales.. I had a dream about going to heaven and god was a massive dragon.. In the bible, god paid many people a visit in their dreams, so I must be just like them :yes:

Whatever floats their boat.. Or should I say , slays their dragonball lol

lol at that last part.

and I believe that dragons are the mystic personification of our ancient Dinosaur brethren.

but back to what I was saying, there many diverse views on god or gods depending on region, time, type of group (homogeneous or not).

we can't take ALL their accounts and many of them contradicting one another (like male/female deities, multiple/singular, good god/legalistic god etc).

AND yes the unifying element in all this is that all the ancient groups did worship a form of a deity but many were spirits from nature (trees rocks animals). Thus in that logic, must we give credibility in shamanism and the worship of nature? (druids?) Isn't that kind of against what our modern abrahamic god commands us to do? (one god worship and no pagan idols)

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Yes I agree with that to an extent.

not trying to start a fight here, but which part did you find less than satisfactory?

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lol at that last part.

and I believe that dragons are the mystic personification of our ancient Dinosaur brethren.

but back to what I was saying, there many diverse views on god or gods depending on region, time, type of group (homogeneous or not).

we can't take ALL their accounts and many of them contradicting one another (like male/female deities, multiple/singular, good god/legalistic god etc).

AND yes the unifying element in all this is that all the ancient groups did worship a form of a deity but many were spirits from nature (trees rocks animals). Thus in that logic, must we give credibility in shamanism and the worship of nature? (druids?) Isn't that kind of against what our modern abrahamic god commands us to do? (one god worship and no pagan idols)

I believe in diversity of gods, and I should point out that although the bible says, not to worship other gods, but see that same god speaks of tolerance and acceptance, so I take that he means acceptance of other peoples gods and faith too BUT I can add, you're wrong and you might burn for it....If I am wrong, I can always pray like hell on my death bed to all the gods, in the hopes of catching the right one..

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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I'm sure everyone here is familiar with the problem of evil but just in case here it goes:

1) GOD (in the Abrahamic Religions) is omnipotent (ALL ABLE), omniscient (ALL KNOWING) and omni-benevolent (ALL LOVING).

2) EVIL/SIN exists (again in the religious sense.)

3) GOD is not one of those three things thus the GOD that many major religions believe does not exist.

Not so fast. ALL your premises above are inaccurate. Although you follow mainstream/public thought, these are misconceptions and inaccuracies.

1) No where in the Bible (except the post-exilic literature of deutero-Isaiah perhaps) is Yahweh presented as omnipotent, omniscient, and especially not omni-benevolent. All of these are later theological ideas that get brought into the tradition from the Greek philosophical tradition. The over-arching theological premises of the biblical writers was that Yahweh is sovereign. This means that he controls ALL national, historical, and personal events. Here are some biblical quotes that exemplify this

Ex 4:11: "Who makes a person dumb or deaf, gives sight or makes blind? Is it not I, Yahweh!"

Amos 3:6: "Should evil befall a city and Yahweh has not done it?"

Is 45:6-7: "I am Yahweh and there is none other; I fashion light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil. I am Yahweh who does all these things!"

I would furthermore argue that our 20th century conception and use of "God" does not equal the biblical writers, as you misplaced premises strongly suggest. We have, in short, invented new gods, and new religions, and assigned them as the old ones since the latter have become part of an authoritative tradition.

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Srd44:

I think you have this thread confused. No judgment here.

My argument is against that very same mainstream thought of a perfect abrahamic god.

The reason i use theology and mainstream beliefs is the same reason why socrates did what he did.

The use of rhetoric is to turn ones own words/beliefs against himself.

Yes the bible is a loose collection of hebrew/arabic/greek and possibly post-roman european writings.

Yes the biblical god is not at all what the majority thinks, especially the old testament god.

All i am doing is fighting fire with fire since water does not proove effective against the close hearted.

Again no animosity here what so ever.

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Oh and yes we have created the modern "god" .

If we travel to the 15th century to the dawn of the religious reformation, our modern christians would have been burned at the stake for heresy no doubt.

Reinventions and reforming old gods to fit the new is an old game no?

God: osiris: zeus: odin

Mary: isis: hera: freya

Jesus: ra or horus: dionysus: thor

All share virgin birth, creationism, human sacrifice, demi-gods.

And yes i am forgetting zorasterism and mithrasim but i need to research more before speaking on these subjects.

Sorry i cant quote im on my phone...

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God was built with an agenda and so reflects the agenda of the humans that created it/him. Seeing god act like a dictator and genocidal maniac in one passage and then like a hippy in the other should be proof enough that the idea of him is convoluted. It's a great form of manipulation actually; like hugging someone warmly and lovingly while telling them that if they **** with you, you'll kill them. He's imperfect because the movement of time dictates him to be so, in our age of justice and law as opposed to the period in which he was fabricated: the Bronze Age, where our laws were more barbaric than they are now, although it's important to note that some of those barbaric laws have survived in the birth land of Christianity and yet many Christians would agree that stoning a woman to death in the Middle East for having Pre-marital sex is wrong...even though it was right at the time and is still acceptable among adderants of a new strand of the Abrahamic religions: Islam.

I wonder what God will be like in 100'000 years time. I predict nothing like Yahweh or Allah or any of the others, well mostly at least.

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