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Top analyst from CIA compares apartheid

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I agree completely. But we are discussing Jews, remember? They do not yet accept Christ or His message. You are either confusing or denying the point . Christ IS the blessing to the world that God promised would come out of Israel. He has. And some day, hopefully not long off now, they will see Him and mourn for Him as one who mourns an only son.

Like the biblical Armageddon, that's not gonna happen.

I think I'm confused by your weaving all over the road with what you're saying. First that most Israelis are atheist. Okay. Now you're talking about observant Jewish believers. That's different. Either way it doesn't address what I was replying to. In your response you said "As a Christian I assume you will agree that..." and " I actually believe this promise", so we weren't discussing "Jews", we were discussing Christians, or at least our interpretation of what that means. It doesn't matter what Israelis believe, if you're really a Christian you should follow Jesus's teachings not just believe in his identity per the New Testament. Israelis who violate Jesus's teachings because of what they believe is no excuse for you to support it. As a Christian that has nothing to do with what you should believe, support, think or do.

As for the Zionist line that "those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will be cursed" it has nothing to do with this nationalistic manifestation of that land just because they chose an ancient name for it. That land was that land before the Zionists came in. The indigenous people are the real Semites, they're the real children of Jerusalem, they're the real blood with ties to the ancient people. Not these white European transplants who light the same candles at Hanukkah and had political designs on a global bureaucracy with a real estate deal for them.

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Like the biblical Armageddon, that's not gonna happen.

I think I'm confused by your weaving all over the road with what you're saying. First that most Israelis are atheist. Okay. Now you're talking about observant Jewish believers. That's different. Either way it doesn't address what I was replying to. In your response you said "As a Christian I assume you will agree that..." and " I actually believe this promise", so we weren't discussing "Jews", we were discussing Christians, or at least our interpretation of what that means. It doesn't matter what Israelis believe, if you're really a Christian you should follow Jesus's teachings not just believe in his identity per the New Testament. Israelis who violate Jesus's teachings because of what they believe is no excuse for you to support it. As a Christian that has nothing to do with what you should believe, support, think or do.

As for the Zionist line that "those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will be cursed" it has nothing to do with this nationalistic manifestation of that land just because they chose an ancient name for it. That land was that land before the Zionists came in. The indigenous people are the real Semites, they're the real children of Jerusalem, they're the real blood with ties to the ancient people. Not these white European transplants who light the same candles at Hanukkah and had political designs on a global bureaucracy with a real estate deal for them.

I do not believe the rhetoric of the current inhabitants of ISRAEL being not Jews in any sense of the word. It's just a way to hate them without admitting it as far as I'm concerned. It's just dishonest. It's saying you're okay with Jews as long as they hate themselves and their destiny.

You're a young man, Yam - and I suspect you will see those Jews in their land for your entire life. That's a long time to hate anything or anyone.

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I do not believe the rhetoric of the current inhabitants of ISRAEL being not Jews in any sense of the word. It's just a way to hate them without admitting it as far as I'm concerned. It's just dishonest. It's saying you're okay with Jews as long as they hate themselves and their destiny.

You're a young man, Yam - and I suspect you will see those Jews in their land for your entire life. That's a long time to hate anything or anyone.

I don't believe in "self-hating Jews" that's the usual Zionist anti-Semitism. What's dishonest is to deny that many Jews are anti-Zionist like I am. I also don't believe in their "destiny" that you imagine, nor any particular religion's claim to exclusivity. Jesus was a Jew, a Christian and a Muslim. You refer to stories in the Bible, connect fragments and figments of them to today's politics and nationalism, and then chide others for not accepting your imagination.

And you contradict yourself again. You've repeatedly claimed that Armageddon is coming to Israel and now you're telling me what I've been saying to you all along. That they're not going to die or be displaced. They're going to reform their policies from within. Whether or not they exterminate Palestine in their ongoing genocide is the question.

If you even believed what you say, Israel is in God's hands, and so it's a complete waste of money. If it's God's plan, God will sort it out without a money pit of evil being necessary in the meantime. You should be more supportive of my position than I am if I take what you say you believe at face value. My position is and has been simple and clear: Cut 100% of all foreign aid and abandon the UN.

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I don't believe in "self-hating Jews" that's the usual Zionist anti-Semitism. What's dishonest is to deny that many Jews are anti-Zionist like I am. I also don't believe in their "destiny" that you imagine, nor any particular religion's claim to exclusivity. Jesus was a Jew, a Christian and a Muslim. You refer to stories in the Bible, connect fragments and figments of them to today's politics and nationalism, and then chide others for not accepting your imagination.

And you contradict yourself again. You've repeatedly claimed that Armageddon is coming to Israel and now you're telling me what I've been saying to you all along. That they're not going to die or be displaced. They're going to reform their policies from within. Whether or not they exterminate Palestine in their ongoing genocide is the question.

If you even believed what you say, Israel is in God's hands, and so it's a complete waste of money. If it's God's plan, God will sort it out without a money pit of evil being necessary in the meantime. You should be more supportive of my position than I am if I take what you say you believe at face value. My position is and has been simple and clear: Cut 100% of all foreign aid and abandon the UN.

Yam, you do not actually read what I say. Armageddon is both a location and a battle and it WILL happen. I rarely speak of it. The death of 2/3 of the Jewish people is spoken of in scripture so I believe it will happen regardless what I say or how you feel. The fact that you dismiss what I say and believe does not then give you the right to say that I am being inconsistent. Israel will continue to exist as a nation even though only a remnant of her people will survive. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. Her enemies are going to be worse off by far than Israel is in those days. And, finally, and for probably the twentieth time, the point I have tried to make to those of secular mind here at UM is that IF the US abandons Israel and leaves it to fend for itself militarily then it only quickens the day when the rest of her enemies will decide Israel is vulnerable and come against it with such combined force that it precipitates use of nuclear weapons. That isn't a difficult concept for a person capable of unbiased logic. For those who hate what Israel represents though, they can only continue to imagine that somehow, some way, Israel will "vanish from the pages of history". THAT is anti biblical. Call them less than Jew, tell me they are illegitimate repeat any litany you like but it will change nothing. Actively hoping for Israel to be defeated is a dangerous game - personally - for you or anyone else Yam. That is, if you take God at His word.

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Posted (edited)

Yam, you do not actually read what I say. Armageddon is both a location and a battle and it WILL happen. I rarely speak of it. The death of 2/3 of the Jewish people is spoken of in scripture so I believe it will happen regardless what I say or how you feel. The fact that you dismiss what I say and believe does not then give you the right to say that I am being inconsistent. Israel will continue to exist as a nation even though only a remnant of her people will survive. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. Her enemies are going to be worse off by far than Israel is in those days. And, finally, and for probably the twentieth time, the point I have tried to make to those of secular mind here at UM is that IF the US abandons Israel and leaves it to fend for itself militarily then it only quickens the day when the rest of her enemies will decide Israel is vulnerable and come against it with such combined force that it precipitates use of nuclear weapons. That isn't a difficult concept for a person capable of unbiased logic. For those who hate what Israel represents though, they can only continue to imagine that somehow, some way, Israel will "vanish from the pages of history". THAT is anti biblical. Call them less than Jew, tell me they are illegitimate repeat any litany you like but it will change nothing. Actively hoping for Israel to be defeated is a dangerous game - personally - for you or anyone else Yam. That is, if you take God at His word.

You just don't/won't or can't understand your inconsistency, this nonchalant contradiction of logic. It's so simple it's impossible to misunderstand. Armageddon, according to Bible prophecy, is going to happen in Israel. Every Jew that lives in Israel, or 2/3s according to you, will die. Stop supporting Jews moving to Israel - and save their lives. Stop jamming them into the furnace! If you believe the prophecy, which you've said you do 100 times, then every Jew that doesn't move to Israel is another life saved. You have no respect for the lives of Jews or any desire to save them if you believe this biblical mumbo jumbo and support Zionist migration policy.

Israel is not "the Jews" but if you can keep pumping Zionist propaganda all over the internet and get 2/3s of all world Jewry into the place, then all your propaganda will be technically true. Judaism is a religion that's thousands of years old. It doesn't need the political/nationalistic ideology of Zionism to define it.

How many times does the hammer have to hit your head before you can acknowledge this? AGAIN, Ahmadinejad was quoting the Imam who was referring to the regime in Israel. Getting rid of the Zionist regime will be one of the best things that ever happened to the Middle East, for human rights, for Geneva Convention, for the prosecution of war crimes, for the end of undisclosed rogue weapons of mass destruction, for the end of collective punishment, the end of the biggest arms proliferation in the region, the end of Apartheid and tyranny in Palestine, the end of any more violations of UN Security Council resolutions, the end of the last colonial power on earth, and the end of much more. You don't understand what the word "regime" means and no matter how many times you're corrected, you return with Zionist amnesia to keep spreading the same BS.

[media=]

[/media] Edited by Yamato

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You should ask yourself why it is so important that another person's opinions silenced or nullified. I speak of what I genuinely believe. So far I have had no reason these 40 years to doubt those beliefs. The Jews have returned - and are continuing to return - from all places on earth where they were scattered. They have created an "exceedingly great army" and have made the land flower. The fact that one can point to the mechanisms of how this occurred does not mean that it is NOT prophecy fulfilled. God is creator of both natural and super natural. I am not responsible for anyone but myself Yam. I support the people of Israel because I'm directed to by my faith. You seem driven to oppose them. That's not a choice I can make - ever.

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You should ask yourself why it is so important that another person's opinions silenced or nullified. I speak of what I genuinely believe. So far I have had no reason these 40 years to doubt those beliefs. The Jews have returned - and are continuing to return - from all places on earth where they were scattered. They have created an "exceedingly great army" and have made the land flower. The fact that one can point to the mechanisms of how this occurred does not mean that it is NOT prophecy fulfilled. God is creator of both natural and super natural. I am not responsible for anyone but myself Yam. I support the people of Israel because I'm directed to by my faith. You seem driven to oppose them. That's not a choice I can make - ever.

So? Your biblical beliefs collide with your policy beliefs. You effectually put to death the people you claim to support. You should agree with me more than I do, taking your beliefs at face value.

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So? Your biblical beliefs collide with your policy beliefs. You effectually put to death the people you claim to support. You should agree with me more than I do, taking your beliefs at face value.

If you actually believe this then you have a very skewed take on reality. I believe we went to the moon. Did I make that happen Yam? I believe that when I turn on a switch at the wall in my home - voila' ! Light occurs - did I create it? I speak about what I believe and you continually explain to me why I am wrong, hinting I have no real faith and that perhaps I'm just a warmonger. You obviously do not respect scripture about prophecy. Since it makes up over 1/4 of the entire Bible, I'd say it is you who are the misinformed one here. Jesus said that He was foretelling things so that when they happened, people would see them and believe in Him. What/who do you believe in Yam? You are intense on attacking injustice as you see it. Quick to denounce wrong doers and cheer for your perceived under dogs but you never seem the slightest bit interested in what scripture has to say about things that will happen in the very near future. It is a common thing actually. You are hardly alone in such behavior. But when you rely on your own concept of what is right and wrong to the point of scoffing even at God's word then you set yourself up for a great fall.

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and then, you take the typical Christain Zionists stance is the Jews are in the holy land and that's that. End of story.

But Christians like myself, are taking a closer look there are more qualifers involved here. Does God desire his nation, his people to be an apartheid. Shouldn't and wouldn't it be wonderful if this regathering was accompanied by movements of the Holy Spirit and brotherhood... not robbery and human rights violations. Shouldn't the State of Israel glorify God personally with powerful movements of the Holy Spirit. Shouldn't the Holy Spirit be present and shouldn't Israel represent righteousness and brotherhood of all man.

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and then, you take the typical Christain Zionists stance is the Jews are in the holy land and that's that. End of story.

But Christians like myself, are taking a closer look there are more qualifers involved here. Does God desire his nation, his people to be an apartheid. Shouldn't and wouldn't it be wonderful if this regathering was accompanied by movements of the Holy Spirit and brotherhood... not robbery and human rights violations. Shouldn't the State of Israel glorify God personally with powerful movements of the Holy Spirit. Shouldn't the Holy Spirit be present and shouldn't Israel represent righteousness and brotherhood of all man.

Yes, B Jenkins, Israel IS intended to do and be those things. They are a wayward lot, hadn't you read? They've been punished over and over down the centuries and STILL they go their own way in rebellion. Just like the rest of us in this human condition. I do not try to justify the sins of Jews or anyone else - especially not my own. But in living my life by the tenets of faith that I have I cannot be other than supportive of those I believe to be God's chosen. I expect that if I had been born into the slavery of a Palestinian refugee camp I might hate them with a fierceness unless I had found the love of Christ and known His forgiveness. There is not a single thing done in the darkness that will not someday see the light. God is not mocked.

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Posted (edited)

Yes, B Jenkins, Israel IS intended to do and be those things. They are a wayward lot, hadn't you read? They've been punished over and over down the centuries and STILL they go their own way in rebellion. Just like the rest of us in this human condition. I do not try to justify the sins of Jews or anyone else - especially not my own. But in living my life by the tenets of faith that I have I cannot be other than supportive of those I believe to be God's chosen. I expect that if I had been born into the slavery of a Palestinian refugee camp I might hate them with a fierceness unless I had found the love of Christ and known His forgiveness. There is not a single thing done in the darkness that will not someday see the light. God is not mocked.

Oh I see, these people get a free pass in life... cuz da Bible sez so!

In my eyes, we are all equal and I did not delegate God's rights to any given people.

So if a Jew came up to you and robbed you. Or threatened your family. Took your home and land. Cut down your garden. Told you to ride the back of the bus. That's fine... cuz da Bible sez so!

That's Jewcentricism. EDIT: Everyone's rights deserve to be respected. And should be respected. Or one risks corrupting the land with evil! God fulfilled his promises with the Jews twice and twice it fell. Twice they were scattered. And why? Because they filled the land with evil!

Edited by B Jenkins
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Oh I see, these people get a free pass in life... cuz da Bible sez so!

In my eyes, we are all equal and I did not delegate God's rights to any given people.

So if a Jew came up to you and robbed you. Or threatened your family. Took your home and land. Cut down your garden. Told you to ride the back of the bus. That's fine... cuz da Bible sez so!

That's Jewcentricism. EDIT: Everyone's rights deserve to be respected. And should be respected. Or one risks corrupting the land with evil! God fulfilled his promises with the Jews twice and twice it fell. Twice they were scattered. And why? Because they filled the land with evil!

"Cause da Bible sez?" Now you mock me personally BJ? That certainly strengthens your point of view. I've been respectful of you, you could at least return the favor.

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If you actually believe this then you have a very skewed take on reality. I believe we went to the moon. Did I make that happen Yam? I believe that when I turn on a switch at the wall in my home - voila' ! Light occurs - did I create it? I speak about what I believe and you continually explain to me why I am wrong, hinting I have no real faith and that perhaps I'm just a warmonger. You obviously do not respect scripture about prophecy. Since it makes up over 1/4 of the entire Bible, I'd say it is you who are the misinformed one here. Jesus said that He was foretelling things so that when they happened, people would see them and believe in Him. What/who do you believe in Yam? You are intense on attacking injustice as you see it. Quick to denounce wrong doers and cheer for your perceived under dogs but you never seem the slightest bit interested in what scripture has to say about things that will happen in the very near future. It is a common thing actually. You are hardly alone in such behavior. But when you rely on your own concept of what is right and wrong to the point of scoffing even at God's word then you set yourself up for a great fall.

Not believing in your interpretation of prophecy doesn't equate to disrespect on my part. If you don't believe mine, I don't accuse you of disrespect in turn.

You have no policy ideas to avert war, only ideas that practically guarantee it. And a Biblical prophecy belief to boot. My positions will avert war, and minimize death should war come anyway, and perhaps most importantly of all, minimize the suffering of good people in the meantime. I have this position formed on good American values that you claim to support in rhetoric only but fail the test when it comes time to put that rubber on the road. One thing even our modern day Neocon republicans and Wilsonian democrats should agree with me on is that our values as Americans should apply to people outside of our borders. If we really believe in liberty it will be clear in how we respect the liberty of others, otherwise it means nothing. Everyone supports their own liberty. To really believe in liberty you have to support someone else's. You think that exercise should be determined on religious or ethnic lines and that is a tragedy of humankind in the making.

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Not believing in your interpretation of prophecy doesn't equate to disrespect on my part. If you don't believe mine, I don't accuse you of disrespect in turn.

You have no policy ideas to avert war, only ideas that practically guarantee it. And a Biblical prophecy belief to boot. My positions will avert war, and minimize death should war come anyway, and perhaps most importantly of all, minimize the suffering of good people in the meantime. I have this position formed on good American values that you claim to support in rhetoric only but fail the test when it comes time to put that rubber on the road. One thing even our modern day Neocon republicans and Wilsonian democrats should agree with me on is that our values as Americans should apply to people outside of our borders. If we really believe in liberty it will be clear in how we respect the liberty of others, otherwise it means nothing. Everyone supports their own liberty. To really believe in liberty you have to support someone else's. You think that exercise should be determined on religious or ethnic lines and that is a tragedy of humankind in the making.

America has no power to defy the will of God. To take a stance contrary to God's word guarantees you will at the least be disappointed with your outcomes. My problem is that I actually believe the scriptures, I don't just use them as a backdrop to discuss personal desires of how things SHOULD be. I respect your stance and applaud your determination. Ultimately I fully believe you will fail though. You reject completely, God's chosen people. As you get older you will see them continue to survive and maybe even continue to prosper for a while longer. You can let that frustrate you and view it as an evil thing - OR - you can see it as a sign of divine intervention. Either way there is nothing you, I or America can do to stop what will be.

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"Cause da Bible sez?" Now you mock me personally BJ? That certainly strengthens your point of view. I've been respectful of you, you could at least return the favor.

I am mocking the attitude. There is a genuine and true danger if that book justifies "looking the other way" on crimes against humanity. When it silences the cries of victims, silences the cries of refugees, silences the cries of apartheid. If it contributes to the suffering of literally MILLIONS. Because of all these factors contribute to something laboratory cold... sterile... soul-less... something inhumane. It is all about never "looking the other way" when human rights are violated. And realizing the Bible should never be used to justify it either.

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America has no power to defy the will of God. To take a stance contrary to God's word guarantees you will at the least be disappointed with your outcomes. My problem is that I actually believe the scriptures, I don't just use them as a backdrop to discuss personal desires of how things SHOULD be. I respect your stance and applaud your determination. Ultimately I fully believe you will fail though. You reject completely, God's chosen people. As you get older you will see them continue to survive and maybe even continue to prosper for a while longer. You can let that frustrate you and view it as an evil thing - OR - you can see it as a sign of divine intervention. Either way there is nothing you, I or America can do to stop what will be.

There was a time when God used to raise prophets... do you recall them, and then? Think about it. Let it sink in.

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I am mocking the attitude. There is a genuine and true danger if that book justifies "looking the other way" on crimes against humanity. When it silences the cries of victims, silences the cries of refugees, silences the cries of apartheid. If it contributes to the suffering of literally MILLIONS. Because of all these factors contribute to something laboratory cold... sterile... soul-less... something inhumane. It is all about never "looking the other way" when human rights are violated. And realizing the Bible should never be used to justify it either.

"Looking the other way" is what people DO, BJ. But the Bible doesn't justify it. And I don't try to justify the sins of Israelis against Palestinians. I DO try to point out that this story has TWO sides - something uniformly denied by those who support Palestinians. In your world the Palestinians would triumph and Israeli Zionism would be defeated but you (and every other Palestinian supporter on UM) NEVER answer the truth of what that actually means on the ground. It isn't the victory of one political system over another. It would mean the deaths and or subjugation of millions of Israelis. Do you deny this? When every war against the Jews since 1947 has been led by people who openly call for their destruction? But in the case of Israel in the 21 st century I find it extremely disingenuous to say the world looks the other way. The UN has about 1/3 of all the resolutions it ever passed - passed against the tiniest state of all. The entire situation is guided by the hand of God and YOU don't like the way He's taking care of business? I hope He gets the memo.

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America has no power to defy the will of God. To take a stance contrary to God's word guarantees you will at the least be disappointed with your outcomes. My problem is that I actually believe the scriptures, I don't just use them as a backdrop to discuss personal desires of how things SHOULD be. I respect your stance and applaud your determination. Ultimately I fully believe you will fail though. You reject completely, God's chosen people. As you get older you will see them continue to survive and maybe even continue to prosper for a while longer. You can let that frustrate you and view it as an evil thing - OR - you can see it as a sign of divine intervention. Either way there is nothing you, I or America can do to stop what will be.

Again, stop talking about me. Getting personal is getting banned. How many times do we have to learn that?

Last reply about me to defend myself from your tendency to get personal and derail numerous posts: I have nothing to "fail". I have principle and know how to apply it consistently to everyone, foreign and domestic. We've discussed this a hundred times. Don't give me that amnesia again like you haven't heard it already. I can read English in the Bible and see how you reject the message of Jesus Christ, so whatever passage or scripture you think allows you to forsake Christ doesn't jive with the "God" that I was taught about. I don't reject "God's chosen people", who aren't Zionists. Read the New Testament before trying to use "God" as the excuse to disagree with me about foreign policy.

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"Looking the other way" is what people DO, BJ. But the Bible doesn't justify it. And I don't try to justify the sins of Israelis against Palestinians. I DO try to point out that this story has TWO sides - something uniformly denied by those who support Palestinians. In your world the Palestinians would triumph and Israeli Zionism would be defeated but you (and every other Palestinian supporter on UM) NEVER answer the truth of what that actually means on the ground. It isn't the victory of one political system over another. It would mean the deaths and or subjugation of millions of Israelis. Do you deny this? When every war against the Jews since 1947 has been led by people who openly call for their destruction? But in the case of Israel in the 21 st century I find it extremely disingenuous to say the world looks the other way. The UN has about 1/3 of all the resolutions it ever passed - passed against the tiniest state of all. The entire situation is guided by the hand of God and YOU don't like the way He's taking care of business? I hope He gets the memo.

Do you deny millions of Palestinians are being subjugated or that far more Palestinians have been killed by Israel's state terrorism than Jews have been killed by Palestinian terrorists?

The reason I mentioned the prophets is the fact God sent them to recall the Jews back to the "convenant living". And why weren't the Jews living by the convenant? First off, there was mass idolatry and second Biblical Israel was plagued with social ills, court injustices, widespread corruption, mistreatment of the poor and unlanded classes, God was calling the Jews back to true moral and ethical principles a la "convenant living". You know what God basically warned the Jews, if you do not return to this "covenant living", I will scatter you amongst the nations.

And what plagues the State of Israel today is in fact, idolatry (atheism and Jewcentricism - Zionism) and social ills (an apartheid/terrorist state, where Zionists have many more exclusive rights than the non-Jews non-Zionists with fascist relish). Read passages such as found in Jeremiah 7:1-30, Ezekiel 11:15-21, and again Ezekiel 33:11-33. I especially like minor prophet Micah, a book that is a mere 7 chapters long but really says plenty about God and his thoughts about social ills and covenant breakers.

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Do you deny millions of Palestinians are being subjugated or that far more Palestinians have been killed by Israel's state terrorism than Jews have been killed by Palestinian terrorists?

The reason I mentioned the prophets is the fact God sent them to recall the Jews back to the "convenant living". And why weren't the Jews living by the convenant? First off, there was mass idolatry and second Biblical Israel was plagued with social ills, court injustices, widespread corruption, mistreatment of the poor and unlanded classes, God was calling the Jews back to true moral and ethical principles a la "convenant living". You know what God basically warned the Jews, if you do not return to this "covenant living", I will scatter you amongst the nations.

And what plagues the State of Israel today is in fact, idolatry (atheism and Jewcentricism - Zionism) and social ills (an apartheid/terrorist state, where Zionists have many more exclusive rights than the non-Jews non-Zionists with fascist relish). Read passages such as found in Jeremiah 7:1-30, Ezekiel 11:15-21, and again Ezekiel 33:11-33. I especially like minor prophet Micah, a book that is a mere 7 chapters long but really says plenty about God and his thoughts about social ills and covenant breakers.

So in your opinion it is acceptable for the nation of Israel - those approximately 7 million people who live there today - to be dissolved? If they are an illegitimate entity existing on that land that belongs to others then what is your solution? The repetition of allegations against the people/government of Israel does not answer this question BJ. I have acknowledge the "sins" of Israel. I have acknowledged they will be punished for that sin. All I continue to hear is that they are guilty. I respect that opinion but I still do not understand why it is so difficult for someone to just look at and admit that the next logical step in rectifying this issue is for the Palestinians to achieve their goals and they have VERY clearly stated those goals thousands of times, publicly, over the last few decades. So I ask, do you feel that it would be justified for the Palestinians, if they can, to remove Israelis from the disputed land and repossess it according to their desires - which includes killing the Jews? If it seems a provocative question then I cannot help it. They are the ones who use this language. To kill, wipe them off the face of the earth, push them into the sea.... all these and many more statements have been made. Is it justified? This is the reality I'm talking about. The REALITY of a true genocide, if the Palestinians or Muslims in general could have their desires concerning this nation. It is a matter of record. This behavior on the part of Muslims does not justify the theft of land or mistreatment of individual Palestinians. But does Israel's actions justify the death of millions of them?

I don't want to argue. I'm looking for common ground here. Some starting point to a real dialogue.

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Israel is not only doing this. But in regards to nuclear/chemical/biological warfare, they want to be the only ones in the area to control such. Their heads are too big thanks to the USA at their back.

Israel has a far more advanced military and is able to cause a lot more collateral damage to the Palestinians than the Palestinians can do to the Israelites.

and then - You seem to follow the same wavelength that Israel is a poor little bullied country. As outlined at the start of my post, this isn't true. Imagine Israel as the little kid who can bully around everyone else just because of their big brother, except sometimes they also try to get back at their big brother (ie in using Mossad in operations in the US).

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Israel is not only doing this. But in regards to nuclear/chemical/biological warfare, they want to be the only ones in the area to control such. Their heads are too big thanks to the USA at their back.

Israel has a far more advanced military and is able to cause a lot more collateral damage to the Palestinians than the Palestinians can do to the Israelites.

and then - You seem to follow the same wavelength that Israel is a poor little bullied country. As outlined at the start of my post, this isn't true. Imagine Israel as the little kid who can bully around everyone else just because of their big brother, except sometimes they also try to get back at their big brother (ie in using Mossad in operations in the US).

Actually I think I have a decent appreciation for just how much destruction Israel can cause if they need to. They could easily defeat any one of their immediate neighbors I think. They could, with more difficulty defeat several of their neighbors - and may be forced to some day. But military victories will not solve the problem. At some point they have to totally vanquish every country that hates them (an impossibility) or they must find a way to make peace. They understand this and have done for decades. But the Palestinians want all the land Orcseeker. They say as much in Arabic to all who will listen. So my last post sums up their problem. If the world does not consider Israel to be a legitimate country and they keep pushing it to give more and more concessions to the Palestinians then at some point Israel will simply cease to exist. Those people will burn the world down before they allow their children to be killed again and I don't blame them. It's the ultimate in unfairness.

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So in your opinion it is acceptable for the nation of Israel - those approximately 7 million people who live there today - to be dissolved? If they are an illegitimate entity existing on that land that belongs to others then what is your solution? The repetition of allegations against the people/government of Israel does not answer this question BJ. I have acknowledge the "sins" of Israel. I have acknowledged they will be punished for that sin. All I continue to hear is that they are guilty. I respect that opinion but I still do not understand why it is so difficult for someone to just look at and admit that the next logical step in rectifying this issue is for the Palestinians to achieve their goals and they have VERY clearly stated those goals thousands of times, publicly, over the last few decades. So I ask, do you feel that it would be justified for the Palestinians, if they can, to remove Israelis from the disputed land and repossess it according to their desires - which includes killing the Jews? If it seems a provocative question then I cannot help it. They are the ones who use this language. To kill, wipe them off the face of the earth, push them into the sea.... all these and many more statements have been made. Is it justified? This is the reality I'm talking about. The REALITY of a true genocide, if the Palestinians or Muslims in general could have their desires concerning this nation. It is a matter of record. This behavior on the part of Muslims does not justify the theft of land or mistreatment of individual Palestinians. But does Israel's actions justify the death of millions of them?

I don't want to argue. I'm looking for common ground here. Some starting point to a real dialogue.

First off cut out the Islamophobic rhetoric, here is a delightful thought provoking article tackling these very challenges Israelis and Palestinians face:

Israel and Palestine: The Two-State Non Solution

By Rachel Sazanowicz

I had the privilege of traveling throughout the Israeli-Occupied Territory of the West Bank in the summer of 2011. My visit preceded Fatah’s Palestinian bid for statehood presented to the United Nations on September 23, 2011, and it was a major topic of discussion in the community. Conversations revealed many Palestinians’ clear and understandable lack of faith in the international community’s ability to foster the realization of a Palestinian state. What was surprising however, was not the general attitude that a separate Palestinian state was improbable, but that it is actually not preferable. Many Palestinians that I spoke with expressed the opinion that a “one-state solution”, where Palestinians and Israelis live together as equals in a single unified country, is the only place where future generations of Israelis and Palestinians will know true peace.[ii]

After just a short visit to the West Bank it became evident that separation of these two peoples on this tiny land is neither practical nor possible. The current demographic of the West Bank includes three distinct populations. First, there are the refugees that fled from their homes in what is now Israel to the West Bank during and immediately after the 1948 war, many of whom still reside in refugee camps and their descendents. Next, are the original inhabitants of the land who did not flee from their homes following the 1967 war when Israel invaded and confiscated the West Bank (including East Jerusalem), the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, and the Golan Heights and their descendents. Finally, parts of the West Bank are colonized by Israeli settlers from all over the world who have settled in the West Bank with the financial support and encouragement of the Israeli government.

On the other side of the separation barrier, the population of Israel is comprised of both Israeli citizens and a sizable presence of Israeli Arabs. The Jewish Israeli population consists of the descendants of the original Jewish inhabitants of the land under Ottoman rule, the early Zionists and their descendants, and recent Jewish emigres to the country. The Israeli Arabs who hold Israeli citizenship are the Christian and Muslim Palestinians that refused to leave their homes leading to and during the 1948 war following the creation of Israel and their descendants. To understand the significance of these demographics to the current “two-state solution”, one must take into account the conflict’s early history. The Zionist movement called for the creation of the State of Israel as a national Jewish homeland with a Jewish majority,[iii] however the confiscation of additional territory during subsequent wars and colonization has meant that Israel has actually acquired more Christian and Muslim Palestinian inhabitants.[iv] Furthermore, the inability of Israel to expel all of the original inhabitants of what is now the State of Israel has ensured a sizable non-Jewish majority.[v] Additionally, due to the build up of settlements over the past 64 years, a large segment of the Israeli population is currently living in the West Bank often violently clashing with the Palestinian population.[vi] The lives of Palestinians and Israelis have become irreversibly intertwined. As the late Edward Said, a prominent Palestinian activist and former Professor of literature at Columbia University, stated over 10 years ago:

[T]he idea of a state for ‘ourselves’ simply flies in the face of the facts: short of ethnic cleansing or ‘mass transfer,’ as in 1948, there is no way for Israel to get rid of the Palestinians or for Palestinians to wish Israelis away. Neither side has a viable military option against the other, which, I am sorry to say, is why both opted for a peace that so patently tries to accomplish what war couldn’t.[vii]

Ten years later, the inherently unworkable plan Said warned against is still the only “solution” on the table.

Curiously, the so-called Separation Barrier has not done much to separate these two peoples either; the route of the barrier does not follow the internationally recognized legal border of Israel (called the Green Line), but instead 85 percent of the barrier extends into the West Bank, swallowing up more and more Palestinian land.[viii] There are over 518,974 Israeli settlers[ix] living in more than 200 settlements in the West Bank.[x] Since Israelis live on either side of the wall, the stated goal of protecting Israelis from Palestinians is questionable. The Separation Barrier does indeed serve its most obvious purpose: when the Barrier is completed, another 9.5 percent of the West Bank will have been “separated” from its Palestinian owners and annexed into the State of Israel.[xi]

The settlements present the most obvious obstacle to the two-state solution. They are de facto Israeli cities made up of exclusively Jewish populations scattered strategically throughout the West Bank and East Jerusalem. These settlements swallow up 42.8 percent of the land of the West Bank, and in many cases are placed strategically by the Israeli government in order to separate Palestinian’s from each other and from their own land.[xii] The placement of these settlements created what some observers label “Palestinian Bantustans” drawing an analogy to the non-viable “homelands” reserved for the black majority in Apartheid South Africa.[xiii] Indeed, security fences cordon off the Israeli settlements[xiv] and separate roads are built or taken from the Palestinians for use by settlers only.[xv] Checkpoints and/or physical barriers block roads. This has the cumulative effect of not only isolating Palestinian villages from the settlements, but also from other Palestinian villages. These isolated villages of the West Bank are no more legitimate or state-like than the Bantustans were in South Africa. The use of checkpoints and road barriers restrict Palestinian’s freedom of movement while making it possible for the Israeli military to institute curfews and lay siege to Palestinian villages quickly and easily. By strategically routing the Separation Barrier and building the settlements on what was someday meant to become a Palestinian state, Israel has redrawn the map of the West Bank, and ensured that no contiguous, viable Palestinian territory exists for a future state to be built on.

Another glaring inconsistency with the two-state plan is that the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are not contiguous territories but are separated by the State of Israel. While contiguity is not one of the four requirements set forth for statehood by the Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States, the fact that travel is not permitted between the two territories by the State of Israel is a major problem.[xvi] After the capture of the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip during the war of 1967, the Israeli Military declared the territories to be “closed military areas” and free passage between them was forbidden.[xvii] The severity of the restrictions on freedom of movement between the three areas has varied over the years but in 1991, Israel revoked all general entry and exit permits and instituted a policy that required special permits for travel between East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.[xviii] In practice this means than anyone holding a Palestinian territory ID card (including American citizens with current American passports) are not allowed entry into Israel without a special permit.[xix] This makes it almost impossible for Palestinians living in the West Bank to travel to the Gaza Strip. Currently, Palestinians residing in Israel and holding an Israeli passport along with other foreign passport holders are generally allowed entry into the West Bank and East Jerusalem. This however, is not the case with the Gaza Strip, which is effectively under siege. Since the application for statehood was a unilateral move by the Palestinians that is not supported by Israel, there is every indication that the repressive permit system will remain in place regardless of whether the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are accepted by the United Nations as a unified state under one name. While contiguity of territory may not be a per se requirement of statehood, it is hard to imagine a state where, in order to travel within that state, one’s citizens are at the mercy of a foreign government’s permit system.

Is this the makings of a state? The answer is an unequivocal no. The Palestinian quest for justice is a quest for freedom – not a quest for de jure state in law but not in practice. Life for Palestinians living under Israeli occupation is marked by the constant threat of arbitrary arrest and detention, torture, extra-judicial killings, house demolitions, confiscation of land, damage and/or destruction of mosques, homes, olive trees, and other property, and physical assault and death.[xx] As the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, known as B’Tselem, states on their website:

Israel created in the Occupied Territories a regime of separation and discrimination, with two separate systems of law in the same territory. One system, for the settlers, de facto annexes the settlements to Israel and grants settlers the rights of citizens of a democratic state. The other is a system of military law that systematically deprives Palestinian of their rights and denies them the ability to have any real effect on shaping the policy regarding the land space in which they live and with respect to their rights. These separate systems reinforce a regime in which rights depend on the national identity of the individual.[xxi]

ARTICLE CONT. -> http://intlawsocietydigest.commons.gc.cuny.edu/2012/10/14/israel-and-palestine-the-two-state-non-solution/

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If an earnest statement of my opinion on this matter is considered by you to be rhetoric to be dismissed out of hand then the discussion is over. The Jews WILL possess the land. The Palestinians COULD have peace but they refuse to. And this situation WILL lead to a great war that eventually encompasses the whole world. Sounds like humans being humans to me.

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Posted (edited)

If an earnest statement of my opinion on this matter is considered by you to be rhetoric to be dismissed out of hand then the discussion is over. The Jews WILL possess the land. The Palestinians COULD have peace but they refuse to. And this situation WILL lead to a great war that eventually encompasses the whole world. Sounds like humans being humans to me.

No, the Palestinians never refused peace, they KNOW better than to bend to any Israeli provisions for peace (I've posted this before):

MYTH: The Palestinians have rejected many "Generous" Peace offers.

This is a commonly used myth, in which the Palestinians are portrayed as a violent people, with no desire for peace. Why wouldn't the Palestinians want peace? They are under a brutal occupation, their homes are destroyed, they have no economy, and they are subject to continuous conflict. The Palestinians have suffered much more than the Israelis in this decades long conflict, and they have much more to gain from peace.

Supporters of Israel often point to the Palestinian rejection of the 2000 Camp David peace conference as a validation of this myth. The Israeli offer for peace is often portrayed as generous, and that Palestinians rejected it because they do not want peace. This is entirely false. The peace offer was far from generous. It would not constitute a viable Palestinian state. These are some issues with the so called "generous" offer.

Israel would have full sovereignty of Jerusalem

Israel would maintain fortified settlements, and Israeli only roads in the occupied west bank

Palestinians would have no control of their airspace.

Palestinians would have control of only 73% of the occupied west bank

Israel would maintain control of all borders

The northern and southern parts of the west bank would be separated, and the road connection could be closed by Israel at its own discretion

Palestine would have limited control of water resources

Israel would place early warning systems within Palestinian territory

Israel reserved the right to conduct military operations within the Palestinian state

The Palestinian state would be entirely demilitarized

Palestinian refugees would have no right of return

As is evident, this offer was far from "generous". It would simply constitute a situation that is very similar to what is happening now, except it would be Internationally be recognized as a state. Palestinians would have to entirely relinquish Jerusalem as their capital. They would have no way of defending themselves from Israeli incursions, no control over their borders, airspace, or water. This, in no way constitutes a sovereign, viable, free, Palestinian state.

The myth that Palestinians reject peace is categorically false. Palestinians desire peace, however, they will not give up their rights, and territories, which are confirmed under International law. If anything, Israel has no desire for peace.

http://www.peaceandp...com/nopeacemyth

STATISTICS (according to United Nations Relief And Works Agency For Palestine Refugees In The Near East)

Field of operations - Official camps - Registered refugees - Total registered persons

Jordan - 10 - 2,034,641 - 2,110,114

Lebanon - 15 - 441,543 - 474,053

Syria - 9 - 499,189 - 528,711

West Bank - 19 - 741,409 - 895,703

Gaza Strip - 8 - 1,203,135 - 1,263,312

Agency Total - 61 - 4,919,917 - 5,271,893

http://www.unrwa.org...late.php?id=253

Over 1 million Palestinian refugees between Lebanon and Syria alone, combined with over 2 million refugees in Jordan, and another 2 million refugees between Gaza Strip and the West Bank alone. Israel denies them the right of return. These people had made their homes in Palestine for centuries. They LOST everything!

Edited by B Jenkins
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