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Liquid Gardens

Atheism - any contradictions or 'problems'?

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I think both groups are somewhat idiotic at times both arguing over the same concept.

Theists realize that something created everything,

Atheists realize that something created everything.

Once you break it down simply you can just sit back and laugh.

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I think both groups are somewhat idiotic at times both arguing over the same concept.

Theists realize that something created everything,

Atheists realize that something created everything.

Once you break it down simply you can just sit back and laugh.

I would think you would have read what the person immediately before you posted before you post something like that, but obviously not.

There is no need to say that anyone "created" anything. Space-time is abuzz with virtual random creation all the time.

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3) The basic principles of Atheism is in fact more faith based than a lot of people care to admit. Yes we can measure entropy and estimate a loose time scale of our known universe after the "big bang" but what of before? Sadly enough we can never have actual empirical proof (unless we invent time travel!)

This is called cosmology, not atheism.
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I would think you would have read what the person immediately before you posted before you post something like that, but obviously not.

There is no need to say that anyone "created" anything. Space-time is abuzz with virtual random creation all the time.

I think you completely missed my point. They both basically believe the same thing. Meaning the same contradictions and problems will apply.

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I think you completely missed my point. They both basically believe the same thing. Meaning the same contradictions and problems will apply.

I think not and it's going to take more than your just saying so to be persuasive.

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Ask yourself what is an atheist then ask yourself what is a theist. In the broadest sense of the word. Compare the two. Work from there.

Here is a hint.

The only difference between an atheist and a theist is the belief in deities and gods.

The rest of what you think are differences between the two can fall on both sides of the fence.

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On the face of it, atheists seem to hold the logical high ground by saying "We can't see God, therefore he doesn't exist".

But it becomes far less cut and dried when we throw Jesus into the equation..;)

The whole population of Israel and the Roman army garrison saw him for 3 long years doing miracles, and heard him say-"I'm not from this world....I only say what God tells me to say...it's God's power working through me that does the miracles.."

So the bottom line is- What grounds do atheists have for not believing him?

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On the face of it, atheists seem to hold the logical high ground by saying "We can't see God, therefore he doesn't exist".

But it becomes far less cut and dried when we throw Jesus into the equation.. ;)

The whole population of Israel and the Roman army garrison saw him for 3 long years doing miracles, and heard him say-"I'm not from this world....I only say what God tells me to say...it's God's power working through me that does the miracles.."

So the bottom line is- What grounds do atheists have for not believing him?

This is all very fascinating, except we have no record of all this from credible authors, only from believers at least half an century later.

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I think both groups are somewhat idiotic at times both arguing over the same concept.

Theists realize that something created everything,

Atheists realize that something created everything.

Once you break it down simply you can just sit back and laugh.

That is a misrepresentation of atheism. Atheists do not "realize" anything of that sort; they simply do not use phantastical mythical scripts to explain the unknown.

By the way the religionists` claim that their respective gods must exist because everything needs a creator begs to question: So who created their god? ........and back to square zero. Duh.

Some of us figured out that particular non-starter in first grade.

Edited by Zaphod222

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On the face of it, atheists seem to hold the logical high ground by saying "We can't see God, therefore he doesn't exist".

But it becomes far less cut and dried when we throw Jesus into the equation.. ;)

The whole population of Israel and the Roman army garrison saw him for 3 long years doing miracles, and heard him say-"I'm not from this world....I only say what God tells me to say...it's God's power working through me that does the miracles.."

Yeah well.... but by that standard Sai Baba is also a god, since he routinely does miracles. Heck, I see miracles in every stage show in Las Vegas. Good grief, how gullible can you be.

So the bottom line is- What grounds do atheists have for not believing him?

Simply that religious scripts and historical evidence are not the same. Are you saying you are unaware of the difference?

Edited by Zaphod222

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On the face of it, atheists seem to hold the logical high ground by saying "We can't see God, therefore he doesn't exist".

But it becomes far less cut and dried when we throw Jesus into the equation.. ;)

The whole population of Israel and the Roman army garrison saw him for 3 long years doing miracles, and heard him say-"I'm not from this world....I only say what God tells me to say...it's God's power working through me that does the miracles.."

So the bottom line is- What grounds do atheists have for not believing him?

You mean that a 2000 year old book claims that "the whole population of Israel and the Roman army garrison" saw Jesus do his thing. That isn't proof that it happened, and the construction and choreography of the writing of the bible has been pretty well established, especially where a lot of the apostles got their information from (ie, each other).

If you look at the story of Christ critically - the same way you should look at any claim - you see that there simply is no reason to believe it is anything other than that - a story.

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The whole population of Israel and the Roman army garrison saw him for 3 long years doing miracles, and heard him say-"I'm not from this world....I only say what God tells me to say...it's God's power working through me that does the miracles.."

So the bottom line is- What grounds do atheists have for not believing him?

And the entire population of earth was under attack from aliens on the 4th of July. Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum risked their lives to save us.
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"Atheism - any contradictions or 'problems'?"

Nope.

Easiest answer ever.

Ha, agreed. The main difference is that atheists have no denominations or specific beliefs typically underneath the statement 'there is no god' whereas theists obviously do; as someone noted simple theism does not contain inherent contradictions either.

The only thing I can think of is the fact that atheism is backed by no further proof or evidence than Christianity or most other religious ideas...

Hmmm, I'm not so sure that atheism is the sort of thing that needs further proof or evidence, to me it's the default. It doesn't seem to correct to me to say 'the idea that Santa Claus does not exist is backed by no further proof or evidence than the idea that he does'.

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Crikey said- The whole population of Israel and the Roman army garrison saw him for 3 long years doing miracles, and heard him say-"I'm not from this world....I only say what God tells me to say...it's God's power working through me that does the miracles.."

This is all very fascinating, except we have no record of all this from credible authors, only from believers at least half an century later.

So what? Likewise Mohammed never wrote a word of the Koran, and Buddha never wrote a word of Buddhist scriptures, their followers did, so if you discount the gospel-writers you'd have to discount them too!

Heck, even Elvis never wrote a book about himself but his family, friends and associates did!

Incidentally even the Koran (written 600 yrs AD) dare not deny Jesus existed and that he was something special..:)

[Koran 2.253] "We have made some of these apostles to excel the others...... We gave clear miracles to Isa [Jesus] son of Marium [Mary], and strengthened him with the holy spirit.."

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..Sai Baba is also a god, since he routinely does miracles. Heck, I see miracles in every stage show in Las Vegas. Good grief, how gullible can you be.

..religious scripts and historical evidence are not the same. Are you saying you are unaware of the difference?

1- The James Randi skeptic organisation has had a one-million dollar prize on offer for many years to anybody who can demonstrate paranormal powers, so why haven't Sai Baba, David Blaine, Criss Angel, David Copperfield or any other magician claimed it?

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

2- Over a period of thousands of years, humans had close encounters with "gods" and wrote a total of 66 books about them.

Then somebody said "Hey let's bind them all into one volume and call it the Bible!"

The word "Bible" comes from the Greek tà biblía, (the books), and there you have it, 66 books simply describing close encounters of assorted kinds, whether or not people want to slap the word "religious" on them..:)

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You mean that a 2000 year old book claims that "the whole population of Israel and the Roman army garrison" saw Jesus do his thing. That isn't proof that it happened...

But what possible motive would anybody have for sitting down and "inventing" Jesus and Christianity?

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But what possible motive would anybody have for sitting down and "inventing" Jesus and Christianity?

Power, an insatiable lust for power, riches and glory.

Ultimately, "the psychopath must have what he wants, no matter what the cost to those in his way."

Edited by HavocWing

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Power, an insatiable lust for power, riches and glory.

I suppose those things are possible, but usually myths get started as stories that are embellished from teller to teller.

It is informative that the genuine Pauline epistles seem to have no knowledge of the Jesus story as found in the Gospels. Since the Pauline epistles date from 50 - 60 CE, they are the earliest extant Christian writings, and have a Jesus who was betrayed and died in mythical, not historical, and certainly not recent, times. The Gospels, dating from half a century later, have the developed myth, although in several versions (compare for example the nativity stories in Matthew and Luke, which share no detail and seem to be completely different stories about the same figures).

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Crikey asked- But what possible motive would anybody have for sitting down and "inventing" Jesus and Christianity?

Power, an insatiable lust for power, riches and glory.

Ultimately, "the psychopath must have what he wants, no matter what the cost to those in his way."

If that's so, why did the early Christians write this?-

"..we do not peddle the word of God for profit"- 2 Cor 2:17

"Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care.. not lording it over those entrusted to you" -1 Peter 5:2-3

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The Gospels, dating from half a century later, have the developed myth, although in several versions (compare for example the nativity stories in Matthew and Luke, which share no detail and seem to be completely different stories about the same figures).

I don't understand! One minute atheists are telling us that the Bible has been edited, censored and tidied up over the centuries to make it look good, then the next minute they're telling us it's still full of contradictions!

Wish they make up their minds and tell us once and for all whether it's been prettied up or hasn't it?..;)

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I don't understand! One minute atheists are telling us that the Bible has been edited, censored and tidied up over the centuries to make it look good, then the next minute they're telling us it's still full of contradictions!

Wish they make up their minds and tell us once and for all whether it's been prettied up or hasn't it?..

Or it has been edited and it was a half baked job?

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Crikey asked- But what possible motive would anybody have for sitting down and "inventing" Jesus and Christianity?

If that's so, why did the early Christians write this?-

"..we do not peddle the word of God for profit"- 2 Cor 2:17

"Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care.. not lording it over those entrusted to you" -1 Peter 5:2-3

They lied.

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They lied.

I think you are too harsh; the words were probably sincere, but sincerity doesn't really prove much. A lot of people think or at least say that religions exist to keep people in submission. To be sure that does sometimes happen, but mostly religions serve very human needs.

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The only contridiction is an internal one.. sometimes an athiest may break down and feel the urge to pray.. or something may happen that is miraculous, because of thier belief system they may need to ignore it and pretend it didnt happen. When listening to others accounts of god they wont be able to listen unbiasedly because god cannot exist for them..

In its definition there is no contridiction.. but neither would there be in the statement "there is a god."

I agree totally. I was referring to formal logic. You see many ( not all) atheists will argue their buts off about why belief in the spiritual is illogical all the while makeing gross formal logical fallacies. A contradiction if I ever saw one. Not that our thiest friends are any different by the way.

Edited by Seeker79
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They [the Bible writers] lied.

Prove it..:)

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