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Liquid Gardens

Atheism - any contradictions or 'problems'?

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Why don't you think this is fab and great?-

"Love God, love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"- Jesus of Nazareth (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25: 37-40)

Nothing wrong with that necessarily (not sure about 'Love God') but according to many believers, that is not all that 'Jesus' is about, it all depends on what we're going to choose and rank from the Bible. If a lot more songs like 'Revolution 9' were created by the Beatles, I don't think you'd accept someone just responding to the assertion that the Beatles weren't that great with, 'what part of 'Strawberry Fields Forever' and 'A Day in the Life' is not fab and good?'. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I think Jesus had a lot of Revolution 9s (although the OT is littered with them), but the bar for him is far higher than it is for sinful mortals like the Beatles.

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Actually I've lost track of what this thread is supposed to be about, I've read the opening post and it's title (below) but I'm still none the wiser. Are atheists saying they've got problems? And what's the 'counterpart' bit mean exactly?

Atheism - any contradictions or 'problems'?

Does atheism have a counterpart similar to the 'problem of evil'?

Edited by Crikey

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Actually I've lost track of what this thread is supposed to be about, I've read the opening post and it's title (below) but I'm still none the wiser. Are atheists saying they've got problems? And what's the 'counterpart' bit mean exactly?

I think the question in the OP was answered a while ago, atheism doesn't have potentially inherent contradictions or 'problems' like specific religions sometimes do, such as represented by the problem of evil. I mainly wanted to give theists a chance to bash whatever problems they see in atheism, but I was comparing apples and oranges with my original question somewhat as 'atheism' is very general whereas the problem of evil relates to a specific conception of God.

I guess though I don't know if theists think that atheism is not a good answer all on its own because of flaws in the concept, or if they just believe that theism is a better answer. If you are a theist, do you understand from a logical and rational standpoint (not a religious standpoint) why people are atheists, or are you left scratching your head why so many people can't see the obvious fact that God exists or can't see whatever flaws are in atheism as an explanation? I think I understand to some extent how some theists view things but I do think some of their beliefs have issues from a logic and rationality standpoint. Not the least of which is the paucity of direct evidence for any god, let alone for any specific conception of it.

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Why don't you think this is fab and great?-

"Love God,

Love someone I've never met and who has reportedly killed hundreds of thousands of people?

love one another,

Love the child abuser across the street? I'll pass on this one too.

feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute,

I would love free food, free housing, and free clothes if they were practical.

tend the sick,

And bill them later?

visit the prisoners,

"So, how's death row? You say you didn't mean to kill your wife and the guy she was with? That sucks. Good luck."

look after the poor"

Because they can't take care of themselves? They sound like animals.

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If you're going to start disbelieving history books like the Bible, you'd better burn all other books too, and close down libraries.. :)

Newsflash for you: The Bible is not a history book.

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For the record Koran 2:136 names several prophets including Jesus and says they're all equal in rank- "

we do not make anydistinction between any of them",

Yet Koran 2:253 says some prophets ARE more equal than others-

The Koran is full of contradictions, just like the Bible.

As for Buddhism, the inconstencies come thick and fast, for example Buddha even tells us not to listen to him-

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"

Buddha

Where do you see the contradiction?

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No. False logic. Believing in an irrational tale is not the same as not believing in an irrational tale.

By your logic, somebody who believes that he is constantly followed by an invisible giant rabbit and Elvis lives in his attic is to be taken just as serious as all the people who do not believe they are followed by invisitable giant rabbits and Elvis lives in their attic.

Really?

No banana. Try again.

You are right but you are missing out on the illogical view of your thinking. Have you ever played madlibs? This is why I broke it down to math because the definitions of the words are pointless when it comes to the word God.

Both sides of the board who get angry are trying to prove their case through negation.

I can name a rock God and show you that is proof. You tell me that isn't God and show me that same exact thing is proof.

Problem is nobody stops and asks the question why? Seems like a case of illogical thinking.

Negation will never work to prove your case.

I am an atheist because I do not believe in deities but I can be considered a theist because I believe in a creator because a creator is one part of the definition that somebody said at one point in time. (really Ignostic when I'm feeling playful if you read posts earlier on)

The term is too vague and we don't know what it actually means so you can't argue about it on either side.

Logic cannot come from assumptions. This is why both sides are a belief and cannot be said as factual.

Your trying to prove something with something that doesn't even relate to point in question. In that situation(The one one you stated) know the variables and what parts are true and what are not. That is the basis of logic and the conclusion you drew from it was a logical one.

The debate about atheism and theism is not based on facts but opinions on what something can be called. . Which I state again......... both sides are basically the same when you compare the two of them side by side.

So basically you proved to me is that an apple isn't an orange, when the thing we are discussing is about if the orange actually exists. Your argument doesn't fit in the context of what I am even saying.

Since neither side can prove they what they believe is actually true(Meaning they don't actually know), that is the only point of reference to say that they are alike because that is the only thing I can prove.

All I see from you in your writing is that you don't like being compared to and found the same as a theist and too scared to do the math to see it. That is literally all you shown.

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But what possible motive would anybody have for sitting down and "inventing" Jesus and Christianity?

What reason does someone have to start Islam or even Raelism or Mormonism? It's called belief and the tide of time.

Look how much Islam has grown despite Christianity being as all powerful as it is, you'd think we'd have been satisfied with Jesus but alas...

Man will continue to conflate myths and legends because we need something to keel us over 'til we die. "A bogus theory is better than no theory at all" - Most Of Mankind.

P.S, just because the bible says Jesus performs miracles isn't grounds for believing, the same goes for all holy texts. You might say "Well it contains nice things like love and compassion so how could it be for manipulation?" but last I checked, the word 'Deceit' does exist, as does 'manipulation'. I'm not saying it was used for manipulation but it's plausible, I mean politicians lie in their manifesto's all the time.Trusting someone based solely on their established goal (in god's case love) may make you less aware of their shortcomings.

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...atheism doesn't have potentially inherent contradictions or 'problems' like specific religions sometimes do, such as represented by the problem of evil.

I think I understand to some extent how some theists view things but I do think some of their beliefs have issues from a logic and rationality standpoint. Not the least of which is the paucity of direct evidence for any god, let alone for any specific conception of it.

1- Some atheists say Jesus never existed, yet some say he did, plus there are many shades of atheist opinions in between, so atheism itself is divided and contradictory.

Incidentally, you like to keep throwing out the word "evil", what exactly are you referring to? I personally don't know of any "evil" Christians..

2- Atheists say there's no evidence of a God, perhaps they think the universe just decided to create itself!

Christianity WORKS just like it says on the tin which is why most Christians are cool, calm, unflappable, fearless and good humoured, they have The Power.. :)

".. our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power.." (1 Thess 1:5)

"..that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured" (Col 4:12)

"My Christian faith is my backbone"- (said by Bear Grylls on TV and on his website)

b-grrylls.gif

Edited by Crikey

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2- Atheists say there's no evidence of a God, perhaps they think the universe just decided to create itself!

So does science, that is why creationism was rejected. Perhaps you should think before you respond?

*snip*

Edited by Paranoid Android
Removed inflammatory comment

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Crikey quoted Jesus- "Love God, love one another.."

[/i]

Love someone I've never met and who has reportedly killed hundreds of thousands of people?

Love the child abuser across the street? I'll pass on this one too.....

1- I don't think God ever wiped out nasty tribes unless they asked for it, to remove them from the human gene pool..:)

2- Nothing wrong with trying to make child abusers see the error of their ways, but if they won't listen we shouldn't waste any more time on them-

Jesus said:-"If any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them" (Mark 6:11)

Jesus said:- " if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea" (Matt 18:6)

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Newsflash for you: The Bible is not a history book.

Prove it..:)

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Crikey said- As for Buddhism, the inconstencies come thick and fast, for example Buddha even tells us not to listen to him-

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"

Buddha

Where do you see the contradiction?

Buddha is saying we shouldn't believe anything he says unless we agree with it.

Okay, I think most of what he said is satanic, so I reject Buddhism..:)

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Buddha is saying we shouldn't believe anything he says unless we agree with it.

Okay, I think most of what he said is satanic, so I reject Buddhism.. :)

/facepalm

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Man will continue to conflate myths and legends...

But Jesus was solid flesh and blood, not a created myth..:)

For a start his arrival was foretold centuries before just as he said, - "All things about me in the law of Moses,the Prophets and the Psalms,must be fulfilled" (Luke 24:44)

And when he arrived he didn't skulk in some underground hideout, he travelled all over Israel for 3 long years in front of the people and the occupying Roman Army, that's a lot of eyewitnesses - "I've spoken openly to the world..I said nothing in secret" (John 18:20)

And "Large crowds from Galilee, the Ten Cities, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him" (Matt 4:25)

And he had audiences of over 4000 and 5000 at two meetings alone (Matt 15:32, Matt 14:13)

He said straight out he was the Messiah, the Christ, the Superprophet and the Son of God (John 4:26, Matt 16:17,Mark 14:62)

Today 2 billion people around the world follow Jesus ,making Christianity by far the biggest religion.

Jesus said - "I've beaten the world" (John 16:33)

Nice slice of pie anyone?..:)

rel-pie-1.gif

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And when he arrived he didn't skulk in some underground hideout, he travelled all over Israel for 3 long years in front of the people and the occupying Roman Army, that's a lot of eyewitnesses - "I've spoken openly to the world..I said nothing in secret" (John 18:20)

And "Large crowds from Galilee, the Ten Cities, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him" (Matt 4:25)

And he had audiences of over 4000 and 5000 at two meetings alone (Matt 15:32, Matt 14:13)

Because 2 people said so?
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Because 2 people said so?

In the years following Jesus's execution, 9 people (including the disciples) wrote a total of 27 books (The New Testament) about him, and NOBODY ever came forward to say something like " Hey that never happened! I was alive in Israel at the time but I never heard of this Jesus!"

In other words Jesus was TOO BIG to be a myth, it'd be like somebody nowadays trying to say Elvis never existed, right Elv?

"Uh-huh"..

elvis-lip.jpg

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[

Edited by Frank Merton

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Okay, I think most of what he said is satanic, so I reject Buddhism.. :)

That's a blessing. Edited by Frank Merton

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/facepalm

But what was the story behind the vid, maybe she came home and found it full of druggies, satanists and perverts and was just throwing them out to protect her daughter like any good Christian mom would?

Even Buddhists lose their kool sometimes..;)

Buddhists attack police during street riots, Far East-

budd-riots.jpg

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In the years following Jesus's execution, 9 people (including the disciples) wrote a total of 27 books (The New Testament) about him, and NOBODY ever came forward to say something like " Hey that never happened! I was alive in Israel at the time but I never heard of this Jesus!"

Very few of the disciples actually wrote the books they were credited with, and the earliest book, the gospel of mark was written decades after the execution.

You keep beating on about everyone saw him when in fact these claims only came from a handful of authors.

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But what was the story behind the vid, maybe she came home and found it full of druggies, satanists and perverts and was just throwing them out to protect her daughter like any good Christian mom would?

Trading spouses is/was a TV show in which two families swap wives or husbands. She swapped with a non-christian family. Edited by Rlyeh

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Buddha is saying we shouldn't believe anything he says unless we agree with it.

Okay, I think most of what he said is satanic, so I reject Buddhism..

So, in your view, when Jesus warned his audience in Matthew 7: 15-16 to beware of false prophets, an issue which troubled the people of Kalama, and Jesus proposed, parallel with the Buddha, "By their fruits you shall know them.," Jesus was promoting a Satanic doctrine?

And your purpose in posting in this thread is to help atheists manage their contradictions?

OK, then.

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Very few of the disciples actually wrote the books they were credited with, and the earliest book, the gospel of mark was written decades after the execution.

You keep beating on about everyone saw him when in fact these claims only came from a handful of authors.

Much the same thing applies to all of the ancient religions. If you read the very earliest Buddhist writings, you find the basic teaching and the stories of the palatial upbringing and the Enlightenment and a few incidents from years of mendicant preaching. As time passes miracles and wonders appear and the crowds get larger and larger. This is perfectly natural myth development, and is interesting in the detail of what sorts of myths develop to tell you what sort of movement it was, but that they are mostly myths has to be kept in mind.

So for example you have the story that at his Enlightenment Brahma (the main god of the Hindu pantheon) approached the new Buddha to persuade him to remain on earth a natural lifetime and not enter blessed Nirvana immediately. The Buddha was persuaded to do this, but he explained to Brahma that although he would thereby found a great religious movement and that many would be helped, in the end it would be destroyed -- that all things in the end are.

What to say -- this of course never happened as history -- but it conveys the general way Buddhists view their own religion so well. It is not a religion out to conquer the world; it knows in the end what the world is and what will become of it.

I think we have to approach the Christian myths similarly -- with respect and to see what they tell us about Christianity, but those who insist that they are real events that happened in real time are sadly deluded.

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Very few of the disciples actually wrote the books they were credited with, and the earliest book, the gospel of mark was written decades after the execution.

So what? Jesus had such a massive impact on Israel that he became a household name and the whole country was still buzzing and talking about him for years after his death.

then somebody said "Hey let's write it all down for history!", and that's how the New Testament came to us from - "eyewitnesses and ministers of the word" (Luke 1:2)

Same with Elvis, many of the books about him were written by people who either knew him, or interviewed people who did know him (family, friends, musicians, fans etc).. :)

elvis-books-gif_zpsdb248cfa.gif

Edited by Crikey

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