My personal Alien abduction story.

[all16universes]

We're arguing two different things here.

What I'm saying is that your reality, and my reality don't become "real" for us until we experience it on some level. The radio waves don't become "real" for astronomers until they are measured. This doesn't mean that an independent stand alone reality can't exist; it just means that it can't exist until you measure it or perceive it.

You are saying that a stand alone reality exists, independent of you. Sure, this is definitely the way it appears to be. I won't deny that this is most likely the case. But it's important to realize that it's not something we can prove.

Assume that there is an independent reality. Our perception of it probably isn't complete because we only have 5 senses. The reality we are familiar with is built on our ability to perceive it. But if it's independent then there's no reason to believe that we just so happened to have the right number of senses to fully perceive reality. We're designed by nature to collect information needed to survive. We assume that reality is completely as we perceive it to be, but we can't know this either.

A verifiable claim requires you to measure, observe and perceive something. This requires a conscious mind to experience it. It's not real until you can measure it. You don't believe that the Easter bunny is real because you haven't experienced it with your senses. Again, your perceived reality is built around your experiences. This supports what I'm saying.

[ufoscan]

Again, let's get back to the main argument, which is the notion that, according to you, it's OK to pick and choose which parts of our dreams might be real. So we might have a year's worth of nonsensical dreams that we all know are not real, but whenever there is a character in a dream that says "hey I'm an alien from outer space", then we should single this out and say "that part is real because it said it's aliens".

So, let's suppose, in another part of your dream, there's the cute girl next door saying she wants to marry you. But in real life she won't give you the time of day. Are you going to conclude that in fact her "spirit self" really does want to marry you because she said so in the dream ? So you're now going to start annoying her, insisting that "you know" she wants to marry you because you had a dream about it ? It's very likely she'll set you straight pretty fast about what's real between your dream and the reality.

My point here is that with the dream about the girl, the reality of the real person is going to break the illusion. But with the alien, it's not likely that the one in your dream is going to ring your doorbell the next day. So you're then free to continue with the wishful thinking that this was a real alien you met last night while you were asleep... Reality won't be able to come and set you straight.

This is where, yeah, people do have to make a clear distinction between our real life existence and the fantasies that our brain conjures up during sleep !!!

[all16universes]

You're misunderstanding what I've said.

Everyone associates "real" with physical reality. But this is only an assumption. If you really think about it, "real" is something you experience. It requires consciousness. Something is "real" to us only if we experience it with our conscious mind. I can think about going somewhere but it's not real until I actually experience it.

Your conscious mind operates in physical reality so you must physically experience something before your conscious mind believes something is real. This is in agreement with what everyone has said.

Now we consider the dream world. Dreams occur in an entirely different "space" than physical reality. We experience the dream world with our subconscious mind. These experiences are stored as dreams. The point I'm makIng is that this is an entirely separate "reality" with an entirely separate set of rules. What happens in one "reality" has no implications on the other (most likely). Everyone seems to agree with this. So a dream doesn't imply anything at all in physical reality, just as an experience in physical reality doesn't imply anything at all in the dream world. They are completely separate besides the fact that some part of our consciousness experiences each "space".

Obviously your conscious mind will dismiss dreams as not being "real" because they occurred in a "space" that has no implications on the "space" your conscious mind experiences. Because of this, we consciously assume dreams are just in our head and made up, but this cannot actually be proven right or wrong. Brain activity while you sleep only implies your brain is processing information, not that it is generating dreams.

The people experiencing alien abductions are consciously experiencing a "space" intended for your subconscious mind. It feels physically real because you experienced it with your conscious mind. We know it isn't physically real because when we wake up nothing has changed. But this doesn't mean the experience wasn't real at all. It was real in the realm you experience with your subconscious mind.

[DONTEATUS]

And the mind is quite the master at deception !

[ufoscan]

Everyone associates "real" with physical reality.

Unfortunately, not "everyone" !

But this is only an assumption.

Well, there you go again ! No it's not an assumption because if a car runs over someone and kills him, that's not an assumption. But in the dream state no car will ever kill anyone.

If you really think about it, "real" is something you experience. It requires consciousness. Something is "real" to us only if we experience it with our conscious mind.

Not quite. Even if you're not there, the world still is there for everybody else. Of course, we experience it via our senses, but there is no discrepancy between what I experience and anybody else around me.

I can think about going somewhere but it's not real until I actually experience it.

Well, there lies the difference between imagination and reality.

Now we consider the dream world. Dreams occur in an entirely different "space" than physical reality.

That "space" is called "the brain"

The point I'm making is that this is an entirely separate "reality" with an entirely separate set of rules.

I don't think so. Dreams are simply the brain imagining things while the body sleeps. It's not a reality, it's just the faculty of imagination playing out.

What happens in one "reality" has no implications on the other (most likely).

One thing that does happen in dreams is that sometimes daytime events are played out with some distortions. In other words, the brain does use conscious memories and ideas to extrapolate upon.

Because of this, we consciously assume dreams are just in our head and made up, but this cannot actually be proven right or wrong. Brain activity while you sleep only implies your brain is processing information, not that it is generating dreams.

Dreams are a process very similar to imagination. They are processes of the brain. Dreams mostly borrow from conscious experiences of individuals and that pretty much demonstrates that it is our own memories generating those dreams and not some external source.

The people experiencing alien abductions are consciously experiencing a "space" intended for your subconscious mind. It feels physically real because you experienced it with your conscious mind. We know it isn't physically real because when we wake up nothing has changed. But this doesn't mean the experience wasn't real at all. It was real in the realm you experience with your subconscious mind.

I still find no indication that claimed alien abductions have a basis in fact. When they are not outright hoaxes, they seem to be descriptions of dreams that are assumed to be real mainly due to wishful thinking or misunderstanding of the dream processes, semi-conscious states and sleep paralysis.

[Scandal]

Buy a gun.

[all16universes]

Buy a gun.

Haha

[all16universes]

"Your conscious mind operates in physical reality so you must physically experience something before your conscious mind believes something is real. "

You've confirmed this statement, and it seems that you agree with it.

"Well, there you go again !  No it's not an assumption because if a car runs over someone and kills him, that's not an assumption.  But in the dream state no car will ever kill anyone."

You've assumed that the rules of the dream world must follow the rules of physical reality. Clearly they are different and separate. Based on observation and experience, one of the rules in the dream world is that you can't die. As you pointed out, the dream world can also mimic physical reality. That's another rule. Hmmm, the dream world is also susceptible to thought. There are all these rules that differ between physical reality and the dream world. It doesn't mean that one is anymore real than the other. They are different and separate. That's it. The ability to separate independent "things" is used to understand and model physical reality. It's very much fundamental. Consider the simple case of throwing a ball. To describe the motion, one approach is to separately analyze the motion of vertical and horizontal motion. Vertical motion is affected by gravity while horizontal motion is not. If you viewed the ball throw from a birds eye view you couldn't make any comments about it's vertical motion. Likewise, if you viewed strictly the vertical motion you couldn't make any comments about its horizontal motion. Experiencing one doesn't give you information to make inferences about the other. But we don't say "well since horizontal motion isn't affected by gravity it must not be real". This is analogous to what were discussing here.

If you watched the brain activity of someone physically playing tennis and compared it to them dreaming that they were playing tennis, there would be no difference. This is backed up by research. If your brain can't tell the difference, how can you claim that your brain is just making up the dream? You consciously infer the dream is not real because you know you haven't physically experienced it. It surely wasn't physically real, but why must this mean it wasn't real in the dream world? Your brain thinks it was real because its activity was identical.

Edited August 7, 2014 by all16universes