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Still Waters

Horse meat could still be on sale in Britain

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Did the Rats have Pet Passports ? OK, NO is the answer. I get really annoyed when I think that I am buying Chicken, but get Rat. I want to know that the protein I eat is safe.

The rats had more right to be here than the people who were skinning them, breading then and then frying them up as chicken.

Will google the protein in rat meat for you, what time were you thinking of going to Kubilay`s Chicken Fried take away? will try and get it before you go.

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We do not know who to believe. My mum lives in France, they are now blaming the English for selling them drugged horse meat, this could all get quite tricky.

I hope not they test all the British minced beef on our shelves, forget findus, we have our own problems.

Gazza is always in rehab, the Sun said he was dying earlier, Gazza says he knows nothing about that. :whistle:

It's a question of he says,she says now.

So who's consuming the real beef at this moment in time.

It's probably a load of posh people in a posh restaurant.

If you want my honest opinion it would be a cold day in hell if you ever see me near a hamburger again.

I wouldn't even have a medium rare sirloin steak in a mixed grill.

It's funny but while this was going on Macdonalds are trying to freshen up their image.

And it has to be said my experience in a Bury meat market disturbed my nostrils.

The only thing that isn't tarnished by this experience is white meat.

Btw Gazza's a national treasure so I can imagine his fans having a vigil.

I actually posted something verbatim from the Star here about his downward spiral.

Tbh I don't care much for him as a person but he's probably the best midfielder that has worn the Three Lions.

Edited by Medium Brown
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I don't have any particular criteria besides how I personally feel.

So whether you eat pig flesh or dog flesh is just a matter of how you feel. That's an honest answer. Ethically though it's indefensible.

When the economy tanked I heard about the plight of people who couldn't afford to feed their horses and nobody would buy them. I think it would be better if those horses were used for food instead of letting them starve to death. Things change.

All non-human animals have euthanasia available to them, they don't have to starve.

Anyways, you've added weight to my argument that people decide which non-human animals to eat based on gut feelings (excuse the pun) and gustatory sensations. It's completely arbitrary. However, if I took a poll, I bet all these people would say that they don't condone unnecessary pain, suffering and death towards animals. People that live in a modern agricultural society do not need to consume animal flesh to stay healthy, so there's an obvious contradiction there. Most people ignore this moral schizophrenia by consciously blocking it out of their mind. The meat industry is happy to oblige by making sure no one sees what goes on in a slaughterhouse. In fact, in a growing number of states in America, videotaping in a slaughterhouse will get you a prison sentence and the label of "terrorist". That's how badly the industry and government want to avoid any public attention of where their juicy steaks come from.

With that said, here's a terrorist video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19eBAfUFK3E

n.b. this is not halal or kosher slaughter practice, this is just business as usual.

"Whenever people say "We mustn't be sentimental", you can take it they are about to do something cruel. And if they add, "We must be realistic", they mean they are going to make money out of it. These slogans have a long history. After being used to justify slave traders, ruthless industrialists, and contractors who had found the most economically "realistic" method of cleaning chimney was to force a small child to climb it, they now have been passed on, like an heirloom, to the factory farmers." Brigid Brophy

Edited by redhen

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So whether you eat pig flesh or dog flesh is just a matter of how you feel. That's an honest answer. Ethically though it's indefensible.

All non-human animals have euthanasia available to them, they don't have to starve.

I don't care whether it is indefensible to you.

Full stop on the other point. Don't tell me about euthanasia. I would be willing to bet you have not acquired the shot that vets use to euthanize a pet and administered it yourself, or even been in the same room when it happened. It is still too fresh in my mind to even discuss it at this point, but a gunshot to the head would have been quicker and in my opinion more humane.

Don't expect another response from me on this.

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All non-human animals have euthanasia available to them, they don't have to starve.

By who?

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News:

3 men have been arrested with the horse fiasco in ENGLAND. So are none getting arrested anywhere else or are we going to made to look like the only baddies here?

Still watching so will be back.

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All non-human animals have euthanasia available to them, they don't have to starve.

By who?

Obviously I'm not talking about wild/free range animals. I'm talking about animals that are owned by humans. And yes, when I say euthanasia, that includes a gunshot to the head, which is perfectly legal under common law. Letting animals starve to death would be illegal.

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Obviously I'm not talking about wild/free range animals. I'm talking about animals that are owned by humans. And yes, when I say euthanasia, that includes a gunshot to the head, which is perfectly legal under common law. Letting animals starve to death would be illegal.

Someone like you infuriates me! What if you lived in a place where it is illegal to own a gun? Even if you had one, could you do it? What about tiny pets...would you shoot a seriously ill mouse, hamster, gerbil or bird or would you do the humane thing and wring it's poor little neck?

The majority of people like you have never spent a lot of time around animals. They don't see the reality of life and death. I've spent my life rescuing animals...some of them you can save and some you can't. You learn to accept it and do what you can. If you can afford the expense to take each and every one of them to the vet more power to you. I've spent thousands of dollars and would be in a lot better place financially if I hadn't.

I am eternally greatful my husband has a big heart and does the things I can't do. It has severely hurt him on several occasions, but it has to be done...one way or the other.

I totally agree, animals of any kind, should be treated more humanely, but you are preaching to the choir here, honey.

Edited by Michelle
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Well its started:

The Compo hunters have got their gloves on and they are ready to come out to play:

A DAD last night told how he was struck down by a crippling horse bug — after eating dodgy Findus beef lasagnes.

Robert Powell, 40, feared he would die during 11 agonising days in hospital after scoffing dozens of the meals — some of which were 100 per cent horse meat.

He was stunned when doctors found an infection in his liver and spine usually caught from horses — which he had no contact with.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4796067/dad-falls-ill-after-eating-findus-beef-lasagnes.html

Don`t worry about the horse in your microwave ready meal pal, its the cancer causing ingredients you want to watch.

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This will be the next text craze from the compo chasers:

Have you eaten any ready meals containing mince recently, you could be entitled to compensation, please phone the number below for a quote on how much WE can get for you.

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Every day I seem to see something in the news about horse meat in the UK. This now -

Horse meat found in cottage pies sent to 47 schools in Lancashire

http://www.telegraph...Lancashire.html

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Every day I seem to see something in the news about horse meat in the UK. This now -

Horse meat found in cottage pies sent to 47 schools in Lancashire

http://www.telegraph...Lancashire.html

NOOOO, it can`t be!! some MP was saying last night that the schools had not been affected....personally I thought that was horse poo. Thanks for clarifying it.

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Personally I wish this much fuss had been made over the halal meat which they did not tell us about on our shelves, now they have to label it....I am more disgusted to see that on our shelves than a horsemeat!!

ps: I did tell the supermarkets how disgusted I was by it too, but obviously their profits are more important than some poor animal getting slaughtered because of a religious belief.

If it turns out that none of these horses were slaughtered, but were humanely killed, would that change anything? Doubt it, you will still see the newly packaged and labelled horse meat beside the halal meat.

Edited by freetoroam
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There are zoning laws about Durian.

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Someone like you infuriates me! What if you lived in a place where it is illegal to own a gun? Even if you had one, could you do it? What about tiny pets...would you shoot a seriously ill mouse, hamster, gerbil or bird or would you do the humane thing and wring it's poor little neck?

I was merely showing that there were more humane methods than letting horses starve to death. Personally I could not kill or euthanize any animal. The Sanskrit text in the Jain symbol avatar I have adopted translates to "nonviolence is the paramount teaching" (ahimsa paramo dharma).

The majority of people like you have never spent a lot of time around animals. They don't see the reality of life and death. I've spent my life rescuing animals...some of them you can save and some you can't. You learn to accept it and do what you can. If you can afford the expense to take each and every one of them to the vet more power to you. I've spent thousands of dollars and would be in a lot better place financially if I hadn't.

Same here. One does what one can.

I am eternally greatful my husband has a big heart and does the things I can't do. It has severely hurt him on several occasions, but it has to be done...one way or the other.

Yes, I'm dreading the day when I have to take the stray pets that have ended up at my door to the vet for euthanasia.

I totally agree, animals of any kind, should be treated more humanely, but you are preaching to the choir here, honey.

But you've stated that you eat meat, just not dog, cat or horses. It is unnecessary to eat meat in a modern agricultural society. If it's unnecessary, and it causes pain, suffering and death to animals, it is by definition, animal cruelty.

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Vegetarianism is continuously on the agenda in Vietnam, since two of the major religions, the Buddhists and the CaoDai discourage but don't prohibit eating meat. Neither group believes in imposing its morals by law on society, so it has never become a legal issue -- just an ethical one.

The real concern is for the karma of people who work in abattoirs and similar places, who must constantly kill. I have always seen these dire warnings as being rank superstition. If the animal is well cared for during its life and is killed quickly and without suffering, I think one is doing them a favor, Besides, if karma is the concern, the animal gets a lot of it providing food for others that way.

(Of course I suspect the economics of raising animals for food lead to practices not anywhere near as ideal as I would like, but this is outside my ken, and all I can do is try to encourage humane behavior).

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Neither group believes in imposing its morals by law on society, so it has never become a legal issue -- just an ethical one.

Hmm, if it wasn't for William Wilberforce (and his Christian faith) imposing his morals on society, we still might have slavery. Despite what Richard Dawkins says, religion is not the root of all evil. Much of our English common law is grounded in the Judeo-Christian religions.

The real concern is for the karma of people who work in abattoirs and similar places, who must constantly kill. I have always seen these dire warnings as being rank superstition.

There has been much work in the field of psychology that shows the detrimental effects of working in a slaughterhouse, that's not superstition, that's a fact.

If the animal is well cared for during its life and is killed quickly and without suffering, I think one is doing them a favor,

Please don't do me any favours. Thanks.

Besides, if karma is the concern, the animal gets a lot of it providing food for others that way.

Merit has to be earned. No one give anyone else merit. Sure there are plenty of Jataka tales of the Buddha offering slices of his flesh to tigers. But that's exactly what they are, tales.

(Of course I suspect the economics of raising animals for food lead to practices not anywhere near as ideal as I would like, but this is outside my ken, and all I can do is try to encourage humane behavior).

Outside your ken? Are you from another planet? Do you not feel pain and suffering? Would you like to be well cared for during your life and then killed quickly so someones taste buds are satisfied?

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i am a meat eater and always will be. As Frank said, "If the animal is well cared for during its life and is killed quickly and without suffering," then there is nothing wrong with this.

Nature can be far far more cruel if you see the way many animals kill their prey. As animals ourselves, i believe that killing an animal without causing it suffering to eat it, is no where near as cruel as nature itself.

I dread to think if everyone in this world became a vegetarian...the amount of food they would need to grow to cater for everyone would mean one thing in the end...more chemicals and more crops grown unnaturally.

Edited by freetoroam

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I am not persuaded that vegetarianism would not be better for the environment. Meat production is a singularly inefficient way to produce calories, and produces lots of CO2 and methane -- both gases serving to warm the planet.

The abolition of slavery as a moral crusade is fine, but the historical reality didn't work that way, and even if it had you had there a situation of oppression. All else being equal, I very much prefer it if people don't try to impose their personal morals on others.

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I am not persuaded that vegetarianism would not be better for the environment. Meat production is a singularly inefficient way to produce calories, and produces lots of CO2 and methane -- both gases serving to warm the planet.

The abolition of slavery as a moral crusade is fine, but the historical reality didn't work that way, and even if it had you had there a situation of oppression. All else being equal, I very much prefer it if people don't try to impose their personal morals on others.

If someone wants to be a vegetarian, great...for them.

But can you imagine the amount of GM foods they would have to produce. I can not find a single tomato in the supermarkets which does not resemble a soft tennis ball.

Our population is too big for us all to eat non GM foods and the producers would never agree to it, can you imagine the profits they would lose?

As you say, as long as the animal has had a good life and is killed humanely, then there is nothing wrong with that.

To all those who say that eating meat is cruel...I would like to know their stance on how nature really works out in the wild!

This being said, I am against halal and breeding animals in cages.

More farm land is being sold off and new housing estates are being built to accommodate the ever increasing population....maybe the veggies should address that issue first.

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i am a meat eater and always will be.

Yes, we've had this discussion before.

As Frank said, "If the animal is well cared for during its life and is killed quickly and without suffering," then there is nothing wrong with this.

Did you watch the documentary Earthlings I posted on this thread?

Nature can be far far more cruel if you see the way many animals kill their prey.

No, cruelty means unnecessary pain. Carnivores that kill and eat other animals do so not to satisfy some perverse, sadistic urge. They do it so they can continue to live. We (humans) are not obligate carnivores. Therefore, eating meat is by definition, cruel.

I dread to think if everyone in this world became a vegetarian...the amount of food they would need to grow to cater for everyone would mean one thing in the end...more chemicals and more crops grown unnaturally.

More energy, water and crops are needed to feed cattle than if they were to be applied for crops for direct consumption.

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I am not persuaded that vegetarianism would not be better for the environment. Meat production is a singularly inefficient way to produce calories, and produces lots of CO2 and methane -- both gases serving to warm the planet.

Agreed.

The abolition of slavery as a moral crusade is fine, but the historical reality didn't work that way, and even if it had you had there a situation of oppression.

Are you saying that because a societal moral improvement does not take place overnight and with an ideal outcome, we should not pursue them?

All else being equal, I very much prefer it if people don't try to impose their personal morals on others.

Things are not equal. You live in a human society, and can not escape it's current norms and values.

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Yes, we've had this discussion before.

Did you watch the documentary Earthlings I posted on this thread?

No, cruelty means unnecessary pain. Carnivores that kill and eat other animals do so not to satisfy some perverse, sadistic urge. They do it so they can continue to live. We (humans) are not obligate carnivores. Therefore, eating meat is by definition, cruel.

More energy, water and crops are needed to feed cattle than if they were to be applied for crops for direct consumption.

Sorry, did not see the documentary, but will have a look, thankyou.

I will beg to differ on the eating meat is cruel, but respect your own personal view.

My grandmother lived off her land, she grew all her own vegetables. But she could not live with out her meat. Rabbits were often on the menu, none of them were inhumanely killed.....I would rather see a rabbit on my plate i knew was humanely killed than see one squashed on the road by some car.

Where I live at the moment, in the woods there are often rabbit skeletons, foxes love rabbits, but there is no shortage of suffering when the fox gets hold of them.

Humans have always hunted for food, and meat has been part of that. I am glad that we do not all have to kill animals in an inhumane way, but am still shocked at the fact that rituals like halal are still allowed to sell the meat in the western world.

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