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David Henson

Genesis Chapter 1

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For anyone interested, here's a BBC documentary (some 30 yrs old now) on the history of the Bible, according to the consensus of academics. It's narrated by John Romer. "Romer is probably — along with Michael Wood — the best known television presenter of ancient history"

The first 2 segments deal with Genesis.

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Note to scholars: Jesus didn't say J, E and P.

Its a thinly veiled attempt to dismiss the Biblical authority.

Jesus never heard of J, E, and P. His learning here was somewhat too early.

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A flood is not a myth!

Never said it was. I was referring to the "Flood Myth" that is part of every culture on this planet. This indicates a common origin, which would seem to show that this particular flood event did happen.

Earth has been through a few ice ages over the centuries, if there had been no floods i would be very surprised!

Yes, there have been many in the past and there will be many more in the future. But if these forensic geneticists can find when a mutation to the genes responsible for aging occurred (if it exists) then we would have a candidate for when a flood occurred that we identify as Noah's Flood. Once that was done then is there geologic evidence of a flood that would correspond?

As for age, I can not see how the floods would decrease the age span......now a drought, that I can understand!

A drought or flood would be about the same. A drought would generate winds and those winds would stir up dust and other things in the soil and would spread that to humans, i.e. the Dust Bowl. Some of these things could be anthrax, Valley Fever, or Hanta Virus, etc. A flood would do the same thing as we saw with Katrina as it mixed chemicals from each home with anything else it could wash up. A meteor could probably do the same. Isn't that one theory about how life died out in North America about 30,000 years ago? Anything like that would poison the environment and would trigger some mutation in the genome as the Black Plague did with the CCR5-D32 gene. Well, whether the plague is what caused that mutation or not is probably debatable but there always seems to be a percentage of the population that has the right mutation at the right time.

From the book of Enoch:

Enoch speaking "My son Methuselah took a wife for his son Lamech. She became pregnant by him, and brought forth a child, the flesh of which was white as snow and red as a rose; the hair of whose head was white like wool, and long; and whose eyes were beautiful. When he opened them he illuminated all the house, like the sun; the whole house abounded with light. And when he was taken from the hand of the midwife, he opened his mouth to Yahweh Elohim.

Then Lamech his father was afraid of him, and flying away came to his own father Methuselah, and said "I have begotten a son, a changed son. He is not human, but resembling the offspring of the angels of heaven, is of a different nature from ours, being altogether unlike us. His eyes are bright as the rays of the sun, his countenance glorious, and he looks not as if he belonged to me but to the angels. I am afraid lest something miraculous should take place on earth in his days. And now, my father, let me entreat and request you to go to our progenitor Enoch, and to learn from him the truth, for his residence is with the angels".

Sounds like some kind of genetic mutation. Perhaps Noah was born with this "aging" gene and this records the genetic change?? And he passed it on to his sons? Can genetics determine how long ago that was?

But when you say within their story of creation? do you mean from the times of the apes through to the evolution of man? Pleeease, not adam and eve!!

I'm not really talking about evolution. But at one certain point in which there was a mating pair that was considered to be Homo sapiens. Perhaps some 150,000 years ago?? That mating pair would be what we identify as Adam and Eve or at least one candidate. Another candidate would have been about 12,000 to 30,000 years ago. This one would have been a pair to have mastered those human traits that we have today, like speaking. The first Homo sapiens probably couldn't communicate verbally like we do today. I doubt they would speak proper English with a British accent. It was more like how apes do. Adam was able to communicate and pass on his experiences and his knowledge of GOD. So I would say at the very least, within the past 50,000 years.

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If Adam were alagorical he wouldn't appear in the Chronology as having offspring, and more importantly, he wouldn't have sinned and so there would be no point for a Messiah to take away his sin.

Actually, I think he would and has. We don't need an unbroken line to indeed know that Jesus is a descendant of Adam. For Redemption to work then, each one of us today would need to trace a line from Adam or Jesus and that is near impossible. So Redemption must work on faith. We know it can't be anything else, so the story is allegorical. That doesn't make it any less true. The chronology of the first 11 chapters of Genesis is not sequential. There are holes. But that does not change the Message one iota.

Just like if Moses hadn't written the Pentateuch Jesus wouldn't have said: "In fact, if you believed Moses you would believe me, for that one wrote about me. But if you do not believe the writings of that one, how will you believe my sayings?” (John 5:46-47)

Note to scholars: Jesus didn't say J, E and P.

Moses does not need to be the *writer* to have gotten credit for putting it together. He oversaw the project. If you follow the Documentary Hypothesis, there were four sources that Moses pulled from. Now if Moses, guided by GOD had sat down and wrote the whole thing, then it would flow within the same style and tone all the way through. It is not that way. There is a chart in the DH that shows the distribution of the four sources. The chart looks like a hard drive that needs to be defragmented. The only thing that can cause that is if you have several sources that overlap and an editor piecing the best parts together. Now there is nothing to say that Moses was one of the four. Joseph might have been another. Adam, Enoch, or Noah could have been the others or Moses had four scribes go among the people to collect all the oral stories they could and finally, he edited them together with what was written. Until that point, they didn't have a common canon of the origin of their people. And what they did have was heavily influenced by Egyptian mythology. So it had to be a huge task to pull a Hebrew flavor out of all that data. That is how I would see GOD guiding Moses.

Its a thinly veiled attempt to dismiss the Biblical authority.

Not at all. Understanding *HOW* Moses wrote the Pentateuch doesn't change the Message of the Bible or the Mission of Jesus.

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Never said it was. I was referring to the "Flood Myth" that is part of every culture on this planet. This indicates a common origin, which would seem to show that this particular flood event did happen.

There was no Great Flood, but after the end of the ice age there must have been several smaller but very destructive floods caused by ice lakes breaching through ice dams. There were ice lakes 600 meters deep (Altai region), just to give you an idea. But all this happened many thousands of years before the socalled Noah's Flood, and spread out over an interval of thousands of years.

Then there must have been floods caused by tsunamis caused by earthquakes and whatnot, and so giving rise to other legends about a Flood.

These things happened all over the earth (like erupting volcanoes, earthquakes, rain, snow and wind and so on), so it is to be expected legends will mention the same phenomenon, but not necessarily the same one at the same time.

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There was no Great Flood, but after the end of the ice age there must have been several smaller but very destructive floods caused by ice lakes breaching through ice dams. There were ice lakes 600 meters deep (Altai region), just to give you an idea. But all this happened many thousands of years before the socalled Noah's Flood, and spread out over an interval of thousands of years.

I didn't say "Great Flood"; I said a flood that we identify as Noah's Flood. I don't believe that there was no rain until GOD broke this *bladder* of water around the Earth and it took 40 days and 40 nights to drain. I don't necessarily believe in just a local flood either. I think it was a regional flood. I.e. there are theories that the Mediterranean, Black Sea, or Persian Gulf were deep valleys that contained no water until glacial waters broke through the land creating a flood of such force that it could surge all the way up to the "mountains of Ararat". I also don't believe in Ussher's Chronology. The Earth is older than 6000 years and Noah's Flood probably occurred during the glacial melt off thousands of years earlier.

Then there must have been floods caused by tsunamis caused by earthquakes and whatnot, and so giving rise to other legends about a Flood.

Other legends about a flood or other legends about earthquake and what not?? A great flood is still a great flood no matter what the source is.

These things happened all over the earth (like erupting volcanoes, earthquakes, rain, snow and wind and so on), so it is to be expected legends will mention the same phenomenon, but not necessarily the same one at the same time.

Massive volcanoes, Earthquakes, and other disasters equal in force did occur. But you would think that there would be a near equal distribution of disasters. But we don't see that. We don't see different sources. People were smart enough to understand what seasonal floods were or a common earthquake or a volcanic plume. Noah's Flood is based on a catastrophic event that no one had seen in remembered history. And what is it that states that there should have been a disaster? We don't have any stories where *nothing* happened.

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"In the beginning God created the heaven (singular) and the earth." Why is it important that we notice that heaven is singular? Because God does "everything twice for our strong consolation." We don't know how long ago was the creation of heaven and earth; but God calls that the beginning of His creation.

Then God gave Lucifer for a covering of the earth. This why he is sometimes called the prince of the air.

"And the earth was confusion and emptiness and darkness was upon the face of the deep." The devil is the "author of confusion." The second verse of Genesis shows the effects of the author of confusion. Darkness is upon the earth. If the devil is the author of confusion, then this confusion is not God's doing.

"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." The entire earth was covered in water, the result of the author of confusion - Lucifer.

"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." This is spiritual light radiating from God. It is not from a celestial body. As yet, that had not been created.

When God released His light, He stepped back and surveyed His work and said - Ah, Good! - - Not sinless - not pure; but good for His purposes. After seeing the destruction at the hand of the sinful author of confusion, God set in motion a plan. THE FIRST STING OPERATION.

God did not eliminate the darkness. He just divided darkness with half light. The sting operation will not be based upon what God knows. It will be by the same rules He required of the Jews. - - There must be two witnesses with no contradictions. (Everything twice for a strong consolation.)

"And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." A day consisting of an evening and a morning is 24 hours. The darkness was first, therefore, God starts the 24 hour day with the evening. The Jewish 24 hour day starts at dusk, (or evening) and goes through the next day until dusk again. They are following God's example. This was the 1st day.

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; And God called the firmament HEAVEN." (Here's the 2nd heaven). And the evening and the morning were the 2nd (24 hour) day.

The waters that had completely covered the earth were divided with half being placed in an atmosphere called HEAVEN the encircled the earth and includes deep outer space. So God has divided the darkness and the waters and He has made a 2nd HEAVEN. (Everything twice for a strong consolation.)

PLEASE NOTICE: THE 2ND DAY IS THE ONLY DAY GOD DID NOT STEP BACK AND SURVEY HIS WORK AND DECLARE IT GOOD. This is because the all knowing God knew there was going to be a time when he was going to use the waters as a curve correction again evil mankind; and He took no delight in it. God makes up for this lack of "Good" on Day 6 by separating the day into two parts and surveying His work and declaring twice "Good" and "Very Good". (Twice for a strong consolation.)

"And God said, Let the waters under the 2nd heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear; And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called He Seas; and God saw that it was good." Not sinless; but good for God's purpose. He made the earth one large dry land mass.

And God said, Let the earth bring forth vegetation, the herb yielding seed, the fruit tree yielding fruit after its kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth...And the evening and the morning were the 3rd day." (Another 24 hour day that started with an evening and ended with a morning.)

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divided the day from the night; and let them be for SIGNS, and for seasons, and for days, and years." In the 2nd heaven's firmament where the water was placed on the 2nd day, celestial planets were now created on the 4th day. God's light was already on the earth, so it does not matter how long it took for their light to reach the earth. A cycle of light and darkness was already taking place on the earth every 24 hours. With the creation of the celestial lights, man can determine seasons, 24 hour days, and years. The one thing modern man has missed, which was listed first, is that these lights are for SIGNS. Warnings and celebrations have been and will continue to be announced to mankind through lights in heaven as SIGNS.

"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven" Part of the 2nd heaven's firmament has an open area in which fowl may fly. "And God created great sea monsters (Hebrew - tanniym which means marine and land preternatural monsters, dragon). Three things were created Day 5. (1) moving creature that lives in waters, (2) fowl that may fly above the earth, and (3) preter-natural (out of the natural) hideous land/marine animals -- dinosaurs.

On Day 6, God creates four things. He saved the best for last. "And God said, Let the earth bring forth the (1) living creature after its kind, (2) cattle, and (3) creeping thing, and (4) beast of the earth after its kind, and it was so."

Words by their use have a meaning different from the regular dictionary definition. The words "living creature" and "flesh" mean mankind. The only time the word "flesh" is used for an animal is when it is on the alter sizzling for mankind.

Then God goes about creating the things He said He was going to created. It is curious that God skipped the "living creature" and started with the domestic cattle, then all creeping thing, and next the wild beast of the earth. Beast of the earth is not the same as the domestic beast of the field.

The living creature on the earth was to bring forth after its kind. This is Gentiles (beginning/tiles of clay of the earth). Two couples of very very black Gentiles and two couples of light Gentiles were created. That way the races stayed very very black and white without incest of a brother and sister. The very very black race is God's special proof that no race gradually gets white or started white and gradually becomes very very black. The only way for skin color to change is through introduction other than their kind. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. What is a sin today has always been a sin. God did not create only one male and one female and bless them to multiply through sinful incest.

Day 7 God rested. On Day 8, (eight being God's number for beginning again that which is already) God created Man (not male) Adam, the first Jew. He was created naked. Nudity is a sin. God is fighting sin with sin. Adam did not know good from evil, therefore he was not ashamed. Later, Adam lied to Eva and said if you TOUCH the fruit you will die that very same day. Nudity and lying were present and no one had eaten from the fruit.

The first six days it was Elohim (God in the plural and implied Triune Godhead) that was identified. Day 8, God was identified as Jehovah. That is how Gentiles have known God as Elohim/Triune. Jehovah/One is how God has revealed Himself to the Jews.

The Garden of Eden and the field is Israel and Jerusalem. The river boundaries are Tigris/Euphrates to the north, Nile to the south at Cush, and Jordan to the east. Since earth was still one large landmass until the earthquake of Peleg's day, the Mediterranean Sea was not there yet, sometime after Noah's flood.

May God remove the blindness of the Laodiceans.

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The living creature on the earth was to bring forth after its kind. This is Gentiles (beginning/tiles of clay of the earth). Two couples of very very black Gentiles and two couples of light Gentiles were created. That way the races stayed very very black and white without incest of a brother and sister. The very very black race is God's special proof that no race gradually gets white or started white and gradually becomes very very black. The only way for skin color to change is through introduction other than their kind. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. What is a sin today has always been a sin. God did not create only one male and one female and bless them to multiply through sinful incest.

I am greatly curious as to where you got this information.

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The ageing gene must be a result of inbreeding..... Think about that one for a minute ;)

Edited by Seeker79

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I didn't say "Great Flood"; I said a flood that we identify as Noah's Flood. I don't believe that there was no rain until GOD broke this *bladder* of water around the Earth and it took 40 days and 40 nights to drain. I don't necessarily believe in just a local flood either. I think it was a regional flood. I.e. there are theories that the Mediterranean, Black Sea, or Persian Gulf were deep valleys that contained no water until glacial waters broke through the land creating a flood of such force that it could surge all the way up to the "mountains of Ararat". I also don't believe in Ussher's Chronology. The Earth is older than 6000 years and Noah's Flood probably occurred during the glacial melt off thousands of years earlier.

Other legends about a flood or other legends about earthquake and what not?? A great flood is still a great flood no matter what the source is.

Massive volcanoes, Earthquakes, and other disasters equal in force did occur. But you would think that there would be a near equal distribution of disasters. But we don't see that. We don't see different sources. People were smart enough to understand what seasonal floods were or a common earthquake or a volcanic plume. Noah's Flood is based on a catastrophic event that no one had seen in remembered history. And what is it that states that there should have been a disaster? We don't have any stories where *nothing* happened.

You suggested a common origin, and I explained why that does not have to be the case at all because many catastrophic floods occurred in many parts on the globe after the end of the last ice age, and so people will have created similar sounding legends witout one having anything to do with the other.

Even later events, like tsunamis caused by earthquakes could have given rise to flood legends. My point is that there may be many legends of floods around the world (and there are) but they are not necessarily connected, not necessarily caused by the same thing, and not necessarily happened at the same moment.

The latest theory is that Noah's Flood occured around 2800 BCE, and that it was caused by an impact of a meteorite into the Indian Ocean, east of Madagascar (see: Burckle Crater). It would - if it happened - most probably have inundated the valley that became the Persian Gulf, plus inundations along the east African and Indian coast.

Something similar is said to have happened between 400 and 200 BCE when a meteorite impacted in the North Atlantic, east of New York. Even a Dutch/Frisian historiographer (Schotanus) of the 17th century hints at this: between 360 and 350 BCE a catastrophic flood occured on the coasts of the North Sea.

Btw, the Black Sea event appears to be anything but catastrophic according to the latest research results. It also happened much earlier than initially assumed. The Mediterranean flood happened some 5.3 million years ago, so I doubt it would have given rise to any legends because there were no humans around back then.

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Modern humans were reduced to around 2,000 individuals at some point in our past. I think it was a super volcanic eruption and a corresponding ice age. Those must have been fun times.

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Modern humans were reduced to around 2,000 individuals at some point in our past. I think it was a super volcanic eruption and a corresponding ice age. Those must have been fun times.

You mean the Mount Toba eruption around 75,000 BP.

Yeah, it appears humans almost died out.

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"In the beginning God created the heaven (singular) and the earth." Why is it important that we notice that heaven is singular? Because God does "everything twice for our strong consolation." We don't know how long ago was the creation of heaven and earth; but God calls that the beginning of His creation.

<snip>

You might want to read the literal translation of the Hebrew original:

A Mechanical Translation of the Book of Genesis

The Hebrew text literally translated word for word

1:1

in the summit “Elohiym [Powers]”

fattened the sky and the land,

1:2

and the land had existed in

confusion and was unfilled and

darkness was upon the face of the

deep sea and the wind of “Elohiym

[Powers]” was much fluttering

upon the face of the water,

1:3

and “Elohiym [Powers]” said, light

exist and light existed,

1:4

and “Elohiym [Powers]” saw the

light given that it was functional

and “Elohiym [Powers]” made a

separation between the light and the

darkness,

1:5

and “Elohiym [Powers]” called out

to the light day and to the darkness

he called out night and evening

existed and morning existed one

day,

1:6

and “Elohiym [Powers]” said, a

sheet will exist in the midst of the

water and he existed making a

separation between water to water,

1:7

and “Elohiym [Powers]” made the

sheet and he made a separation

between the water which is under

the sheet and the water which is

upon the sheet and he existed so,

1:8

and “Elohiym [Powers]” called out

to the sheet, sky, and evening

existed and morning existed a

second day,

1:9

and “Elohiym [Powers]” said, the

water will be bound up from under

the sky to one place and dry ground

appeared and he existed so,

1:10

and “Elohiym [Powers]” called out

to the dry ground, land, and the

collection of the water he called

out, seas, and “Elohiym [Powers]”

saw that it was functional,

1:11

and “Elohiym [Powers]” said, the

land will make grass sprout, herbs

making a sowing of seeds, trees of

produce making produce to his kind

which his seed is in him upon the

land, and he existed so,

And so on.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/bookstore/e-books/mtg.pdf

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<snip>

The Garden of Eden and the field is Israel and Jerusalem. The river boundaries are Tigris/Euphrates to the north, Nile to the south at Cush, and Jordan to the east. Since earth was still one large landmass until the earthquake of Peleg's day, the Mediterranean Sea was not there yet, sometime after Noah's flood.

May God remove the blindness of the Laodiceans.

About the location of the Garden of Eden:

The most recent building phase at Göbekli Tepe (Level II) has been dated both comparatively and absolutely (C14) to ca 8,000 BC, with an earlier primary building phase (Level III) ending as early as 9,000 BC. The age of the earliest occupation cannot yet be determined; the depth of the deposit, however, would suggest a period of several millennia, which signifies that the site had already existed in early Palaeolithic times.

==

Karahan Tepe, a site only discovered in the late 1990s and still awaiting full excavation. This is located near Sogmatar on the Harran Plain, and dates back 11,000 years at least. Already a large number of T-Shaped pillars and stone rows have been uncovered here.

Karahan Tepe lies 60 km east from Urfa in an area called Tektek Daglari. Some 266 in situ pillars (Like the Göbekli pillars...only smaller) cover the field and are visible 50-60 cm above ground level. The rest of the pillars are still covered under the earth.

http://www.ancient-w...rkeygobekli.htm

+++++

But there was a problem for these early farmers, and it wasn't just that they had adopted a tougher, if ultimately more productive, lifestyle. They also experienced an ecological crisis. These days the landscape surrounding the eerie stones of Gobekli is arid and barren, but it was not always thus. As the carvings on the stones show - and as archaeological remains reveal - this was once a richly pastoral region.

There were herds of game, rivers of fish, and flocks of wildfowl; lush green meadows were ringed by woods and wild orchards. About 10,000 years ago, the Kurdish desert was a 'paradisiacal place', as Schmidt puts it. So what destroyed the environment? The answer is Man.

As we began farming, we changed the landscape and the climate. When the trees were chopped down, the soil leached away; all that ploughing and reaping left the land eroded and bare. What was once an agreeable oasis became a land of stress, toil and diminishing returns.

And so, paradise was lost. Adam the hunter was forced out of his glorious Eden, 'to till the earth from whence he was taken' - as the Bible puts it.

Of course, these theories might be dismissed as speculations. Yet there is plenty of historical evidence to show that the writers of the Bible, when talking of Eden, were, indeed, describing this corner of Kurdish Turkey.

In the Book of Genesis, it is indicated that Eden is west of Assyria. Sure enough, this is where Gobekli is sited.

Likewise, biblical Eden is by four rivers, including the Tigris and Euphrates. And Gobekli lies between both of these.

In ancient Assyrian texts, there is mention of a 'Beth Eden' - a house of Eden. This minor kingdom was 50 miles from Gobekli Tepe.

Another book in the Old Testament talks of 'the children of Eden which were in Thelasar', a town in northern Syria, near Gobekli.

The very word 'Eden' comes from the Sumerian for 'plain'; Gobekli lies on the plains of Harran.

Thus, when you put it all together, the evidence is persuasive. Gobekli Tepe is, indeed, a 'temple in Eden', built by our leisured and fortunate ancestors - people who had time to cultivate art, architecture and complex ritual, before the traumas of agriculture ruined their lifestyle, and devastated their paradise.

It's a stunning and seductive idea. Yet it has a sinister epilogue. Because the loss of paradise seems to have had a strange and darkening effect on the human mind.

A few years ago, archaeologists at nearby Cayonu unearthed a hoard of human skulls. They were found under an altar-like slab, stained with human blood.

No one is sure, but this may be the earliest evidence for human sacrifice: one of the most inexplicable of human behaviours and one that could have evolved only in the face of terrible societal stress.

Experts may argue over the evidence at Cayonu. But what no one denies is that human sacrifice took place in this region, spreading to Palestine, Canaan and Israel.

Archaeological evidence suggests that victims were killed in huge death pits, children were buried alive in jars, others roasted in vast bronze bowls.

These are almost incomprehensible acts, unless you understand that the people had learned to fear their gods, having been cast out of paradise. So they sought to propitiate the angry heavens.

This savagery may, indeed, hold the key to one final, bewildering mystery. The astonishing stones and friezes of Gobekli Tepe are preserved intact for a bizarre reason.

Long ago, the site was deliberately and systematically buried in a feat of labour every bit as remarkable as the stone carvings.

http://www.dailymail...arden-Eden.html

+++++

The history of Şanlıurfa is recorded from the 4th century BC, but may date back to 9000 BC, when there is ample evidence for the surrounding sites at Duru, Harran and Nevali Cori. It was one of several cities in the Euphrates-Tigris basin, the cradle of the Mesopotamian civilization. According to Turkish Muslim traditions Urfa (its name since Byzantine days) is the biblical city of Ur of the Chaldees, due to its proximity to the biblical village of Harran.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Şanlıurfa

+++++

Harran seems to have been the home of Abram (Gen 12:1,4), not Ur, though Ur, according to Cyrus Gordon, was the nearby town later called Edessa (Urfa) but which was called Urfu, at that time, not the Ur near the junction of the two rivers much further south. Apollonius Molo, even in the first century BC, tells a different story about the origin of Abraham from Genesis. The Patriarch was born in the mountainous edges of Syria, fringing on the northern steppes, after his ancestors had fled from Armenia. This description fits the same place—it is the neighbourhood of Urfa and Harran, a place known as Beth Eden (Bit Adini)! Biblicists have always know where Eden was, but they did not care to say.

http://www.askwhy.co...Patriarchs1.php

From a link at the and of that page:

Prominent atheist Richard Dawkins and Britain’s Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks met in an hour-long debate on science and religion, as part of the Re:Think Festival in Salford.

“How do you decide which bits [of scripture] are symbolic and which bits are not?” asked Prof Dawkins at one point during the discussion.

“Very simple,” replied the Chief Rabbi.

“The rabbis in the 10th century laid down the following principle: if a biblical narrative is incompatible with established scientific fact, it is not to be read literally.”

Christians take note. The Old Testament is the scripture of Jews. Maybe the Rabbis can be expected to know it better than TV evangelicals.

http://mikemagee.wordpress.com/

Edited by Abramelin

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You mean the Mount Toba eruption around 75,000 BP.

Yeah, it appears humans almost died out.

That would be it. About as close to the Noah story as we're going to get I think.

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Yes The bible does seem to be hinting at switch from hunter gatherer lifestyle to an agragarian one and the problems it brings. There are references to god not really likeing the ground and agriculture.

I think it's self evident that there was no biblical Adam. The name means "man of the earth" in original oral traditions it could very well of been referencing people of he earth meaning people that still live traditional hunter gathers lifestyles. There are many references to native Americans being "people of the earth".

Edited by Seeker79

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"If a scripture is not compatible with established fact, then it is not to be taken literally."

That is helpful: how about a few more:

If a scripture portrays God as a monster, then it is not to be taken literally.

If a scripture portrays God as petty or jealous or greedy or vain or revengeful or untruthful or untrustworthy, and so on, then it is not to be taken literally.

If a scripture is not compatible with ordinary reason, then it is not to be taken literally.

If a scripture is not compatible with known or reasonable history, then it is not to be taken literally.

If a scripture is not compatible with fundamental morality, then it is not to be taken literally.

Do we have any scripture left that we can take literally?

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Noah's flood was Utnapishtim's flood, and Utnapishtim's flood was Atrahasis' flood, and Atrahasis' flood was just a really destructive river flood.

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That would be it. About as close to the Noah story as we're going to get I think.

Nah.

You really think that something that happened 75,000 years ago would have been saved in legends or something?

I think the 2800 BCE event, the possible impact of a meteorite in the Indian Ocean is the best candidate.

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There is no such thing as going back to the original Hebrew. That's because God gave the inspired word and it was not to show corruption. After use when the scrolls were showing wear, they were to be buried, (not stored in clay jars), so that they would completely disintegrate. When Jesus came there were no Hebrew Bibles. The civilized world had become Greek speaking. The Septuagint (Greek translation) was the only Bible the New Testament Christians had.

Jesus stated the kingdom of heaven on earth would be leavened in three measures of meal til the whole was leavened. Meal is the kingdom of heaven in the inspired word spreading into three languages: (Just like the sign over his head on the cross) written in Greek, Latin, and Hebrew.

Another apostle's narrative says the sign was written in: Hebrew, Greek and Latin. And that is the original path the word inspired by God was translated. It began in Hebrew. But the spreading of the kingdom of heaven did not begin with the Hebrew. It began in the Greek and traveled to the Old Latin Vulgate (not to be confused with Origen's Latin Vulgate some 300 years later). The last leavened will be a translation into Hebrew.

So there is no need to go to the Hebrew. Start with the Greek.

There are keys to understanding the Bible. God gave them to Peter. With these keys what he discovered would bind and loose truths. You don't have to go to so many resources. Those several keys have been given to us in the Bible. When you realize that God gives or says or does everything twice in the Bible for our strong consolation, it will open many doors of our understanding.

God created male and female. Later Day Eight, God created Man Adam and Woman. God created two special trees. Adam committed two sins before anyone had eaten the fruit. When they ate the fruit they gain knowledge of good and evil. The serpent was cursed above every animal and beast. All creation was not cursed. A serpent is still cursed by man more than every animal and beast of the field. The ground by Adam's sake where the tree with the sinful serpent was cursed. How appropriate that that same piece of cursed ground is where Jesus died on a cursed tree for the sins of His predestined elect people.

Watch the paths repeated over and over in the Bible. That gives confirmation. Adam was created one place and then placed east in the garden. All the earth was still in one clump. Israel and the Garden of Eden, (Jerusalem), were east from God's viewpoint. When Abraham went down to Egypt, he came up on the eastern side of the Jordan and crossed over the Jordan to enter Canaan. When Moses brought the Israelites out of Egypt, they were on the eastern side of the Jordan and crossed over the Jordan to enter Canaan. When Jesus began His ministry, (a priest had to be washed by a priest to begin his ministry), Jesus was baptized by John "beyond the Jordan." He crossed over the Jordan and began preaching. ALWAYS FROM THE EAST GOING TOWARD THE WEST.

When Paul started preaching, he intended to go toward the east -- toward Asia. The Holy Spirit told him not to go that direction -- to go toward the west. That way the gospel has traveled and will end up where it started -- in Genesis --- in Israel.

These patterns give a pretty good clue that Adam was created beyond the Jordan and crossed the Jordan and placed westward in the field and the Garden. Maps show a site called Adam just beyond the Jordan. Makes me think that is where the finger of God scooped out clay and molded Man Adam like a potter that makes one lump into a vessel of honor and another vessel unto dishonor. I have no scripture to support the belief that Adam was created there; and I know I do not need to go to other resources to try to prove what the scriptures do not. I have to find two things in the Bible to point to that conclusion before I can use it for proof. So it is just my belief --- nothing more.

By the way, according to the Bible. Adam was never a hunter. He was a farmer, tilling soil to grow grain. His son, Cain, followed after his father. He was a farmer. His only brother, Abel, was a sheperd. Cain was like a priest - (the inspired word is symbolized by grain & meal). It takes oxen to till fields. They were supposed to sacrifice their best. Abel sacrificed a lamb. But Cain gave his own version of the word which was corrupt, the work of his prideful hands.

When a sacrifice was given at the alter, pigeons or doves were killed on the eastern side of the alter. Sheep or goats were killed on the northern side of the alter. Oxen were killed on the western side of the alter. Between the alter and the door into the tabernale was the laver or word of God. God said Cain's sin was between the alter and the door. Cain did not give his best - an oxen.

I've got to go. I could go on and on --- my favorite subject.

May God bless us to find Peter's keys and open our understanding of the Bible.

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I'm glad you asked. Look up on the internet or most any genetic study book in a book store and you will come across something called a Punnett square. Christian teachers are particularily fond of using this table to show how diverse skin colors can have come about in a few generations.

Punnett's square shows:

1. Three genes control the synthesis of melanin, (skin color). Each gene has two alleles for skin color. The formular is ABC representing very dark skin color and abc representing light skin color. An offspring inherits an equal number of three genes from each parent. So by mixing these ABC and abc matches it shows how differenting amounts of dark genes with light genes can produce diverse skin color of offsprings.

2. But if you study Punnett's square closely, you should notice that the ABC parent with the ABC parent only has an offspring of ABC genes. That's because the offspring inherits an equal amount from each parents and there are no abc genes to inherit. Thus proving that the very dark tribes who have been isolated (probably intentionally by God to prove this very point) only get lighter with introduction of lighter gene parent.

3. Here is something else to consider. When Eva was created she wasn't spoken into being like the Gentiles of Day Six. She wasn't molded out of red clay like Man Adam on Day Eight. She was taken from Adam's rib while he slept (which is a foreshadow of the church coming out of Jesus' side while He was dead - sleep being used in the Bible for death)- - - -

Sorry, I got off the subject but the Bible is so facinating for it's foreshadows such as this foreshadow of Adam and Eva for Jesus and the church - - - - and this before Eva had drawn her first breath.

The Bible says Eva was Adam's flesh and bone. Blood is manufactured in the bones. Therefore, Eva was the first clone. She had no earthly father and mother and did not come from a combination of egg and seed. Now, go back to Punnett's square. Eva had Adam's exact same DNA. I find no combination of ABC with abc that produces AABBCC very black offspring.

There is also a picture of twins born of which one is very light and the other is dark (not very dark, but dark). Christian teachers use this case as an example of how very dark and very light skin color offspring can come about from just two parents. What they hope is that you are opening your mouth and swallowing whatever they shovel out. The one parent was dark and the other was white. Which proves the point again if you have your brain in gear. Only through introduction of a different skin color does that change.

By the way, did you also notice that Adam had no earth father. That makes that aspect of Adam a foreshadow of Jesus who had no earthly father.

Ain't the Bible great????? It's balance and keys are fascinating and foreshadows and patterns just keep opening understandings of more and more of the Bible.

Here's a little something you might enjoy meditating on:

Look at the patterns God uses in the Bible. One pattern is that God always chose the 2nd of everything. He chose the 2nd Man - Adam the first Jew; the 2nd son, Abel, the 2nd son, Joseph (the 1st son of the 2nd wife was considered to be the 2nd son), the 2nd son, Moses; the 2nd king, David; the 2nd Kingdom, Judah; the 2nd tabernacle in the wilderness; the 2nd Temple - Zerubbabel's (NOT HEROD'S); the 2nd invisible church on earth (Adam to Moses and now the invisible New Testament church); and on and on.

Abraham being the only exception; but he is such a father symbol (father of nations - spiritual father) that he is a foreshadow of God the Father of whom there is no other.

God bless us all is my prayer.

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