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Jor-el

Demons, what are they?

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He doesn't. He is wrong in fact.

Truly?

Since your statement has no corroboration at all except a denial of acceptance, I cannot give it credence.

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Simple answer to your question Jor-el MOTHER in LAWS. :yes:

:innocent: I Refuse To Answer On The Grounds That I May Incriminate Myself Or Get My Butt Kicked By Loved Ones...

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Jor-El, what is your take on this passage?

11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Ephesians 6:11-12

Whom do you identify as those beings mentioned here?

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Jor-El, what is your take on this passage?

11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Ephesians 6:11-12

Whom do you identify as those beings mentioned here?

They are the faction who are fighting Gods plans and purpose for humanity. They are the bene elohim who corrupted themselves and were judged as exemplified in Psalm 82. We habitually and generically call them demons, but that is an incorrect assumption on our part, since demons are a specific class of being who serve the powers and principalites who still command the Earth.

God himself, when he gave humanity over to its own idolatry and worship of created beings, appointed 70 "bene elohim" to rule and guide humanity since they had rejected him.

We can find evidence of this in a number of verses...

Deuteronomy 32:8-9

8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

9 For the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.

To confirm the above we have another.

Deuteronomy 4:19

19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly host—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.

Since the "Host of heaven" refers to these "sons of God". They are essentially the same. Not all sons of God are corrupt but some of them are.

The Old Testament recognizes the existence of multiple gods who are real enough, because they not only tempt us, but arouse the jealously and wrath of God (Ex 20:3, 20:13, Lev 19:4, Deut 5:7, 6:14, 7:4, 8:19, 11:16, 11:28, 13:3, 13:7, 13:14, 17:3, 18:20, 28:14, 28:36, 28:64, 29:25, 30:17, 31: 16, 31:18, 31:20). Yahweh rules over the other gods (Ex 18:11, Deut 7:10) which is also recognized in the other terms used to identify Him, such as El Elyon, The most High God. (by implication, that means there are other lesser gods).

Deuteronomy 32:17

17 They sacrificed to demons (sheddim), not God (Eloah) - gods (elohim) they had not known, gods (elohim) that recently appeared, gods (elohim) your fathers did not fear.

These are the Princes and the the principalities are the divisions of the Earth into regions they control and rule. They all serve Satan and his goals, which is the total destruction of mankind and humanites permanent removal from the Rulership and Stewardship of Earth.

What changed since they were assigned to rule and guide humanity?

They became corrupt and were convinced by Satans arguments against Gods plan and purpose for humanity.

We find evidence of this in Pslam 82.

1 God has taken his place in the divine council;

in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

2 “How long will you judge unjustly

and show partiality to the wicked? Selah

3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;

maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.

4 Rescue the weak and the needy;

deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,

they walk about in darkness;

all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 I said, “You are gods,

sons of the Most High, all of you;

7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,

and fall like any prince.”

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;

for you shall inherit all the nations

Edited by Jor-el

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Truly?

Since your statement has no corroboration at all except a denial of acceptance, I cannot give it credence.

Well, then, lets give you something to work with.

The common Greek word for demon (daimon) occurs only once in the Christian Scriptures. At Matthew 8:31: So the demons began to entreat him, saying: "If you expel us, send us forth into the herd of swine." Elsewhere the Greek daimonion is used, or pneuma, the Greek word for spirit is applied to spirit creatures. (Matthew 8:16) These spirit creatures are referred to with such terms as wicked, unclean, speechless and deaf. (Lu 7:21; Matthew 10:1 / Mark 9:17, 25) Satan is the ruler of the Demons. (Matthew 12:24, 26) The angels who forsook their natural position of spirit creatures, mating with human women and producing the Nephilim, were demons. Their human bodies would have drowned so they dematerialized and returned to heaven where they are kept in a condition of debasement. (Genesis 6:1-4 / Jude 1:6 / 1 Peter 3:19-20 / 2 Peter 2:4 / Ephesians 6:11-12) These demons appear elsewhere in possessions. (Matthew 12:43-45 / Luke 8:27-33)

Demons are spirit creatures.

Edited by David Henson

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Demon comes from Greek Daemon. This is a demigod. Demons are not good or evil, they are simply supernatural creatures who occupy a place between mortals and the gods. It suited early Christians, as part of their propaganda and "demonising" of the old religions, to cast demons as agents of the non existant satan. Rather in the way they twisted everything about the god Pan to make him seem a devil. It is this warped image of Pan that forms many peoples idea of what devil looks like, yet it is simply Christian nonsense. There are no demons that are evil creatures from Hell, they are forces of nature that our distant ancestors saw as supernatural beings. Sleep soundly, for there is nothing lurking in the shadows except that created by your own imagination.

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A sign of a troubled mind.

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Well, then, lets give you something to work with.

The common Greek word for demon (daimon) occurs only once in the Christian Scriptures. At Matthew 8:31: So the demons began to entreat him, saying: "If you expel us, send us forth into the herd of swine." Elsewhere the Greek daimonion is used, or pneuma, the Greek word for spirit is applied to spirit creatures. (Matthew 8:16) These spirit creatures are referred to with such terms as wicked, unclean, speechless and deaf. (Lu 7:21; Matthew 10:1 / Mark 9:17, 25) Satan is the ruler of the Demons. (Matthew 12:24, 26) The angels who forsook their natural position of spirit creatures, mating with human women and producing the Nephilim, were demons. Their human bodies would have drowned so they dematerialized and returned to heaven where they are kept in a condition of debasement. (Genesis 6:1-4 / Jude 1:6 / 1 Peter 3:19-20 / 2 Peter 2:4 / Ephesians 6:11-12) These demons appear elsewhere in possessions. (Matthew 12:43-45 / Luke 8:27-33)

Demons are spirit creatures.

Thank you for your response.

Demon appears more than once in the scriptures...

Besides Matthew 8:31, the word daimon also appears in Mark 5:12, Luke 8:29, Revelation 16:14 and Revelation 18:2. As you say, daimonion is also used to refer to the same beings.

The use of the term pneuma, as you rightly put it demonstrates that they are spirit beings, just like the Holy Spirit is also referred to as hagios pneuma, no one denies that and that is not a point of contention the term is used of angels, of God, of demons. All beings who inhabit the spiritual world are called spirits and equally, the Hebrew equivalent of an inhabitant of the spirit world is called an "elohim". Neither is it a point of contention the fact that Satan is the prince of demons, but what is contended is that those demons are fallen angels.

The angels who forsook their natural position of spirit creatures, mating with human women and producing the Nephilim, were demons. Their human bodies would have drowned so they dematerialized and returned to heaven where they are kept in a condition of debasement.

The point is that there is not a single verse that says so, anywhere at all, not even the ones you are quoting.

I previously went into more detail regarding most of the selected verses you quote, I stand by what I said there in each of them. There is no link between fallen angels and demons, the bible is expressly clear in making the distinction, so much so that even those angels who sided with Satan continue to be referred to as angels, never once are they called demons anywhere.

Their human bodies would have drowned so they dematerialized and returned to heaven where they are kept in a condition of debasement.

Incorrect, they are held in a place referred to as Tartarus or "The Abyss". They did not return to heaven. Tartarus (The Abyss) is also called Gehenna in Hebrew, it is a place where the unsaved go, to await their judgement. It is called "the burning place" in Isaiah. It is also telling that Tartarus, is the exact same place (not by coincidence) where the Titans are said to have been imprisoned by Zeus in the War of the Titans.

As a matter of fact the link is more than evident to scholars The fallen angels who sinned and forsook their rightful place in the spirit world are called angels but the bible is clear on that as well, they are NOT angels, they are "sons of God", bene elohim and they were considered Gods who fathered a generation of demi-gods, we call the Nephilim. The stories are linked and undeniable.

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Demon comes from Greek Daemon. This is a demigod. Demons are not good or evil, they are simply supernatural creatures who occupy a place between mortals and the gods. It suited early Christians, as part of their propaganda and "demonising" of the old religions, to cast demons as agents of the non existant satan. Rather in the way they twisted everything about the god Pan to make him seem a devil. It is this warped image of Pan that forms many peoples idea of what devil looks like, yet it is simply Christian nonsense. There are no demons that are evil creatures from Hell, they are forces of nature that our distant ancestors saw as supernatural beings. Sleep soundly, for there is nothing lurking in the shadows except that created by your own imagination.

Christians didn't come up with this, they inherited their beliefs from the Jews, who did not view it your way either, Even the ancient Babylonians, the authors of Necromancy distinguished between good spirits and bad spirits and had spells to ward of demons, much of which has been twisted over the ages into the famous imagery of the pentagram of modern day Satansim. So I apologize upfront and say, I cannot accept your view, conflicts with too much that is known.

Edited by Jor-el

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There's an island word "aniti", which is translated to "evil spirits", brought by the Spanish Catholic explorers. There is no equivalent word for "good spirits", and per the Catholics, any spirit is a bad spirit. Which notion surprised the indigenous people, because they hadn't had any negative experiences with the island spirits. So I'm wondering if the word "demon" has a similar history, that the meaning of the word was re-defined in the past by people who had an agenda and the power to enforce it. FYI, I personally find bible references to be the least powerful, because the early church, IMHO, definitely had an agenda and bias which become incorporated into the ideology and language of the church.

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Because that is one of the very greatest assumptions christianity ever made in reading the bible, nowhere does it say or imply this, but that is exactly what christianity teaches.

I've been a Christian all my life, and am the son of a Methodist minister. Not once in my life have I ever heard my father preach what you're claiming. I think maybe you're drawing a broad assumption yourself in saying that's what Christians believe and teach.

I certainly don't believe it.

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Thank you for your response.

Demon appears more than once in the scriptures...

Besides Matthew 8:31, the word daimon also appears in Mark 5:12, Luke 8:29, Revelation 16:14 and Revelation 18:2. As you say, daimonion is also used to refer to the same beings.

Daimon doesn't appear at Mark 5:12, Luke 8:29 the word daimoniou is used. At Revelation 16:14 and Revelation 18:2 daimonion is used.

The use of the term pneuma, as you rightly put it demonstrates that they are spirit beings, just like the Holy Spirit is also referred to as hagios pneuma, no one denies that and that is not a point of contention the term is used of angels, of God, of demons. All beings who inhabit the spiritual world are called spirits and equally, the Hebrew equivalent of an inhabitant of the spirit world is called an "elohim". Neither is it a point of contention the fact that Satan is the prince of demons, but what is contended is that those demons are fallen angels.

Elohim is a term applied to gods, meaning be strong, plural of elohah (god). It is used in reference to Jehovah, angels, idol gods and men. Angels at Psalm 8:5, Dagon at 1 Samuel 5:7, the goddess Ashtoreth at Daniel 1:2, the human judges at Psalm 82:1, 6, quoted by Jesus at John 10:34, 35. Earlier I said your OP was wrong because you said "Let me put it to you that demons are not fallen angels, as a matter of fact they aren't angels of any sort and never were." An angel is a spirit being serving as a messenger for God. When the Hebrew malakh or the Greek aggelos are applied to spirit beings the word angel is used, when they are applied to men the word messenger is used.

The point is that there is not a single verse that says so, anywhere at all, not even the ones you are quoting.

That the angels are fallen angels? I suppose that would depend upon what you mean by angels, and like I pointed out, you said angels of any kind.

I previously went into more detail regarding most of the selected verses you quote, I stand by what I said there in each of them. There is no link between fallen angels and demons, the bible is expressly clear in making the distinction, so much so that even those angels who sided with Satan continue to be referred to as angels, never once are they called demons anywhere.

But that is what a demon is. The Bible doesn't need to refer to them in every instance as such, but that is what they are. I don't see any reason you should conclude otherwise.

Incorrect, they are held in a place referred to as Tartarus or "The Abyss". They did not return to heaven. Tartarus (The Abyss) is also called Gehenna in Hebrew, it is a place where the unsaved go, to await their judgement. It is called "the burning place" in Isaiah. It is also telling that Tartarus, is the exact same place (not by coincidence) where the Titans are said to have been imprisoned by Zeus in the War of the Titans.

As a matter of fact the link is more than evident to scholars The fallen angels who sinned and forsook their rightful place in the spirit world are called angels but the bible is clear on that as well, they are NOT angels, they are "sons of God", bene elohim and they were considered Gods who fathered a generation of demi-gods, we call the Nephilim. The stories are linked and undeniable.

Ah! Now I get what you are saying! Okay. First, Tartarus and The Abyss and Gehenna are not the same. Gehenna is Greek, not Hebrew. Actually it is a transliteration of the Hebrew Geh Hinnom, the Valley of Hinnom. Here is a picture of it.

gehenna.gif

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Sorry, I had to end that post abruptly in order to restart my computer. Lets continue.

Incorrect, they are held in a place referred to as Tartarus or "The Abyss". They did not return to heaven. Tartarus (The Abyss) is also called Gehenna in Hebrew, it is a place where the unsaved go, to await their judgement. It is called "the burning place" in Isaiah. It is also telling that Tartarus, is the exact same place (not by coincidence) where the Titans are said to have been imprisoned by Zeus in the War of the Titans.

As a matter of fact the link is more than evident to scholars The fallen angels who sinned and forsook their rightful place in the spirit world are called angels but the bible is clear on that as well, they are NOT angels, they are "sons of God", bene elohim and they were considered Gods who fathered a generation of demi-gods, we call the Nephilim. The stories are linked and undeniable.

Tartarus is a Greek word that means "the lowest place." In some pre-Christian mythologies, such as Homer's Iliad tartarus is a literal place that is 'as far below Hades as earth is below heaven.' Lesser gods like Cronus and Titan spirits were imprisoned there. But in the Bible it refers to a condition rather than a literal place. The angels who forsook their place as spirit creatures and became human to mate with human women are kept in a condition of debasement in heaven. The scriptures I gave you indicate this. (Jude 1:6 / 1 Peter 3:18-20 / 2 Peter 2:4 / Ephesians 6:10-12) The word tartarus is only found in scripture at 2 Peter 2:4, and is sometimes mistranslated as hell.

It shouldn't be confused with the abyss, because those disobedient angels later asked Jesus not to send them to the abyss. (Luke 8:26-31) At Revelation 20:1-3 it is made clear that these angels are not to be put into the abyss until Christ begins his rule, in fact during that thousand years.

Gehenna is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew Geh Hinnom, which is the modern day Wadi er-Rababi (Ge Ben Hinnom) a valley S and SW of ancient Jerusalem. (Joshua 15:8; 18:16 / Jeremiah 19:2, 6) It was a place where the unfaithful Israelites sacrificed children to fire to Baal. This during Ahaz and Manasseh's rule. Prophetically, faithful King Josiah defiled the place by turning it into a refuse dump. Sulfur, which was abundant in the area was used to keep the refuse, including the corpses of animals and criminals who were not thought to be worthy of resurrection were thrown. (2 Chronicles 28:1, 3; 33:1, 6 / Jeremiah 7:31, 32; 32:35 / 2 Kings 23:10) In Jesus' day it was known as such, and so was a representation of spiritual death, with no resurrection. That's how Jesus used it in illustration. Gehenna is also often mistranslated as hell.

I agree that bene elohim are the sons of God, but that isn't saying anything. All spirit creatures were.

Edited by David Henson

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I would have said that Demons were fallen angels?? At least a unix process ;-)

Question: "What does the Bible say about demons?"

Answer: Revelation 12:9 is the clearest scripture on the identity of demons, "The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him." Satan's fall from heaven is symbolically described in Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:12-15. Revelation 12:4 seems to indicate that Satan took one-third of the angels with him when he sinned. Jude 6 mentions angels who sinned. The Bible indicates that the demons are fallen angels who, along with Satan, rebelled against God.

There is some confusion regarding Isaiah 14:12-15 due to the Latin word Lucifer being translated from the Hebrew hehlel (shinning one) (Greek ho heosphoros which means "the bringer of the dawn [or morning]") The Latin lucifer means "light bearer." Though often thought so, it isn't in reference to any spirit beings, it is in reference to Nebuchadnezzar, the King of Babylon. Look back a few verses to Isaiah 14:4. The reason for this is that Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and ended the Kingdom. Prophecy said the next King would be Christ. This meant that in a figurative sense Nebuchadnezzar was like Venus, or the "morning star" that is the last and brightest star just before a new day. It was figuratively a new day because of all the changes. This period of time was known as the "age of the gentile." Likewise, Jesus was referred to as a "morning star" or "daystar." (2 Peter 1:19 / Revelation 2:26-28; 22:16)

Ezekiel 28:12-15 is an interesting passage. It compares the king of Tyre with the angel, or spirit being who was given the responsibility to protect the newly created couple in the garden of Eden, who was the most beautiful of angels, and who sinned and became known as Satan the Devil. (The word satan means resistor or adversary and the word devil means deceiver.

Satan and his demons now look to destroy and deceive all those who follow and worship God (1 Peter 5:8; 2 Corinthians 11:14-15). The demons are described as evil spirits (Matthew 10:1), unclean spirits (Mark 1:27), and angels of Satan (Revelation 12:9). Satan and his demons deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4), attack Christians (2 Corinthians 12:7; 1 Peter 5:8), and combat the holy angels (Revelation 12:4-9). Demons are spiritual beings, but they can appear in physical forms (2 Corinthians 11:14-15). The demons/fallen angels are enemies of God, but they are defeated enemies. Greater is He who is in us, than those who are in the world (1 John 4:4).

First you say the demons were not fallen angels, not angels at all and here you say they are. Which is it? I pretty much agree with all of the quote directly above but can't understand the contradiction.

So either you are wrong or we're just not understanding what you are getting at?? Now I suppose that there are other creatures that are not angels and were followers of Lucifer. The Angel being the highest of heavenly hosts. There could be other minions and sub creatures and perhaps those are the demons you are referring to??

No . . . there are spirit creatures, often called angels, some of whom sinned by being disobedient. Those are sometimes called fallen angels because they are cast out of heaven eventually. See my response to the Skeptic's Annotated Bible Revelation chapters 1-22.

Edited by David Henson

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All these talk of demons led to do a little research about them on the internet. It wasn't easy to find some scholarly work about the topic, but I finally found some extensive material at the online Encyclopedia Britannica. It was very interesting, and some of the reference are pre-Christian. Here's one piece of information I found interesting: According to some authorities in the 20th century (as well as early Christian polemicists), the alleged demons noted by the prevailing religions of the world are the former gods or spiritual beings that succumbed to or were overpowered by the dominant doctrinal views of a conquering people. Demons were not originally perceived as evil or Satan's minions, but eventually that became the prevailing majority opinion. Again, from the encyclopedia: Though it has commonly been associated with an[/url]evil or malevolent spirit, the term originally meant a spiritual being that influenced a person’s character. I guess like many things, our understanding, teachings, and perceptions of demons and angels has changed significantly throughout the centuries.

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All these talk of demons led to do a little research about them on the internet. It wasn't easy to find some scholarly work about the topic, but I finally found some extensive material at the online Encyclopedia Britannica. It was very interesting, and some of the reference are pre-Christian. Here's one piece of information I found interesting: According to some authorities in the 20th century (as well as early Christian polemicists), the alleged demons noted by the prevailing religions of the world are the former gods or spiritual beings that succumbed to or were overpowered by the dominant doctrinal views of a conquering people. Demons were not originally perceived as evil or Satan's minions, but eventually that became the prevailing majority opinion. Again, from the encyclopedia: Though it has commonly been associated with anevil or malevolent spirit, the term originally meant a spiritual being that influenced a person’s character. I guess like many things, our understanding, teachings, and perceptions of demons and angels has changed significantly throughout the centuries.

Interesting, Beany. What I think is that the more things change the more they stay the same. That expression never made sense to me, but what I mean is that, God's angels are not supposed to interfere with human affairs unless directed by God himself. However, the disobedient ones do and have since before the flood. The apostle Paul used the Greek word pharmakia, which means druggery and is where our word pharmacy comes from. It is translated at Galatians 5:20 as "spiritism."

Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 4, pp. 51, 52) says of the word: “(Eng., pharmacy etc.) primarily signified the use of medicine, drugs, spells; then, poisoning; then, sorcery, Gal. 5:20, R.V., ‘sorcery’ (A.V., ‘witchcraft’), mentioned as one of ‘the works of the flesh.’ See also Rev. 9:21; 18:23. In the Sept[uagint], Ex. 7:11, 22; 8:7, 18; Isa. 47:9, 12. In sorcery, the use of drugs, whether simple or potent, was generally accompanied by incantations and appeals to occult powers, with the provision of various charms, amulets, etc., professedly designed to keep the applicant or patient from the attention and power of demons, but actually to impress the applicant with the mysterious resources and powers of the sorcerer.”

Primitive people use drugs to gain access to the "spirit world." Demons take advantage of this by interfering with human affairs. These are often thought of as good, for example, the fortune telling girl in Acts who predicted things for local businessmen who wanted to kill the apostle Paul for casting the demon out of the girl.

Edited by David Henson

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Christians didn't come up with this, they inherited their beliefs from the Jews, who did not view it your way either, Even the ancient Babylonians, the authors of Necromancy distinguished between good spirits and bad spirits and had spells to ward of demons, much of which has been twisted over the ages into the famous imagery of the pentagram of modern day Satansim. So I apologize upfront and say, I cannot accept your view, conflicts with too much that is known.

Well, I do not go in for long and convoluted posts with lots of quotes from this holy book or that, and I am not so pedantic to qualify everything I write. I think the general point of my post is that the Abrahamic religions have twisted the the old beliefs and have deliberately demonised anything that was pagan. This is simply a matter of "spin" for propaganda purposes. There is nothing that modern politicians do that was not done in the past. Unfortunately, because this topic is in the religious realm, then irrational thinking warps reality. Nobody likes to think their religion is based on myths and that the founders of that religion acted like worst kind of agitprop liers back in the days. There is a tendency to see these old relgious texts and ancient myths as some sort of reality, and as such people argue about this or that meaning or whatever, or quote chapter this or verse that, yet all is a heap of nonsense from our imagination.

As a general point, after reading Gulliver's Travels, and watching Life of Brian and Meaning of Life, I can never take any organised religion seriously again. One man's demon is anothers angel, there is no meeting point between the two positions, only counting angels, or demons, dancing on head of pin for eternity

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri

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Well, I do not go in for long and convoluted posts with lots of quotes from this holy book or that, and I am not so pedantic to qualify everything I write. I think the general point of my post is that the Abrahamic religions have twisted the the old beliefs and have deliberately demonised anything that was pagan. This is simply a matter of "spin" for propaganda purposes. There is nothing that modern politicians do that was not done in the past. Unfortunately, because this topic is in the religious realm, then irrational thinking warps reality. Nobody likes to think their religion is based on myths and that the founders of that religion acted like worst kind of agitprop liers back in the days. There is a tendency to see these old relgious texts and ancient myths as some sort of reality, and as such people argue about this or that meaning or whatever, or quote chapter this or verse that, yet all is a heap of nonsense from our imagination.

As a general point, after reading Gulliver's Travels, and watching Life of Brian and Meaning of Life, I can never take any organised religion seriously again. One man's demon is anothers angel, there is no meeting point between the two positions, only counting angels, or demons, dancing on head of pin for eternity

I think this quote from the encyclopedia bears out your thinking: According to some authorities in the 20th century (as well as early Christian polemicists), the alleged demons noted by the prevailing religions of the world are the former gods or spiritual beings that succumbed to or were overpowered by the dominant doctrinal views of a conquering people. I don't believe in occult powers, myself, just the informed, intelligent energy that powers the universe, so my worldview is different from that of those whose belief systems are based on a tripartite divinity. What prompted me to do a little research about demons was that most of the posts referenced Christianity, as if the genesis of demons were no earlier than the Christian religion. I know from reading about the history of Christianity that when the religion moved out into the countryside it incorporated many pagan beliefs, so that Christianity would be more familiar and more acceptable to the common folk, and some of these pagan concepts eventually became corrupted and reinterpreted by the "authorities".

For me, Christianity, and indeed any religion, makes more sense when placed in historical context, whereas an argument or claim or hypothesis that ignores the historical context often seems to me to be incomplete. It seems to be in my nature to look at the holes, what's not there, the gaps, because that's where I usually find the ideas that interest me. It must be some kind of natural perversity that compels me to pay attention to what's not being said!

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The modern mind is arrogant to the extreme, I am an example of it. Demons could exist, life forms different than us, non material as far as we can see and perhaps evil. Why not? It is kind of crazy that anything exist at all. We are not that intelligent and our limitation imposed on us by our sense are extreme and they limit us. Religion could be another way to acess that reality. In the end, I find it doubtful, but again I am an arrogant SOB :alien:

:su doug :st

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I've been a Christian all my life, and am the son of a Methodist minister. Not once in my life have I ever heard my father preach what you're claiming. I think maybe you're drawing a broad assumption yourself in saying that's what Christians believe and teach.

I certainly don't believe it.

I am not surprised, my own christian brothers who are closed off in their churches, whatever denomination they may be from, certainly do not teach this anywhere, most of them continue to believe as you and most others certainly do. It is all the church teaches in regards to demons.

You don't find many Pastors, or Ministers of the word of God giving in depth lessons on demonology after all, I needed to get to Bible School and later on University before a number of things became apparant in all the misdirection and assumptions being made by most christians.

It's not as if there is a conspiracy hiding this information, most christians simply ignore it and see it as a waste of time studying this.

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I am not surprised, my own christian brothers who are closed off in their churches,

You don't find many Pastors, or Ministers of the word of God giving in depth lessons on demonology after all,

Hi Jor-el,

Are Seraphim "angels" dragons?

Peace.

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Daimon doesn't appear at Mark 5:12, Luke 8:29 the word daimoniou is used. At Revelation 16:14 and Revelation 18:2 daimonion is used.

Well that is NOT what the Greek Majority text states...

Please follow the link: Blue Letter Bible - Strong's G1142 - daimōn

If you have an argument with that take it up with the bible itself.

Elohim is a term applied to gods, meaning be strong, plural of elohah (god). It is used in reference to Jehovah, angels, idol gods and men. Angels at Psalm 8:5, Dagon at 1 Samuel 5:7, the goddess Ashtoreth at Daniel 1:2, the human judges at Psalm 82:1, 6, quoted by Jesus at John 10:34, 35.

And it is also a term that means "inhabitant of the spirit world". There is no ther way to define it after evidencing the multiple ways inwhich the term is used.

Earlier I said your OP was wrong because you said "Let me put it to you that demons are not fallen angels, as a matter of fact they aren't angels of any sort and never were." An angel is a spirit being serving as a messenger for God. When the Hebrew malakh or the Greek aggelos are applied to spirit beings the word angel is used, when they are applied to men the word messenger is used.

So you think these terms are not species specific fpr lack of a better way of putting it?

The term angel and malakh are exactly the same in concept because they refer to exactly the same type of being, what one cannot do is call a demon an angel or an angel a demon, these terms are NOT synonynous. Each term is specific and means a specific thing and a specific type of being. Just because we have a number of four legged animals out there, doesn't mean we can call them all cats.

That the angels are fallen angels? I suppose that would depend upon what you mean by angels, and like I pointed out, you said angels of any kind.

Because you are using the term angels as a blanket term and demons as another blanket term, not recognizing that blanket terms lead to error as it has done for centuries in the christian church.

But that is what a demon is. The Bible doesn't need to refer to them in every instance as such, but that is what they are. I don't see any reason you should conclude otherwise.

It actually never refers to them as anything else because they are not anything else. The bible is specific here, when it says angel it means angel, when it says demon it means demon, NOT ONCE do you find the terms being mixed up as if they mean the same thing, not once do you find angels, even those that have fallen as being referred to in any other way. You will NEVER find a verse that states or even implies that a fallen angel is a demon. Not even Satan is called a demon, not once, He is called the Prince of Demons, in other words, he rules them, it doesn't mean he is one of them. That is the assumption, it is the assumption you are making it is the assumption most people make and tradition lends its wheight to it because nobody has bothered to see it in any other way until its pointed out.

Ah! Now I get what you are saying! Okay. First, Tartarus and The Abyss and Gehenna are not the same. Gehenna is Greek, not Hebrew. Actually it is a transliteration of the Hebrew Geh Hinnom, the Valley of Hinnom. Here is a picture of it.

I suppose I should make this clearer...

Sheol is the same as Hades - It is the abode of the dead, the place of all departed spirits saved and unsaved.

Tartarus is a specific location within Hades (Sheol), it is most often referred to as a pit or an abyss, the deepest place within Hades another reference calls it "a bottomless pit".

Gehenna is also a specific place within Hades (Sheol), it where the lost suffer as can be seen in Luke 16:19-31.

Paradise (also known as the bosom of Abraham, although some don't accept this) is also a place within Hades (Sheol), it is also once again referenced in the same scripture above.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_Abraham

The link actually explains all this as well, so in a way it is corroboration of what I wrote here.

In my earlier post I quite clearly linked the fallen angels who were imprisoned in Tartarus with the ancient Titans who were likewise imprisoned in this place, the two concepts are actually linked purposefully by the author in the bible.

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Tartarus is a Greek word that means "the lowest place." In some pre-Christian mythologies, such as Homer's Iliad tartarus is a literal place that is 'as far below Hades as earth is below heaven.' Lesser gods like Cronus and Titan spirits were imprisoned there. But in the Bible it refers to a condition rather than a literal place. The angels who forsook their place as spirit creatures and became human to mate with human women are kept in a condition of debasement in heaven. The scriptures I gave you indicate this. (Jude 1:6 / 1 Peter 3:18-20 / 2 Peter 2:4 / Ephesians 6:10-12) The word tartarus is only found in scripture at 2 Peter 2:4, and is sometimes mistranslated as hell.

I agree wit all you said except for the highlighted section in red. None and I mean none of the verses you quote say anything of these angels being anywhere in heaven can you explain your reasoning and where you get that particular view from. 2 Peter 2:4 actually conrtradicts it placing them in Tartarus.

I'll quote the YLT here...

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

2 Peter 2:4

4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,

It shouldn't be confused with the abyss, because those disobedient angels later asked Jesus not to send them to the abyss. (Luke 8:26-31) At Revelation 20:1-3 it is made clear that these angels are not to be put into the abyss until Christ begins his rule, in fact during that thousand years.

Revelation 20:1-3 says no such thing. It says that Satan was bound and imprisoned there for a 1000 years. It cannot be used as a defence for claiming that the abyss is a different place to Tartarus since conceptually both Tartarus and "The Abyss" mean the same thing. In other words they are synonomous and are used as such within the bible.

Gehenna is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew Geh Hinnom, which is the modern day Wadi er-Rababi (Ge Ben Hinnom) a valley S and SW of ancient Jerusalem. (Joshua 15:8; 18:16 / Jeremiah 19:2, 6) It was a place where the unfaithful Israelites sacrificed children to fire to Baal. This during Ahaz and Manasseh's rule. Prophetically, faithful King Josiah defiled the place by turning it into a refuse dump. Sulfur, which was abundant in the area was used to keep the refuse, including the corpses of animals and criminals who were not thought to be worthy of resurrection were thrown. (2 Chronicles 28:1, 3; 33:1, 6 / Jeremiah 7:31, 32; 32:35 / 2 Kings 23:10) In Jesus' day it was known as such, and so was a representation of spiritual death, with no resurrection. That's how Jesus used it in illustration. Gehenna is also often mistranslated as hell.

And that is the origin of the word, but it is used as the place of punishment in Judaism.

That is why it is so often erronously translated as hell.

I agree that bene elohim are the sons of God, but that isn't saying anything. All spirit creatures were.

But that is not what the term means. The term refers to literal "sons of God", the ancient gods of the world. Israel did not believe in what it did in isolation, it is part of a much larger belief system and shares it cosmological model with the entire Near Middle East. As such we find references within the bible to this cosmological system and its beliefs. This one is quite apparant in other places as well such as Ugarit.

I hope you are familiar with this. If not go HERE for an explanation.

The Ugaritic texts demonstrate that El, had 70 sons, the "sons of El", were also the "sons of God". It is interesting that there are 70 Principalites on Earth, and that the Gods of the nations numbered 70 as well.

Edited by Jor-el

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There is some confusion regarding Isaiah 14:12-15 due to the Latin word Lucifer being translated from the Hebrew hehlel (shinning one) (Greek ho heosphoros which means "the bringer of the dawn [or morning]") The Latin lucifer means "light bearer." Though often thought so, it isn't in reference to any spirit beings, it is in reference to Nebuchadnezzar, the King of Babylon. Look back a few verses to Isaiah 14:4. The reason for this is that Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and ended the Kingdom. Prophecy said the next King would be Christ. This meant that in a figurative sense Nebuchadnezzar was like Venus, or the "morning star" that is the last and brightest star just before a new day. It was figuratively a new day because of all the changes. This period of time was known as the "age of the gentile." Likewise, Jesus was referred to as a "morning star" or "daystar." (2 Peter 1:19 / Revelation 2:26-28; 22:16)

Ezekiel 28:12-15 is an interesting passage. It compares the king of Tyre with the angel, or spirit being who was given the responsibility to protect the newly created couple in the garden of Eden, who was the most beautiful of angels, and who sinned and became known as Satan the Devil. (The word satan means resistor or adversary and the word devil means deceiver.

First you say the demons were not fallen angels, not angels at all and here you say they are. Which is it? I pretty much agree with all of the quote directly above but can't understand the contradiction.

No . . . there are spirit creatures, often called angels, some of whom sinned by being disobedient. Those are sometimes called fallen angels because they are cast out of heaven eventually. See my response to the Skeptic's Annotated Bible Revelation chapters 1-22.

Hmmm, David, this was not my post, It was posted by RavenHawk..

Edited by Jor-el

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