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Jor-el

Demons, what are they?

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Now there is a second theory which is not universally shared by theologians and indeed may have led to an attempt to ban a book from the Biblical canon. In Genesis 6 we have a couple of names/titles of interest:

In any case, the question about who/what are demons may come down to this: The Nephilim, as described in Enoch, were gigantic beings and terrible. And their angel fathers taught men about weapons of war, drugs and other things of evil. They, along with all but eight members of the human race were destroyed in the Biblical Flood. Their spirits, which are neither spirits of men nor of angels, are perhaps the spirits that the Bible calls demons, roaming the earth and finding no rest, with a hatred for both mankind and God.

Whichever of these comes closest to the truth about demons, Jesus, the second Person of the Trinity and God Himself, did not doubt the existence of demons, and confronted them on several occasions in the Gospels. They knew who He was and He in turn would not let them speak concerning Himself. He had complete authority over them and they begged Him not to send them to "the pit", perhaps a reference to the place where the angel were imprisoned. If one is a follower of Jesus as God Incarnate, then one must acknowledge that He would know the truth about the existence of these entities.

Thank you Sundew,

Personally this is my view as well, the other initial view you mention is by far the more prevalent but it is also not biblical, having been created by the church in the centuries after Jesus.

The book of Enoch was once held in high regard by the church even though it was never considered to be canonical, everyone knew that it was a story created in ancient times, but what it did was use the current theological beliefs of the day to put forward a story. As such it is an accurate reflection of what ancient people believed.

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And yet most religion extremes come from the extreme right. Just as this demon crap is used to force people to believe through fear of something not even real.

It is interesting that this only applies to the USA, the left is the more traditional christian stance everywhere else.

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We can only really explain them within the religious context, all other contexts reject their existence remember?

I don't consider myself a religious person and I'm considering their existence. And there's no rules that say we can't consider possible explanations other than the religious or that the religious context/explanation is accurate. Remember the religious belief that the earth was the center of the universe and all the planets rotated around it? Copernicus paid dearly for disputing that religious idea.

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Fallen angels, your worst nightmare!

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I don't consider myself a religious person and I'm considering their existence. And there's no rules that say we can't consider possible explanations other than the religious or that the religious context/explanation is accurate. Remember the religious belief that the earth was the center of the universe and all the planets rotated around it? Copernicus paid dearly for disputing that religious idea.

Yes, but it was not a religious idea. The idea that the then religious circles believed cam e from the Ptolomic and Aristotlean view of the universe.

See: http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/retrograde/aristotle.html

It is interesting that the bible never once says or implies that this is the view it holds, the assumption must be made for the bible to say such a thing. We know that the ancients did indeed view the universe in this way, and that those who wrote the bible did so too, but not once does the bible actually portray this in any clear way. That is why it can still be applied to todays cosmological view without suffering in the least.

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They are the souls of liberal lawmakers.

A third possibility I had not considered!

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gray-demons.jpg

We've all heard about them, whether we believe in their existence or not, they are portrayed in many different forms and ways in movies, books and generally they infest our culture at an almost subliminal level. No one asks what is a demon? They simply know.

But that is actually a profound question when one thinks about it carefully. What is a Demon, Where did they come from, Did they always exist?

These are questions that are often asked by many, but the answers? They are as varied as snowflakes. So what do you think?

Let me put it to you that demons are not fallen angels, as a matter of fact they aren't angels of any sort and never were.

Splitting (psychology)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search

Splitting (also called all-or-nothing thinking in cognitive distortion) may mean two things: splitting of the mind, and splitting of mental concepts (or black and white thinking). The latter is thinking purely in extremes (e.g., goodness vs. evil, innocence vs. corruption, victimization vs. oppression, etc.), and can be seen as a developmental stage and as a defense mechanism. In psychoanalysis, there are the concepts of splitting of the self as well as splitting of the ego. This stems from existential insecurity, or instability of one's self-concept.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_%28psychology%29

Demons are real. No doubt about it to me. I've been possessed twice by one and have seen two. They had a horn on their heads and their voices sounded like that of horror. One told me that his job was to do evil to me.

I've also seen my gaurdian angel. She had wings on her back and a beautiful sounding voice. She was calling out my name when I heard her.

Couldn't have given a better example than this, the extremes of black and white, good and evi thinking, the voice of horror horns doing evil and the complete oposite, wings and beautiful sounding voice protector. Do you think it is an accident that demons seem to attack people who are in crisis or vulnerable? Believers in them are so quick to assume it is because those afflicted were weak and easy prey for demons, but I think it's much more likely to be something as described above.

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Splitting (psychology)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search

Splitting (also called all-or-nothing thinking in cognitive distortion) may mean two things: splitting of the mind, and splitting of mental concepts (or black and white thinking). The latter is thinking purely in extremes (e.g., goodness vs. evil, innocence vs. corruption, victimization vs. oppression, etc.), and can be seen as a developmental stage and as a defense mechanism. In psychoanalysis, there are the concepts of splitting of the self as well as splitting of the ego. This stems from existential insecurity, or instability of one's self-concept.

http://en.wikipedia....ng_(psychology)

Hi Chloe,

So the logical question would be, can we classify demons in shades of grey?

Are there such things as good demons? Or.. merely indifferent demons?

Edited by Jor-el

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Hi Chloe,

So the logical question would be, can we classify demons in shades of grey?

Are there such things as good demons? Or.. merely indifferent demons?

Good demons or indifferent demons, not in any sense that I've ever heard it used. Now someone may disagree what is a ghost or spirit, that could be more neutral or indifferent, but when someone comes along and classifies that ghost or spirit as a demon, I would say it's synonymous with evil or wicked, out to do harm to the person or use that person to do harm. And that's an important point to consider in what I'm saying when you look at the psychological purpose of them, what a demon does, harm the person or uses the person to harm. This is an interesting link, referring to the Bible as well, and I bolded the line that in particular addresses what I'm saying in what a demon does or how they act to go from the rank of a spirit or ghost to being referred to as a demon. I think gray or indifferent or neutral, we would call a spirit or ghost or something similar. Demon has a specific meaning as I understand it.

Demons are never described in the Bible as trying to tempt people or corrupt them; demons in the sense of demon possessed people often express faith in Christ. This is in sharp contrast to the assumption commonly made that demons are fallen angels intent on tempting people to sin- in Pentecostal churches we hear of a shopping demon, a smoking demon, a speeding demon, etc. But this simply isn't how 'demons' are referred to in the New Testament. The Bible speaks of demons as being the idols which had been built to represent them; and it is stressed that these idols and the demons supposedly behind them don't exist. And therefore "be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil", nor have they any capacity to in fact do anything (Jer. 10:3-6; Ps. 115:2-9).

Bullinger has some interesting comments upon the woman with an unclean “spirit of infirmity” (Lk. 13:11) that resulted in her being unable to lift herself up straight. “The negative is me, not ou; and is therefore subjective. She felt as if she could not do so…it appears, therefore, to have been a nervous disorder; and had to do with her pneuma” or mind (1). And yet she is described as having been 'bound by satan’. The ‘satan’ or adversary to her standing upright was her own mindset. And it was this spirit or mindset “of infirmity” from which the Lord released her. Here we clearly see the connection between ‘spirits’ and mental disorder or dysfunction; for ‘spirit’ in Scripture so often refers to the psychological mindset of a person.

For what it's worth, psychologists have suggested that belief in demons is rooted within the human desire to externalize our internal problems, to unload all our inner fears and anger onto some mythical creatures of our creation. I am no great fan of Freud, but some of his conclusions are at least worth referencing. He denied the literal existence of demons, but addressed the question of why people believe in them. He claimed that the belief derived "from suppressed hostile and cruel impulses. The greater part of superstition signifies fear of impending evil, and he who has frequently wished evil to others, but because of a good bringing-up, has repressed the same into the unconscious, will be particularly apt to expect punishment for such unconscious evil in the form of a misfortune threatening him from without"

http://www.realdevil.info/4-7.htm

I wanted to edit and add this, he has an excellent discussion about this, citing passages:

Demons Refer To Idols

In 1 Corinthians Paul explains why Christians should have nothing to do with idol worship or believing in such things. In Bible times people believed demons to be lesser gods who could be worshipped to stop problems coming into their lives. They therefore made models of demons, which were the same as idols, and worshipped them. This explains why Paul uses the words “demon” and “idol” almost interchangeably in his letter: “The things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons...if anyone says to you, ‘This was offered to idols,’ do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you...” (1 Cor. 10:20,28). So idols and demons are effectively the same. Notice how Paul says they sacrificed “to demons (idols) and not to God” - the demons were not God, and as there is only one God, it follows that demons have no real power at all, they are not gods. The point is really driven home in 1 Cor. 8:4: “Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol (equivalent to a demon) is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one”. An idol, or a demon, has no existence at all. There is only one true God, or power, in the world. Paul goes on (:5,6): “For even if there are so- called gods...(as there are many gods and many lords, [just as people believe in many types of demons today - one demon causing you to lose your job, another causing your wife to leave you, etc.]) yet for us [the true believers] there is only one God, the Father, of whom are all things [both good and bad, as we have seen from the earlier references]”. Gal. 4:8,9 says the same thing when translated properly. Paul challenges the Galatians: "You who were enslaved to those who were not really gods... How can you turn back again to those weak and beggarly spirits (stoicheia), whose slaves you want to be once more?" (Gal. 4:8,9). Here he parallels demonic spirits with 'gods who are not really gods'. But note how Paul argues [under Divine inspiration]- "even if there are" such demons / idols... for us there is to be only one God whom we fear and worship. This in fact is a continuation of the Psalmists' attitude. Time and again the gods / idols of the pagan nations are addressed as if they exist, but are ordered to bow down in shame before Yahweh of Israel (Ps. 29:1,2,10; 97:7). Whether they exist or not becomes irrelevant before the fact that they are powerless before the one true God- and therefore it is He whom we should fear, trusting that He alone engages with our lives for our eternal good in the end. "Yahweh is a great King above all gods" (Ps. 95:3) shows the Divine style- rather than overly stressing that the gods / idols / demons don't exist, the one true God isn't so primitive. Neither were the authors and singers of Psalm 95. The greatness of His Kingship is what's focused upon- not the demerits and non-existence of other gods. To do so would be altogether too primitive for the one true God. And likewise with the Lord's miracles- God's gracious power to save was demonstrated, this was where the focus was; and its very magnitude shows the relative non-existence of 'demons'.

Further proof that people in New Testament times believed demons to be idols or ‘gods’ is found in Acts 17:16-18; this describes how Paul preached in Athens, which was a “city given over to idols”, therefore worshipping many different idols. After hearing Paul preach the Gospel, the people said: “’He seems to be a proclaimer of foreign (i.e. new) gods (demons)’ because he preached to them Jesus and the resurrection”. So the people thought that Jesus and the resurrection were new demons or idols that were being explained to them. Paul goes on to teach the truth to these people, and in v. 22 he says: “You are very religious” (literally: devoted to demon worship). He explains how God is not present in their demons, or idols. Remember that God is the only source of power. If He is not in demons, then demons do not have any power because there is no other source of power in this universe - i.e. they do not exist.

Old Testament Demons Were Idols

Going back to the Old Testament, there is more proof that ‘demons’ are the same as idols. “They sacrificed to demons, not to God ...” (Dt. 32:17, cp. Ps. 106:37). Dt. 28:14-28,59-61 predicted that mental disease would be one of the punishments for worshipping other gods/demons. This explains the association of demons with mental illness in the New Testament. But let it be noted that the language of demons is associated with illness, not sin. We do not read of Christ casting out demons of envy, murder etc. It must also be noted that the Bible speaks of people having a demon/disease, rather than saying that demons caused the disease. It is significant that the Greek version of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) used the word ‘daimonion’ for “idol”; this is the word translated “demon” in the New Testament. "Idols" in Ps. 96:5 is translated "demons" in the Septuagint; and the Septuagint uses the same word in Is. 65:11 to describe Gad, the Syrian god / idol of fortune. Ps. 106:36-39 describes the errors of Israel and likens the idols of Canaan to demons: “They (Israel) served their idols, which became a snare to them. They even sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons, and shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan... Thus they were defiled by their own works, and played the harlot by their own deeds”.

Quite clearly demons are just another name for idols. Israel's worship of demons is described by God as worshipping their “own works... their own deeds” because their belief in demons was a result of human imagination; the idols they created were their “own works”. So those who believe in demons today are believing in things which have been imagined by men, the creation of men, rather than what God has taught us. The word used for idols literally means ‘no-things’, stressing that they have no existence in the real world, only in the minds of people who believe in them.

Dt. 32:15-24 describes just how angry God gets when His people believe in demons: Israel “scornfully esteemed the Rock of his salvation. They provoked Him to jealousy with foreign gods; with abominations they provoked Him to anger. They sacrificed to demons, not to God, to gods they did not know, ... that your fathers did not fear ... And He (God) said: ‘I will hide My face from them...for they are a perverse generation, children in whom is no faith. They have provoked Me to jealousy by what is not God; they have moved Me to anger by their foolish idols... I will heap disasters upon them”. Is. 65:3 LXX is just as clear: "[israel] burn incense on bricks to demons, which exist not". The idols of the nations, representing as they did the supposed 'demons' of the cosmos, were "vanity" because what the demons and gods they supposedly represented did not exist- they are "beings that are nothing" (1 Sam. 12:21 LXX), "a thing of nought" (Jer. 14:4).

So God describes demons as the same as foolish idols, abominations- things which are folly to believe in, which have no existence. Believing in demons shows a lack of faith in the one and only God. To put this more theologically. Paul Martinson comments upon 1 Cor. 10:19-21: "I take 'demons' to be a functional term and not substantive [i.e. referring to actual beings]. After all, Paul already denied the idols substantially ("nothing")" (1). To put it again more simply, translating from academe to lay English: If demons are another way of speaking about idols, and idols are nothing, they don't really exist, they're just hunks of wood and stone- then, demons don't exist. But all the same, there is an appropriate culture used by the Almighty in this matter.

.

http://www.realdevil.info/4-2.htm

Edited by ChloeB

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Good demons or indifferent demons, not in any sense that I've ever heard it used. Now someone may disagree what is a ghost or spirit, that could be more neutral or indifferent, but when someone comes along and classifies that ghost or spirit as a demon, I would say it's synonymous with evil or wicked, out to do harm to the person or use that person to do harm. And that's an important point to consider in what I'm saying when you look at the psychological purpose of them, what a demon does, harm the person or uses the person to harm. This is an interesting link, referring to the Bible as well, and I bolded the line that in particular addresses what I'm saying in what a demon does or how they act to go from the rank of a spirit or ghost to being referred to as a demon. I think gray or indifferent or neutral, we would call a spirit or ghost or something similar. Demon has a specific meaning as I understand it.

http://www.realdevil.info/4-7.htm

There are a number of ways to evaluate the subject, explaining it through Phychology, living it and studying from sources like the bible. Invariably the 1st denies their existence, preferring to explain the phenomenon purely from a human understanding of the mind linked to the assumption that the spiritual does not exist in any tangible form that could possibly affect us. We would call that the naturalistic view, or the purely materialistic view. The others would accept the phenomenon due to the simple fact that not everything can be explained away by phychology.

There are many people who are afflicted by demons, some of them are weak or simply going through a very tough time in their lives, others are spiritually strong but are attacked by numerous methods as well, whether personally or by situations they are confronted with. The Apostle Paul humself as was already mentioned in this thread was said to suffer from something along these lines.

I fall into the 3rd category, I study the phenomen, but have never personally lived through it. I have seen others affected by it though. My position as you well know is based on the biblical explanations (or as near to them as we can get) of what the spirit world is like. We have some ideas, but since all we can do is study the accounts of others and of what the bible says, I am left with some conclusions that would categorically place the spirit world in to the black and white of extremes.

The bible warns us repeatedly not to personally seek the spirit world on our own, that it can destroy us and lead us into confusion and error and that basically puts the thing out of bounds for all believers.

The bible does not treat demons kindly, it doesn't give them excuses and it certainly does not confuse them with ghosts or spirts of the dead. There are clear divisions within the biblical context if we look for them, They are never said to be fallen angels, they are not the spirits of the dead, they are a category apart from all of those things. They can impersonate the dead, they can change their form, they are shapeshifters, to those that have experienced them 1st hand and they have no love for humanity.

I believe them to be real, just as Satan is a real being, just as angels are real beings, just as God is real. But there are not only demons and angels out there, there are many different beings, some we can classify, others, not so much.

For the believers, staying away from the lot is wisdom indeed.

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There are a number of ways to evaluate the subject, explaining it through Phychology, living it and studying from sources like the bible. Invariably the 1st denies their existence, preferring to explain the phenomenon purely from a human understanding of the mind linked to the assumption that the spiritual does not exist in any tangible form that could possibly affect us. We would call that the naturalistic view, or the purely materialistic view. The others would accept the phenomenon due to the simple fact that not everything can be explained away by phychology.

There are many people who are afflicted by demons, some of them are weak or simply going through a very tough time in their lives, others are spiritually strong but are attacked by numerous methods as well, whether personally or by situations they are confronted with. The Apostle Paul humself as was already mentioned in this thread was said to suffer from something along these lines.

I fall into the 3rd category, I study the phenomen, but have never personally lived through it. I have seen others affected by it though. My position as you well know is based on the biblical explanations (or as near to them as we can get) of what the spirit world is like. We have some ideas, but since all we can do is study the accounts of others and of what the bible says, I am left with some conclusions that would categorically place the spirit world in to the black and white of extremes.

The bible warns us repeatedly not to personally seek the spirit world on our own, that it can destroy us and lead us into confusion and error and that basically puts the thing out of bounds for all believers.

The bible does not treat demons kindly, it doesn't give them excuses and it certainly does not confuse them with ghosts or spirts of the dead. There are clear divisions within the biblical context if we look for them, They are never said to be fallen angels, they are not the spirits of the dead, they are a category apart from all of those things. They can impersonate the dead, they can change their form, they are shapeshifters, to those that have experienced them 1st hand and they have no love for humanity.

I believe them to be real, just as Satan is a real being, just as angels are real beings, just as God is real. But there are not only demons and angels out there, there are many different beings, some we can classify, others, not so much.

For the believers, staying away from the lot is wisdom indeed.

Well, I won't try to convince they aren't real, but let me ask you a question I've wondered about. Say a clinician is interviewing a client/patient and they are obviously responding to internal stimuli of voices in their head telling them to hurt themselves or others, how would you know the difference if this is a real demon speaking to this person and this person is the only one able to hear or if the person is genuinely ill? Or is there any difference at all?

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Splitting (psychology)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search

Splitting (also called all-or-nothing thinking in cognitive distortion) may mean two things: splitting of the mind, and splitting of mental concepts (or black and white thinking). The latter is thinking purely in extremes (e.g., goodness vs. evil, innocence vs. corruption, victimization vs. oppression, etc.), and can be seen as a developmental stage and as a defense mechanism. In psychoanalysis, there are the concepts of splitting of the self as well as splitting of the ego. This stems from existential insecurity, or instability of one's self-concept.

http://en.wikipedia....ng_(psychology)

There are a number of ways to evaluate the subject, explaining it through Phychology, living it and studying from sources like the bible. Invariably the 1st denies their existence, preferring to explain the phenomenon purely from a human understanding of the mind linked to the assumption that the spiritual does not exist in any tangible form that could possibly affect us. We would call that the naturalistic view, or the purely materialistic view. The others would accept the phenomenon due to the simple fact that not everything can be explained away by phychology.

There are many people who are afflicted by demons, some of them are weak or simply going through a very tough time in their lives, others are spiritually strong but are attacked by numerous methods as well, whether personally or by situations they are confronted with. The Apostle Paul humself as was already mentioned in this thread was said to suffer from something along these lines.

I fall into the 3rd category, I study the phenomen, but have never personally lived through it. I have seen others affected by it though. My position as you well know is based on the biblical explanations (or as near to them as we can get) of what the spirit world is like. We have some ideas, but since all we can do is study the accounts of others and of what the bible says, I am left with some conclusions that would categorically place the spirit world in to the black and white of extremes.

The bible warns us repeatedly not to personally seek the spirit world on our own, that it can destroy us and lead us into confusion and error and that basically puts the thing out of bounds for all believers.

The bible does not treat demons kindly, it doesn't give them excuses and it certainly does not confuse them with ghosts or spirts of the dead. There are clear divisions within the biblical context if we look for them, They are never said to be fallen angels, they are not the spirits of the dead, they are a category apart from all of those things. They can impersonate the dead, they can change their form, they are shapeshifters, to those that have experienced them 1st hand and they have no love for humanity.

I believe them to be real, just as Satan is a real being, just as angels are real beings, just as God is real. But there are not only demons and angels out there, there are many different beings, some we can classify, others, not so much.

For the believers, staying away from the lot is wisdom indeed.

And I just wanted to highlight the similarity in our remarks there and the references in the link to the spirit or as you say spirit world being a reference to the psychological state of mind.

for ‘spirit’ in Scripture so often refers to the psychological mindset of a person.

(see reference for that quote in my post above)

Edited by ChloeB

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And I just wanted to highlight the similarity in our remarks there and the references in the link to the spirit or as you say spirit world being a reference to the psychological state of mind.

(see reference for that quote in my post above)

Except that when I use the word I am not referring to a phychological state of mind. If it simplifies matters, I will use a different word, like "dimension", we percieve the world in 3 dimensions, we live in a 3 dimensional world, but there are higher dimensions that superimpose our own, to me, when I refer to the spirit world, I refer to a higher dimension of reality as we know it, one that we cannot percieve under normal cicumstances, but is nonetheless there.

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Except that when I use the word I am not referring to a phychological state of mind. If it simplifies matters, I will use a different word, like "dimension", we percieve the world in 3 dimensions, we live in a 3 dimensional world, but there are higher dimensions that superimpose our own, to me, when I refer to the spirit world, I refer to a higher dimension of reality as we know it, one that we cannot percieve under normal cicumstances, but is nonetheless there.

I'm confused by your wording, what I'm wondering is how you distinguish that what one is perceiving is in actuality higher dimension beings and not a product of your psychological state of mind?

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Well, I won't try to convince they aren't real, but let me ask you a question I've wondered about. Say a clinician is interviewing a client/patient and they are obviously responding to internal stimuli of voices in their head telling them to hurt themselves or others, how would you know the difference if this is a real demon speaking to this person and this person is the only one able to hear or if the person is genuinely ill? Or is there any difference at all?

Yes, there are some real differences, I do not claim that all aspects of this discussion are spiritual, nor can they be all phychological, but the difference is that in many real instances of Demonic interference, the voices in the head do not exist. The intereference is in other forms, like the world actually turning against you in a very physical way, we may call these periods of extreme bad luck for lack of a better term, where a persons life crumbles around them no matter how they try to resolve the problems facing them.

Its like winning the lottery ten times in a row, but in reverse.

There are a number of types of oppression, not all are actually possession.

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I'm confused by your wording, what I'm wondering is how you distinguish that what one is perceiving is in actuality higher dimension beings and not a product of your psychological state of mind?

Well that depends on the person does it not, I for one have never seen a demon or and angel for that matter, the only experiences I ever had dealt directly with God himself, but I would say that the message always bears fruit, if it is from the correct source, self delusion does not bear fruit.

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Is belief in Ra-Horakhty, or Thor or Perun, a belief in evil? do believers in those Gods have equal "authority" with people of "the book"? I wonder who the real demons are, the old gods, or the angels of the Abrahamists.

Hi Atentutankh-pasheri,

I would think one would side with a supreme "god" who has the power to remove one from "Gehenna" (if it were to boil down to that). I ABSOLUTELY know where my allegiance lies because a (loving) "god" has rescued me from the Void, and mind you, it was worse than "Gehenna" (at least to me at that moment). It's the reason why I always say that one should REALLY know the god(s) to whom one is praying or adhering -- not just blind faith. I read this thread again because it's only appropriate to comment on your post, especially during Good Friday.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying other belief systems are "bad" or invalid. I'm merely sharing here a piece of my puzzle. From what I've gathered in my studies..., these beings (supreme god, ancient gods, demons, angels, lost souls, etc.) make sense to me because again, my experiences of the afterlife (I have died 3 times in one lifetime alone) echo these stories. There are "great" spirit beings/creatures out there...and my latter experience of the afterlife keeps me on the "right" track -- it feels "right" in my heart with no regrets, let me put it that way, enough to change me from being a kundalini meditation teacher (for many years) to a devout Christian. I would hate to find myself in the Void again, no doubt.

Peace to you, Atentutankh-pasheri.

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Posted (edited)

they are several things. Myth, psychotic manifestations, fear based manifestations in altered states, misinterpretation sponsored by people's anima, the jungian archetype of shadow. All these things mingle together actually.

Haveing looked what most people call demons square in the face and overcome them, I'm inclined on an experiential basis rather than theoretical one to say that in my opinion it's highly unlikely.

Those are your posts so obviously you did not encounter actual entities but your theoretical versions which were easy to overcome.

As do you have the option of believing or not believing in demons, There just a figment of people's imagination and until someone can throw some evidence on the table to prove they exist then thats all they will ever be.

And what would you consider evidence? I take it you are disregarding human history and want some sort of tangible spirit manifestation you could keep in the freezer?

Edited by markprice

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I would hate to find myself in the Void again

Yet that which is behind the veil, behind Ra, is also behind the primeaval chaos and before that the great void. Ra and all the old Gods are from this chaos, and we from them. We are directly linked down the vast ages. Without insults to you, the Abrahamic god is a newcomer and is not, in my opinion, any god at all. Hebrews are believers in this god, and I respect that they believe it is "God" for they (possibly) have some truth passed down from Akhenaten. Yet the other two Abrahamic religions worship man, not any god. There is no name for any of the old religions with exceptions of various cults, for instance Mithras. There was no need for any name, there is no need for any name, even Asatru is really without meaning, simply a label for convenience. Too much damage has been done these past two millenia, too many lies, too much blood has been shed for there now to be any meaningful dialogue. Your religion stole Easter, stole everything without shame. I look at the nonsense from the Vatican, or the nonsense from Anglicans, or the nonsense from protestant fundamenalists and I do not see this Christianity as anything except worship of a man. I see no love, forgiveness, compassion, charity, or anything that we are told is the sole preserve of that religion. Everytime I hear Christians talking about how kind and caring only they can be, I reach for the sick bag. This thread is about what demons are, yet it is already predicated that demons are anything that Christians are not. That is the stark reality, the reality of two millenia of propoganda.

So, braveone2u, may the rays of Aten shine on you, and as this is an English site, may you enjoy the great festival of Eostra. May your hares run fast, your bunnies multiply and your pagan choclate eggs be tasty.

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Yet that which is behind the veil, behind Ra, is also behind the primeaval chaos and before that the great void. Ra and all the old Gods are from this chaos, and we from them. We are directly linked down the vast ages. Without insults to you, the Abrahamic god is a newcomer and is not, in my opinion, any god at all. Hebrews are believers in this god, and I respect that they believe it is "God" for they (possibly) have some truth passed down from Akhenaten. Yet the other two Abrahamic religions worship man, not any god. There is no name for any of the old religions with exceptions of various cults, for instance Mithras. There was no need for any name, there is no need for any name, even Asatru is really without meaning, simply a label for convenience. Too much damage has been done these past two millenia, too many lies, too much blood has been shed for there now to be any meaningful dialogue. Your religion stole Easter, stole everything without shame. I look at the nonsense from the Vatican, or the nonsense from Anglicans, or the nonsense from protestant fundamenalists and I do not see this Christianity as anything except worship of a man. I see no love, forgiveness, compassion, charity, or anything that we are told is the sole preserve of that religion. Everytime I hear Christians talking about how kind and caring only they can be, I reach for the sick bag. This thread is about what demons are, yet it is already predicated that demons are anything that Christians are not. That is the stark reality, the reality of two millenia of propoganda.

So, braveone2u, may the rays of Aten shine on you, and as this is an English site, may you enjoy the great festival of Eostra. May your hares run fast, your bunnies multiply and your pagan choclate eggs be tasty.

In the post above yousaid the following: This thread is about what demons are, yet it is already predicated that demons are anything that Christians are not.

I am as such interested in what you think they are, you have not as far as I can see explained your view, just commented on what your isn't.

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Posted (edited)

What is a demon?

I've had a lot of contact experience with what I'd consider demonic and even I can't easily answer this question. Speaking strictly from experience and NOT from a biblical point of view, a demonic entity is like any other spirit in the afterlife, a "soul" if you like, except these souls have a very low vibration and are, as you might expect, inherently evil. Of course, evil is subjective on some levels but on deep levels, it's not. Demons typically manifest as mists or black silhouettes more than with horns and pitchforks.

Where did they come from?

They didn't come from anywhere, they have always been. Demons are dark energy beings and they cannot be where their energy will not allow them to be. For example, "like attracts like" rings very true in the afterlife. The best way to imagine it is "dimensions". Demons simply cannot see higher vibrational planes and therefore you will never hear of dark things from loved ones that come through mediums and such. Demons can however see our world in certain cases. Most demonic hauntings are centered around deep, negative emotions that have attracted them in the first place; depression or loneliness being the most common ones. Getting rid of them is pretty easy if you know what you're doing and you understand how these energies work (what I do) because all you're doing is cleansing away dark energies. No need for a priest and an exorcism (though they can help, we're doing the same job).

Let me put it to you that demons are not fallen angels, as a matter of fact they aren't angels of any sort and never were.

It's unlikely demons have ever been angelic but what they may have been is human at one point or another. I do believe in reincarnation and I do believe that your life here determines whether your energy is credited or debited, so to speak. Those who we would consider demonic entities have perhaps been through many, many lives where they chose a life of evil and darkness, over and over again (talking thousands of years here) to the point they couldn't become any lower vibrationally. Of course, that'd mean that "demonic" and "angelic" souls can be reincarnated here on Earth, something I do believe in. Once you get away from the biblical idea of both angels and demons, things start to look a lot more digestible.

You have to understand that existence is a yin-yang. Good exists, evil exists and no God is going to annihilate evil. It simply is, always has been and always will be. You only need to look at the animal kingdom and you'll see quite a spectrum of behaviour.

Just my 2 cents since it's my field :tu:

Edited by The Skater Boy

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i think demons are parts of us not outsider entities.

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Because that is one of the very greatest assumptions christianity ever made in reading the bible, nowhere does it say or imply this, but that is exactly what christianity teaches.

That isn't true. They are mentioned in revolaions. The dragon take a third of the stars with him.

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That isn't true. They are mentioned in revolaions. The dragon take a third of the stars with him.

Again, are the stars "demons"?

If you are about to say yes then could you demonstrate in the bible where an angel is ever called a demon?

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i think demons are parts of us not outsider entities.

I think this is the default position for most people. But to maintain that position you have to deny other dimensions, or say all dimensions are in your own head. Most atheists don't have a problem with that unless something happens they cannot rationalize. Then they think they are losing their mind and can actually lose their mind, but the situation has to be very extreme for that level of desperation. That level of desperation is exactly what the demonic realm thrives on, and once that realm is manifested there is no going back to denial, IMO.

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