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Jor-el

Demons, what are they?

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You can't really limit other dimensions to reflect your own comfort zone. I think that's how most horror movies begin: everything seems great...then what the hell is that!

How am i doing that?

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The beings of "Spirit" are conscious fields of electricity. They were created when the big bang happened, directly. Some, have the creatures of this dimensions best interests in mind; what could be called Angels, some do not, what could be called Demons; others have only the plants in mind; what the Wiccans and Druids call Spirits--they were created indirectly by whatever force created the Universe.

This is, of course, from my own understanding of the topic insofar as I have experienced it. I am of the belief that their corporeal forms exists in other worlds of the Multiverse.

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Posted (edited)

In other words, Demons are creatures that are immortal and are able to transcend the fabric of dimension space and time of this universe. They just do not have this realities best interests in mind. They were in the beginning, but not before the One who preceded everything; Call it God if you wish.

Edited by LocalLegend

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What they were viewed as and what they are in fact are, are two completely different things. Again I'm talking facts sweetie, not views and/or beliefs. Do you know what's facts are?

The facts are that we die, and a part of us doesn't. Call it the spirit, or call it a standing holographic wave pattern that is our consciousness. Then there are other conscious beings who may or may never have had a body and they don't like us very much.

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Hi Jor-el,

Hope you have a had a good Easter!

Interesting topic Jor-el. Just wondering from what you are saying that the 'fallen Angel's' aren't Demons, then what in your opinion is their role?

Matthew 25:41

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

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Demons run when a good man goes to war.

All i know about demons :whistle:

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Hi Jor-el,

Hope you have a had a good Easter!

Interesting topic Jor-el. Just wondering from what you are saying that the 'fallen Angel's' aren't Demons, then what in your opinion is their role?

Matthew 25:41

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

A good quote that says alot if looked at carefully.

Notice right off that neither are called demons, but that does not make these angels any less evil in Gods sight, hence the biblical expression, fallen angels.

If we had to do it another way, we could substitute demon and angel for another two words, like dolphin and whale. Each is a separate species and neither can become the other.. that doesn't mean they aren't both cetaceans.

The difference is not merely one of species I think but also of order. Demons are the interactors (with humans) but they are ruled by a higher order called principalities and another called powers.

Essentially these words allow us to form a toporaphy (map of the terrain) of a region. Just like our world has nations and Empires, so does the spirtual world, some beholden to others, some seemingly all powerful... Principalities refers to a region of influence or dominion on Earth.

Daniel 10:20-21

20 Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? But now I will return to fight against the prince of Persia; and when I go out, behold, the prince of Greece will come. 21 But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

Each nation or at least region has a prince in charge of that region, the region itself is called a principality, above this order of principalities, we have Powers who rule groups of principalities and above them all we have Satan.

The bible initially divides the entire world into 70 nations, or principalites (regions). In ancient times, these would typically be grouped into regions inhabited by specific tribes or ethnicities and does not have much to do with our concept of nations as we have it today.

So what are these fallen angels, they are the powers and the principalites of the spiritual realm. The rulers, not the footsoldiers.

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A good quote that says alot if looked at carefully.

Notice right off that neither are called demons, but that does not make these angels any less evil in Gods sight, hence the biblical expression, fallen angels.

If we had to do it another way, we could substitute demon and angel for another two words, like dolphin and whale. Each is a separate species and neither can become the other.. that doesn't mean they aren't both cetaceans.

The difference is not merely one of species I think but also of order. Demons are the interactors (with humans) but they are ruled by a higher order called principalities and another called powers.

Essentially these words allow us to form a toporaphy (map of the terrain) of a region. Just like our world has nations and Empires, so does the spirtual world, some beholden to others, some seemingly all powerful... Principalities refers to a region of influence or dominion on Earth.

Daniel 10:20-21

20 Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? But now I will return to fight against the prince of Persia; and when I go out, behold, the prince of Greece will come. 21 But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

Each nation or at least region has a prince in charge of that region, the region itself is called a principality, above this order of principalities, we have Powers who rule groups of principalities and above them all we have Satan.

The bible initially divides the entire world into 70 nations, or principalites (regions). In ancient times, these would typically be grouped into regions inhabited by specific tribes or ethnicities and does not have much to do with our concept of nations as we have it today.

So what are these fallen angels, they are the powers and the principalites of the spiritual realm. The rulers, not the footsoldiers.

Thanks Jor-el, that's very interesting. Just curious to what you would consider to be an evil spirit in the Bible? Would you say it is a Demon?

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So what are these fallen angels, they are the powers and the principalites of the spiritual realm. The rulers, not the footsoldiers.

My gut feeling tells me the devil doesn't know about his fate. I think God blinded him. Why do you think God didn't destroy them in the book of Revelation? "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

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The facts are that we die, and a part of us doesn't. Call it the spirit, or call it a standing holographic wave pattern that is our consciousness. Then there are other conscious beings who may or may never have had a body and they don't like us very much.

I agree, it is a fact that we die.

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Thanks Jor-el, that's very interesting. Just curious to what you would consider to be an evil spirit in the Bible? Would you say it is a Demon?

Yes, I could classify it as that, although some opinions might differ. Footsoldiers do the hard work.

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My gut feeling tells me the devil doesn't know about his fate. I think God blinded him. Why do you think God didn't destroy them in the book of Revelation? "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

Oh I believe he does, I would say that he was deluded until up until the crucifixion of Jesus. At that time his fate was sealed with the resurrection and that is when he found out.

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I agree, it is a fact that we die.

I have another thread called "Does the Spirit world exist?" I'm sure there you will find a number of people there who would categorically disagree with you on that being the only fact.

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Oh I believe he does, I would say that he was deluded until up until the crucifixion of Jesus. At that time his fate was sealed with the resurrection and that is when he found out.

Let's say you're right. What do you think he's doing to bypass his fate?

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Let's say you're right. What do you think he's doing to bypass his fate?

Take as many of us as he can with him.

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I have another thread called "Does the Spirit world exist?" I'm sure there you will find a number of people there who would categorically disagree with you on that being the only fact.

No, our bodies die. But, what makes us us doesn't.

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Yes, I could classify it as that, although some opinions might differ. Footsoldiers do the hard work.

The RCC see that the Greek daimon has come to mean the same as devil and means 'evil spirit or fallen angel.'

Greek daimon and daimonion, Latindaemonium)

In Scripture and in Catholic theology this word has come to mean much the same as devil and denotes one of the evil spirits or fallen angels . And in fact in some places in the New Testament where the Vulgate, in agreement with the Greek, has daemonium, our vernacular versions read devil. The precise distinction between the two terms in ecclesiastical usage may be seen in the phrase used in the decree of the Fourth Lateran Council: "Diabolus enim et alii daemones" (The devil and the other demons), i.e. all are demons, and the chief of the demons is called the devil.

Now what you are saying is very interesting if you take a look at this:

But though the word demon is now practically restricted to this sinister sense, it was otherwise with the earlier usage of the Greek writers. The word, which is apparently derived from daio "to divide" or "apportion", originally meant a divine being; it was occasionally applied to the higher gods and goddesses, but was more generally used to denote spiritual beings of a lower order coming between gods and men. For the most part these were beneficent beings, and their office was somewhat analogous to that of the angels in Christian theology. Thus the adjective eydaimon "happy", properly meant one who was guided and guarded by a good demon. Some of these Greek demons, however, were evil and malignant. Hence we have the counterpart to eudamonia "happiness", in kakodaimonia which denoted misfortune, or in its more original meaning, being under the possession of an evil demon. In the Greek of the New Testament and in the language of the early Fathers, the word was already restricted to the sinister sense, which was natural enough, now that even the higher gods of the Greekshad come to be regarded as devils.

We have a curious instance of the confusion caused by the ambiguity and variations in the meaning of the word, in the case of the celebrated "Daemon" of Socrates. This has been understood in a bad sense by some Christian writers who have made it a matter of reproach that the great Greekphilosopher was accompanied and prompted by a demon. But, as Cardinal Manning clearly shows in his paper on the subject, the word here has a very different meaning. He points to the fact that both Plato and Xenophon use the form daimonion, which Cicero rightly renders as divinum aliguid, "something divine". And after a close examination of the account of the matter given by Socrates himself in the reports transmitted by his disciples, he concludes that the promptings of the "Daemon" were the dictates of conscience, which is the voice of God

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm

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I knew you would say that. You're right. Luke 22:31, Revelation 12:12, 2 Corinthians 4:4.

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Posted (edited)

The RCC see that the Greek daimon has come to mean the same as devil and means 'evil spirit or fallen angel.'

Greek daimon and daimonion, Latindaemonium)

In Scripture and in Catholic theology this word has come to mean much the same as devil and denotes one of the evil spirits or fallen angels . And in fact in some places in the New Testament where the Vulgate, in agreement with the Greek, has daemonium, our vernacular versions read devil. The precise distinction between the two terms in ecclesiastical usage may be seen in the phrase used in the decree of the Fourth Lateran Council: "Diabolus enim et alii daemones" (The devil and the other demons), i.e. all are demons, and the chief of the demons is called the devil.

Now what you are saying is very interesting if you take a look at this:

But though the word demon is now practically restricted to this sinister sense, it was otherwise with the earlier usage of the Greek writers. The word, which is apparently derived from daio "to divide" or "apportion", originally meant a divine being; it was occasionally applied to the higher gods and goddesses, but was more generally used to denote spiritual beings of a lower order coming between gods and men. For the most part these were beneficent beings, and their office was somewhat analogous to that of the angels in Christian theology. Thus the adjective eydaimon "happy", properly meant one who was guided and guarded by a good demon. Some of these Greek demons, however, were evil and malignant. Hence we have the counterpart to eudamonia "happiness", in kakodaimonia which denoted misfortune, or in its more original meaning, being under the possession of an evil demon. In the Greek of the New Testament and in the language of the early Fathers, the word was already restricted to the sinister sense, which was natural enough, now that even the higher gods of the Greekshad come to be regarded as devils.

We have a curious instance of the confusion caused by the ambiguity and variations in the meaning of the word, in the case of the celebrated "Daemon" of Socrates. This has been understood in a bad sense by some Christian writers who have made it a matter of reproach that the great Greekphilosopher was accompanied and prompted by a demon. But, as Cardinal Manning clearly shows in his paper on the subject, the word here has a very different meaning. He points to the fact that both Plato and Xenophon use the form daimonion, which Cicero rightly renders as divinum aliguid, "something divine". And after a close examination of the account of the matter given by Socrates himself in the reports transmitted by his disciples, he concludes that the promptings of the "Daemon" were the dictates of conscience, which is the voice of God

http://www.newadvent...then/04710a.htm

I would disagree in just two small parts (highlighted in red), but that is due to a lack of textual connections between demons and these higher divine gods and them being classified as divine beings. The wiser word would be spiritual beings not divine beings.

Divinity as such belongs to the gods and to God and these were actually known by another name, the bene elohim, "the sons of God" who were never connoted with demons. Some of them would actually be classed biblically as fallen angels.

Before God actually sparated Abram from the rest of the nations, these people typically communicated with the spirtual world and had spirit guides and spirit friends, many of whom were later worshipped in the form of idols, but these are not the "gods" of the ancient world, gods like Baal, Enki, or Marduk, they were rather personal and familial gods.

An ancient Hebrew word, Shedim describes them well.

Shedim is the Hebrew word for demons. The word shedim appears only twice (always plural) in the Tanakh, at Psalm 106:37 and Deuteronomy 32:17. It was possibly a loan-word from Akkadian in which the word sedu referred to a protective, benevolent spirit. Both times the term appears in the Tanakh, it deals with child or animal sacrifice to false gods that are called demons.[3] The word may also derive from the "Sedim, Assyrian guard spirits"[4] as referenced according to lore "Azael slept with Naamah and spawned Assyrian guard spirits known as sedim".[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shedim

Edited by Jor-el

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Posted (edited)

I would disagree in just two small parts (highlighted in red), but that is due to a lack of textual connections between demons and these higher divine gods and them being classified as divine beings. The wiser word would be spiritual beings not divine beings.

Divinity as such belongs to the gods and to God and these were actually known by another name, the bene elohim, "the sons of God" who were never connoted with demons. Some of them would actually be classed biblically as fallen angels.

Thanks Jor-el, there does seem to be some ambiguity to the terms. Now you've got my head in a whirl with throwing in: 'the sons of God' being classed as 'fallen Angels'. :D Good stuff though!

oops: typo, meant ^being

Edited by Star of the Sea

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I have another thread called "Does the Spirit world exist?" I'm sure there you will find a number of people there who would categorically disagree with you on that being the only fact.

I am denying they do or do not exsist. Have you read any of my posts or are you just understanding them? Bible verses are NOT fact and either are views and beliefs. You have failed at every.attempt to give any FACTS on what demons are is all my point is. I don't know that anyone can give absolute 100% facts on what they are. You DO NOT have facts and from the sounds of it, I don't know if you know what a FACT even is. I appreciate all the info you are able to provide about views and beliefs though. Thank you.

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Posted (edited)

The following is from the top of the Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs section. Posting Guidelines:

Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs

'Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs' board guidelines Please always respect the beliefs of other members - the bashing of specific religions, countries, races or belief systems is strictly disallowed. Several of the topics in this section cover some sensitive areas and it is important to respect the views of others; this means no flaming, no flamebaiting, no trolling and no personal attacks. We must also ask that members do not use the forums to promote or 'preach' their personal spiritual beliefs to others.

The Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs board is primarily aimed at discussing general topics pertaining to religion and spirituality, for skeptic vs believer style discussion and debate on the nature of spirituality themed topics please visit the Spirituality vs Skepticism board.

Of particular note is the final paragraph - this is not for skeptic-vs-believer style debates. That doesn't mean that differences of opinion cannot happen, but continuous arguing over details detracts from the purpose of this section, so let's just take a step back and back to the topic of discussing demons

~ Paranoid Android

Edited by Paranoid Android

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I am denying they do or do not exsist. Have you read any of my posts or are you just understanding them? Bible verses are NOT fact and either are views and beliefs. You have failed at every.attempt to give any FACTS on what demons are is all my point is. I don't know that anyone can give absolute 100% facts on what they are. You DO NOT have facts and from the sounds of it, I don't know if you know what a FACT even is. I appreciate all the info you are able to provide about views and beliefs though. Thank you.

I can see your way of thinking but i also have my own.Nothing against others who have their own firm beliefs,good and bad does not only apply to christians as im sure you know.I have not seen or read many of your posts as you have only 54,with as many topics as we have on UM it is understandable.

No i do not believe the bible to be some divine book as it was written and translated several times by man,some even translated it to control the masses.It also contains stories from others far older than its own religion.

I myself as i have said energy cannot die therefore i believe some amount of consciousness could be retained in some kind of spirit form (to be determined) what a spirit form really is.My own opinion is that maybe this left over energy can become transformed or manifest itself to whatever someone gives it enough meaning to be.Almost like the old spells of a glamour or in a way like the elm street movies where it took the power of belief to make it real.

For me there are enough mysteries in time and space (being as large a time and distance frame as i can comprehend) to wrap myself up in some form of organized religion theist or atheist (yes i consider atheist most,not all) a form of organization also.I do not need any other being here to see my views if they agree or disagree.When im gone im gone one way or the other none can do a damn thing about it ;)

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No i do not believe the bible to be some divine book as it was written and translated several times by man,some even translated it to control the masses.It also contains stories from others far older than its own religion.

When im gone im gone one way or the other none can do a damn thing about it ;)

You have a point there.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

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Those are your posts so obviously you did not encounter actual entities but your theoretical versions which were easy ...

That is certainly a possibility. If there is some other sort of demon that I have never encountered, then I must concede that I cannot know about that in which I do not know about. But I'll say that my experiences cover most of what people describe as demonic experiences. People even come to me for help with their own. As of yet no powerful evil demons. On the contrary. I have learned that any entity aware enough to be so powerful must have become aware enough to rise above petty melovolance. Evil really is a biological construct built on primal instincts and control of others for some sort of gain. These motivations simply do not exist in spiritual form. Jealousy, rage, anger, subjugation, sadism etc etc... Can all be traced through evolutionary psychology and various branchings of habitual endorphin seeking. If demons exist, they must be a physical being like a powerful alien. They are not spirit beings. Spirit beings live above the chaos of physical reality. But no... I have not met them all, I have only come to understand an environment. An environment where malovolance is a fish out of water.

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