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Are Extraterrestrials Really Demons?

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I apologize. I meant to reply to your post, which was quite thoughtful. I went on a "post and reply" spree in which I quickly wrote random thoughts. Your message deserved more time.

Fair enough, I have seen so many people in here of late that run form real answers I made the wrong assumption.

You mentioned one study, and that didn't serve as a good proxy for events that took place over a wide swath of space and time.

Why not? It's done by one of the foremost group involved in this research on the planet. They know more than anyone of us about the subject in total. And more so than the clamants themselves. And much more than anyone in antiquity.

If varied people experienced the same events, independent of each other, they likely took place.

Not necessarily, many people claimed to have positively identified religious figures at the Fatima event.

This was especially true when they had no idea about the common event before they experienced it. Added to that, I believed people, who experienced paranormal events, because I trusted them. Their nonverbal communication was as convincing as their words. Some of them had no knowledge or understanding of the events before they experienced them. They had no references from which to draw ideas that might skew their interpretations of them. Experiments often are beneficial to understanding human nature, but many of them are poor substitutions for real life.

The human psyche should be more than adequate to answer the common spectre image that seems to form the basis for most evil monsters in superstition and legend? Do you know of any cases whereby physical evidence such as marking cuts or bruises accompany and corroborate any such claim? Genuine ones I mean, ones that can be attributed to an unknown procedure, like stitching with unknown silk, or some type of rapid heal evidence? Not someone waking up and going "I did not have that scratch yesterday, must be alienz".

Edited by psyche101

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No, not all of my beliefs are based on that. Like I said, I don't think that I've ever heard or seen a demon or an extraterrestrial, but I believe some people who claim to have done so. I don't believe that the two beings are the same, but I think that they exist. I'm respectful of the opinions of individuals who disagree with my personal views, though. It's fine if someone believes that demons and extraterrestrials are best left to fables and fiction. It's fine if someone believes that aliens are entities who range from the literal angelic to the literal demonic. We're all entitled to our opinions (not facts, I know). BTW, honesty of witnesses plays an important role too.

Well I know what an alien is, but a demon is up to the individual, what exactly is a common demon considered to be, and where do they come from? Even the many Bibles have some conflict here, how can one demon cover all faiths?

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Well I know what an alien is, but a demon is up to the individual, what exactly is a common demon considered to be, and where do they come from? Even the many Bibles have some conflict here, how can one demon cover all faiths?

A congregation witnessed the same beings at the same time during an exorcism. I didn't see this, but an honest and trusted person confirmed that it happened. A second person did too. This occurrence was an example of what I meant in an earlier post. The same event was witnessed by a large number of people at the same place and same time. This was not Fatima. As for the crime witnesses in my earlier post, the description of the criminal was extremely dramatic so it would not be confusing. The criminal was a tall Latino with a hook. Your cited study was valid in that it demonstrated the very real problem of untrustworthy accounts made by eyewitnesses. It wasn't applicable to my particular illustration, though. The witnesses' specificity cast doubt on the contradictory tales in my example. IOW, the accounts about the Black man and the White woman were rendered to be demonstrably false due to the number of people who witnessed something else entirely. They were flukes or lies. The rest of the witnesses' descriptions exactly matched. If I was a cop, I would buy their descriptions, and I would look for a tall Latino with a hook for a hand. If there were varying descriptions of Latinos with no abnormalities, that would be another thing.

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Well I know what an alien is, but a demon is up to the individual, what exactly is a common demon considered to be, and where do they come from? Even the many Bibles have some conflict here, how can one demon cover all faiths?

BTW, I tried to cover varied bases in the other post. I understand that it might be confusing. I'll list my main points in case my earlier post reads like a WTF head-scratcher. I'm distracted and rushed, so the following points illustrate my views.

.Was the individual trustworthy?

.Did large numbers of people see the same thing at the same place and the same time?

.Are there identical accounts throughout the historical record, especially ones that traverse eras, locales, expectations, etc.?

.Did I experience it?

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A congregation witnessed the same beings at the same time during an exorcism. I didn't see this, but an honest and trusted person confirmed that it happened. A second person did too. This occurrence was an example of what I meant in an earlier post. The same event was witnessed by a large number of people at the same place and same time. This was not Fatima. As for the crime witnesses in my earlier post, the description of the criminal was extremely dramatic so it would not be confusing. The criminal was a tall Latino with a hook. Your cited study was valid in that it demonstrated the very real problem of untrustworthy accounts made by eyewitnesses. It wasn't applicable to my particular illustration, though. The witnesses' specificity cast doubt on the contradictory tales in my example. IOW, the accounts about the Black man and the White woman were rendered to be demonstrably false due to the number of people who witnessed something else entirely. They were flukes or lies. The rest of the witnesses' descriptions exactly matched. If I was a cop, I would buy their descriptions, and I would look for a tall Latino with a hook for a hand. If there were varying descriptions of Latinos with no abnormalities, that would be another thing.

As you say, people at Fatima saw different things, yet many corroborated each other, how would this not be a congregation of groups that experience what your case did?

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BTW, I tried to cover varied bases in the other post. I understand that it might be confusing. I'll list my main points in case my earlier post reads like a WTF head-scratcher. I'm distracted and rushed, so the following points illustrate my views.

.Was the individual trustworthy?

.Did large numbers of people see the same thing at the same place and the same time?

.Are there identical accounts throughout the historical record, especially ones that traverse eras, locales, expectations, etc.?

.Did I experience it?

What about cultural influences? Do you not feel they play a part, specifically referring to Frank earlier in the thread who mentioned that in his part of the world, Aliens have no power? In many cases such as Australian Indigenous creatures exist which are terrifying, yet earthly. This indicates that some cultures are visited by demons and some by aliens does it not?

To me what stands out is the common denominator. Man.

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As you say, people at Fatima saw different things, yet many corroborated each other, how would this not be a congregation of groups that experience what your case did?

They were completely different experiences. There were many variations. The exorcism took place in a small church in front of a congregation who witnessed black beings, like clouds or smoke, leave a possessed person. It wasn't some kind of solar event that took place outdoors. All of the congregation agreed on what they experienced. The pastor looked distressed and disturbed when I mentioned the event to him. It would be extremely difficult to fake that kind of physical reaction. There were a few other factors that I didn't mention because I didn't want to be identified (unlikely as it was).

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What about cultural influences? Do you not feel they play a part, specifically referring to Frank earlier in the thread who mentioned that in his part of the world, Aliens have no power? In many cases such as Australian Indigenous creatures exist which are terrifying, yet earthly. This indicates that some cultures are visited by demons and some by aliens does it not?

To me what stands out is the common denominator. Man.

I definitely agree that culture plays a huge role. We're almost on the same page there. In the cases of alleged demons and alleged extraterrestrials, it's almost impossible to argue that culture is unimportant. That said, there are a relatively few cases in which a cigar is just a cigar. For instance, I believe that the pastor and his congregation are truthful. I know that religion is the elephant in the church, but the malignant spiritual entities have "physical" forms that can be verified by a multitude of close, observant (or not) witnesses. This is one of those exceptions to the woo rule. I realize that some "exorcisms" are nothing but histrionic shenanigans, misinterpretations of certain factors when it's not downright chicanery.

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They were completely different experiences. There were many variations. The exorcism took place in a small church in front of a congregation who witnessed black beings, like clouds or smoke, leave a possessed person. It wasn't some kind of solar event that took place outdoors. All of the congregation agreed on what they experienced. The pastor looked distressed and disturbed when I mentioned the event to him. It would be extremely difficult to fake that kind of physical reaction. There were a few other factors that I didn't mention because I didn't want to be identified (unlikely as it was).

Not all of them, many corroborated to an extent or we would have thousands of individual claims. In any case you see no parallels so it seem pointless continuing with that example. How about the dancing plague of 1518? In July 1518 in Strasbourg, Alsace, France, a large number of people spontaneously started dancing for days without rest over a period of one month. Most of the people ended up dying due to heart attacks, strokes, or exhaustion. The plague started with one woman, in a matter of a few days that number increased to 340, and within a month to 4000. To this day the cause of the mass hysteria is unknown. Yet people went so far they exhausted themselves to death. They truly believed in something supernatural that clearly was merely self delusion. I would expect a priests faith to be at least this strong? No matter what he see's, he consider himself an authority in these grey areas, so he would assume he has the correct answer, and would confidently repeat it completely believing it to be factual, but his information is religion, upon which no facts can be based.

Or Koro, a culture specific syndrome?

Edited by psyche101

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Not all of them, many corroborated to an extent or we would have thousands of individual claims. In any case you see no parallels so it seem pointless continuing with that example. How about the dancing plague of 1518? In July 1518 in Strasbourg, Alsace, France, a large number of people spontaneously started dancing for days without rest over a period of one month. Most of the people ended up dying due to heart attacks, strokes, or exhaustion. The plague started with one woman, in a matter of a few days that number increased to 340, and within a month to 4000. To this day the cause of the mass hysteria is unknown. Yet people went so far they exhausted themselves to death. They truly believed in something supernatural that clearly was merely self delusion. I would expect a priests faith to be at least this strong? No matter what he see's, he consider himself an authority in these grey areas, so he would assume he has the correct answer, and would confidently repeat it completely believing it to be factual, but his information is religion, upon which no facts can be based.

Or Koro, a culture specific syndrome?

Thanks for reminding me to buy a book on experiences like that. It's a great collection of a lot of examples. There's no doubt that mass hysteria is and was a real phenomenon. It explains some alleged paranormal events. It doesn't explain all of them, though. Mass hysteria and true experience can exist side by side in the world. Both can be real, just like physicians encounter hypochondriacs as well as genuinely sick individuals. We live in a vast universe, full of myriad possibilities, where x does not necessarily show that y must have the same root cause.

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YOUR MOTHER SEWS SOCKS THAT SMELL!!!

Sorry, got possessed for a moment there.

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Thanks for reminding me to buy a book on experiences like that. It's a great collection of a lot of examples. There's no doubt that mass hysteria is and was a real phenomenon. It explains some alleged paranormal events. It doesn't explain all of them, though. Mass hysteria and true experience can exist side by side in the world. Both can be real, just like physicians encounter hypochondriacs as well as genuinely sick individuals. We live in a vast universe, full of myriad possibilities, where x does not necessarily show that y must have the same root cause.

Does not the fact that many have been explained, and more all the time indicate that all just may be explainable? Do you find an individuals response to an event alone good enough reason to believe that they have seen something as they describe it and if so, is this not a very minimal percentage? Could this not be explained by prosaic explanations if the number is small?

Edited by psyche101
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ERGOT! Do not forget ergot.

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Not all of them, many corroborated to an extent or we would have thousands of individual claims. In any case you see no parallels so it seem pointless continuing with that example. How about the dancing plague of 1518?

Yeh I heard of that some years back, forgot about till you mentioned it and just looked it up again

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_Plague_of_1518

seems the physicians encouraged the act.

Also kinda reminds me of when I got into the rave culture ..hehe :tu:

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Does not the fact that many have been explained, and more all the time indicate that all just may be explainable? Do you find an individuals response to an event alone good enough reason to believe that they have seen something as they describe it and if so, is this not a very minimal percentage? Could this not be explained by prosaic explanations if the number is small?

All events have explanations. It just takes longer to find some than others. In the event that I mentioned, a pastor and his congregation witnessed the same thing in the same place at the same time. It wasn't just one person. One or two individuals could have misinterpreted it. A uniform agreement on it from all of the congregants is another thing, and that agreement decreases the odds that it is prosaic. Some experiences are caused by prosaic things, but this was not one of them. In this particular case, unlike many questionable "exorcisms", a cigar indeed was a cigar.

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All events have explanations. It just takes longer to find some than others. In the event that I mentioned, a pastor and his congregation witnessed the same thing in the same place at the same time. It wasn't just one person. One or two individuals could have misinterpreted it. A uniform agreement on it from all of the congregants is another thing, and that agreement decreases the odds that it is prosaic. Some experiences are caused by prosaic things, but this was not one of them. In this particular case, unlike many questionable "exorcisms", a cigar indeed was a cigar.

But they were all of the same belief and culture. If you outline the circumstance with detail, it may well become apparent that it was something they all might expect to see?

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Yeh I heard of that some years back, forgot about till you mentioned it and just looked it up again

http://en.wikipedia...._Plague_of_1518

seems the physicians encouraged the act.

Also kinda reminds me of when I got into the rave culture ..hehe :tu:

It seems highly odd that they would encourage the act. But thats just my opinion

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But they were all of the same belief and culture. If you outline the circumstance with detail, it may well become apparent that it was something they all might expect to see?

It was physical evidence, not individual interpretations. The entities looked like black clouds or black smoke. That was extremely dramatic evidence. It wasn't like a Bob Larson stage show.

Edited by Detective Mystery 2013

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YOUR MOTHER SEWS SOCKS THAT SMELL!!!

Sorry, got possessed for a moment there.

YOUR MOTHER SEWS SOCKS THAT SMELL!!!

sorry possessed for a moment there by alien demons

awww.. wingdings dont work :P

Edited by DingoLingo
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It was physical evidence, not individual interpretations. The entities looked like black clouds or black smoke. That was extremely dramatic evidence. It wasn't like a Bob Larson stage show.

Sorry. I am somewhat confused, did you not say it was the witness expressions that you were convinced by? I do not mean to make light of your information, sorry if it comes across that way, I am just trying to understand. I have no belief in the afterlife whatsoever, I am not sure if that is the stumbling block for me here.

I used to live with someone who reckoned they saw Ghosts, at night sometimes he would swear a portion of a corner, or part of a room contained a black(er) part in the shadows, which he claimed was a ghost or some such, yet when I looked, the darkness seemed quite uniform. I could see his version of events decribed as above, but to a neutral observer, it was nothing. If everyone in the congregation was expecting to see something, and they all had the exact same faith, attending the same Church, and I assume regularly, would they not all expect to see the same thing? Do pictures or the like exist to confirm the black smoke/Cloud or pure testimony?

I know in my Fathers final months, he had many hallucinations, and being a religious man who had fought in WWII he described some astounding scenes, sometimes like a real life situation, sometimes like ghosts, and sometimes in 2D like a movie playing on a wall, but he saw these things as if everyone could. Since he passed, I have completely lost any notion of faith in an afterlife, but he does continually remind me that our minds are capable of influencing ourselves to see what is in out minds in what appears to be real time. It's not though, I witnessed many of them. He said I had some little girl following me around, which was pretty spooky at the time I suppose, but now I know it was someone from his past, perhaps a lost memory of a childhood sweetheart, or a lost sister, as he did lose contact with his family through WWII and as far as I know, never regained it. Watching his demise was a powerful and life changing experience and it was a major factor in reinforcing a skeptical perspective on all subjects.

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Sorry. I am somewhat confused, did you not say it was the witness expressions that you were convinced by? I do not mean to make light of your information, sorry if it comes across that way, I am just trying to understand. I have no belief in the afterlife whatsoever, I am not sure if that is the stumbling block for me here.

I used to live with someone who reckoned they saw Ghosts, at night sometimes he would swear a portion of a corner, or part of a room contained a black(er) part in the shadows, which he claimed was a ghost or some such, yet when I looked, the darkness seemed quite uniform. I could see his version of events decribed as above, but to a neutral observer, it was nothing. If everyone in the congregation was expecting to see something, and they all had the exact same faith, attending the same Church, and I assume regularly, would they not all expect to see the same thing? Do pictures or the like exist to confirm the black smoke/Cloud or pure testimony?

I know in my Fathers final months, he had many hallucinations, and being a religious man who had fought in WWII he described some astounding scenes, sometimes like a real life situation, sometimes like ghosts, and sometimes in 2D like a movie playing on a wall, but he saw these things as if everyone could. Since he passed, I have completely lost any notion of faith in an afterlife, but he does continually remind me that our minds are capable of influencing ourselves to see what is in out minds in what appears to be real time. It's not though, I witnessed many of them. He said I had some little girl following me around, which was pretty spooky at the time I suppose, but now I know it was someone from his past, perhaps a lost memory of a childhood sweetheart, or a lost sister, as he did lose contact with his family through WWII and as far as I know, never regained it. Watching his demise was a powerful and life changing experience and it was a major factor in reinforcing a skeptical perspective on all subjects.

I never saw the event. A parson and his daughter told me. They were very honest, and the man's congregation witnessed the event too. I also met the man who once was possessed. He joined the church after the exorcism. I doubt that it was a mass hallucination. They saw the same thing at the same time and same place. It was a spontaneous experience that was witnessed in real time. The malignant entities had physical, tangible forms. They were as visible as clouds or smoke. The deliverance wasn't like some faked, staged "exorcism" like some questionable moments at a Bob Larson event. BTW, your civil tone was much noted.

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I never saw the event. A parson and his daughter told me. They were very honest, and the man's congregation witnessed the event too. I also met the man who once was possessed. He joined the church after the exorcism. I doubt that it was a mass hallucination. They saw the same thing at the same time and same place. It was a spontaneous experience that was witnessed in real time. The malignant entities had physical, tangible forms. They were as visible as clouds or smoke. The deliverance wasn't like some faked, staged "exorcism" like some questionable moments at a Bob Larson event. BTW, your civil tone was much noted.

Much as you're convinced by everyone's honesty regarding the event (whatever it may have been) you are unfortunately not in possession of any physical evidence. All you have are the anecdotes of people with a strong religious bias who have interpreted what they saw as a paranormal occurrence.

Testimony, no matter how convincing, should not be taken at face value, otherwise you risk closing yourself off from searching for other possibilities. That is what belief is all about.

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Evidence would be automatically rejected by debunkers. They wouldn't even look at it. Skeptics would have open minds, though, and they would go where the proof took them, even if it injured their sacred cows. True skeptics don't worship at the altars of Dawkins and Randi.

Sorry for going offtopic but i think there was a visitation of some kind in last 60-70 years or just a sighting of a actual ETV. You see at first i thought it was all about secret black budget project - a craft capable of many things. I was writting a detailed blog from Nazi times to now, evolution of the craft and technology behind it..But something did come up and i think that not all were ETV but i think there is a chance that some few very few were. The connection begun with first A-bomb going off, that blast emitted incredible amount of energy and at the time i think someone picked up that shockwave, as like we would from any other planet we are listening to via SETI and many others.. Imagine a nuclear blast on Mars or any other planet even from out of our solar system... we would detected it for sure. But fortunally i guess habitants our there are not so foolish as we are.

The sightings of the secret military crafts begun at post ww2 times shortly after paperclip ended. Hell there is even video material showing their so called " failure " to do it. But as technology evolved so did the idea for the revival of such craft. There are trillions of dollars going missing every year for as long as i remember, and people dont know where they go, people who are in charge of those budgets.

So at bottom line i think i'll repeat I THINK there is more to this than just UFO sightings. There are theirs and there are ours.

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I cannot prove any ETV visit nor military project both are strickly classified fields of research, we do get leaks here and there but not all are true mostly false. But for now black triangle is very true in my opinion i based that on history of the initial idea and minds behind it.

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Much as you're convinced by everyone's honesty regarding the event (whatever it may have been) you are unfortunately not in possession of any physical evidence. All you have are the anecdotes of people with a strong religious bias who have interpreted what they saw as a paranormal occurrence.

Testimony, no matter how convincing, should not be taken at face value, otherwise you risk closing yourself off from searching for other possibilities. That is what belief is all about.

I know and trust the witnesses. I don't need a laboratory experiment to believe them. I don't need physical evidence. In fact, it's nigh impossible to have such. I can't present dissipated "clouds" or "smoke" to an expert so that he can write a paper for a scientific journal. As a rule, I doubt such stories. This is an exception. Credible witnesses can substitute for investigations that may not be possible to accomplish.

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