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NocturnalWatcher

you can obe? prove it

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Getting a little frustrated seeing all these people claim to do it but it just seems like such nonsense.

The people often talking about it never seen to give much detail about the experience.

I mean if it looks like the phySical world and so many people do it why have I never heard a single story about people meeting in the spirit world?

To those who have done it answer this

If its the same as our real world can you spy on people?

Can you see other obe people?

Why haven't I ever heard a single interesting story about what people do every night when they do it?

If you can one and travel anywhere how about I put something in a location you astral travel there and tell me what it is. Should be easy job for those claiming to astral travel right?

Rarely do I ever see good description if what its like how you move what colours there are etc...

Is this just a bunch of caflooey? Why can't anyone prove its real if it is?

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If I give an address or location and put something there which one of you astral travelers can tell me What is there.

Should be easy? Who's up for the challenge?

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you will find that most people probably arnt interested in proving to others what they can and cannot do. i doubt you will get any takers and any that do with probley get it wrong thus pretty much confirming your opinion of your pretty word caflooey?

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I put this in the wrong section.

Supposed to be dreams ans consciousness

Oh and if they don't want to prove it they are obviously lying to

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What's an obe? 0_o

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I am skilled at "out of body" travel. However, I am normally skeptical of most paranormal topics. What first sparked my curiosity into "astral projection" or "OBE's" was the first time I accidently fell into "sleep paralysis". I moved my arms and it seemed like they were moving through syrup almost and leaving a trail as they moved, similar to when you wave a sparkler through the air at night. I searched on the internet for what exactly it was I had experienced, and read all about sleep paralysis, but I still wondered how I moved my arms while in this state. That's when I stumbled upon "OBE" in my research. Like I said, I was not inclined to believe in such things, but the experience sounded too interesting to pass up at the time. If you look on the internet you will see there is a fair amount of consistency in experiences and techniques to achieve this, so I read about techniques and trained daily for six months. I didn't give up, just persevered and I did achieve a fully councious out of body experience (and it was life changing and just as amazing as most of what you've probably heard about it).

At this time i became fairly skilled in achieving out of body experiences, and the next step, was lucid dreaming. I noticed that the two states were very similar and today I don't really differentiate between them. Even during councious exit, you leave your body, stand in your room and it seem totally like the physical world... at first. The more you move the more you notice inconsistencies and the experience basically takes on a dream environment. I personally don't believe in out of body travel, I believe it takes place in the mind and is very similar to a dream state (and you're not denying that people dream are you?), only you are totally councious and can manipulate the environment.

Sorry if that was redundant, but the point of my post is that while you're totally justified in denying that people can leave the body, I do not believe you are justified in denying that the experience is real. Research techniques to achieve sleep paralysis or the "trance" state and then learn exit techniques from there. Just don't give up. Real or not, it does not change the fact that this is a rewarding and interesting thing to practice and experience, but until you do experience it for yourself, its all just hearsay.

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See what I mean you just said you can astral travel then you said you were not sure if you were dreaming. How the heck can you not know the difference? I mean if u even have to ask that question you were dreaming.

If u think its not a dream give me reasons why?

Also give me detailed descriptions on what the other side is like.

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What I said was there is no difference between "astral travel" and "lucid dreaming". A lucid dream is just like a regular dream, except you are councious and aware of being in a dream. Like any skill the more you practice the longer you can stay councious in the dream state and the more control you can gain over your environment. At no point did I state anything about the "other side", I just told you what its like, like a dream only you're aware and councious and you can create or explore any environment your mind, whether councious or subcouncious can come up with. There is nothing paranormal about it, unless you're suggesting everyone who has had a regular dream is lying.

Edited by Glorfindel
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You're wasting your time. You'll either get an angry reply about how no one has to prove anything to you, or it'll be an incomprehensible mess of words that'll go into one about dreams and the like. I've asked for proof of the paranormal before and never got any. I'd love for it to be real but it just seems like a bunch of immature adults lying to each other.

Let the children have their fantasies, okay? They do no harm anyhow.

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I hope you're not honestly suggesting my posts were incomprehensible, the message is very clear. Leaving the body is fake, lucid dreaming is real (not real in the sense that a dream is anything more than a dream, just that people can and do experience dreams, obviously). So to ask people to "prove it" means you're mistakenly expecting there to be some sort of paranormal aspect to these experiences, or you are just ignorant of the information on OBE's and incapable of sifting through the new age mumbo jumbo to get to the practical aspects.

Edited by Glorfindel

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So you are right, he is wasting his time.

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I hope you're not honestly suggesting my posts were incomprehensible, the message is very clear. Leaving the body is fake, lucid dreaming is real (not real in the sense that a dream is anything more than a dream, just that people can and do experience dreams, obviously). So to ask people to "prove it" means you're mistakenly expecting there to be some sort of paranormal aspect to these experiences, or you are just ignorant of the information on OBE's and incapable of sifting through the new age mumbo jumbo to get to the practical aspects.

Wasn't aiming my post at you. I know Lucid dreaming is real, it happens to me a lot because, probably to do with the Sleep Paralysis and insomnia. It's cool but I don't get these people who think it's some ethereal ability...it's a dream ffs.

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"out of body" travel

Ahhh ok. Thanks for answering my question :)

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I agree it is only a dream, there's nothing concrete to suggest otherwise. But I practiced long enough to know you really can reach some profound mental states through it. It's just equally as frustrating getting through to total skeptics as it is to total believers, its as if they think altered states of counciousness don't happen period. People believe it is not a dream because the councious exit is much more profound then lucid dreaming, and because the sleep state is skipped during councious exit (due to sleep paralysis) the practitioner is very councious and aware, but like I said, that passes and the environment becomes more dream like. Anyways, sorry if I'm off topic, but the whole proposition of this thread is based off ignorance of the subject matter on multiple counts, so I thought it was relevant.

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Ahhh ok. Thanks for answering my question :)

Actually "Out of Body Experience", and no problem ma'am :)

Edited by Glorfindel
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Wasn't aiming my post at you. I know Lucid dreaming is real, it happens to me a lot because, probably to do with the Sleep Paralysis and insomnia. It's cool but I don't get these people who think it's some ethereal ability...it's a dream ffs.

It's a matter of opinion and belief on your entire view of life and your world. It seems like you're under the view that this physical world is the only real thing, and all else perceived is created by our physical pink slimy thing. Others think differently. You have to at least be able to understand their differing opinion a little bit, right? I can understand yours, but 'it's a dream ffs' is dismissive and not really saying much of anything. What is a dream? To be able to answer that, you'd have to understand the mind, which we don't yet. Until then, all we have are beliefs, hypotheses, and/or opinions.

As to the OP's challenge, as I think it's already been gone over here, altered states are a confirmed phenomena of the mind and there is no need to prove that they exist to you. What you think they are is up to you, but they are there, I can assure you.

Oh and if they don't want to prove it they are obviously lying to

Or they just don't care enough to jump through even the smallest of hoops for you, the random abrasive challenger to something they may or may not care if you even believe exists or not. That, or they're just filthy liars.

I didn't want that to come out as abrasive as it did, but I'm just going to put it out there that these are the type of responses you may get if that's the type of energy you're putting into the pot here, OP. In the words of Conan O'Brien, "keep cool, mah babiiies".

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It's a matter of opinion and belief on your entire view of life and your world. It seems like you're under the view that this physical world is the only real thing, and all else perceived is created by our physical pink slimy thing. Others think differently. You have to at least be able to understand their differing opinion a little bit, right? I can understand yours, but 'it's a dream ffs' is dismissive and not really saying much of anything. What is a dream? To be able to answer that, you'd have to understand the mind, which we don't yet. Until then, all we have are beliefs, hypotheses, and/or opinions.

As to the OP's challenge, as I think it's already been gone over here, altered states are a confirmed phenomena of the mind and there is no need to prove that they exist to you. What you think they are is up to you, but they are there, I can assure you.

Or they just don't care enough to jump through even the smallest of hoops for you, the random abrasive challenger to something they may or may not care if you even believe exists or not. That, or they're just filthy liars.

I didn't want that to come out as abrasive as it did, but I'm just going to put it out there that these are the type of responses you may get if that's the type of energy you're putting into the pot here, OP. In the words of Conan O'Brien, "keep cool, mah babiiies".

I just want the truth, that's all. Is it too much to ask the truth of those who claim to know it?

I've asked before a few times and have never gotten proof. Makes me think they're just lying.

Edited by Sean93
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I just want the truth, that's all. Is it too much to ask the truth of those who claim to know it?

Yes, because you should know by now that no one knows the truth about all of this. Anyone who claims otherwise has to be taken with a grain of salt, but not entirely discounted because of their overly sure attitude and beliefs.

As far as out of body experiences go, I'm not even fit to answer because I haven't had one myself fully. But what I have had happen is 'on the way" I think. I've been meditating and felt my head lift up and forward, as if it just decided to move up on its own. The instant I put together that it had moved up, though, it fell back down and I realized it actually went into my actual head, which was still lying on the bed. Now how did I realize this? I don't know; it was the feeling, and sensation of the moment that I just can't explain, but it made me know.

The other time was also meditating, around a few days from the other experience. I looked to the right while meditating, to notice a blue-white-ish blurry thing. Upon looking, I realized it was a forearm/hand coming out of my actual arm, lifted up with the hand pointing its finger up and thumb out to the side, almost like a spiderman web sling position. It looked so awkward the way it was bent up and made me uncomfortable to watch. I just turned my head back and went back to doing my thing.

Now these two events really happened to me. But how am I supposed to prove that they did, when I don't even know exactly what happened, how, or why? Now you start to see people's dilemma when being 'challenged' to prove that these type of experiences happened to them. How do you suggest they go about giving you proof, if they felt the need to?

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Yes, because you should know by now that no one knows the truth about all of this. Anyone who claims otherwise has to be taken with a grain of salt, but not entirely discounted because of their overly sure attitude and beliefs.

As far as out of body experiences go, I'm not even fit to answer because I haven't had one myself fully. But what I have had happen is 'on the way" I think. I've been meditating and felt my head lift up and forward, as if it just decided to move up on its own. The instant I put together that it had moved up, though, it fell back down and I realized it actually went into my actual head, which was still lying on the bed. Now how did I realize this? I don't know; it was the feeling, and sensation of the moment that I just can't explain, but it made me know.

The other time was also meditating, around a few days from the other experience. I looked to the right while meditating, to notice a blue-white-ish blurry thing. Upon looking, I realized it was a forearm/hand coming out of my actual arm, lifted up with the hand pointing its finger up and thumb out to the side, almost like a spiderman web sling position. It looked so awkward the way it was bent up and made me uncomfortable to watch. I just turned my head back and went back to doing my thing.

Now these two events really happened to me. But how am I supposed to prove that they did, when I don't even know exactly what happened, how, or why? Now you start to see people's dilemma when being 'challenged' to prove that these type of experiences happened to them. How do you suggest they go about giving you proof, if they felt the need to?

As far as arms coming out of other arms go, I don't know. As for OBE's and that, what the poster said above: Experimentation. See if the OBE-er can go to a place or read a number while asleep. That's the kind of experiments that should be done to test the validity of these claims. I'm not interested in the simple stuff, just the major: people dreaming and predicting disasters, talking to god, NDE's etc.

I'm not the kind of person to believe something without sufficient evidence of it, especially when it concerns such massive matters as the supernatural. I have to question why some people have these extra-sensory abilities, why they conflict in description and above all, whether they actually work. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Psychics, Seer's and Astral Travelers and all those other kinds of people don't have to prove anything to anyone but they should be prepared to be scrutinized if they make public their personal spiritual/metaphysical journeys because after all, people are going to want to know if it's real. All of our greatest discoveries have had to stand the weight of skepticism and some of them failed while others succeeded, no claim goes forward without scrutiny, if people can prove their claims in some way or form then that's a good thing as it means they'll be taken seriously and the metaphysical will be taken seriously also but until that is done, they are simply just 'stories'.

I'd love to be proven wrong.

Edited by Sean93

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See if the OBE-er can go to a place or read a number while asleep.

You'll have to be more clear of your proposed tests, and what it's supposed to be proving.

But if you are getting at what I think you are, and it seems the OP was trying to, too: you must be alluding to how people have said that they wanted to go somewhere while out of their body. So they picked, say, the Sphinx. All of a sudden, they're there.

Now do you think they actually took a trip to the Sphinx in Egypt, albeit an alternate dimension of Egypt, and can give a reading of a piece of paper that has been placed there in our physical world by you? Or do you think they visited a Sphinx in the world of their mind; something they created on the spot? Which is more likely? Now it starts to seem silly trying to tell someone to go to a place in their altered state, and prove something to you by viewing something there, as it is here on Earth. It seems a misunderstanding on what is going on.

You'll have to think of a more fitting way to hold your test. Or who knows, maybe it will work. But to pick some random place that the person their self has never even experienced before doesn't make sense. Are they supposed to be also psychi now too, and be able to figure otu how to reach places where they have no general idea on how to get there, or even where 'there' is at all? It just doesn't make sense.

The other thing is, what exactly are you trying to get them to prove? You and I know altered states exist. So what about them exactly? That might help in setting up your tests, as you can know what exactly you're trying to test. Because what you're trying to test may be based on a misunderstanding of a concept, like above.

As far as head and body parts going out of the body, that's what it has to do with going 'out of body'. Seemingly the entrance to completely leaving the body would be partially separating from the body, no?

Edited by _Only
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Still aint seen any definite proof

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You'll have to be more clear of your proposed tests, and what it's supposed to be proving.

But if you are getting at what I think you are, and it seems the OP was trying to, too: you must be alluding to how people have said that they wanted to go somewhere while out of their body. So they picked, say, the Sphinx. All of a sudden, they're there.

Now do you think they actually took a trip to the Sphinx in Egypt, albeit an alternate dimension of Egypt, and can give a reading of a piece of paper that has been placed there in our physical world by you? Or do you think they visited a Sphinx in the world of their mind; something they created on the spot? Which is more likely? Now it starts to seem silly trying to tell someone to go to a place in their altered state, and prove something to you by viewing something there, as it is here on Earth. It seems a misunderstanding on what is going on.

You'll have to think of a more fitting way to hold your test. Or who knows, maybe it will work. But to pick some random place that the person their self has never even experienced before doesn't make sense. Are they supposed to be also psychi now too, and be able to figure otu how to reach places where they have no general idea on how to get there, or even where 'there' is at all? It just doesn't make sense.

The other thing is, what exactly are you trying to get them to prove? You and I know altered states exist. So what about them exactly? That might help in setting up your tests, as you can know what exactly you're trying to test. Because what you're trying to test may be based on a misunderstanding of a concept, like above.

As far as head and body parts going out of the body, that's what it has to do with going 'out of body'. Seemingly the entrance to completely leaving the body would be partially separating from the body, no?

This is exactly right, say you placed something on top of the sphinx (just as example) and wanted an "astral projector" to tell you whats there, youre not gonna get an answer. Because the Egypt the projector is experiencing is a compilation of say, everything theyve read, seen or heard about Egypt, their mind comes up with a composite of how they view Egypt. They are not actually in the real physical Egypt. So as a practitioner to a skeptic, I'm telling you there is no proof nor am I claiming there is.

This might be a bad example, but say you have two people. One has a psychoactive substance, its illegal and the effects are well known. He takes it and starts hallucinating, but the other person who has never took a psychoactive substance flat out dosen't believe anything is happening to the user. Is that not ridiculous? The only way the person experiencing a "high" can prove the effects, is for the other person to take the substance. Not advocating drug use here, just using it as example of an altered state of counciousness. You're not honestly gonna try tell me every drug user in the world is lying about experiecing a different mental state are you? Just because you haven't experienced it yourself? Peoples lives are ruined and become addicted but there is no altered states of counciousness involved? They're all just faking it?

And like _Only said, you are generalizing new age practices as having something to do with "OBE's", it has nothing to do with being psychic, making predictions, etc., totally different things. Just because alot of "new agers" believe in a such things, dosen't mean you can generalize things. Like I implyed before, I'm a man of science who holds no religious beliefs, I do practice things which I can directly experience for myself though, like "out of body travel" and other meditative states. Once again, it comes back to the OP's lack of reading about a topic he is supposed to be curious about. Nothing worth doing comes easy and there's nothing stopping you from training and experiencing this for yourself. If you were actually the curious minded skeptic you're trying to be, thats the route you would take. As opposed to calling everyone liars simply because you do not posess either the time, patience or will power to achieve it.

Edited by Glorfindel

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Experience it, believe it. Anyone experienced OBE can tell it's a whole new level of "dreaming". They are not faking it, they are not lying about it, the experience is true. As for whether the astral plane really exists or not, let science discover it.

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What I said was there is no difference between "astral travel" and "lucid dreaming". A lucid dream is just like a regular dream, except you are councious and aware of being in a dream. Like any skill the more you practice the longer you can stay councious in the dream state and the more control you can gain over your environment. At no point did I state anything about the "other side", I just told you what its like, like a dream only you're aware and councious and you can create or explore any environment your mind, whether councious or subconscous can come up with. There is nothing paranormal about it, unless you're suggesting everyone who has had a regular dream is lying.

My astral travels are not like lucid dreaming at all. I do both and there is no comparison. During astral travel my spirit leaves my body and travels to many places. I visit other dimensions and planets and sometimes, but not often, communicate with people there.

My travels are meant to be a learning experience (although some are quite fun). I rarely travel with spirits of people I know here on Earth, but sometimes my sister is with me. The spirits I travel with are sometimes guides and sometimes other travellers who may or may not be from this dimension, but are 'astral travel' friends.

I don't go on adventures but I am shown things. How others live. Their architecture. Their ways. Their machines. Their history. Their senses and feelings. Sometimes glimpses of the future. My past lives.

One of my favourite things to do is to soar. Soar over towns, cities, forests, great bodies of water, and among the stars in space.

That is what I do when I astral travel (without the details as it would be too much typing).

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No you can't spy on people; the thought of it never comes to mind. Yes you do see other travellers.

And the reason we don't respond to "prove it" is because we can't prove it. Period.

It sounds like a great idea when on this plane but once you astral project it's the last thing on the list. Our spirit guide leads us in other directions. We don't even think of trying to prove it. It is just too trivial in the astral world.

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