J. K. Posted February 21, 2013 #51 Share Posted February 21, 2013 It's the philosophical equivalent of an M.C. Escher drawing. When you start examining it carefully, you realize that the objects cannot exist...in our world of three dimensions. However, it does exist in two dimensions, otherwise you wouldn't be looking at it. The Big Rock example doesn't account for the possibility that God exists in more dimensions than the three we know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idano Posted February 21, 2013 #52 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Except, he knew it wouldn't destroy Job. Well than even worse. Inflicting all the pain and mental anguish on something beloved just to win a bet?...sorry still sounds evil to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markdohle Posted February 22, 2013 #53 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Can God invent a building so tall that when he gets into an elevator he will never reach the top? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Crane Feather Posted February 22, 2013 #54 Share Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) Can God invent a building so tall that when he gets into an elevator he will never reach the top? Can god kill himself ? Can god send himself to hell for eternity if he decides to sin ? Can god create another god greater than he? How long has god known that he would create Satan? Why did god create Somone who has a miserable painful life and knew of but would never accept Christ only to die a spiritual death or be tortured in hell. Omnipotence dictates that god new very well that the only experience of this being would be misery. Why create such a thing? I think it's clear that omnipotence is off the table. If god woke up one day and discovered he was omnipotent god would cease to exist. There would be no conciousness in knowing everything and every future decision and turn of events. Edited February 22, 2013 by Seeker79 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. K. Posted February 22, 2013 #55 Share Posted February 22, 2013 It's the old Flatland story. Two dimensional shapes cannot comprehend the structure of three dimensional solids. In the same way, we cannot fully comprehend what God is. However, lack of understanding doesn't imply non-existence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielost Posted February 22, 2013 Author #56 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Can god kill himself ? (Death is only changing from one form to another. With that in mind perhaps he could change to a new form.) Can god send himself to hell for eternity if he decides to sin ? (Hell is the absence of god. Also, hell is self punishment.) Can god create another god greater than he? (Keeping with my first answer, maybe,) How long has god known that he would create Satan? (Don't know.) Why did god create Somone who has a miserable painful life and knew of but would never accept Christ only to die a spiritual death or be tortured in hell. Omnipotence dictates that god new very well that the only experience of this being would be misery. Why create such a thing? (He didn't. He gave man free will. Lucifer wanted to force man to be good.) I think it's clear that omnipotence is off the table. If god woke up one day and discovered he was omnipotent god would cease to exist. There would be no conciousness in knowing everything and every future decision and turn of events. You could be correct with that statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted February 22, 2013 #57 Share Posted February 22, 2013 It's the old Flatland story. Two dimensional shapes cannot comprehend the structure of three dimensional solids. In the same way, we cannot fully comprehend what God is. However, lack of understanding doesn't imply non-existence. You conclude that because we can't imagine four-dimensional super-shapes means we cannot draw logical conclusions about them. This does not follow. We can logically conclude the God that we get preached about is a logical impossibility. There is no need to try to imagine it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. K. Posted February 22, 2013 #58 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Being able to draw logical conclusions about something does not bring total understanding of that thing. There will be characteristics of it that are indescribable from our point-of-view. If you claim to understand everything about God, that would make you more than God yourself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted February 22, 2013 #59 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Pointless. What is there to know once one has demonstrated that the idea is leads to logical contradictions and therefore is false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nathan DiYorio Posted February 22, 2013 #60 Share Posted February 22, 2013 "Ominipotent" is often misconstrued as an inherent contradiction, yet it is not. This often missed element is that "Omnipotence is combinded with Omniscience", which, essentially, say's that there is Wisdom before the expression of Power. As such, God creating a rock He can not lift is void by virtue of Wisdom. Would or Should are irrelevant to Could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. K. Posted February 22, 2013 #61 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Pointless. What is there to know once one has demonstrated that the idea is leads to logical contradictions and therefore is false. A god is, by definition, a supreme being, which means that there are aspects of a god that are beyond human understanding. Do you have a four-dimensional solid that you can show me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcion Meets E. Sibyl Posted February 28, 2013 #62 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Why did god create Somone who has a miserable painful life and knew of but would never accept Christ only to die a spiritual death or be tortured in hell. Omnipotence dictates that god new very well that the only experience of this being would be misery. Why create such a thing? Who would this person be? Would that be you? You're looking at it from a human being's perspective. You also have to take into account free will, choices, the nature of our eternal soul, eternity, itself, and using finite language to describe infinite, abstract concepts and truths. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcion Meets E. Sibyl Posted February 28, 2013 #63 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Being able to draw logical conclusions about something does not bring total understanding of that thing. There will be characteristics of it that are indescribable from our point-of-view. If you claim to understand everything about God, that would make you more than God yourself. Agreed. It's like the nature of unconditional love. It's not what most people make it out to be. Even those people who received an insight about its nature, I'm sure they'll also say that there's more to unconditional love than greets the heart and mind. The strange thing about getting older is the fact that things slip away and disappear from one's mind. The mind is the slayer of the soul. To have the gull to double guess God is absolutely absurd."Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you should have no sin: but now you say, We see; therefore your sin remains." (John 9:41) Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted February 28, 2013 #64 Share Posted February 28, 2013 A god is, by definition, a supreme being, which means that there are aspects of a god that are beyond human understanding.You're invoking human understanding and then throwing it out. May aswell just say "I don't know, God did it"Do you have a four-dimensional solid that you can show me? A nonsensical question. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. K. Posted February 28, 2013 #65 Share Posted February 28, 2013 No, I'm just pointing out that humans don't know everything there is to know. Scientist don't understand everything about the natural universe. If they had all the answers, then there would be no need for further research. There are still things in the universe that are beyond our understanding, and probably beyond our ability to understand. The challenge remains: show me a four-dimensional solid object. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted February 28, 2013 #66 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I dunno -- resorting to the fact that we humans are finite to get around a logical proof strikes me as a cop-out. On that basis believe anything at all. I would prefer to have a rational basis for my opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted February 28, 2013 #67 Share Posted February 28, 2013 No, I'm just pointing out that humans don't know everything there is to know. Scientist don't understand everything about the natural universe. If they had all the answers, then there would be no need for further research. There are still things in the universe that are beyond our understanding, and probably beyond our ability to understand. The challenge remains: show me a four-dimensional solid object. You don't need to know everything to point out an impossibility. Your challenge is nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Crane Feather Posted February 28, 2013 #68 Share Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) Who would this person be? Would that be you? You're looking at it from a human being's perspective. You also have to take into account free will, choices, the nature of our eternal soul, eternity, itself, and using finite language to describe infinite, abstract concepts and truths. Oh I don't know.... Mabey the African teenager going blind from worms in his eyes that never had a good meal in is life, was forced to fight for local rebels, that rejected the missionary in favor of his traditional religion. It would seem that an omniscient god would have known all this ahead of time, even designed it that way. Gods will and all. Or what about that little 3 year old girl who's parents strapped her to a chair with a hole in it to poop in and left her in a basement for 10 years until Somone found her. They where kind enough to give her food and water but 10 years of isolation ruined her mind. She never regained any sort of normal function. Things like this shake my faith in any kind of providence. No I don't think god is omniscient. Yes we cannot possibly fathom an eternal being and know the mind of god. But this is what men try to do isn't it. Through our bibles and scriptures other men try to tell others about the mind of god that really cannot even be spoken about because even just a little information about a truely eternal god cannot even fit in our skulls. There would not be enough brain matter to even begin to understand. Edited February 28, 2013 by Seeker79 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. K. Posted February 28, 2013 #69 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I dunno -- resorting to the fact that we humans are finite to get around a logical proof strikes me as a cop-out. On that basis believe anything at all. I would prefer to have a rational basis for my opinions. Humans are finite. Does rational logic provide an explanation for everything yet? What is beyond the edge of the universe? What existed before the Big Bang? You don't need to know everything to point out an impossibility. Your challenge is nonsense. Tell me why a four-dimensional solid is an impossibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted February 28, 2013 #70 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Tell me why a four-dimensional solid is an impossibility. Solid doesn't really apply to the temporal dimension.However if you mean a geometric shape, http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Hypercube.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. K. Posted February 28, 2013 #71 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Solid doesn't really apply to the temporal dimension. However if you mean a geometric shape, http://mathworld.wol.../Hypercube.html The link you provided shows "a projection of the tesseract in three-space", not the actual object itself. If you prefer to avoid four-space, then show me a five-space or a six-space solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcion Meets E. Sibyl Posted February 28, 2013 #72 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Oh I don't know.... Mabey the African teenager going blind from worms in his eyes that never had a good meal in is life, was forced to fight for local rebels, that rejected the missionary in favor of his traditional religion. It would seem that an omniscient god would have known all this ahead of time, even designed it that way. Gods will and all. Or what about that little 3 year old girl who's parents strapped her to a chair with a hole in it to poop in and left her in a basement for 10 years until Somone found her. They where kind enough to give her food and water but 10 years of isolation ruined her mind. She never regained any sort of normal function. Things like this shake my faith in any kind of providence. No I don't think god is omniscient. Yes we cannot possibly fathom an eternal being and know the mind of god. But this is what men try to do isn't it. Through our bibles and scriptures other men try to tell others about the mind of god that really cannot even be spoken about because even just a little information about a truely eternal god cannot even fit in our skulls. There would not be enough brain matter to even begin to understand. Hi Seeker79, I can sympathize because my world has been rocked to its foundation. The interesting about my situation is that it was what I had asked for during my meditation teacher/yogi years: to find my answers. The main deity of that lineage was Rudra, the "wild aspect" of Shiva. It's curious enough that Shiva's the "destroyer." A "wild aspect"? I was really asking for it, to put it that way. My belief system was completely put to the test. Nevertheless, I've learned to accept, surrender...and be grateful, in spite of EVERYTHING. Why did I go back to my Christian root?? I'm with Jesus Christ today mainly because of the promise of paradise with a "tangible" God, not an invisible one. In our culture, death is the ultimate test. Most people have a way to reinvent themselves (or just to survive), regardless of the tragedies they go through. As long as we are alive, the show must go on; I feel that it's in my system, in my conscience, and I've never met one without it, unless one has some kind of extreme mental condition, I suppose. To cut a long story short, my afterlife in the Void changed everything for me, but it took 12 more years and many hardships for me to go back to my Christian root. In the end, I believe that the Holy Spirit was guiding me through it all, since the day one. Why do I believe this? I feel deep down that I have made a pact with Jesus Christ/God a long time ago, and "being shaken" was a way back. Here's the link to read about my afterlife posts: http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=243158 Thank you for sharing, Seeker79. Peace. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted March 1, 2013 #73 Share Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) The link you provided shows "a projection of the tesseract in three-space", not the actual object itself. If you prefer to avoid four-space, then show me a five-space or a six-space solid. I haven't avoided anything, you've ignored the point it is impossible. Edited March 1, 2013 by Rlyeh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamato Posted March 1, 2013 #74 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Not only that but Jesus (God?) needed help moving the cross the romans made. So, you accept the Biblical account. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted March 1, 2013 #75 Share Posted March 1, 2013 So, you accept the Biblical account. Gee I must also accept the myths of Hercules and Zeus as I've mentioned them in the past. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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