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Orcseeker

Propaganda in history

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http://www.theage.com.au/world/dont-treat-me-this-way-20130217-2el4e.html

An interesting article I read in the paper recently.

I wonder how much is still out there that is considered fact but is in fact propaganda. It's quite amazing this sort of thing has been around for so long. The lives of rulers and key figures in history kept a mystery... But for how long?

Any thoughts on this? Any more anecdotes on propaganda in history?

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I enjoyed this book. The link is to amazon but you can get this anywhere.

Millennium; A History of the Last Thousand Years [Paperback]

There is simply no other book like it--an Oxford scholar presents a genuine global history, spanning ten centuries and examining and weaving together events and movements in every part of the world. 400 photos and illustrations.

amazon

post-108562-0-45792700-1361377474_thumb.

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Funnily enough, cracked.com has a few quite good examples about just that. Not propaganda all the time, but deliberate omissions quite often, or just fallacies that we do believe for some reason. The three first articles are my preferred ones. Never knock a site like Cracked, they do source whatever they publish.

http://www.cracked.com/article_16101_the-5-most-ridiculous-lies-you-were-taught-in-history-class.html

http://www.cracked.com/article_20250_5-groundbreaking-firsts-that-your-history-books-lied-about.html

http://www.cracked.com/article_19864_6-ridiculous-lies-you-believe-about-founding-america.html

http://www.cracked.com/article_20186_6-ridiculous-myths-about-middle-ages-everyone-believes.html?wa_user1=5&wa_user2=History&wa_user3=article&wa_user4=recommended

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Almost all of my "history" I learned in school in the 70's was based on outright lies,propaganda,half truths, and omissions. I learned to read for myself and delve further into history to uncover some truths. Its simply amazing the way facts are distorted.

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Never knock a site like Cracked, they do source whatever they publish.

http://www.cracked.c...lied-about.html

Some of what they publish has been known for a long time, but some is wrong. In the link I left from your post is a long article about first woman in space being ridiculously attributed to Sally Ride, and they correct this by saying it was in fact Valentina Tereshkova. However, article takes for granted that first man to orbit Earth was John Glen, it was not, it was Yuri Gagarin, first man and first orbit. Sheppard was first American in space and he went straight up and down again, no orbit. It also says nazis put first rocket in space using V2. This is nonsense as V2 was much too small and underpowered to reach space. Wonder what else they have wrong.... perhaps there should be a site to expose their lies....

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Of course history books lie. Every war in history has at least 3 sides; the winning country, the losing country, and the people who were there. The winners have been the ones to write the history books.

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The victors always write history. Hell, even history between different groups of victors can vary greatly. In the US there is no mention of the Russian invasion of Japan during WWII, just like in Russia there was no mention of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in their history.

Why does the propaganda exist? Because the winning side needs to paint itself as the side of "good" and the others as the side of "evil". That is why we executed Japanese military officers after WWII for waterboarding, because it was "torture". However, our own forces employing the same technique are now using "enhanced interrogation". But to delve a bit further into it, if you admit your side did things that are extremely abhorrent, like the fire bombing of Tokyo, giving infected blankets to Native American tribes, then you don't inspire good little drones in school.

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51Imj2eUydL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_SX240_SY320_CR,0,0,240,320_SH20_OU01_.jpg

link d'amazon

Archaeological

discoveries have shed new light on the ancient texts that have survived, and this

has led to new interpretations of the past. We now know that the Roman Empire

brought much of the development of science and mathematics to a grinding halt

for about 1500 years, and that a great deal of what was known and achieved

before Rome took over had to be relearned and rediscovered much more

recently.

Barbarians (TV Series 2006– ) link

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The victors always write history. Hell, even history between different groups of victors can vary greatly. In the US there is no mention of the Russian invasion of Japan during WWII,

I bet most don't know that Russia invaded Poland the same time Germany did, but only Germany got bad press.

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I bet most don't know that Russia invaded Poland the same time Germany did, but only Germany got bad press.

This is common knowledge, not some secret history. To be exact, Poland was not invaded by Russia, it was invaded by the Soviet Union, led by the Georgian Stalin. Commander in chief of the invasion forces was Kliment Voroshilov, and main army commander was Semyon Timoshenko. Both were Ukranian. So, why keep using name of Russia, if not as propaganda for today......

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This is common knowledge, not some secret history. To be exact, Poland was not invaded by Russia, it was invaded by the Soviet Union, led by the Georgian Stalin. Commander in chief of the invasion forces was Kliment Voroshilov, and main army commander was Semyon Timoshenko. Both were Ukranian. So, why keep using name of Russia, if not as propaganda for today......

All of your facts are probably correct, but it doesn't change the fact that Russia invaded Poland.

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51Imj2eUydL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_SX240_SY320_CR,0,0,240,320_SH20_OU01_.jpg

link d'amazon

Barbarians (TV Series 2006– ) link

Actually I would argue that the scientific and cultural progress came to a halt with Alexander the Great.

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Of course history books lie. Every war in history has at least 3 sides; the winning country, the losing country, and the people who were there. The winners have been the ones to write the history books.

I'm more optimistic than that, and tend to think the idea that the victors write the hisory is cliched beyond tolerance. Historians go to sources from all sides, and although the local histories taught high schoolers may be distorted, scholars a few centuries down the road have a pretty good understanding of what was the big picture.

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Posted (edited)

All of your facts are probably correct, but it doesn't change the fact that Russia invaded Poland.

No, it was Soviet Union, not Russia. To say anything different is not semantics, it is distorting reality. Were soldiers of First Ukranian Front all Russians?. If modern state of Russia is to be blamed for this, then so should Ukraine. And though he was in Mexico, let us not forget the Pole Trotsky who led an attack on Poland in 1920, or Radek or founder of Cheka, Dzerzhinsky, all Poles. Nothing is black and white here. And not forget Polands behaviour during time of troubles......

edit for typos

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri
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What you are doing is the equivalent of insisting on "United States" when people say "America." The people and culture behind the invasion was Russia as it then existed. Saying, "The Soviet Union" is fine but denying it was Russia is misleading and indeed disingenuous.

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Posted (edited)

What you are doing is the equivalent of insisting on "United States" when people say "America." The people and culture behind the invasion was Russia as it then existed. Saying, "The Soviet Union" is fine but denying it was Russia is misleading and indeed disingenuous.

No! it is not disengenuous. The legal state was Soviet Union, not Russia. Bolsheviks were responsible, and many leading Bolsheviks were either not Russian at all, or only by passport. Was Stalin Russian? was Trotsky Russian? was Dzerzhinsky Russian? was Migoyan Russian? was Radek Russian? was Marx Russian? was Lenin Russian? was Sverdlov Russian? was Kamenev Russian? was Zinoviev Russian? was Beria Russian?. And if there is need to go back in history and discover more "evil" by Russia, were Romanovs Russian? answer, Nikolai II had only one part in 128 of Russian blood. So blame these Poles, Jews, Danes and Germans for the "evil" of Russia. Disingenuous, hardly...

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri
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Actually I would argue that the scientific and cultural progress came to a halt with Alexander the Great.

Genghis and his hordes applied the coup de grâce, practically snuffed out the Golden Age of Islam

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Well you maintained a fairly high standard of urban life in Western Europe -- what is now France, Spain and Italy -- until the Muslims swept over North Africa and cut Europe off from Egypt and Syria and Palestine. This was probably the true beginning of the "Dark Ages" (rather than the earlier immigrations of masses of "barbarians" who were not really all that barbaric).

But I look at the "Greek Miracle," and see that it effectively ended in Alexander's day. You have nothing later that is progress -- just status quo.

The Golden Age of Islam has been overblown. They transmitted Classical and Indian knowledge to Europe and added some mathematics. At least that is how I see it in very simplified terms.

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Posted (edited)

Well you maintained a fairly high standard of urban life in Western Europe -- what is now France, Spain and Italy -- until the Muslims swept over North Africa and cut Europe off from Egypt and Syria and Palestine. This was probably the true beginning of the "Dark Ages" (rather than the earlier immigrations of masses of "barbarians" who were not really all that barbaric).

But I look at the "Greek Miracle," and see that it effectively ended in Alexander's day. You have nothing later that is progress -- just status quo.

The Golden Age of Islam has been overblown. They transmitted Classical and Indian knowledge to Europe and added some mathematics. At least that is how I see it in very simplified terms.

Its just multiple 'Renaissance' instead of the just one that we recognise historically now, much of Greek survived thanks to Persia no less, not many wants to give the Islam influence a shred of positivity, even the HUns and Mongols are now known to be more 'sophisticated and cultured' than the 'reliable' scribes of those ages makes known.

The Islam Empire wasn't just a shell made up of murderous enemies of Christ, for a better part of a thousand years, it was the only safe haven for Science and Discovery anywhere on the face of the Earth

Islam was not responsible for the Dark Ages in Europe that much we know for sure.

~edit : afterthought

Edited by third_eye

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Actually I would argue that the scientific and cultural progress came to a halt with Alexander the Great.

I said as much to the slave I use to deliver these messages on papyri, before I walked down to the temple of Demeter to make my sacrifices to ensure a bountiful harvest.

At least that is how I see it in very simplified terms.

Well, I'm glad you have such 20/20 understanding of your own knowledge of history. You may want to keep that self-criticism in mind before you post again on complicated issues, like the Islamic contributions of math and science in the post-Classical era. Do you understand your own personal ignorance is not a universal condition -- because you don't know or understand something doesn't mean it's a vast, unsolved issue.

Hint: Algebra -- you know algebra, yes? -- is an Islamic word. Because they came up with it. Most of the named stars have Arabic names. Because they named them when most Europeans were unable to write. The speed of light was first calculated by an Arab in this period. The (original) learning of Arab doctors like Avicenna was in Europe for centuries.

Additionally, the downward spiral of quality of life of Western Europe, caused by political, social and economic factors working together, took a long time and started far earlier than anything Islamic. There's a large-ish set of books by a man called Gibbons called The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. You'l notice it's /not/ titled "The Muslims Ruined Everything for Europe One Afternoon in May."

I'm also curious what exactly you think Gaius Ibero/Gallo-Roman in the street was reguarly getting from Syria and Egypt that was so vital to his socio-political wellbeing that being cut off from it (apparently) instantly ruined his life?

Also: do you even know about Byzantium? As in the Greek-speaking, culturally Greek political system that survived the Western Roman Empire (because it was Eastern Half of the Empire) and was a source of learning and culture till.. what's the word? Today. Came up with (amongst others) Greek Fire*

Usually the sort of bunko that gets foisted here is the product of the misguided reasoning of an active (but unexperienced) mind, but this is just sheer, lazy ignorance. I cannot deplore it enough. Go visit a library, wouldya?

--Jaylemurph

*You can tell it's Greek because it's /right there/ in the name.

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