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Professor T

The EU is on the blitz against Eurosceptics.

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s**t prof, i've only been here a week, and i've broke half them rules myself!!

*slopes off out the back door hoping nobody spots him....*

Edited by shrooma
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(ps, didn't see the bit about them joining in, sorry!)

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Only a bit more than half of Brits aren't happy to be in the EU and most of those are Conservatives who can't stand the idea they have to share fame and fortune with Belgiums, Bulgarians and Lithuanians and most of these can't accept the idea they aren't allowed to have special privileges and pick and choose what part of the EU they want to have a piece of. No wonder the rest of Europe is also waving and saying good riddance.

If Britain withdrew from the EU, I'm not too convinced they would come out it unscathed. Here's an interesting perspective from Bloomberg looking at both eventualities.

Link

is that really what you believe, (both the tedious political stereotyping and the idea that the 'rest of Europe' is so blissfully happy with the European Empire), or is that just what you want to believe because it would be too uncomfortable to have to consider that the Great European Project may not be joyously popular with all its subjects, and indeed that it may be in the final stages of disintegration due to its internal corruption like the Roman empire in the 5th century? These "rest of Europe" who are "waving good riddance"; who are they, and why are they so blissfully happy to be part of the Great European Empire? They're in those wealthy countries that rule the Empire, and which the Empire is designed to benefit by extorting the smaller countries that were persuaded to join with promises of unlimited bailouts from the Central European Bank, aren't they. Very much, in fact, like the Roman empire. Except that the Roman empire actually interfered a lot less in the way its subject peoples went about their business.

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I would like to see a unified Europe, in some sort of confederation where they cooperate internationally and help serve as another offset to the great powers, but they do seem to be making a mess of it, forcing the poorer members into even greater poverty.

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is that really what you believe, (both the tedious political stereotyping and the idea that the 'rest of Europe' is so blissfully happy with the European Empire), or is that just what you want to believe because it would be too uncomfortable to have to consider that the Great European Project may not be joyously popular with all its subjects, and indeed that it may be in the final stages of disintegration due to its internal corruption like the Roman empire in the 5th century? These "rest of Europe" who are "waving good riddance"; who are they, and why are they so blissfully happy to be part of the Great European Empire? They're in those wealthy countries that rule the Empire, and which the Empire is designed to benefit by extorting the smaller countries that were persuaded to join with promises of unlimited bailouts from the Central European Bank, aren't they. Very much, in fact, like the Roman empire. Except that the Roman empire actually interfered a lot less in the way its subject peoples went about their business.

The EU isn't an Empire and not even close to the way the Romans controlled Europe. There hasn't been a war involving any of the EU members in 6 decades, which is almost unheard of in European history.

I think it would have been quite unrealistic to expect that all these nations made up of a mixture of different cultures and backgrounds, although mainly of Caucasian origin, would have managed to all come together, in unison, almost overnight, without coming across some difficulties. Give it time.

As I said, the ones who appear to be willing to give it a chance are,,,everyone except for the British Conservatives. Even the Germans and French are wiling to give it a go and tag along the smaller nations. Both have better economies than the British but don't appear to playing the precious part or moaning and groaning at each difficulty by threatening to leave every five seconds.

Hey, just my impression and what I read from an outside perspective. :yes:

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EU is simply trash union... i will explain but i have to go out, i'll just say it was EU who brought bad economy and poverty too many countries, we were somwhat forced too pay 100 billions right before crisis struck and our officals in government knew that crisis is right at the door step, but noooo after EU contract we must help Greece.. like others did but that's how we signed the death sentence for us... Months later we had shortage of funds in national budget and then hell begun, massive companies went broke, small companies went broke, and now it is getting worse 5 years later... Since we entered it nothing good came out of it..

I really hope entire system falls apart and we get our previous currency back, dream that shall never be real again :cry: . Please dont try to save EU like some experts said system was trash when it started and it's even now.. Gains - 0 ; losses - Big time..

So it had nothing to do with a the subprime speculative bubble which flooded the whole world market with useless paper derivatives :yes:

All the EU's fault.

A bit myopic in your analysis there.

Br Cornelius

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Dear BlackRed I cannot comment about France but I can certainly tell.you that germans moan a lot as well. Every time there is another billion euro payment to greece or another falling country the people do complain as germany pays more than other eu countries. The only difference is that the government doesnt really represent what the people think and keep pushing the idea of united europe. But that doesnt mean they.are happy about it

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I suspect the English wont be happy until we can get back to the age old pasttime of fighting the French and Germans Like in the good old days of yor :w00t:

Johnny foreigner.

Br Cornelius

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I suspect the English wont be happy until we can get back to the age old pasttime of fighting the French and Germans Like in the good old days of yor :w00t:

Johnny foreigner.

Br Cornelius

I won't mind being able to fight the Irish either. That's always good fun.

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I won't mind being able to fight the Irish either. That's always good fun.

"For the great Gaels of Ireland Are the men that God made mad, For all their wars are merry, And all their songs are sad."

- Gilbert K Chesterton "Ballad of the White Horse"

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I won't mind being able to fight the Irish either. That's always good fun.

Seems you got a bloody nose last time you tried that game :w00t:

Ireland the land of the insurgent.

Br Cornelius

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I suspect the English wont be happy until we can get back to the age old pasttime of fighting the French and Germans Like in the good old days of yor :w00t:

Johnny foreigner.

Br Cornelius

And your barbed comments are a typical example of the europhile tactic & no doubt the money will be pouring in to promote this kind of crap 'if' we ever head toward a democratic election on europe. In fact all it demonstrates to me is a mounting fear amongst the pro federalists, afterall €4.7bn a year is a big chunk out of the EU budget, they'll have too sign up a lot of basket case countries to fill the gap.

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It seems to me that the euroskeptics have done a very nice job of diverting attention away from the domestic mismanagement of the economy whilst conveniently forgetting the amount of benefit that has accrued to the domestic economy.

Why did the UK go into the Common Market in the first place, because of the collapse of their industry which came at the end of the Empire and the loss of most of their captive export market.

And yes, let us not forget that the EU has secured peace and security in Europe for over half a century. Do you really and honestly believe that Britain would be faring better outside of the EU in the face of a global economic crisis ?? If you do then I think you are very naive.

Selective recall is a talent to be found in abundance among the right wing ideologues.

Br Cornelius

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It seems to me that the euroskeptics have done a very nice job of diverting attention away from the domestic mismanagement of the economy whilst conveniently forgetting the amount of benefit that has accrued to the domestic economy.

Why did the UK go into the Common Market in the first place, because of the collapse of their industry which came at the end of the Empire and the loss of most of their captive export market.

And yes, let us not forget that the EU has secured peace and security in Europe for over half a century. Do you really and honestly believe that Britain would be faring better outside of the EU in the face of a global economic crisis ?? If you do then I think you are very naive.

Selective recall is a talent to be found in abundance among the right wing ideologues.

Br Cornelius

But more so amongst the Left wing ideologues. A classic example being the lefts continual rant that all the current problems the UK is going through is all the fault of those nasty bankers whilst selectively forgetting who it was who relaxed banking legislation (whilst in power), general mismanagement of the economy & then handing over 132 billion of tax payers money (plus knighthoods) to those same bankers.

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It seems to me that the euroskeptics have done a very nice job of diverting attention away from the domestic mismanagement of the economy whilst conveniently forgetting the amount of benefit that has accrued to the domestic economy.

.

the UK pays €15bn per year to the EU, of which we receive, in one form or another, €9bn back, which means it costs the UK taxpayer €6bn to remain in the EU, and if margaret thatcher hadn't negotgiated the 'british correction' it would cost another €4bn more, money that the NHS and education system could more than do with, so it's not really what you'd call an economic benefit to our economy.

i'm neither pro, nor anti EU, as it doesn't particularly impact the way I live my life to a great degree whether we're in it or not, i'm merely reporting facts.

It seems to me that the euroskeptics have done a very nice job of diverting attention away from the domestic mismanagement of the economy whilst conveniently forgetting the amount of benefit that has accrued to the domestic economy.

.

the UK pays €15bn per year to the EU, of which we receive, in one form or another, €9bn back, which means it costs the UK taxpayer €6bn to remain in the EU, and if margaret thatcher hadn't negotgiated the 'british correction' it would cost another €4bn more, money that the NHS and education system could more than do with, so it's not really what you'd call an economic benefit to our economy.

i'm neither pro, nor anti EU, as it doesn't particularly impact the way I live my life to a great degree whether we're in it or not, i'm merely reporting facts.

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From the article (but entirely ignored or misrepresented by Euorsceptics):

"...for example, by providing facts and figures to deconstructing myths."

Most, although not all, Eurosceptics take their lead (as well as all of their "knowledge" about the EU) from the rantings of the Tabloid Press. it is high time that the EU got the facts and figures out into the Public Domain in an as accessible way as possible.

Why does anyone fear real facts and data? Sure it would shut - up some of the more Rabid anti-EU sloganistas, and sound - bite techs who undermine debate by making unsupportable, unverifiable statements. Perhaps that is why this editorial in The Telegraph is being almost criminally distorted, and made to seem that it supports their own, limited, views.

Edited by keithisco
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Why did the UK go into the Common Market in the first place, because of the collapse of their industry which came at the end of the Empire and the loss of most of their captive export market.

.

britain joined the EU in 1972, decades after our empire 'collapsed', and we joined to secure import rights for goods rather than for exports, which have always been strong in the european market, and currently stand at €12bn per month.

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it is high time that the EU got the facts and figures out into the Public Domain in an as accessible way as possible.

Why does anyone fear real facts and data?

.

I tend to get my info directly from the EU website.

something to do with monkeys and organ grinders.....

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From the article (but entirely ignored or misrepresented by Euorsceptics):

"...for example, by providing facts and figures to deconstructing myths."

Most, although not all, Eurosceptics take their lead (as well as all of their "knowledge" about the EU) from the rantings of the Tabloid Press. it is high time that the EU got the facts and figures out into the Public Domain in an as accessible way as possible.

That always has been the role of the Ministry of Propaganda, yes, it's true.

I wonder if they've thought about calling it the Ministry of Truth? That has a certain ring to it.

Edited by Lord Vetinari

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But more so amongst the Left wing ideologues. A classic example being the lefts continual rant that all the current problems the UK is going through is all the fault of those nasty bankers whilst selectively forgetting who it was who relaxed banking legislation (whilst in power), general mismanagement of the economy & then handing over 132 billion of tax payers money (plus knighthoods) to those same bankers.

Did I not point out that domestic mismanagement was the root of the UK's evils - so whats your point exactly ?

Br Cornelius

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.

the UK pays €15bn per year to the EU, of which we receive, in one form or another, €9bn back, which means it costs the UK taxpayer €6bn to remain in the EU, and if margaret thatcher hadn't negotgiated the 'british correction' it would cost another €4bn more, money that the NHS and education system could more than do with, so it's not really what you'd call an economic benefit to our economy.

i'm neither pro, nor anti EU, as it doesn't particularly impact the way I live my life to a great degree whether we're in it or not, i'm merely reporting facts.

The British only got their rebate because they refused to allow the regions to draw down the structural funding they were entitled to, they did this to undermine any possibility of an industrial resurgence in the North of England and hence a counter balance to the torie stronghold in the home counties. Remember that if, due to the dire economic state of the country at the time, we had have availed of all of the structural funding we were entitled to (as a disadvantaged region) we would probably have been net beneficiaries.

Of course, your analysis misses the point that direct taxes and costs into and out of the EU doesn't account for the net benefit to the UK economy from integration into the common market - which is far more than €4billion.

The decline of British Industry and the loss of Empire are more than slightly coincident, with India gaining independence as late as 1947 and other countries afterwards. The first application to join the EEC was in 1963 so there had been about 10years of decline before Macmillan panicked and decided to petition for membership.

Cabinet papers show that Harold MacMillan applied to join the EEC because he could see that the British were falling behind in economic growth;

The Prime Minister, Harold Macmillan, was alarmed at the rapid economic advances made by France and Germany and sought to join the EEC.

http://www.nationala...-late-entry.htm

Edward Heath gave the reason for joining the EEC as;

He said: "It is going to be a gradual development and obviously things are not going to happen overnight.

"But from the point of view of our everyday lives we will find there is a great cross-fertilisation of knowledge and information, not only in business but in every other sphere.

"And this will enable us to be more efficient and more competitive in gaining more markets not only in Europe but in the rest of the world."

DeGaul, rather wisely as it turns out, realized that the UK was only in it for selfish reasons and vetoed their application;

General de Gaulle accused Britain of a "deep-seated hostility" towards European construction.

He said London showed a "lack of interest" in the Common Market and would require a "radical transformation" before joining the EEC.

"The present Common Market is incompatible with the economy, as it now stands, of Britain," he said.

He went on to list a number of aspects of Britain's economy, from working practices to agriculture, which he said made Britain incompatible with Europe.

http://news.bbc.co.u...000/4187714.stm

So all this talk of the UK doing just fine outside of the EEC is shown to be utter bull**** when the real situation at the time is looked at. I doubt they would have done any better in the intervening years if they had have remained outside. Rosy Glasses and fogged hindsight is all the Euroskeptic have to offer.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Dear BlackRed I cannot comment about France but I can certainly tell.you that germans moan a lot as well. Every time there is another billion euro payment to greece or another falling country the people do complain as germany pays more than other eu countries. The only difference is that the government doesnt really represent what the people think and keep pushing the idea of united europe. But that doesnt mean they.are happy about it

Have you got evidence/links showing how unhappy the Germans have become? The info I have shows differently. Then again, it's obvious Germans aren't happy about forking out to bail out the Greeks.

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The EU isn't an Empire and not even close to the way the Romans controlled Europe. There hasn't been a war involving any of the EU members in 6 decades, which is almost unheard of in European history.

I think it would have been quite unrealistic to expect that all these nations made up of a mixture of different cultures and backgrounds, although mainly of Caucasian origin, would have managed to all come together, in unison, almost overnight, without coming across some difficulties. Give it time.

As I said, the ones who appear to be willing to give it a chance are,,,everyone except for the British Conservatives. Even the Germans and French are wiling to give it a go and tag along the smaller nations. Both have better economies than the British but don't appear to playing the precious part or moaning and groaning at each difficulty by threatening to leave every five seconds.

Hey, just my impression and what I read from an outside perspective. :yes:

Are you sure you know what you're talking about ?..France & Germany are the two richest in the E.U. and the rest are constantly having a moan about having to cut spending,Spain,Italy,Greece, are going down the pan,and they're all blaming Britain for not giving more cash to support their up keep.I am NOT a Conservative but I and 1000's like me want out,we've had enough of supporting lost causes.Come and live here for a while then you can start criticising.
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Are you sure you know what you're talking about ?..France & Germany are the two richest in the E.U. and the rest are constantly having a moan about having to cut spending,Spain,Italy,Greece, are going down the pan,and they're all blaming Britain for not giving more cash to support their up keep.I am NOT a Conservative but I and 1000's like me want out,we've had enough of supporting lost causes.Come and live here for a while then you can start criticising.

LOL, basically your whole rant went around in circles and eventually landed on what I said. more or less. Of course France, Germany and everyone has a moan about paying more taxes or cutting spending. That's what we all do. But show me evidence where the majority of the other populations want to pull out. I bet there is none because they know the alternatives are far less appealing.

Edited by BlackRedLittleDevil

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LOL, basically your whole rant went around in circles and eventually landed on what I said. more or less. Of course France, Germany and everyone has a moan about paying more taxes or cutting spending. That's what we all do. But show me evidence where the majority of the other populations want to pull out. I bet there is none because they know the alternatives are far less appealing.

No, france & Germany wouldn't want to pull out, would they, (or their governments wouldn't, and their Business leaders, which is not necessarily the same as how the general population feel), since the EU is designed to serve the interests of the Big Powerful countries that are at the heart of the European Project. One way in which it does that is by extorting the less wealthy countries. I don't know what Publick opinion in France & Germany may feel about the European Superstate Project, but according to what was said above not even everyone there seems overwhelmingly enthusiastic.

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