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Professor T

The EU is on the blitz against Eurosceptics.

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Unfortunately I do not accept any of you statements as fair reflections of the facts. The EU played a significant and dominant part in maintaining peace across Europe but had no democratic remit to intervene in the sovereign states of former Yugoslavia. Would you have had the EU invade Yugoslavia ?? I am certain you would not.

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Br Cornelius

No, it was left to NATO, meaning once again the US being persuaded to join in a European conflict, as usual.

The EU has a remit to regulate trade and disputes between its member states, and it has done so admirably. It has created a fair and equitable system of justice which is binding on all member states and which prevents illegal exploitation of a weaker state by a stronger one.

Br Cornelius

instead, the European Central Bank can blackmail weaker states by threatening to withhold bailouts unless the weaker states do just what the Central Bank (representing, of course, the Big Powerful countries) tell them to. No, that isn't exploitation of a weaker state by a stronger one in any way, shape or form, is it, no. :unsure2:

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No, it was left to NATO, meaning once again the US being persuaded to join in a European conflict, as usual.

instead, the European Central Bank can blackmail weaker states by threatening to withhold bailouts unless the weaker states do just what the Central Bank (representing, of course, the Big Powerful countries) tell them to. No, that isn't exploitation of a weaker state by a stronger one in any way, shape or form, is it, no. :unsure2:

So you do advocate the EU invading a sovereign state to settle internal disputes - maybe your'd like to write to the commission and suggest they allocate that right to themselves. On closer thought I doubt you would advocate that considering your general stance on the EU. So damn consistent.

You see NATO actually had that remit.

Do you want Europe to have a standing army ?? that's where your thinking leads to.

Do you understand what would have happened to those self same states if they had have had to have gone directly to the IMF ? The outcome would have been entirely worse. Do you think that a country which willfully bankrupts itself has the right to dictate terms to the countries/banks/federations which are assisting it in not descending into chaos ??

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Except of course we do get a chance to vote them out every five years (not that theres much between them these days).

(p.s. you've used the term 'johnny foreigner' twice now & to be honest it's starting to sound a bit racist)

Unfortunately it perfectly describes where most of the Euroskeptics are coming from, an innate sense of superiority and racism.

You have the same right to elect MEP's and your sovereign Government has the right to recall its commissioners if it feels they are not acting in their interests. However most power rests in the hands of Civil servants over which you have little power on a domestic or European level.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Unfortunately it perfectly describes where most of the Euroskeptics are coming from, an innate sense of superiority and racism.

You have the same right to elect MEP's and your sovereign Government has the right to recall its commissioners if it feels they are not acting in their interests. However most power rests in the hands of Civil servants over which you have little power on a domestic or European level.

Br Cornelius

Well, as somebody with a left leaning ideology i suppose it was only a matter of time before you would associate the subject of racism with a total unconnected subject.

It's what the left do & I suspect that it's a message that a large chunk of the money mentioned in the OP will be designated at pushing.

Remember, definition of a racist ..'somebody who ls winning an argument with a liberal'

Edited by itsnotoutthere
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If the cap fits ....

Br Cornelius

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Unfortunately it perfectly describes where most of the Euroskeptics are coming from, an innate sense of superiority and racism.

You have the same right to elect MEP's and your sovereign Government has the right to recall its commissioners if it feels they are not acting in their interests. However most power rests in the hands of Civil servants over which you have little power on a domestic or European level.

Br Cornelius

Ah, the Racism card has come out. Is there an equivalent of Godwin's law for deployment of the Racism card?

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Ah, the Racism card has come out. Is there an equivalent of Godwin's law for deployment of the Racism card?

Johnny Foreigner - get off my country !!!

When you all can admit that the Eu has been generally good for the UK economy, I can start to believe that I am having a rational debate with people who are open to evidence. Until then, all I see is prejudice.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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So you do advocate the EU invading a sovereign state to settle internal disputes - maybe your'd like to write to the commission and suggest they allocate that right to themselves. On closer thought I doubt you would advocate that considering your general stance on the EU. So damn consistent.

You see NATO actually had that remit.

Do you want Europe to have a standing army ?? that's where your thinking leads to.

Br Cornelius

So the EU had absolutely no power to do anything to prevent wars, except to discourage Germany from invading France yet again. You say it yourself. The EU's claim to have secured Peace in Europe is really very limited, and pretty shallow, since with the overriding geopolitical situation, that was never likely to happen even if the EU hadn't been there. And if they could do nothing about anywhere that was in Europe but was not part of the Empire, it was hardly Peace with Honour, was it? It was Peace by Looking the Other Way and saying it was Nothing to Do with Them.

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Johnny Foreigner - get off my country !!!

When you all can admit that the Eu has been generally good for the UK economy, I can start to believe that I am having a rational debate with people who are open to evidence. Until then, all I see is prejudice.

Br Cornelius

sorry, Brother, but if you're just going to equate criticism of the EU with racism, then there's nothing more to say.

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So the EU had absolutely no power to do anything to prevent wars, except to discourage Germany from invading France yet again. You say it yourself. The EU's claim to have secured Peace in Europe is really very limited, and pretty shallow, since with the overriding geopolitical situation, that was never likely to happen even if the EU hadn't been there. And if they could do nothing about anywhere that was in Europe but was not part of the Empire, it was hardly Peace with Honour, was it? It was Peace by Looking the Other Way and saying it was Nothing to Do with Them.

it has prevented wars within the limits of its legal powers by offering fairness and dispute resolution mechanisms.

It cannot invade sovereign foreign countries.

It has secured peace through fairness, not intervention.

SIMPLE.

Br Cornelius

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So the EU had absolutely no power to do anything to prevent wars, except to discourage Germany from invading France yet again. You say it yourself. The EU's claim to have secured Peace in Europe is really very limited, and pretty shallow, since with the overriding geopolitical situation, that was never likely to happen even if the EU hadn't been there. And if they could do nothing about anywhere that was in Europe but was not part of the Empire, it was hardly Peace with Honour, was it? It was Peace by Looking the Other Way and saying it was Nothing to Do with Them.

As you may have realized by now - you cannot fight a country to peace, or have you learned nothing from the UK's little misadventures of late in the middle east.

If the former states of Yugoslavia had have been member states of the EU then the EU would have intervened to stop what happened. It had no such right or powers.

In the future, conflicts will be resolved through mediation and negation rather than tank and gun. The stakes are entirely to high to allow anything else.

Br Cornelius

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Johnny Foreigner - get off my country !!!

When you all can admit that the Eu has been generally good for the UK economy, I can start to believe that I am having a rational debate with people who are open to evidence. Until then, all I see is prejudice.

Br Cornelius

As I said ...'it's what the left do'. Quelle surprise

Edited by itsnotoutthere

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sorry, Brother, but if you're just going to equate criticism of the EU with racism, then there's nothing more to say.

It's a common tactic to try & gain the 'moral high ground' which I find becomes less effective the more it's used. And we'll be seeing more of it as we go along the road to a referendum.

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Can I ask a simple side question.

What do the Euroskeptics feel about independence for Scotland, Wales and Northern ireland ?

Br Cornelius

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Hmmm, EU is democratic is it, so, who of you Europersons voted for Barroso or Van Rompoy or any EU commisar commisioner. And, when there is referendum in some eurocountry and vote is against EU, why is there then another vote shortly after to obtain "correct" result? how is this democratic?

As an idle speculation from an outside, though informed perspective, I can see a possible future where UK, an independant Flanders, Nederlands and the Nordic countries will form a block of their own. Who knows, anything seems possible in EU madhouse, perhaps one day you will need a friendly bear will help you in your time of distress. :-*

e62f9252071f.gif Oh, excuse me, nothing to see here, simply protecting my post from contamination :)

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I suspect the reason why our Euroskeptics haven't rushed forward to answer this uncomfortable question is because the type of person who believe that its the right of UK to be independent, are also exactly the same people who would never offer the same choice to their neighbouring countries. I wonder what strange quirk of logic allows that ?

Br Cornelius

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I suspect the reason why our Euroskeptics haven't rushed forward to answer this uncomfortable question is because the type of person who believe that its the right of UK to be independent, are also exactly the same people who would never offer the same choice to their neighbouring countries. I wonder what strange quirk of logic allows that ?

Br Cornelius

That is purely your assumption. Personally i'd vote in favour of independance for Scotland Wales & northern Ireland, as long as they didn't expect the English taxpayer to fund that independance.

Somehow i don't think they would last long if they had to survive on the tax revenues they raised from their own population

e.g. Quote :-

Plaid Cymru Treasury spokesperson, Jonathan Edwards MP

“Wales will be hit particularly hard as a far greater percentage of our population are recipients of Tax Credits and/or benefits.

“Therefore, the real-term cut in these entitlements will inevitably have a dramatic effect on the amount of money spent in local economic across Wales''

and he's just talking about the recent cuts in benefits, so how do you think they would fair without any revenue from the UK taxpayer?

Edited by itsnotoutthere

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Can I ask a simple side question.

What do the Euroskeptics feel about independence for Scotland, Wales and Northern ireland ?

Br Cornelius

my stance on the issue is this, i'd rather they remained members of the United Kingdom, but like we see with Scotland, they can call a referendum and vote on the issue, i have no problem with self determination.

its just a shame we never got the referendum on our continued membership of the EU. but with the polls showing just 33% would vote to remain members. it has the politicians running scared.

to bring it back to the EU. why doesn't the EU hold in/out referendums in every member country. and see how they fare. if the EU is as good as we are told there should be nothing to fear.

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Can I ask a simple side question.

What do the Euroskeptics feel about independence for Scotland, Wales and Northern ireland ?

Br Cornelius

By all means let them, if only to stop them moaning. (NI of course is a different question, as long as the majority want to remain part of the UK it should stay). but if the majority of the Scots or the Welsh ever wanted to (and it doesn't seem very likely), by all means let them. And as long, of course, as they don't expect England to continue to support them.

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the type of person who believe that its the right of UK to be independent

It's the right of the UK to be independent.

That is purely your assumption. Personally i'd vote in favour of independance for Scotland Wales & northern Ireland, as long as they didn't expect the English taxpayer to fund that independance.

I'd vote in favour of English independence. I don't give a stuff about Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Edited by TheLastLazyGun
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I suspect the reason why our Euroskeptics haven't rushed forward to answer this uncomfortable question is because the type of person who believe that its the right of UK to be independent, are also exactly the same people who would never offer the same choice to their neighbouring countries. I wonder what strange quirk of logic allows that ?

Br Cornelius

So you are criticising people for not wanting to allow others to decide the fate of their own nation. Pot calling the kettle black.

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So you are criticising people for not wanting to allow others to decide the fate of their own nation. Pot calling the kettle black.

I am criticising the type of people who would deny self determination to the British Regions but expect it for the UK. Last time I looked the only party with that stance was the conservatives.

Br Cornelius

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I am criticising the type of people who would deny self determination to the British Regions but expect it for the UK. Last time I looked the only party with that stance was the conservatives.

Br Cornelius

has David Cameron forbidden Alex Salmon from holding this referendum he's been talking about for so long? He's tried to dissuade him from it, but that's not the same as denying him the right. New Labour might well have done so, though, being as control-obssessed as they were.

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I am criticising the type of people who would deny self determination to the British Regions but expect it for the UK. Last time I looked the only party with that stance was the conservatives.

Br Cornelius

From wiki :-

In its manifesto for the 2007 Scottish Parliament election, the SNP pledged to hold an independence referendum by 2010.[24][25] After winning the election,[26] the SNP-controlled Scottish Government published a White Paper entitled Choosing Scotland's Future, which outlined options for the future of Scotland, including independence.[27][28]

At the time, Scottish Labour, the Scottish Conservatives and Scottish Liberal Democrats opposed a referendum offering independence as an option. Then Prime Minister Gordon Brown also publicly attacked the independence option.[29] Based on a subsequent debate in the Scottish Parliament,[30] the three main parties opposed to independence formed the Calman commission.[31][32] This reviewed devolution and considered all constitutional options bar independence.[33]

Careful, your prejudices are showing or is it just a selective memory?

Edited by itsnotoutthere
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I suspect the reason why our Euroskeptics haven't rushed forward to answer this uncomfortable question is because the type of person who believe that its the right of UK to be independent, are also exactly the same people who would never offer the same choice to their neighbouring countries. I wonder what strange quirk of logic allows that ?

Br Cornelius

What most of you UK Europeans seem to have forgotten is that When the UK joined the common market/EU all of the trade ties with the commonwealth were severed.. And I for one remember the resession we suffered here in New Zealand because we could no longer export any product into Europe...

The answer to your question is simple imo, The Euopean union has far to many strings attached.. Far to many Rules and regulations to be adhered too. It is nighmarish to think that these burocrats in Brussels have so much power over Europe imo.. These laws and regulations and financial strings attached to trade and any transaction are actually more like handcuffs than strings from my pospective here about as far away from Europe as you can get..

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