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Professor T

The EU is on the blitz against Eurosceptics.

166 posts in this topic

I think that most folks have been misguided by a powerful media with a conservative agenda - but that just my opinion.

Most people are happy to ignore the benefits they have gained from membership of the EU in the face of a global economic catastrophy which was precipitated by massive deregulation of the financial markets. This was not caused by the EU, it was caused by a faulty economic philosphy that swept the world. Mis-attribution is what is going on here, and its a fine slight of hand from the Euroskeptic media which has caused it.

Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

First off, can I just say, despite what Red/Black says, nobody is 'ganging up' on you. You have your opinions & you put your points across forcefully as no doubt you'd expect others to do, afterall this is a debating forum & thats what makes it fun.

Secondly regarding your analysis above, have you considered that some of us 'euroskeptics' held these opinions way before the financial crisis hit?

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First off, can I just say, despite what Red/Black says, nobody is 'ganging up' on you. You have your opinions & you put your points across forcefully as no doubt you'd expect others to do, afterall this is a debating forum & thats what makes it fun.

Secondly regarding your analysis above, have you considered that some of us 'euroskeptics' held these opinions way before the financial crisis hit?

I can look after myself :D

However the popularity of the EU among the general public has declined in lock step with the recent economic downtown, so you die hard euroskeptics aren't the real issue here.

Br Cornelius

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I can look after myself :D

However the popularity of the EU among the general public has declined in lock step with the recent economic downtown, so you die hard euroskeptics aren't the real issue here.

Br Cornelius

In which case i'll butt out :lol:

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It sucks to be Scottish in this day and age.

Think about it: say a majority of Scots want to leave GB and become independent, fair enough if that's what they want. But as soon as they do so, they're either going to apply to the EU or be absorbed automatically, giving up the 'independence' they seem to want so badly.

It makes literally no sense from a Nationalist's point of view :D Comical, almost.

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It sucks to be Scottish in this day and age.

Think about it: say a majority of Scots want to leave GB and become independent, fair enough if that's what they want. But as soon as they do so, they're either going to apply to the EU or be absorbed automatically, giving up the 'independence' they seem to want so badly.

It makes literally no sense from a Nationalist's point of view :D Comical, almost.

Dont worry, it has been made clear that any Region ceding from the Mother Nation, will have to re-apply to become a member of the EU, whether it be Scotland or Catalonia (Spain). There is no "Free Pass" to membership, and negotiations will take several years, after which you should get another referendum asking you if you want to join the EU.

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Dont worry, it has been made clear that any Region ceding from the Mother Nation, will have to re-apply to become a member of the EU, whether it be Scotland or Catalonia (Spain). There is no "Free Pass" to membership, and negotiations will take several years, after which you should get another referendum asking you if you want to join the EU.

This is isn't completely true. This theory was printed by the Scotsman, then reprinted by the Telegraph, and based on a supposed letter sent by the EU.

Exclusive: Scotsman EU membership story "incorrect" says EC

Reports in the Scottish media that the European Commission has sent a letter to the House of Lords claiming an independent Scotland would have to re-apply for EU membership, have been dismissed by a spokesman for EC President José Manuel Barroso.

The story, which originally appeared in the Scotsman newspaper, claimed that a House of Lords committee had been sent an official letter that contradicted SNP claims that an independent Scotland would remain a member of the EU.

However a spokesman for Mr Barroso described the claims made in the article as “incorrect” and insisted no decision had yet been made on how to respond to the committee’s request to the EC President for a statement on an independent Scotland’s EU status.

Responding to a question from Newsnet Scotland, the spokesman said: "President Barroso has been invited to contribute to the House of Lords inquiry on the economic implications for the United Kingdom of Scottish Independence. The President has not yet replied.

http://www.newsnetsc...orrectq-says-ec

The comparison to Catalonia isn't really an accurate one, considering Catalonia independence would result in an entire new country and government being formed.

And the fact of the matter is that we cannot state for sure either way, whether or not Scotland would be instantly accepted, simply because there is no precedent, that I am aware of. Which is why I worded my post as 'they're either going to apply to the EU or be absorbed automatically'. We simply do not know.

Edited by ExpandMyMind

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Not really sure if Nato kept any peace in Europe simply by occupying BRD. Those Nato troops were, in a way, and debatable of course, an irrelevance, simply a tripwire, not much more. Most would have been nuked in their barracks even before they knew any war was coming, and Third Shock Army would have been on English channel in a few days. Never be known for certain of course, but hairnet wearing Germans, drug addled Americans and British with rubbish equipment would not have withstood the mighty armies of ..... er, well, you get the picture :)

However, one thing that is very clear, is that EU had nothing to do with keeping any peace in Europe, nothing, nada, zip. Nyet, nyet nyet. BTW, I write about the military matters from experience

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Not really sure if Nato kept any peace in Europe simply by occupying BRD. Those Nato troops were, in a way, and debatable of course, an irrelevance, simply a tripwire, not much more. Most would have been nuked in their barracks even before they knew any war was coming, and Third Shock Army would have been on English channel in a few days. Never be known for certain of course, but hairnet wearing Germans, drug addled Americans and British with rubbish equipment would not have withstood the mighty armies of ..... er, well, you get the picture :)

However, one thing that is very clear, is that EU had nothing to do with keeping any peace in Europe, nothing, nada, zip. Nyet, nyet nyet. BTW, I write about the military matters from experience

Peace is only about military matters when everything else fails - the EU prevented that failure to negotate a peace in the first place.

Br Cornelius

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Is this kind of re-writing of history and the surely deliberate ignoring of the fact that the EU and NATO are quite seperate organisations an example of the kind of rebuttal of myths and lies that the Imperial Ministry of Information is proposing to come up with? If it is, it would surely provide further evidence that Nineteen Eighty-Four ought to be moved from the Fiction to the Non-Fiction shelves. Are we next going to be told that NATO never in fact existed, or that United States forces were never actually present in Europe post-1945, and it was in fact the Empire that held the Russian Bear at bay for 40 years? That the Warsaw Pact never tried anything because it was so afraid of all the Directives that would come its way from Brussels and Strasbourg?

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EU was not a player in the game, it was of no consequence. Soviet Union did not need to talk to EU, only US. If EU was military structure during cold war, which it was not in any way, they would have been treated like some naughty child and laughed at. USAREUR, Northag and Centag were nothing to do with EU. Take them out of picture and what would have kept peace in Europe, perhaps the Belgian bicycle troops? (No offense to Belgians). The reality is that what kept peace in Europe, and the world of course, is the principle of MAD, not the self indulgent madness from EU.

Not to anybody, simply musing. In my darker moments I see myself on top of Harz mountains, looking over the North German plain and seeing the mushroom clouds rising into to sky from Fulda in the South, up to Minden, Munster, the large concentrations around Braunschweig, (rather close for comfort). Then to see the hordes of DDR cannon fodder, ooops, I mean glorious fellow anti-fascist warriors, testing the way. Then, upon the heroic bones of our fallen Warsaw Pact comrades, our mighty tank armies of superior T-64 and T-80, crushing the US cowards and their worthless poodles as we drive victoriously to....... then I wake up...

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri

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I think that most folks have been misguided by a powerful media with a conservative agenda - but that just my opinion.

Most people are happy to ignore the benefits they have gained from membership of the EU in the face of a global economic catastrophy which was precipitated by massive deregulation of the financial markets. This was not caused by the EU, it was caused by a faulty economic philosphy that swept the world. Mis-attribution is what is going on here, and its a fine slight of hand from the Euroskeptic media which has caused it.

Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

who is ignoring the benefits of the EU, the skeptics on here me included we have always acknowledged benefits with the main reference being to trade, but the EU in many skeptics minds is that they've gone to far. why couldnt the EU have just stayed a trading block, like what we see with NAFTA. instead we've seen the UK handing over 52 million pounds a day. being dragooned from treaty to treaty giving the EU even greater power with each one. just imagine the EU, was just a trading block, with no freedom of movement, no red tape, for stupid things such as you cannot sell misshaped fruit or vegetables, remember the case of the Kiwi fruits, when under EU rules if a kiwi fruit is under 62g it cannot be sold. i mean c'mon, its all gone horribly wrong. - since the recession the EU has done away with the misshapen rules, but just think from 1992 to 2008 under EU rules you were not allowed to sell misshapen fruit or vegetables. so a wonky carrot or straight bananas etc..were banned. leading to an estimated 20% of fruit and vegetables across the EU being banned. just madness. but like i posted just the other day about the EU passing new rules on jigsaw puzzles. they love meddling.

as for peace in europe look no further than Pax Americana. Since the end of world war II America was pulling the levers with most european countries paying back loans from the Marshall aid program, upto the year 2008 most european countries where still paying back loans (not linked to Marshall aid) to America. the influence cannot be ignored.

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who is ignoring the benefits of the EU, the skeptics on here me included we have always acknowledged benefits with the main reference being to trade, but the EU in many skeptics minds is that they've gone to far. why couldnt the EU have just stayed a trading block, like what we see with NAFTA. instead we've seen the UK handing over 52 million pounds a day. being dragooned from treaty to treaty giving the EU even greater power with each one. just imagine the EU, was just a trading block, with no freedom of movement, no red tape, for stupid things such as you cannot sell misshaped fruit or vegetables, remember the case of the Kiwi fruits, when under EU rules if a kiwi fruit is under 62g it cannot be sold. i mean c'mon, its all gone horribly wrong. - since the recession the EU has done away with the misshapen rules, but just think from 1992 to 2008 under EU rules you were not allowed to sell misshapen fruit or vegetables. so a wonky carrot or straight bananas etc..were banned. leading to an estimated 20% of fruit and vegetables across the EU being banned. just madness. but like i posted just the other day about the EU passing new rules on jigsaw puzzles. they love meddling.

as for peace in europe look no further than Pax Americana. Since the end of world war II America was pulling the levers with most european countries paying back loans from the Marshall aid program, upto the year 2008 most european countries where still paying back loans (not linked to Marshall aid) to America. the influence cannot be ignored.

Can you show me the exact treaty clause which prohibited the selling of small Kiwi's. Last time I looked these supposed EU restrictions were fabrications of the rabbid Euroskeptic press.

Prove me wrong.

Br Cornelius

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Can you show me the exact treaty clause which prohibited the selling of small Kiwi's. Last time I looked these supposed EU restrictions were fabrications of the rabbid Euroskeptic press.

Prove me wrong.

Br Cornelius

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2199214/EU-rules-ban-sale-of-too-small-kiwis.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1029715/EU-forces-market-trader-pulp-thousands-kiwi-fruit-theyre-ONE-MILLIMETRE-small.html

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Can you show me the exact treaty clause which prohibited the selling of small Kiwi's. Last time I looked these supposed EU restrictions were fabrications of the rabbid Euroskeptic press.

Prove me wrong.

Br Cornelius

its near impossible for me to find the exact treaty clause, how much time would that take, but how will the BBC as a source suffice. am sure more than acceptable.

The European Commission has scrapped controversial rules that prevent oddly-sized or misshapen fruit and vegetables being sold in Europe

The EU's agriculture commissioner called it "a new dawn for the curvy cucumber and the knobbly carrot".

Marketing standards for 26 types of produce were scrapped, in a drive to cut bureaucracy.

The rules were introduced to ensure common EU standards, but are regarded by critics as examples of Euro-madness.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8127461.stm

there are restrictions that still apply, to the following.

  • Apples
  • Citrus fruit
  • Kiwi fruit
  • Lettuces
  • Peaches and nectarines
  • Pears
  • Strawberries
  • Sweet peppers
  • Table grapes
  • Tomatoes

The rules will remain unchanged for another 10 types of produce, which account for 75% of EU fruit and vegetable trade: apples, citrus fruit, kiwi fruit, lettuces, peaches and nectarines, pears, strawberries, sweet peppers, table grapes and tomatoes.

you finished your post with prove you wrong. just have. B) when are you going to realise i dont have to tell lies, picking the EU apart is easy, just need to be on the ball.

Edited by stevewinn
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Can you show me the exact treaty clause which prohibited the selling of small Kiwi's. Last time I looked these supposed EU restrictions were fabrications of the rabbid Euroskeptic press.

Prove me wrong.

Br Cornelius

All residents of New Zealand for sale or hire throughout the Empire must be no less than 1.6m in height.

~ EU Directive 466464/238833/A/6644 Sub-Paragraph II, 2006.

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All residents of New Zealand for sale or hire throughout the Empire must be no less than 1.6m in height.

~ EU Directive 466464/238833/A/6644 Sub-Paragraph II, 2006.

Lol, I just Googled that to see if it was the real deal, then realised my folly (and slower than I'd like to admit).

:D

Nice one. Looks like I've ingested a wee bit too much fluoride in my day...

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All residents of New Zealand for sale or hire throughout the Empire must be no less than 1.6m in height.

~ EU Directive 466464/238833/A/6644 Sub-Paragraph II, 2006.

Watch it!! Mr T is lining up the All Blacks to ruck and maul you into the ground.

Edited by Black Red Devil
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They're expressing their opinions about the EU.

Br's not trolling for the EU.. He's just incredibly misguided about what most folk here think about the EU.

It's OK mate I was just joking. Not so sure about the misguided part though.

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its near impossible for me to find the exact treaty clause, how much time would that take, but how will the BBC as a source suffice. am sure more than acceptable.

The European Commission has scrapped controversial rules that prevent oddly-sized or misshapen fruit and vegetables being sold in Europe

The EU's agriculture commissioner called it "a new dawn for the curvy cucumber and the knobbly carrot".

Marketing standards for 26 types of produce were scrapped, in a drive to cut bureaucracy.

The rules were introduced to ensure common EU standards, but are regarded by critics as examples of Euro-madness.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8127461.stm

there are restrictions that still apply, to the following.

  • Apples
  • Citrus fruit
  • Kiwi fruit
  • Lettuces
  • Peaches and nectarines
  • Pears
  • Strawberries
  • Sweet peppers
  • Table grapes
  • Tomatoes

The rules will remain unchanged for another 10 types of produce, which account for 75% of EU fruit and vegetable trade: apples, citrus fruit, kiwi fruit, lettuces, peaches and nectarines, pears, strawberries, sweet peppers, table grapes and tomatoes.

you finished your post with prove you wrong. just have. B) when are you going to realise i dont have to tell lies, picking the EU apart is easy, just need to be on the ball.

This is what I mean by disinformation gaining a foothold. None of these products were prevented from sale, the reality is that they could not be classed as Class 1, therefore could only be sold as Class 2 produce. You see Class 2 produce everywhere on sale in Spain and it is marked as such.. The large UK Stores however will only sell Class 1 produce and that is where the misconception comes in because it is all uniform in weight, shape, and size.

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This is what I mean by disinformation gaining a foothold. None of these products were prevented from sale, the reality is that they could not be classed as Class 1, therefore could only be sold as Class 2 produce. You see Class 2 produce everywhere on sale in Spain and it is marked as such.. The large UK Stores however will only sell Class 1 produce and that is where the misconception comes in because it is all uniform in weight, shape, and size.

But does it matter? Why does the Empire want to classify some fruits as Class 1 & some as Class 2? What's the possible point of it all? Surely it's all just to give armies of bureaucrats something to do. :-/

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But does it matter? Why does the Empire want to classify some fruits as Class 1 & some as Class 2? What's the possible point of it all? Surely it's all just to give armies of bureaucrats something to do. :-/

The point is that its misinformation/disinformation for overt political aims.

The real issue here is why doesn't the UK retail market sell anything but Class A veg, and the reality is that this would not have changed one tiny iota under the EU classification system. The objective of the regulations is to achieve consistency across countries which allows an importer to have confidence they know what quality they are getting when they purchase a product. Its all about trade on a level playing field.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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The point is that its misinformation/disinformation for overt political aims.

The real issue here is why doesn't the UK retail market sell anything but Class A veg, and the reality is that this would not have changed one tiny iota under the EU classification system. The objective of the regulations is to achieve consistency across countries which allows an importer to have confidence they know what quality they are getting when they purchase a product. Its all about trade on a level playing field.

Br Cornelius

Making sure of standards of quality and so on, obviously that's all very good, but this enforcement of uniformity is always very biased in favour of the giant, wealthy industrial producers (whether it's fruit & veg, meat, milk, Fish or whatever), and the imposition of the same rules on someone who just wants to grow their own veg on a smallholding and perhaps sell it to friends & neighbours, for instance, or wants to keep a couple of sheep in their back yard, those are the kind of things that people tend to get annoyed by. it's the same with Fishing; so many small fisherpeople have been driven out by businesses by this "level playing field" that lets the French or Spanish to come steaming in with their gigantic nets and sweep everything before them. Enforcing of uniform standards just means imposing mass produced, Eurostandard mediocrity.

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I don't see how it can be allowed for a country to pull out of a larger political entity once it has entered it. Otherwise one day you are in, the next day out, depending on political swings. Centrifugal forces are always present, using nationalism, protectionism, even racism to push for exit. What it is is local officials wanting to become national officials, local bureaucracies wanting to get rid of anyone to answer to.

Things keep going as they have recently and eventually the world will consist of a large collection of Singapores. (Actually maybe not a bad idea).

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Making sure of standards of quality and so on, obviously that's all very good, but this enforcement of uniformity is always very biased in favour of the giant, wealthy industrial producers (whether it's fruit & veg, meat, milk, Fish or whatever), and the imposition of the same rules on someone who just wants to grow their own veg on a smallholding and perhaps sell it to friends & neighbours, for instance, or wants to keep a couple of sheep in their back yard, those are the kind of things that people tend to get annoyed by. it's the same with Fishing; so many small fisherpeople have been driven out by businesses by this "level playing field" that lets the French or Spanish to come steaming in with their gigantic nets and sweep everything before them. Enforcing of uniform standards just means imposing mass produced, Eurostandard mediocrity.

Without Standards then the buyer would have to be present for each transaction to ensure that he/she is getting the goods as advertised. When buying Class 1 or Class 2 goods you know exactly what you are buying which allows for greater Trade across Nations.

You might want to re-check your statements re: French / Spanish Trawlers and their real limitations.

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Making sure of standards of quality and so on, obviously that's all very good, but this enforcement of uniformity is always very biased in favour of the giant, wealthy industrial producers (whether it's fruit & veg, meat, milk, Fish or whatever), and the imposition of the same rules on someone who just wants to grow their own veg on a smallholding and perhaps sell it to friends & neighbours, for instance, or wants to keep a couple of sheep in their back yard, those are the kind of things that people tend to get annoyed by. it's the same with Fishing; so many small fisherpeople have been driven out by businesses by this "level playing field" that lets the French or Spanish to come steaming in with their gigantic nets and sweep everything before them. Enforcing of uniform standards just means imposing mass produced, Eurostandard mediocrity.

This is because the consumer wants it this way, not because larger entities are forcing things onto the general populace. It's about satisfying the buyer with current product on demand, at an affordable price, with reasonable quality and convenience. That's why Shopping Centres with everything in them are springing up everywhere. Does Joe the Grocer down the road sell better genuine carrots. Probably does, but people prefer to go to the Shopping Centre to buy the carrots and the meat at the same time.

It's a common practice these days in advanced societies, Don't blame the EU.

Edited by Black Red Devil
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