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Still Waters

$100,000 Reward for Proof of an ET Spacecraft

145 posts in this topic

Puh-leez ...

First off, aluminum foil was not a product of the aircraft industry although it was - and is - used a lot in aircraft. It was first made in the 19th century in Switzerland and was first used in the US in the early 20th century. At best what was being peddled was surplus left over from WW II that the assorted manufacturer's wanted to dump that they'd cut down for household use, something for which it had already been used in most of the rest of the country for a while already.

Second, aluminum foil was used as the outer layer of insulating blankets not only in high altitude aircraft (largely bombers) during and after WW II but for other insulating purposes including the V-2 rockets that came from Germany. Several hundred railroad car loads of V-2 bitzenpieces arrived at White Sands after the war. That would include a bunch of insulating blanket that would be surplus to their needs. I wonder where it went.

Third, aluminum foil contains varying levels of iron, silicon, manganese and, in some cases, copper in its alloy with the first two the most plentiful. Look at the list of elements listed and tell me what the first three - in order of content - are. Well, gee whiz, they're aluminum, iron and silicon. What a surprise. The other two are on the list as well although further down. Now there's one other thing. The added materials found were only on one surface rather than in the alloy and most were trace amounts. There are a lot of ways for that to happen including simple contact or exposure when other materials are being used in manufacturing. Most of those elements are used in the production of aircraft and rockets with the uranium coming from its presence at White Sands.

Still with me and not about to scream that I'm "closed minded"? Good.

Fourth, the "proof" of alien sources for the materials is the isotopes of three elements, copper, nickel and antimony. The fact that the trace levels of each are at odds with the percentage of each found on earth is no surprise. I'd be real surprised if they did agree. Why? Because the process by which they would have been deposited on that layer would not have been natural but rather part of manufacturing which plays hob with actual levels unless they're closely controlled. Of them, only copper is used as part of an aluminum foil alloy and that's only .02% at most - ie, a trace level.

It's rather convenient that they did not show the actual amounts of the elements found but just stated they were there. So what? Take a sample of your skin after a day's exposure to about anything and tell me what you find using the same analytic techniques. Not the percentages, just what's there. Using the methods used in the article, you'll also be of alien construction since many elements will show up that "don't belong there."

Bottom line? They found a dump, probably from White Sands.

You my friend are a breath of fresh air on this forum....keep posting :yes:

Too many fantasists have got off too lightly for too long. (have you met Zozer yet.......you'll have a ball)

Edited by itsnotoutthere

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You my friend are a breath of fresh air on this forum....keep posting :yes:

Thanks. Reality is a tough world but someone's gotta live in it, I guess. ;)

I'm counting up to 1000 posts when I can name my own forum title or whatever it's called. My Beloved Goddess of All Things, the Ever Benevolent DotNM, and I have discussed this ever so briefly but I may consult further with her since she knows me rather well. :yes:

Too many idiots have got off too lightly for too long. (have you met Zozer yet.......you'll have a ball)

I finally got tired of the 911 conspiracy nuts and tripped across this one when I was looking for something else to catch my interest. No, really. It stuck it's freakin' leg out and tripped me! :whistle:

Ah, yes. Tantalizing Testimony. I was there for a while and finally bailed due to real life intervening, specifically illness and obligations that had to be met. Anyway, I couldn't find anything tantalizing about any of it except the leaps of faith from "Huh. Wazzat?" to "It must be aliens!" Those I found in abundance and "tantalizing" only in how people managed to make that leap with absolutely no effort at all.

Speculation I don't mind as long as that's all it is. Even the most thorough UFO investigator (and again I call upon Quillus* to appear) engages in it at some point in the investigative process. Police investigators do it as well. This is largely how evidential wheat and chaff are separated. Think of it as a court case, what you would want to take in as evidence to support your case. Who has the stronger case, those who actually dig in and do their homework or those who go in with nothing but belief and evidence that has conveniently disappeared or is otherwise unavailable.

* Quillus is a Ufologist and believer but he is first and foremost an investigator and well respected among skeptics & debunkers. It's funny how many times we're on the same side of the fence on any given case.

The alien implants were mentioned in an earlier post. It's funny how so many of those "implants" have proven to be common items, splinters of various materials and the like. Those that are supposed to be "definitive proof" are not to be found. They've all gotten lost or whisked away by some unknown agency or the cat ate it. (I already blamed the dog for consuming other evidence. Remaining pets will have to wait their turn.)

Believers believe without supporting evidence that cannot be proven false. That's how one treats a religion, not what should be treated as a science.

Now, here's a little corker for the FTBs. Do I accept there is a possibility of alien visitation? Of course I do. I'd be an idiot to flat out deny it simply because, as there is no evidence to support the claim, there is no evidence to deny it either. That's why I consider myself a true skeptic, I don't see that either side has overwhelming evidence that it's the correct one. Against that though, the ones who deny the possibility don't come up with falsifiable "evidence" as the believers do, and do all too regularly.

Now, who's truly closed minded and who's open minded?

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Don't you find it curious that all of those "crucial pieces of evidence" have gotten lost or have been confiscated by some government agency or the aliens have come to take back or got eaten by the dog or are otherwise no longer available? Not even just a little bit? With that track record, if it were me, which it is at the moment, I'd tend to believe they never existed in the first place.

Edited to correct spelling oops.

Our scary defense complex will wipe you off the map or fry your brain with microwaves if that's what it takes to keep the secrecy. I complied a list of witness harassment/ threat cases so it's no small matter.

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Our scary defense complex will wipe you off the map or fry your brain with microwaves if that's what it takes to keep the secrecy. I complied a list of witness harassment/ threat cases so it's no small matter.

One US president couldn't keep an office break-in a secret, another couldn't keep a nasty stain on a dress a secret, what makes you think they could possibly keep alien visitation secret?

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Our scary defense complex will wipe you off the map or fry your brain with microwaves if that's what it takes to keep the secrecy. I complied a list of witness harassment/ threat cases so it's no small matter.

May aswell just make a list of mental disorders.
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Our scary defense complex will wipe you off the map or fry your brain with microwaves if that's what it takes to keep the secrecy. I complied a list of witness harassment/ threat cases so it's no small matter.

Yes, the old cover-up defence,..."we cant show you good evidence because we havent got it" get-out-of-jail free card.

The material that would be convincing proof has been collected and secreted away by the US government. While endlessly appealing, this is an argument from ignorance and implies that every government in the world has efficiently squirreled away all alien artifacts. Unless, of course, the extraterrestrials only visit the USA where retrieval of material that falls to Earth is supposedly a perfected art form.

Bottom line - all the claims (thousands and thousands) falls WAAYYY short of anything even remotely resembling scientific proof that ET exist, have found Earth, or are here on a visit.

Edited by Hazzard
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An alien spacecraft such as a flying saucer or an alien body would be not very likley simply because there is a cover-up. You would have a media black out, cover mechanism etc. What is more likely is ET debris and that sort of thing.

One example would be a New Berlin, New York case from 1964 where the occupants were performing repairs on a craft.

You can read about this case in the book UFOs Over New York By Preston Dennett.

To her surprise, she also found an apparent piece of cable. Says Hatzenbuhler, "The outer part of it looked like the wrapping, something like a brown paper towl, only it wasn't like our paper towl. It felt rather like that, and was dark brown in color. It seemed to be a wrapping for a cable, tubular. And in the center of it - it had been cut laterally - you could see the strip, maybe an inch wide, more or less, something that looked like finely shredded aluminum strips laid in there, and it was as long as the piece of paper, and that the color and feel of aluminum, although it wasn't aluminum. It didn't behave like aluminum. Aluminum will crumple and this didn't crumple. You couldn't crease it. It was inside, strips of this, laying inside the paper. You could remove the inside, for the outside paper had been cut along the length of the piece, but it was all together."

Unfortunately, this crucial piece of evidence has become lost.

So Aliens use old armoured HV cable with paper insulation to power saucers do they.

Aluminium cabe is hard drawn, it does not crumple, aluminium cans do.

testing-and-commissioning-medium-high-voltage-cables.jpg

003-41.jpg

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It's so easy to debunk...no matter what is offered just say no,case closed...no amount of evidence will ever change that no matter how open-minded someone is.

A piece of evidence that lives up to the claims that accompany it would be a refreshing change if anything.

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Our scary defense complex will wipe you off the map or fry your brain with microwaves if that's what it takes to keep the secrecy. I complied a list of witness harassment/ threat cases so it's no small matter.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

Scary Pffffft. Wimp.

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An alien spacecraft such as a flying saucer or an alien body would be not very likley simply because there is a cover-up. You would have a media black out, cover mechanism etc. What is more likely is ET debris and that sort of thing.

One example would be a New Berlin, New York case from 1964 where the occupants were performing repairs on a craft.

You can read about this case in the book UFOs Over New York By Preston Dennett.

To her surprise, she also found an apparent piece of cable. Says Hatzenbuhler, "The outer part of it looked like the wrapping, something like a brown paper towl, only it wasn't like our paper towl. It felt rather like that, and was dark brown in color. It seemed to be a wrapping for a cable, tubular. And in the center of it - it had been cut laterally - you could see the strip, maybe an inch wide, more or less, something that looked like finely shredded aluminum strips laid in there, and it was as long as the piece of paper, and that the color and feel of aluminum, although it wasn't aluminum. It didn't behave like aluminum. Aluminum will crumple and this didn't crumple. You couldn't crease it. It was inside, strips of this, laying inside the paper. You could remove the inside, for the outside paper had been cut along the length of the piece, but it was all together."

Unfortunately, this crucial piece of evidence has become lost.

What a crock. ETH'ers always play the cover up card, why do you feel this is necessary in todays society? For one, you could filme the thing and email it to a thousand sources at the touch of a button, Cover that up. Alternatively, all one need do is take photos to prove you were there first, and then make one phone call to the local radio station. Within 10 minutes there will be too many people to cover up the story at the site and media will have the evidence spread across the globe in seconds. Cover that up.

This is the digital age, the old excuses do not work anymore.

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He's gonna have to pony up more than $100 grand.

That's like a loaf of bread and a box of jujyfruits these days.

You do not have to produce the craft or an alien. Just an Extraterrestrial resistor would do. It only asks for proof of a craft, not the craft not alien itself.

Way behind the 8 ball, he no doubt stole the idea for Klass and thought he could market it. Randi's challenge is safe as houses too as far as I know.

From Wikipedia:

In 1966, Klass made an offer that stood for the remaining thirty-nine years of his life. By 1974, the offer had changed slightly, to the following form:

  • Klass agrees to pay to the second party the sum of $10,000 within thirty days after any of the following occur[citation needed]:

(A) Any crashed spacecraft, or major piece of a spacecraft is found to be clearly of extraterrestrial origin by the United States National Academy of Sciences, or (B) The National Academy of Sciences announces that it has examined other evidence which conclusively proves that Earth has been visited by extraterrestrial spacecraft in the 20th century, or © A bona fide extraterrestrial visitor, born on a celestial body other than the Earth, appears live before the General Assembly of the United Nations or on a national television program.

  • The party accepting this offer pays Klass $100 per year, for a maximum of ten years, each year none of these things occur. Even after the ten-year period, Klass's offer of $10,000 was available until his death.

Klass made this offer openly to anyone. The offer was specifically declined by Frank Edwards, John G. Fuller, J. Allen Hynek, and James Harder, some of whom were the most vocal promoters of the extraterrestrial hypothesis (Klass 1974:356–57). One person had entered into the agreement with Klass. A man in Seattle, Washington accepted the terms in 1969 and made two annual payments of $100. Then in 1971 he made a bogus claim for the prize. When it was pointed out that his claim didn't meet any of the conditions, the man let the agreement lapse. In his bookUFOs Explained, Klass offered to refund the full purchase price to every reader of the book if any of the conditions of his "UFO challenge" were ever met (Klass 1974:354–60).

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Our scary defense complex will wipe you off the map or fry your brain with microwaves if that's what it takes to keep the secrecy. I complied a list of witness harassment/ threat cases so it's no small matter.

Oh, crud. That is the other reason I have this custom made tin & copper helmet*. I knew the mothership part but forgot the ebil gummint part. Yep, yep, microwaves. Tightly focused beams like the Crossbow project's laser. (Anyone catch that reference?)

* The older tin helmets were far superior to the more common aluminum ones, especially the aluminum foil ones. A tin & copper alloy is even better since it's a better conductor so is far and above the others for cerebral shielding. I had mine custom made, cast and polished by artisans rather than use the more common formed ones. It cost significantly more but it was worth it.

I tried looking for your compiled list but - funny thing - only registered users can get there. Sooo ... that part is off limits to anyone except FTBs who're the only folks who'd sign up to gain access. Wow, how unexpected. Uh-huh. I guess we'll never know how unimpressive it really is. You know, like the rest of the site.

However, let's think about something. Do you think your site or the others like it would be allowed to stay up if the "scary defense complex" (SDC) was all that concerned about those "secrets"? You have people telling about threats, right? Or that's what you imply. Do you think they'd be allowed to do so by the SDC if they were real? Do you think even one of those "reports" on your site would be available if the SDC were all that you claim? Sooo ... how could you have an entire site devoted to all those secret stuff if it were really secret?

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May aswell just make a list of mental disorders.

I suspect they're read the same. :yes:

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Bottom line - all the claims (thousands and thousands) falls WAAYYY short of anything even remotely resembling scientific proof that ET exist, have found Earth, or are here on a visit.

Do you have a better explanation for politicians and Paris Hilton? :lol:

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So Aliens use old armoured HV cable with paper insulation to power saucers do they.

Aluminium cabe is hard drawn, it does not crumple, aluminium cans do.

Welcome to the fray, brah. We's gots plenny FTBs for target practice so lock and load. :gun::tu:

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This is the digital age, the old excuses do not work anymore.

Ahhh, but the SDC (as defined in a previous post) chased down all those copies and eradicated them. "They're everywhere! They're everywhere!" (Envision Chicken Little with a new battle cry.) Oh, and they silenced the recipients with their "Microwave Mind Blaster" so they are now babbling idiots and running for office all over the world.

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Are we all talking about the Federation`s EPA rules again ? E.T has been sighted many,many times for off loading there trash on earth !

Thats all the Russian meteor was you know ! FTL trash ! :tu:

Flashing blue lights read-em-ther rights !

justDONTEATUS!

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Are we all talking about the Federation`s EPA rules again ? E.T has been sighted many,many times for off loading there trash on earth !

Thats all the Russian meteor was you know ! FTL trash ! :tu:

Flashing blue lights read-em-ther rights !

justDONTEATUS!

ROFLMAO!

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You do not have to produce the craft or an alien. Just an Extraterrestrial resistor would do. It only asks for proof of a craft, not the craft not alien itself.

Way behind the 8 ball, he no doubt stole the idea for Klass and thought he could market it. Randi's challenge is safe as houses too as far as I know.

From Wikipedia:

In 1966, Klass made an offer that stood for the remaining thirty-nine years of his life. By 1974, the offer had changed slightly, to the following form:

  • Klass agrees to pay to the second party the sum of $10,000 within thirty days after any of the following occur[citation needed]:

(A) Any crashed spacecraft, or major piece of a spacecraft is found to be clearly of extraterrestrial origin by the United States National Academy of Sciences, or ( B) The National Academy of Sciences announces that it has examined other evidence which conclusively proves that Earth has been visited by extraterrestrial spacecraft in the 20th century, or © A bona fide extraterrestrial visitor, born on a celestial body other than the Earth, appears live before the General Assembly of the United Nations or on a national television program.

Gidday Psyche,

can you confirm what would constitute extraterrestrial as far as a resistor is concerned? i.e how could one prove this was brought to Earth from another planet?

As for Klass, at least Hynek was $1000 up on him from the MJ12 bet :).

Looking at Klass' conditions I see a few problems...the first being in line with original question, how could one confirm with scientific certainty that a piece of material is of extraterrestrial origin? you cant! in the same way that even if proven of extraterrestrial origin this doesnt mean Earth has been visited! (it may have been picked up from the moon) although granted Earth to Moon in the grand scheme of distances is splitting hairs but at least it would keep Klass money safe...i.e. proof of origin doesnt prove visitation....

So I would agree with some previous posters that a body is needed...I would argue that even a craft may not be enough? (at what point in technology do we accept that it cannot be man made?)

Hello Kludge,

I see you asked for me to stick my head into this firing line :)

all I can say is that the £100k offer is ludicrous and even bordering insulting.

Let me try an analogy......its like me offering to anyone that can predict the weeks lottery numbers and prove they did so.....I will give them a £100 ($149 approx) prize.... hmmmm very tempting :no:

So theres me with this piece of craft for 10 years now thinking I may only get £50 for it, but now this man has offered me £100k ..yipppeee....I will post it to him at once.

what do you think owning/having 100% proof of ET would be worth?

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can you confirm what would constitute extraterrestrial as far as a resistor is concerned? i.e how could one prove this was brought to Earth from another planet?

Okay, I ain't Psyche and I don't even play him on the telly but I'm gonna take a shot anyway.

What we use for resistors now is far and beyond what was available around the beginning of the 20th century. If someone from that era were to pick up a resistor as used now - metal film, for example - they'd think it some era-appropriate parallel to alien technology, definitely advanced beyond anything that could be produced at the time. An SMD resistor would drive them into a mad frenzy even if they could identify its function. Or maybe especially. If we find some piece of technology that is far and beyond anything we can even imagine let alone reproduce, that's a good starting point. It would be to us as that metal film or SMD resistor would be to someone a century ago.

The real problem comes in someone with no knowledge of technology identifying it as something that can't be reproduced here. To him/her, it's just a piece of junk that needs to be deposited in the nearest bin. Or used as a decoration in a flower arrangement or as a mantelpiece if it's pretty enough. The same would be true of that resistor mentioned before. Someone who had no grasp on technology would have just dropped it in a bin as junk lying around waiting to be binned. Unfortunately folks like that outnumber those who do have a handle on technology - or enough of one to see that what they found was somehow special - by a vast margin. As a result, unless it can be even indirectly identified with an alien craft of some order, the majority of the population wont know the difference.

But then, there are things like the piece of HV cable Psyche mentioned previously. Non-alien tech has been misidentified by people unfamiliar with current technology and the FTBs latched onto it as "undeniable proof" of an alien presence. This complicates things by adding chaff to the wheat that must be sorted through to get to that rare nugget, if one exists at all. All it would take is one and, thus far, it hasn't made an appearance to anyone who is knowledgeable enough to know "it somehow ain't right."

Hello Kludge,

Hello, my friend.

I see you asked for me to stick my head into this firing line :)

Yep. You're an investigator and one well respected by us skeptical types. In fact, I believe we're on the same side of the fence but just see with different eyes.

what do you think owning/having 100% proof of ET would be worth?

A cure for my daughter. A permanent one so she can again have a happy and healthy life. Without that, it's just something to put on a shelf. However, that's just me. Going with those who'd be interested, to different people it would have different value and/or meaning. Some would see it as a golden key to untold riches and others would be happy to donate it to whomever for analysis etc. And some would destroy or at least hide it out of fear of some reprisal for even temporary possession whether real or, more likely, imagined. I don't think there's an easy way to set a value on it. How much is fifteen minutes of fame worth these days?

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Gidday Psyche,

can you confirm what would constitute extraterrestrial as far as a resistor is concerned? i.e how could one prove this was brought to Earth from another planet?

As for Klass, at least Hynek was $1000 up on him from the MJ12 bet :).

Looking at Klass' conditions I see a few problems...the first being in line with original question, how could one confirm with scientific certainty that a piece of material is of extraterrestrial origin? you cant! in the same way that even if proven of extraterrestrial origin this doesnt mean Earth has been visited! (it may have been picked up from the moon) although granted Earth to Moon in the grand scheme of distances is splitting hairs but at least it would keep Klass money safe...i.e. proof of origin doesnt prove visitation....

So I would agree with some previous posters that a body is needed...I would argue that even a craft may not be enough? (at what point in technology do we accept that it cannot be man made?)

Giddy Q

Been too long my friend.

Natural Abundance mate ;)

Shh, Friedman I think you mean, but I did not say that lol.

LINK - Wikipedia:

In chemistry, natural abundance (NA) refers to the abundance of isotopes of a chemical element as naturally found on a planet. The relative atomic mass (a weighted average) of these isotopes is the atomic weight listed for the element in the periodic table. The abundance of an isotope varies from planet to planet, and even from place to place on the Earth, but remains relatively constant in time.

As an example, uranium has three naturally occurring isotopes: 238U, 235U and 234U. Their respective NA range from 99.2739 - 99.2752%, 0.7198 - 0.7202%, and 0.0050 - 0.0059%.[1] For example, if 100,000 uranium atoms were analyzed, one would expect to find approximately 99,275 238U atoms, 720 235U atoms, and no more than 5 or 6 234U atoms. This is because 238U is much more stable than 235U or 234U, as the half-life of each isotope reveals: 4.468×109 years for 238U compared to 7.038×108 years for 235U and 245,500 years for 234U. However, the natural abundance of a given isotope is also affected by the probability of its creation in nucleosynthesis (as in the case of samarium; radioactive 147Sm and 148Sm are much more abundant than stable 144Sm) and by production of a given isotope by natural radioactive isotopes (as in the case of radiogenic isotopes of lead).

Isotopic ratios are easily acquired in a lab, not all that expensive either. This will determine 100% for sure if a resistor is an alien one. Life too has independent biosignatures. Finding life on say Europa does not particularly mean it is "alien"in the true sense of the word, that is if it originated here, and was transported to Europa perhaps by panspermia or similar, then it is not truly Alien.

Hello Kludge,

I see you asked for me to stick my head into this firing line :)

all I can say is that the £100k offer is ludicrous and even bordering insulting.

Let me try an analogy......its like me offering to anyone that can predict the weeks lottery numbers and prove they did so.....I will give them a £100 ($149 approx) prize.... hmmmm very tempting :no:

So theres me with this piece of craft for 10 years now thinking I may only get £50 for it, but now this man has offered me £100k ..yipppeee....I will post it to him at once.

what do you think owning/having 100% proof of ET would be worth?

But if you just hand over a piece and it is determined Alien, then you are in the ball park for the asking price on the rest of the "whatever it may be" (ray gun, spaceship, communicator or something)

Imagine that auction!

Cheers.

Edited by psyche101
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Ahhh, but the SDC (as defined in a previous post) chased down all those copies and eradicated them. "They're everywhere! They're everywhere!" (Envision Chicken Little with a new battle cry.) Oh, and they silenced the recipients with their "Microwave Mind Blaster" so they are now babbling idiots and running for office all over the world.

LOL, so that's how they "Got to" Mr Lazar!! :rofl:

Ya know, I am starting to see the fun in Bee's perspective :D All we need above is an experimental hologram, and boy howdy, we are cooking with gas :D

My step daughter had the little one over the weekend, one month early, but now my step daughter has a daughter, delivery was great, mum and bub doing very well.

Edited by psyche101
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Do you have a better explanation for politicians and Paris Hilton? :lol:

I put up a Paris Hilton wallpaper in the office on my screen, all the girls got really wound up! I explained her as a poorly misunderstood girl who just needs someone to show her the way, and that a little understanding with her would go a long way. And deep down, I am sure she is a real sweetheart.

Damn it's fun watching the reactions :devil:

Edited by psyche101

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LOL, so that's how they "Got to" Mr Lazar!! :rofl:

Yep. Haven't heard a lot about Mr. Element 115 of late, have we. He's got that chemical etc supply store up in Michigan and even there he got into trouble. The saving grace is that he's got some pretty cool stuff and I may actually place an order or two. :yes:

Ya know, I am starting to see the fun in Bee's perspective :D All we need above is an experimental hologram, and boy howdy, we are cooking with gas :D

I've not seen Our Dear Miss Bee for a while. Maybe I'm on the wrong threads. How's she doing?

My step daughter had the little one over the weekend, one month early, but now my step daughter has a daughter, delivery was great, mum and bub doing very well.

And you're a (step-)grampa with a new granddaughter to spoil most outrageously. And you nkow bloody well she'll have you twisted around her little finger in no time flat. :tu::D

Edit to fix a mi-located quote thingie

Edited by Kludge808

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