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Grandpa Greenman

Poll, Has religion made the world better?

Does religion make the world a better place?   57 members have voted

  1. 1. Has religion made the world better or worse?

    • Better
    • Worse
    • It is irrelevant and does neither.

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150 posts in this topic

How do you remove religiousity from human spirituality and the other drivers of religion such as the psychology which causes people to join groups of like minded people and to fear differnce.

IMO if you took religiousity out from humanity, it would also remove creativity imagination and that sense of wonder and questioning which makes us all that we are. I just cant see how we could attain a higher level of existence without those things. For me personally, the higher level of existence, and being all thatIi can be involves linking myslef with the cosmic consciousness to become one with god, the universe, and all sapient life. What makes us able to reach a higher level of existence is the same thing which makes us spiritual, and thus religious, beings. And finally, we wouldnt have the worlds greatest and most enduring art, music, buildings, poetry etc., if we were not spiritual/religious people.

As far as I'm aware, creativity, imagination and inventions are not products of religion. On the contary, it may very well be the case that religion is a product of humanity, and not the other way round.. This is a difficult one question to ponder, but in defining whether religion has made the world (Humanity) better off, shouldn't we first define what it is to be human?

I'll wager that everone on this thread has a different definition of what it is to be human..

Art, Music, poetry, these are imo human creative processes that are hyjacked by religion in many cases..

Invention, this process of creation is born of nesessity and not because some deity said so..

Buildings were made my human minds and hands. The only difference between a brothel and a cathedral is the dogma that defines it..

Edited by Professor T

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What is the purpose of religion?

To pass down the spiritual practices and teachings of the previous generations to aid the younger generation, or those who are seeking spiritual knowledge to experience the higher wisdom/connection to the holy spirit for themselves. Pass down tradition, celebrate god, be a resource of spiritual power.

Edited by SpiritWriter

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Primative societies needed religion, evolved societies rely much more on spirituality.

In the distant future there will be no need for religion.

It is spirituality that drives the highest of our beneficent achievements.

But religion is merely the way people codify and group beliefs. A child will create its own religion, left to itself, by acting on the presumption of its internal beliefs about the nature of its world.. People then then join groups which most closely represent their own spiritual beiefs or ideas about the nature of self, world, and the connections between the two. A person alone can be spiritual or religious but put a number of people together and religions or groupings of belief will evolve.

In a thousand years or ten thousand, humans will still have beliefs and religions based around the nature of humanity and the universe. Humans may be transformed physically beyond recognition and living among the stars, but still they will be spiritual and thus religious.

I do not see that primitive societies NEEDED religion more tha us ; religion then helped explain much that was inexplicable Today it does the same, but that which is inexplicable has changed..

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The concept of religion is about what a person believes or feels are true, but for organized religion is a society of persons sharing a common faith express that together in a larger mass form. What religion has taught us not only to have sense of morality, but religion in the past has promoted ignorance to supressed scientific knowledge, intolerance and vengeance against those with differing beliefs; and religion made certain subjects or things taboo out of fear it can clash with the organized religious authorities.

I don't adhere to organized religion nor attend any church out of my choice not to, but I respect other religious opinions such as my relatives and my wife's family. I had friends too who may attend churches and services, which is up to them. I just don't like some people use religion as an excuse to harm others and a tool of oppression onto others, which why our government has a strong sense of the separation of church and state to prevent religion (any church or denomination) from becoming the law of the land.

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As far as I'm aware, creativity, imagination and inventions are not products of religion. On the contary, it may very well be the case that religion is a product of humanity, and not the other way round.. This is a difficult one question to ponder, but in defining whether religion has made the world (Humanity) better off, shouldn't we first define what it is to be human?

I'll wager that everone on this thread has a different definition of what it is to be human..

Art, Music, poetry, these are imo human creative processes that are hyjacked by religion in many cases..

Invention, this process of creation is born of nesessity and not because some deity said so..

Buildings were made my human minds and hands. The only difference between a brothel and a cathedral is the dogma that defines it..

My point was that religion flows from human spirituality, and human spirituality is an integral part of the way humans think neurologically, like creativity imagination and logic. To 'get rid of" religion you would have to "get rid of spirituaity" and to do that you owuld have to modify human thought processes, thus eliminating imagination creativity etc.

It is like trying to get rid of our ability to hate and yet not touching our ability to love.

All we can do is learn how to use religion productively. After all we have to be taught how to use logic and philosophy productively so why not theology and religious thinking We ahve to be taught discipline in other areas so why not in religion and spiritual thinking.

What makes and defines humans is our self aware sapience. Everything else about us flows from this. Once we become aware of us it drives everything we do, where as without it we are driven by genetic and biological impulses like all other animals OR we are so damaged that while classified as human, biologically, we have none of the qualities of humanity. eg we cant think, speak, or be aware of the nature of self /others life /death, the linear nature of time, causal effect and consequence, etc etc.

Religion because of its deep inner drieing power motivates humans much more than logic or rTason this has good and bad consequences but it drives many of the great creative and passionate group and singlar endeavours of mankind. The first music was spiritual and religious the first stories were spiritual and religious the first art was spiritual and religious. Stonehenge, the pyramids, many of the greatest buildings in europe, and a huge amount of great art and literature would not exist without religion.

Without religions we might not have developed sociological structures such as nuclear families tribes, groups and nations. In europe only a singular religion stopped constant warfare, tamed groups like the vikings huns goths etc. and allowed the growth of powerful nation states. Of course when religions came into conflict it was equally destructive. But without the unification of christian europe, the mongols (who were not driven by religious aspirations) would almost certainly have overun it, and our history would be entirely different.

Edited by Mr Walker

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It is interesting to me that English has two words, "religion," and "religiosity," which mean the same thing but also mean things almost opposite.

welcome to the wacky world of the English language Imagine what it is like for an English teacher trying to explain all this to children.

Basically, I think a religion is an entity and religiousity is a state of mind or a condition. Eg. "He belonged to a religion, but his religiousity was doubtful." Or, "America has no official religon, but a high degree of religiousity in its society/people."

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My point was that religion flows from human spirituality, and human spirituality is an integral part of the way humans think neurologically, like creativity imagination and logic. To 'get rid of" religion you would have to "get rid of spirituaity" and to do that you owuld have to modify human thought processes, thus eliminating imagination creativity etc.

It is like trying to get rid of our ability to hate and yet not touching our ability to love.

All we can do is learn how to use religion productively. After all we have to be taught how to use logic and philosophy productively so why not theology and religious thinking We ahve to be taught discipline in other areas so why not in religion and spiritual thinking.

What makes and defines humans is our self aware sapience. Everything else about us flows from this. Once we become aware of us it drives everything we do, where as without it we are driven by genetic and biological impulses like all other animals OR we are so damaged that while classified as human, biologically, we have none of the qualities of humanity. eg we cant think, speak, or be aware of the nature of self /others life /death, the linear nature of time, causal effect and consequence, etc etc.

Ahhh, I see now..

Thanks.. debate caused by misunderstanding..

I percieve Religion and Spirituality as two sperate things that are often mistaken for the same thing..

Spirituality imo is a deep inner perception of reality broken down into raw emotions at an individual level.. In short, it's raw awareness, raw being, raw consciousness..

Religion on the other-hand is an organised & structured assembly of law set to govern multiple groups of people.. In short, it's organised awareness that is hierarchical.

Spirituality imo is vital to being human..

Religion on the other hand, has held us back because of it's hierarchical nature.. But not only is it hierarchical, it has evolved over millenia to become dogmatic, self serving, self replicating, viral in it's structures of belief and spread throughout history.. lol, don't get be started.. But that is of course, only looking at the negative atributes.. there were positive changes within some religions, though these imo are far outwighed by the harm that religion has wrought..

I still don't see though, how religion is intergral in the formation of society, of playing a part in the formation of nuclear families ect... What I do see though today in this age, is a natural progression away from Religion into Science or politics as being the controlling element of society.. so, perhaps you do have a point,

Edited by Professor T

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Better, worse or neither. What do you think?

Both. It is true that wars are fought in the name of it. But, people help each other in the name of it too.

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Ahhh, I see now..

Thanks.. debate caused by misunderstanding.. :D

I percieve Religion and Spirituality as two sperate things that are often mistaken for the same thing..

Spirituality imo is a deep inner perception of reality broken down into raw emotions at an individual level.. In short, it's raw awareness, raw being, raw consciousness..

Religion on the other-hand is an organised & structured assembly of law set to govern multiple groups of people.. In short, it's organised awareness that is hierarchical.

Spirituality imo is vital to being human..

Religion on the other hand, has held us back because of it's hierarchical nature.. But not only is it hierarchical, it has evolved over millenia to become dogmatic, self serving, self replicating, viral in it's structures of belief and spread throughout history.. lol, don't get be started.. But that is of course, only looking at the negative atributes.. there were positive changes within some religions, though these imo are far outwighed by the harm that religion has wrought..

I'd agree for the most part, but would be a little less harsh towards religion.

It served its purpose, but will be less and less needed in the future.

I'd suggest that in order to move forward in our evolution we need to see our common predicament, that we are all human, and we have to work together in order to survive.

For those that would hold on to any particular religion I'd say look at the commonalities in the core beliefs of most religions and you'll awaken a spiritual understanding of what is truly important;

It's not the particular place or ritual imposed by the individual religion, it's the love and respect for each other that matters.

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Most, if not all Wars are / were over religion.

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You're essentially asking how it's affected the material world. To ask such a question is to imply that there is nothing beyond the material, and that all religion and spirituality is illusory. Although many may believe this, this doesn't make the materialist philosophy true. The poll is one-sided and vague.

To to answer you simply, in the materialist perspective, it would have made the world worse. However in the spiritualist perspective, it would be vital for life spiritual life.

It should be obvious which I would personally chose...

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I'd agree for the most part, but would be a little less harsh towards religion.

It served its purpose, but will be less and less needed in the future.

I'd suggest that in order to move forward in our evolution we need to see our common predicament, that we are all human, and we have to work together in order to survive.

For those that would hold on to any particular religion I'd say look at the commonalities in the core beliefs of most religions and you'll awaken a spiritual understanding of what is truly important;

It's not the particular place or ritual imposed by the individual religion, it's the love and respect for each other that matters.

I guess my own harshness toward religion is a result of my own history with it..

Core beliefs in religion imo, are for the most part superficial. But the Core Intentions behind the beliefs are far more important and revealing..

I can see where Mr Walker is comming from now, however, i still see religion ultimately as something that has seriously held humanity back.. It has clouded out judgements thoughtout history, and still does to this day.. I think that ultimately we are all still under it's power and still viewing the world though it's misty perception even though the essense of it has moved from relgion to science and politics, which let's face it, is where most people put their faith nowadays..

Put it this way. If, in the beginning, when Spiritual thoughts and feelings first started to gather other like-minded people to form religion the guiding principle was not to control people but to let them be themselves, to embrace differences and not to impose conformity then I image humanity would be at a much higher level than it is today..

As far as I am aware, all religions except one have been used to control the masses and to impose conformity through belief. The one religion I know of that doesn't have control and conformity at it's core is the Baha'i faith, which is also one of the youngest organised religions I know of..

btw, I'm no expert Professor on the subject, lol.. This is just my thoughts and feelings on the subject.

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Well, I believe religion in general has done enough good and bad for me to not be able to comprehend which of the two it has done more of. Where you have religion inspiring people to live better lives for the sake of fellow man, you have those that misinterpret "God's words" and antagonize those that don't believe. Arguments can be continued to be made for both sides, but all in all, it's more man that makes religion evil, not the concept of most religious practices by themselves.

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I find my religion utterly unnecessary, but I like it regardless. Buddhism does not tell you what to believe, but it has a set of suggestions and most of them have evolved nicely over the last 1500 years into sensible propositions. It also doesn't tell you how to behave and provides only limited and rather vague guidance (the Ten-Fold Noble Path), but it also teaches the concept of compassion for all sentient beings, and, frankly, with some such concept (Christians have the rule of love), you don't need rules and regulations.

So Temple provides a place for contemplation, a place to donate to the poor where one knows that is exactly who will get it, and some very pretty architecture and artwork.

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yes for the better my vote goes

history of arabs still exist when we were just bunch of tribes fighting each other and stealing and raiding each other

and then islam came and made us on top of the world in the golden ages

freed countries of and conqured the most powerfull two empires at the time " roman - persia "

and science and knowledge were at their best in middle east during islamic empire

people from europe came to study science , knowledge , philosphy in bagdad and other arabic countries

life was better than ever and all thanks to one simple man and the religion he brought

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He didn't make life all that much better; you are fantasizing. The Arabs were doing fine before he came and while it was under his banner that they conquered, he was gone.

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He didn't make life all that much better; you are fantasizing. The Arabs were doing fine before he came and while it was under his banner that they conquered, he was gone.

am arab .. i think i know my history better than you do thank you :D

being occupied and treated like crap by persians and romans is not better

being lapdogs to other nations and scrambling after bones they threw for us is not better

beside .. educate your self more on history and read about the golden age of islam

no offense meant of course but your lack of history is obvious and am just pointing it out

cheers

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If we were not fighting over religion, we would still be fighting - people seem to be in a constant battle for supremacy and ownership of what is "right". "You are wrong I am right and therefore I deserve the riches of this life and eternity and you do not". This is the hidden mantra of the masses who kill and fight in every generation to this day, there was and always will be a reason to battle for supremacy and justice over those that are "wrong" about something.

As a believer, I believe in God, I believe God believes in Humanity - all of humanity, I can question why things are as they are but I cannot claim to know.

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Most, if not all Wars are / were over religion.

And where does the lust for power lie in any of these wars????

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yes for the better my vote goes

history of arabs still exist when we were just bunch of tribes fighting each other and stealing and raiding each other

and then islam came and made us on top of the world in the golden ages

freed countries of and conqured the most powerfull two empires at the time " roman - persia "

and science and knowledge were at their best in middle east during islamic empire

people from europe came to study science , knowledge , philosphy in bagdad and other arabic countries

life was better than ever and all thanks to one simple man and the religion he brought

Bold bit - you are being sarcastic, right?

PS: can you just remind us all what has been going on in places like Egypt and tell us what religion is there?

Not sure who this man is is, but today the muslims seem to be at war against each other, let alone some are against the rest of the world, so how can that be a good thing?

Europeans did go to these countries to study, but they also went to the jungle to. Please do not take credit for the minds of the European race, today we do not kill each other on our own streets in the name of religion.

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He didn't make life all that much better; you are fantasizing. The Arabs were doing fine before he came and while it was under his banner that they conquered, he was gone.

Here's another issue I have with many religions. The use of it to replace real history, science and archeology with an out of date book written form the point view of one set conquerers over another set. Sad because it has held us back from discoveries that would have benefited many people. You can't take a book about religion and force history and science to match it.

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yes for the better my vote goes

history of arabs still exist when we were just bunch of tribes fighting each other and stealing and raiding each other

and then islam came and made us on top of the world in the golden ages

freed countries of and conqured the most powerfull two empires at the time " roman - persia "

and science and knowledge were at their best in middle east during islamic empire

people from europe came to study science , knowledge , philosphy in bagdad and other arabic countries

life was better than ever and all thanks to one simple man and the religion he brought

Muslums attack each other. I am aways hearing about a mudering bomber who has just killed some shiite or the other faction .

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Here's another issue I have with many religions. The use of it to replace real history, science and archeology with an out of date book written form the point view of one set conquerers over another set. Sad because it has held us back from discoveries that would have benefited many people. You can't take a book about religion and force history and science to match it.

I agree with this statement. But, don't agree with whom to blame.

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Muslums attack each other. I am aways hearing about a mudering bomber who has just killed some shiite or the other faction .

i didn't know there was bombers in golden age of islam

in fact i think not even guns were invented back then

.. don't know perhaps you can enlighten us and tell us of these bombing during the islamic empire ?

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Bold bit - you are being sarcastic, right?

PS: can you just remind us all what has been going on in places like Egypt and tell us what religion is there?

Not sure who this man is is, but today the muslims seem to be at war against each other, let alone some are against the rest of the world, so how can that be a good thing?

Europeans did go to these countries to study, but they also went to the jungle to. Please do not take credit for the minds of the European race, today we do not kill each other on our own streets in the name of religion.

sorry to dissapoint your islam hating attitude but if you don't like the facts maybe you should take it up with your historians ?

it ain't my fault history is the way it is .. if you hate it to level of denying it then write your own history in whichever way it suits your view

like it or not .. islamic empire was on top of the world in it's golden age even your " European " historians would not disagree

it's amusing how one's hate can blind them .. carry on :D

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