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Humanity is totally visible to extraterrestrials

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Alexander Popoff: At a meeting of the Royal Society in London, in trying the explain the current failure of SETI to discover extraterrestrial civilizations, Frank Drake said that phasing out analog transmissions from TV, radio, and radar is making our planet electronically invisible from outer space, because while an old-style TV transmitter might generate a million watts, the power of a digital satellite signal is around twenty watts. The digital revolution does not make civilizations invisible to extraterrestrial search. On the contrary, the electromagnetic radiation of our civilization is getting stronger and stronger, and we are sending an increasing amount of radio waves into space.

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In regards to the article the OP links above, there are two things that stand out to me:

1) "Some scholars, including Stephen Hawking, are concerned that the deliberate sending of radio signals into deep space and the leakage radiation could be a serious risk, because we are revealing the location of our planet to hostile alien civilizations."

2) "There is absolutely no need to worry about this. The advanced civilizations from our Galaxy know that we exist and know exactly where we are. The spectral analysis of Earth’s atmosphere alone is enough to reveal us, because it is specific to planets with complex life and technological civilizations. We cannot hide our atmosphere."

My ponderings: Regarding the first quote from the article: Mr. Hawking is a very smart man. Everyone pretty much knows who he is, what he does and that he lives amongst us. We -know- Mr. Hawking. He makes a lot of sense and he has facts to back up his 'sense.'

Now regarding the second quote from the article: I would very much like to know -who- knows enough to be able to state in any shape or form that: 'The advanced civilizations from our Galaxy know we exist and know exactly where we are.'

This second quote is stated with a high sense of certainty, enough certainty to be almost down right impossible to actually clarify or to -know- as utter fact.

I think the word 'if' before that statement would have made it a little bit more 'believable', because we actually do not -know- anything.

(This post has not been intended to flame or to demonstrate a verbal injustice to the OP. This has been clearly a criticism of the the article itself. )

My words of advice: Listen to Mr. Hawking.

:tu:

Kind Regards.

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I agree Mr. Hawkings rules!

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I agree Mr. Hawkings rules!

Agreed, although I wouldn't ask for his advice on dating.

(joking)

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I'm inclined to agree with Stephen Hawking. An advanced civilization could be hostile and conquer us.

For example, Europeans took over the Americas and took lands from the natives. Not to mention enslaved

Africans and brought them to the Americas. Lets also include the Australian Aborigines also their lands

taken by Europeans. It would seem a more advanced culture will dominate a less sophisticated one.

Now some might say a civilization far advanced then us would be peaceful. We can only hope but don't count on it.

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Should we really let anyone else know we're here?

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I don't know that European imperialist behavior is relevant. Aliens aren't going to be needing slave labor and we've already used most of the resources of the planet, and our biologies are going to be so different nothing that grows here will be edible to them.

Now maybe they are xenophobic and so will just wipe us out on principle.

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Europeans took over the Americas and took lands from the natives. Not to mention enslaved

Africans and brought them to the Americas.

The vast majority of African slaves were enslaved by Africans and then sold to other nationalities.

Now maybe they are xenophobic and so will just wipe us out on principle.

God, one can only hope...

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They can't see me, I have my tin foil hat!

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Considering that the human race has been broadcasting in the Electro-magnetic spectrum for over 150 years then it is probably a little bit late to start worrying about it - like locking the stable door after the horse has bolted :yes:

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2) "There is absolutely no need to worry about this. The advanced civilizations from our Galaxy know that we exist and know exactly where we are. The spectral analysis of Earth’s atmosphere alone is enough to reveal us, because it is specific to planets with complex life and technological civilizations. We cannot hide our atmosphere."

Saying that makes a lot of sense; considering how some people are xenophobic, paranoid and have the tendency to overreact. Maybe he just wanted to avoid some the same backlash that the whole Mayan thing brought up.

I just figure; if we can see other planets then why can't they see us. I'm pretty sure other intelligent life would also be curious to find what is out there and would be just as cautious.

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Considering that the human race has been broadcasting in the Electro-magnetic spectrum for over 150 years then it is probably a little bit late to start worrying about it - like locking the stable door after the horse has bolted :yes:

Not really. By far most of our broadcasts are drowned out in background noise by the time they reach the edge of the solar system. Contrary to common belief, very few radio signals emitted from Earth actually has the power and directivity to be picked up outside of the Solar system.

Cheers,

Badeskov

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I would assume that if aliens were to prove to be detrimental to human life it would be unintentional. Perhaps their technology or biology would be "unsafe" for humans in some way that they are otherwise immune (although exo-biology being the least likely of the two)?

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I would presume a sufficiently advanced culture would have done a complete survey of the galaxy and know every planet and its nature in sufficient detail to find us.

I think probably they aren't out there, either being so advanced so as to have left this cosmos for better things or being that we are a hard thing to evolve and happen very rarely. If they are out there, they present an unmeasurable danger, probably the greatest safety being in how far away we are. The stars are really far apart, in spite of appearances. It may also be that they are highly evolved morally or spiritually, and so present no danger.

I strongly doubt they are disinterested. This just does not seem likely to me in an intelligent being.

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Or, as Source says, our biology will inevitably be so different that our presence, while of interest, is unimportant to them.

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Not really. By far most of our broadcasts are drowned out in background noise by the time they reach the edge of the solar system....

Exactly. In order for ET to 'know we're here' they'd have to use some other method. Also, I tend to think that in order for ET to deem it worthwhile to pay us a visit they'd have to have some compelling reason. I honestly wonder if ET would actually care that much...even if they were to find us.

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Posted (edited)

Exactly. In order for ET to 'know we're here' they'd have to use some other method. Also, I tend to think that in order for ET to deem it worthwhile to pay us a visit they'd have to have some compelling reason. I honestly wonder if ET would actually care that much...even if they were to find us.

Exactly, Lilly.

I can't help thinking that the ET race capable of detecting our presence AND traveling here would probably have done that extensively already and we would just be another data set to visit when convenient, if ever.

The ones really intersted would probably be close to our technological level, have detected our presence as the only one or one out of a select few, but not technologically capable of doing anything with that knowledge.

Then again, who am I to try and figure out what ET would do. Not only can I not even begin to pretend that we know the psychology of ET, but just look at Earth and how biologists here marvel at even the smallest insect when it is revealed as a new species.

Cheers,

Badeskov

Edited by badeskov

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It's not our signals that will give us away; it's the free oxygen in our atmosphere. Once they get a spectrum of the Earth, they will immediately signal it as a planet of interest. It won't take much more for an advanced science to figure out what we are and at what level.

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Not really. By far most of our broadcasts are drowned out in background noise by the time they reach the edge of the solar system. Contrary to common belief, very few radio signals emitted from Earth actually has the power and directivity to be picked up outside of the Solar system.

Cheers,

Badeskov

It really depends on the sensitivity of the Instrumentation that is collecting the "noise" and its ability to determine what is background, and what is signal. Terrestrially, radio astronomy is making enormous advances in this area, and information that was simply undetectable 20 years ago is now the norm. Not that any irrefutably or replicable intelligent Data Signals have been discovered.

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Posted (edited)

,,,who am I to try and figure out what ET would do.

Cheers,

Badeskov

Good observation. :w00t:

Cheers,

L

Edited by the L

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Very small signals can be detected over significant distances with good equipment. The transmitter on the voyager spacecraft is only a quarter of a watt yet can still be received here on Earth by NASA. It is now so far away that the signals from it take 18hrs to get here, that's at around 186000 miles per second. You wouldn't hear it on anything you could build at home though.

Digital TV from satellites is relatively low power and beamed towards the planet so it is not going to be easily detectable over any significant distance. Terrestrial digital TV transmitters are still high power and radiate tens if not hundreds of kilowatts. This may not act as a beacon to extraterrestrials though as the TV broadcasters use a low angle of radiation to provide as much signal strength to their service area as possible. They don't want to waste money radiating signals up and away from the planet.

The sort of thing that does light us up like a Xmas tree is planetary surface mapping by radar and high powered military radars. Planetary surface mapping is done from Aricebo. I wouldn't doubt it's done from other radio telescopes in other countries too. When they looked at Jupiter with the high power radar they couldn't see it, all they could see were Jupiter's moons. The planet didn't return a radar 'echo' as it has no solid core, it's just a large ball of gas. The thing is, to get a radar echo from the moons of Jupiter you have to transmit a very high power radar signal, a signal so powerful that it would travel a significant distance through the galaxy. I think it would be difficult for any alien SETI type installation to not pick it up.

The other thing is METI, Messaging to Extra Terrestrial Intelligence. They broadcast a signal from Aricebo in the late seventies with an effective radiated power of 3 Terawatts. One of the people involved in the broadcast said it was so powerful that if you were sitting on a planet orbiting the closest star to ours you would be able to hear it on a transistor radio. I think the Russians had a go at METI too, although many warn against it issuing the same warnings as Steven Hawking.

I think any technologically advanced species out there knows we're here. Maybe some of them even have the technology to get here and take a look around. Maybe we'll find out in the not too distant future, for better or worse.

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I for one would hope that a civilisation that's is apparently far more advanced than us, would be more enlightened to simply make the same mistakes we have in the past. This isn't a hollywood movie. If we as a people are capable of seeing what we did back in the day was wrong now, then why should an advanced civilisation be any less enlightened. Though there is a possibility they are a war like species. But we can only go up, sooner or later it needs to be done.

I just don't want to be so quick to believe that an alien species would just be so narrow minded as to wipe us off the map.

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Posted (edited)

I for one would hope that a civilisation that's is apparently far more advanced than us, would be more enlightened to simply make the same mistakes we have in the past. This isn't a hollywood movie. If we as a people are capable of seeing what we did back in the day was wrong now, then why should an advanced civilisation be any less enlightened. Though there is a possibility they are a war like species. But we can only go up, sooner or later it needs to be done.

I just don't want to be so quick to believe that an alien species would just be so narrow minded as to wipe us off the map.

It probably wouldn't be narrow-mindedness, if this were to happen it would be due to pragmatism, they probably wouldn't have a choice. The conditions on this planet may be ideal for them, and they may need somewhere to live.

Although many hundreds of extra-solar planets have been discovered even the ones in the 'goldilocks zone' of their star don't have a protective magnetic field, or don't rotate, or don't have a suitable atmosphere etc. It may be that the great majority of planets out there are like that, just useless rocks or gas giants. The combination of correct distance from star, water, gravity, and atmosphere, a protective magnetic field and decent sized moon to keep the planet orbit stable that we have here seems to be very, very rare from what we've seen so far. If the conditions we have here are ideal conditions for an advanced extraterrestrial species that are capable of inter-stellar travel, and need a new planet to live on, we could be screwed.

Consider too that they would be the dominant species on their planet, so they, just like us, would be predators. They would do whatever was required to ensure the continuation of their species. And it will be about 200 years before we could realistically defend ourselves against an attack from an aggressive alien species. So, if it doesn't happen soon we should be Ok.

Edited by Occams Razor

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Posted (edited)

That whole bulleton was written around the idea that Aliens are stupid. They aren't stupid, they've been around longer, they've been guiding us behind the scene's often times from within our own cultures. Our dimension isn't the only dimension. There are other dimensions from which the alien can observe us and effect us from. Although we want them to land and approach us and bedazzle us with their technology and their difference, they know all to well that should this happen, they would be met with fear. There is two polarities on this earth the positive and the negative, sad to say though that the negative dominates the positive here. Unlike us, alien races would be less wasteful and less destructive with their desires. The human race is very wasteful when it comes to money and will spend it on one's own desires rather than to add to the benefit of the whole. Whatever advanced or new technology is discovered or created the governemt, millitary, and corporations will quickly hoard them so that technology like free energy never makes it to the surface where it can help the world to thrive and move off from the planet to other planets in space or add to the interest of space exploration. The government has technology that is 30 years more advanced than whats in the public sector. NASA is spending millions of dollars and getting other corporations to do the same on old technology. At the same time, it won't spend money to help the starving and those who need clothing and shelter, we have a policy of self extermination and unreasonable degradation of our own kind and the reason they say is because they are not american and should not be allowed to enjoy the freedoms that Americans enjoy. All the same Americans are but Strawmen too and fast asleep in selfishness. In order to keep from allowing our culture to advance in ways that are dangerous to other life forms in our galaxy or around it, our race must develope slowly to keep us from being too destructive to life forms and planets else where. If they aid our technological advancement too much we will spread like a disease carrying our ways with us into the further reaches of the universe and lets face it, our universe doesn't need another Gitmo and probably has moved on way past the practices of Gitmo.

We are about to go to war again. There are plans for a World War 4, most people don't even realize that we had World War 3 already, that was the whole point,,, to keep you asleep while it went on, to keep you doped up on paid TV personalities who give you fragmented information and at the same time shake their head yes in a manner that will cause you to agree with their garbage and then they'll shake their head no and cause you to agree with the alternative garbage, right wing or left wing, it's part of the same bird.

I hope thats enough reasons why ET's won't have anything to do with us. It's because they are smart. We are not ready for new and advanced technology because we have a culture of death, if ET's get involved with us, there's a chance it could spread.

Edited by nothinglizx2

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Posted (edited)

To truly advanced and fully evolved entities beyond our solar system--if they take notice of us, at all--we are nothing more than crickets, chirping in the dark. To them, we are primitive and arrogant specks of protoplasm, puffed up with pride because our species has become adept at chipping flint. We are tiny, finite and insignificant, save to ourselves, and the universe is vast, infinite and timeless. That shriveled little man in the wheelchair is right; we should proceed with great caution. Our blue planet is a verdant oasis in a vast cosmic desert, and an ideal place, perhaps, for another species to propagate it's own kind.

Edited by hammerclaw

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