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Ban to fail students who challenge science

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God forbid that science classes should actually teach science, rather than everyone's opinion.

Words such as "I voted for Obama".

Hey Tiggs the mod, thanks for posting

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Yes, because trying to refute decades of archaeological research using tried and tested methods of dating fossils proving that humans didn't even exist during the age of the dinosaurs is actually a step forwards for science.

Really America? When something is inconclusively proven to be true, it cannot be debated. Pure and simple.

The article mentions dinosaurs or not the bill itself. Even evolution has parts to it that are extremely mucky. What constitutes as a species is highly debatable. It's cool though making snap judgements on an article that was written to scare people.

What would you rather kids actually learn and understand why what they were taught is wrong or should we just fail them because their parents taught them wrong?

Seriously thees are kids. They do not have decades of information at hand. They have information given to them from their parents. If they kids can't question about what they were taught by their parents vs what they are being taught in school how would they know which is right?

Think of the predicament kids are in when it comes to school. Since schools do the same thing parents do. I am right because I said so. Who would you trust in that situation? Somebody who feeds you, protects you, knew you for all of your life or somebody you known for less then a year and you are forced to go see. Allowing kids to discuss a subject can break the parents teaching. Most good teachers do this already.

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Man made global warming IS a debatable topic. Climate change is not. The climate is shifting. We can argue till the cows come home as to whether it is natural cycle, a solar/celestial cycle or created by burning of fossil fuels...doesn't matter. The Climate IS shifting. Sadly the debate roars on and nothing gets discussed on what will be done to deal with the long term ramifications...

Sorry, that is a rant I have had many times...who cares what is causing it? If you do not prepare for the likelihood that this will be a long term proposition...everyone loses.

Well, exactly. if the massed armies of Experts would devote a bit of their time to considering how people could best adapt to changing climates, (since climates of course always have changed over tiome and always will do), rather than just shouting "Climate change is real and Irreversible,and it's all your fault!! You're destroying Planet Earth!!!!", perhaps the "skeptics" might be more prepared to listen to them. As it is, a,lot of people just tend to dismiss them as just another bunch doom mongers who keep shouting all the time. Really, it's very counterproductive.

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Even evolution has parts to it that are extremely mucky.

However, the notion that humans and dinosaurs existed together has been proven, conclusively, to be false. This is an undeniable fact.

What constitutes as a species is highly debatable.

For people that don't know what a species is, that is.

What would you rather kids actually learn and understand why what they were taught is wrong or should we just fail them because their parents taught them wrong?

I was under the impression that the US was a secular state and thus public schools (or whatever the US equivalents are). If these students (or their parents) wanted them to have religious teachings, send them to a religious school. That's what they are there for.

They do not have decades of information at hand.

Then they are pretty ****ty schools then if they do not teach information based on decades of research and evidence, or cannot access materials that have such information be it in electronic form or the humble book.

If they kids can't question about what they were taught by their parents vs what they are being taught in school how would they know which is right?

Do you honestly think that what a child learns about the world other than right and wrong is better than what they are taught at school? What if the parents told them that 2+2=6? Would that be considered right just because their parents said so?

Allowing kids to discuss a subject can break the parents teaching. Most good teachers do this already.

Science and maths is different to that of social studies. The latter is best for open discussions because nothing is set in concrete.

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Of course, Science, as Scientists would be the first to admit, (or should, unless, like Dawkins, they've become so wrapped up in the worship of Science that they see it as a religion) can only really say what hasn't been disproven at that stage. They can never state categorically that something is true or these are the defnitive rules and these will never change; it's always 'this is the state of the art right now, but we might discover something that could cause us to change what we believe at some point in the future'. Therefore, stating scientific Facts is not actually scientific.

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However, the notion that humans and dinosaurs existed together has been proven, conclusively, to be false. This is an undeniable fact.

You missed my point that the article mentions dinosaurs not the bill.

For people that don't know what a species is, that is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_problem

I was under the impression that the US was a secular state and thus public schools (or whatever the US equivalents are). If these students (or their parents) wanted them to have religious teachings, send them to a religious school. That's what they are there for.

Agreed, but not even relevant. It's a bill to allow questions to be asked. Not a bill to allow religion to be taught in school.

Then they are pretty ****ty schools then if they do not teach information based on decades of research and evidence, or cannot access materials that have such information be it in electronic form or the humble book.

Again you missed the point. That was relating to the students not the school.

Do you honestly think that what a child learns about the world other than right and wrong is better than what they are taught at school? What if the parents told them that 2+2=6? Would that be considered right just because their parents said so?

You missed the point completely. I never said anything about something like that being right nor does the bill. It would merely let the kid ask... hey wait a minute my parents said 2+2=6, then the teacher would show them why it doesn't. If they said 2+2=6 on the test they would still get it wrong.

Science and maths is different to that of social studies. The latter is best for open discussions because nothing is set in concrete.

I said subject eluding to anything like creationism and that dinosaur thing not actual school subjects.

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I never did understand why the secular world is so hung up on this fact? How something that may or may not have taken place a couple million or just 6,000 yrs ago is going to keep someone from learning scientific principles? Is this really science or speculation? I don't see how they can truly present this hypothesis as a fact? Isn't that bad science? until someone creates a time machine it can only be a hypothesis. If the liberal left would just let go of their religious dogma of evolution and start teaching science(as in observable facts) maybe our children can get around to solving some of the worlds problems. I have a friend who grew up in "we don't believe in god" communist russia and he learned evolution and creationism as theories and then moved on. because at the end of the day does it really matter? please someone tell me how this effects me still driving around in a car still powered by technology invented in a time when the majority of the population still went to church on sunday and didn't know or really care about evolution?

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Also most people knew that the world was flat. That's why crossing the Atlantic wasn't done until the very end of the 15th century (with the exception of a small viking colony in Newfoundland).

Negative. Most people knew the earth wasn't flat.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/busting-a-myth-about-columbus-and-a-flat-earth/2011/10/10/gIQAXszQaL_blog.html

http://jameshannam.com/flatearth.htm

http://creation.com/the-flat-earth-myth-and-creationism

There are plenty more if you just google "Flat Earth myth".

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it doesn't matter really if dorma was flat earth or position in divine cosmos.

what is important is that church's view was the only truth, anything else was a heresy.

and i'm pretty sure, poor peasants, that never went farther than 10-20 miles away from the place they were born, in their life,, had no frigging clue how it really was, chirch's word was the only undisputable truth, and 500 or so years ago, there was more of those ppl than ones with title and education.

so yea most ppl did believe in what church said, (weather it was flat earth or the sun revolves around earth...etc ) than those that not.

Edited by aztek

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it doesn't matter really if dorma was flat earth or position in divine cosmos.

what is important is that church's view was the only truth, anything else was a heresy.

and i'm pretty sure, poor peasants, that never went farther than 10-20 miles away from the place they were born, in their life,, had no frigging clue how it really was, chirch's word was the only undisputable truth, and 500 or so years ago, there was more of those ppl than ones with title and education.

so yea most ppl did believe in what church said, (weather it was flat earth or the sun revolves around earth...etc ) than those that not.

Then did it really matter?

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You missed my point that the article mentions dinosaurs not the bill.

Nope. I didn't miss the point.

It's a bill to allow questions to be asked. Not a bill to allow religion to be taught in school.

It's a question born out of religion. It's pretty much tantamount to saying "hey, the Earth really isn't billions of years old, it's just 6,000".

Again you missed the point. That was relating to the students not the school.

And no again. You obviously didn't see the point I made that students have access to information based on decades of research and evidence.

You missed the point completely.

No I haven't and if you keep saying this because I dismissed your entire argument then there is no point in continuing this.

I said subject eluding to anything like creationism and that dinosaur thing not actual school subjects.

And as I said, it shouldn't be discussed, period. Science is no place for religion.

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How something that may or may not have taken place a couple million or just 6,000 yrs ago is going to keep someone from learning scientific principles?

Because there is evidence of this. If we look at the dinosaurs existing alongside humans fallacy, any archaeologists who dig these fossils from the ground have the ability to date the rocks themselves and those surrounding said fossils using radio carbon dating or radio argon dating. Not only this, but the earliest human fossils have been found way above where the latest dinosaur fossils have been found? Why? Because millions of years of dirt and sediment have buried them before the first humans died. Simple.

If the liberal left would just let go of their religious dogma of evolution and start teaching science(as in observable facts) maybe our children can get around to solving some of the worlds problems.

Wait, what? Isn't the US supposed to be a secular state? And if you wanted your child to learn about religion and whatnot, why couldn't you send them to a religious school?

please someone tell me how this effects me still driving around in a car still powered by technology invented in a time when the majority of the population still went to church on sunday and didn't know or really care about evolution?

Really, no clue in that head of yours is there?

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Because there is evidence of this. If we look at the dinosaurs existing alongside humans fallacy, any archaeologists who dig these fossils from the ground have the ability to date the rocks themselves and those surrounding said fossils using radio carbon dating or radio argon dating. Not only this, but the earliest human fossils have been found way above where the latest dinosaur fossils have been found? Why? Because millions of years of dirt and sediment have buried them before the first humans died. Simple.

Wait, what? Isn't the US supposed to be a secular state? And if you wanted your child to learn about religion and whatnot, why couldn't you send them to a religious school?

Really, no clue in that head of yours is there?

My main point to this discussion is why do we have to hammer this home to our students? what is the point? the liberals say it is because america is slipping in the sciences compared with the rest of the world well guess what we were put on top by people who didn't learn either evolution or creationism in school. they learned science. we haven't had a meaningful technological break through since the 1960's which interestly is when they took the bible out of school. in WW 2 the fire direction computers on the battleships were mechanical( gears and crap no windows operating system) and they were damn accurate and the people who made them onlty had their brain and a slide rule i dare say there isn't a college graduated engineer in the last 20 to 30 years that could do the same. If we would focus more on teaching and less on indoctrunation we would be farther ahead. I just think if we used as the basis for our sciences the writtings of H.G. Wells and Jules Vern and not Darwin I could have my flying car and my summer house on mars.

to your first point. How does this effect my life if my great grandfather to the 100 degree had a pet sauropod? is this going to help me live a longer happier life?

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My main point to this discussion is why do we have to hammer this home to our students? what is the point?

Conversely, why do you think we should allow religious discussions into science?

the liberals say it is because america is slipping in the sciences compared with the rest of the world well guess what we were put on top by people who didn't learn either evolution or creationism in school.

And it looks to me like the US is slipping on the English language also. Punctuation is sorely lacking on this forum. Also, what did they learn in science about how mankind came to be if they weren't either taught about creationism or evolution? That humans fell from a magical tree like fruit?

they learned science.

Science is a broad term. One cannot learn "science" anymore than one can learn "maths". You get the basics of everything in science such as physics, biology, astronomy etc. in the same way that you learn the basics of maths like calculus.

we haven't had a meaningful technological break through since the 1960's which interestly is when they took the bible out of school. in WW 2 the fire direction computers on the battleships were mechanical( gears and crap no windows operating system) and they were damn accurate and the people who made them onlty had their brain and a slide rule i dare say there isn't a college graduated engineer in the last 20 to 30 years that could do the same. If we would focus more on teaching and less on indoctrunation we would be farther ahead. I just think if we used as the basis for our sciences the writtings of H.G. Wells and Jules Vern and not Darwin I could have my flying car and my summer house on mars.

As I said, you really don't have a clue do you? If you're holding Darwin to the same scientific standards as novelists whose flights of science fiction result in such classics like "War of the Worlds" then you really shouldn't be posting. Darwin's works were based on years and years of research in the field. H.G Wells basically speculated on what the future, or indeed, what extraterrestrials may take the form of and wrote it down.

And in any case, with such a shocking grasp of the English language, I'm not surprised you would make such stupid claims.

to your first point. How does this effect my life if my great grandfather to the 100 degree had a pet sauropod? is this going to help me live a longer happier life?

Well, for people like you who don't seem to take an interest in things outside their own insulated lives, it doesn't. To people who have even a basic interest in life before civilisation and how we came to be, it does. Certainly, I would like to see how us as a species rose above other hominids to dominate the planet as we do today.

And the starting point for this is to clarify that humans didn't inhabit the planet at the same time dinosaurs did. Hell, humans at one point would have been considered an endangered species.

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What makes you qualified to say so much about American politics or social ideals Michael W. ? Need ta know what why you think your ideas are so much more profound then those of us that actually live here ?

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What makes you qualified to say so much about American politics or social ideals Michael W. ?

I frequent many other forums with Americans on them and politics and I asked questions. I'm just as informed as you are.

Need ta know what why you think your ideas are so much more profound then those of us that actually live here ?

Intelligence of course, as well as an opinion from an inhabitant of the civilised world. After all, the very benevolent moderation thought it fair to restrict me from disproving the arguments of those who frequented the Middle East forums so I figured the US would be full of just as many Neanderthals beating their clubs over conspiracy theories.

And I was right.

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I think this bill is a bad idea, it could be used to further means of religion groups to thrust themselves into government positions. You know how that ends up when religion and the state combine, it usually ends in complete tyranny while surpressing scientific advancements because it goes against their holy texts. It makes me even more sad, that it is happening here in Oklahoma, my birthplace and my home. Is our government getting ignorant and uninformed with each generation? Apparently so...

Edited by Uncle Sam

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we haven't had a meaningful technological break through since the 1960's

here's the arrow thru your entire argument - that thing your typing on..... :whistle:

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The article mentions dinosaurs or not the bill itself. Even evolution has parts to it that are extremely mucky. What constitutes as a species is highly debatable. It's cool though making snap judgements on an article that was written to scare people.

What would you rather kids actually learn and understand why what they were taught is wrong or should we just fail them because their parents taught them wrong?

Seriously thees are kids. They do not have decades of information at hand. They have information given to them from their parents. If they kids can't question about what they were taught by their parents vs what they are being taught in school how would they know which is right?

Think of the predicament kids are in when it comes to school. Since schools do the same thing parents do. I am right because I said so. Who would you trust in that situation? Somebody who feeds you, protects you, knew you for all of your life or somebody you known for less then a year and you are forced to go see. Allowing kids to discuss a subject can break the parents teaching. Most good teachers do this already.

That's a great point :)

I liked college since there were a lot of open discussions instead of a this is unrefutable fact like teaching in most of the lower grades. Good teachers RULE because they allow it.

Reminds me of the guy who was suspended in Catholic school because of a theology class. They were discussing the pagans, the crusades and the commandment not to have idols and statues etc. He spoke out that the crusades was a way to pillage others and bring back riches to the church and what are all the statues of saints that we bow down and pray to but idols? you're making me a pagan!

Now seriously, if he had a good teacher, she would have explained why she didn't believe that it was the same thing. No the nun hit him and had him suspended instead. Then he went home to get spanked by his mom and dad too. He might have remained a Catholic instead of just wanting to leave all religious thoughts behind when he finally got out of school!

It's weird, but if they teach science without an open debate now and then, it could have the same effect in the opposite direction too :(

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I think this bill is a bad idea, it could be used to further means of religion groups to thrust themselves into government positions. You know how that ends up when religion and the state combine, it usually ends in complete tyranny while surpressing scientific advancements because it goes against their holy texts. It makes me even more sad, that it is happening here in Oklahoma, my birthplace and my home. Is our government getting ignorant and uninformed with each generation? Apparently so...

Come now, are you saying that religious types or ideas are gaining MORE prominence or power in today's educational system? It is clearly the opposite.

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My main point to this discussion is why do we have to hammer this home to our students? what is the point?

Education, you ever heard of it?

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Posted (edited)

Come now, are you saying that religious types or ideas are gaining MORE prominence or power in today's educational system? It is clearly the opposite.

No religion is allowed to dominate any government or school institution for a reason. Lately Christian groups have been pushing hard to advance their means in political environment as well as school environment. It would lead to a loss of scientific education for students, essential skills for competing in today's world. It means it is not mandatory anymore for students to actively learn science and further their understanding of their world around them and that means they can be swayed to give up science for religion by very forceful religions.

Most religious people I have ran into condemn me to hell because I believe in evolution and scientific understanding, it hurts the children because they can be used by religions with an agenda. Every religious groups I met, that gets involved with politics and schools always have a agenda, which leads to them furthering their religious values onto the students. There are many types of people who personally practice religion in the school, I believe it should stay that way, not have one group of religion dominate over all other religions.

I'm a Atheist. I know how all religions equally hate us Atheists and despise science. Pretty much deal with the ignorance and name calling every single day.

Edited by Uncle Sam
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here's the arrow thru your entire argument - that thing your typing on..... :whistle:

I'm pretty sure that keyboards were around before the 1960s. I saw a film with a typewriter in once, and that was in Black & White.

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That's a great point :)

I liked college since there were a lot of open discussions instead of a this is unrefutable fact like teaching in most of the lower grades. Good teachers RULE because they allow it.

Reminds me of the guy who was suspended in Catholic school because of a theology class. They were discussing the pagans, the crusades and the commandment not to have idols and statues etc. He spoke out that the crusades was a way to pillage others and bring back riches to the church and what are all the statues of saints that we bow down and pray to but idols? you're making me a pagan!

that was exactly what the Puritans said about the Catholics after the Reformation...

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here's the arrow thru your entire argument - that thing your typing on..... :whistle:

sorry out of the loop for a bit. But anyway I feel I need to respond to this a..."comment" .. REALLY do you have any freaking clue about what you type or do just wing it? a little research on your part will relieve the rest of us from getting so frustrated with you. computers have been around since yes the 60's the apollo missions were not flown by hand. now granted the computer has been refined since then as has the internet(which was not created by Al Gore) but it was created with 60's tech so try again if you dare.

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