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Troubling Doctrines For Christians

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There are situations like that, I agree with you. The father, however, kept his distance, and he still has a choice to really go out of his way to help his son...but I can only go by my experience. There's so much to say, and in the end, what is the father doing about it now? The son is out there. I hope he doesn't end up like the mentally handicapped guy in Fullerton who got bitten up...

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Sherapy.

Peace.

I understand your concerns, my heart goes out to his family, perhaps you could pray he will find his way back to his dad.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts also Brave2you. All the best.

Edited by Sherapy

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Exactly. If the son wishes to change, I know this guy well enough to know he'll be there to support him through it. But at this stage in his life, this is the best thing, as tough as it may be.

Let us hope for this in this situation.

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There comes a moment when you have to say to someone "for your own good, I cannot enable you any longer". You mistake unconditional love with being a door mat. Yes, the father withdrew his support. But it's not like he didn't try (and I know he tried), but if he kept on allowing his son to stay at his house, then he's just enabling his behaviour, giving his son absolutely no reason to change.

Your opinion on his medical state is noted, I've met the son a few times and I've never noticed bipolar traits, though bipolar disorder can exist for long times in a state of apparent dormancy.

You have a very different definition of "love" than what I do. You quote 1 Corinthians 13, which I agree with, but you've interpreted very differently to how I would have done so.

"There is always an element of doubt in (human) love". Curious interpretation of the post, that's not how I would have rephrased his words. His comment had nothing to do with doubt. Not that I could see, at least. It's just pointing out that not liking a person's actions does not mean they are not loved.

Hi PA,

Would I be able to live with myself knowing that there's a way to help the person I REALLY love? That has always been the bottom line for me. We all handle certain situations differently -- that's a given, and I certainly know that too well. I'm sharing with you what I would do, and even though the situations I have come to accept and soldiered on were not the same as the father/son situation, I can only say that I have no regrets. Regret is such a sad state and leaves a sour note in one's consciousness, heart. Unfortunately, regret is a reality in itself, just as much as triumph, catharsis, redemption, and so on. It's only revealed after the climactic ending. In the end, it's your friend's call.

That's really what I'm trying to get across to you.

Human love to be deepened is never a pleasant thing. "Doormat" is really a false analogy when it comes to love being "deepened" (since I detest the word "tested"), but ultimately, it's inevitable to find that out, especially if one's inclination is the spiritual life.

Peace to you, always.

Edited by braveone2u

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I understand your concerns, my heart goes out to his family, perhaps you could pray he will find his way back to his dad.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts also Brave2you. All the best.

You have a very sweet disposition, Sherapy. Yes, I did pray for a good outcome the moment I finished reading PA's post. God bless.

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I think children who are disciplined -- physically or emotionally through scolding or deprivations -- can become rebellious and hateful, and end up stealing from their parents and running away and even fighting back (certainly talking back).

This is not natural. The natural desire of a child is to please its parents. The natural desire of parents is to love their children.

How is it then that most families are so messed up, and all are a little messed up? Reading some of the above messages has reminded me of how disfunctional so many families end up being.

A child who is rewarded with love and other more tangible ways (they are children after all) but not punished -- who is often reminded that they are loved and that the parents are proud of them -- does not need to be punished more than a frown or a "please do not do that." I know many parents find this hard to believe, but it is true. Where parents find they have to use real discipline they have already failed -- they have already planted the seeds of rebellion through impatience or through working out their own problems on their children.

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Since I tend not to believe in deities, perhaps I cannot comment on God, but, then, on the other hand, I can be objective on the subject. I see God as a parent much as in my just-posted message. A loving God does not punish; such a thing would be impossible in such a God. It is possible in us only because we are not gods, but we should not project our limitations onto Him.

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A loving God does not punish; such a thing would be impossible in such a God. It is possible in us only because we are not gods, but we should not project our limitations onto Him.

You never stop to amaze me, Frank. I completely agree with you. Punish, that un-God-like word. "In seeking the truth about suffering, we come closer to understanding the character of God." A woman said this on television because I think it's easy to close off, find an excuse to be counted out, and miss this opportunity, this invitation, especially when our culture tells us to avoid suffering and gravitate to those who will reinforce our self-congratulatory nature (disguised as love). I believe it was a Christian documentary about suffering. Peace.

--------------------------------

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hears my voice, and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will eat with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20

"Be very careful, then, how you live--not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is." Ephesians 5:15-17

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Not sure how punishment is a limitation. Trying to say that love and punishment are mutually exclusive to God (that he can only do one or the other) is what sounds like the real limitation.

I might accept the statement that "We know nothing about God, if God exists at all" but in doing so, any religious belief is nullified.

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Yea talking about God inevitably limits Him. If I say He is smart, then He can't be dumb.

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I think children who are disciplined -- physically or emotionally through scolding or deprivations -- can become rebellious and hateful, and end up stealing from their parents and running away and even fighting back (certainly talking back).

This is the opposite of my experience. The adults I meet who are able to make difficult, mature decisions, and who are respectable and respectful are people who were raised by parents who loved them enough to set definite limits that were explained to them along with the consequences of violating those limits.
This is not natural. The natural desire of a child is to please its parents. The natural desire of parents is to love their children.
Really? The natural reactions I see from children of all races, family situation or economic standing are to be self-centered. Sharing, saying, "Please" and "Thank you," being respectful of other people and their property are all things that have to be taught.
How is it then that most families are so messed up, and all are a little messed up? Reading some of the above messages has reminded me of how disfunctional so many families end up being.

A child who is rewarded with love and other more tangible ways (they are children after all) but not punished -- who is often reminded that they are loved and that the parents are proud of them -- does not need to be punished more than a frown or a "please do not do that." I know many parents find this hard to believe, but it is true. Where parents find they have to use real discipline they have already failed -- they have already planted the seeds of rebellion through impatience or through working out their own problems on their children.

Allowing children to do as they want, not being taught limitations and not being taught self-control and discipline is not love, it's at best co-dependence at worst it is disdain and disregard.
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You are I think rationalizing an old-fasioned and hurtful theory about raising children; one that is responsible for much of the trouble in the world.

Children respond to love and praise with love and joy; they respond to discipline and punishment with resentment and ultimately with hate. Show the child you love them and they will break their necks to please you.

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You are I think rationalizing an old-fasioned and hurtful theory about raising children; one that is responsible for much of the trouble in the world.

Children respond to love and praise with love and joy; they respond to discipline and punishment with resentment and ultimately with hate. Show the child you love them and they will break their necks to please you.

Frank are you suggesting that the son in Pa's story was parented in a way that lead to his stealing?

Now, my cousins son had let his grades drop and my cousin spoke to his son a few times about his grades, they didn't come up, so my cousin grounded him, which did lead to resentment and his son got upset and moved out.

when his son returned home Dad and son talked and found a program for his kid to help him with his academics, problem resolved.Father and son are very close again.

In this case-- I personally would of been concerned about my child's grades too. Now, I would of approached it with a different strategy to make sure my kid could get good grades, tutoring whatever it took first, the difference for me is I would of approached it to help (not in frustration.) I would not of grounded/punished my child as a solution.

It doesn't work IMO. I tutor kids and this seems to be the pat response, it never works and they eventually hire a tutor. Punishment-- doesn't allow for the growth that is needed. But- eventually parents get to this understanding usually via the kids rebellion. My motto is as a parent I am here to help you, I would of looked at the situation in fairness and learned from it and found a win win for all involved. Yet, in the end my cousin came to the same wisdom using his approach and I know he loves his son deeply and vice versa.

I would/do agree on a personal level and personal preference for me, that I can parent in ways that create a cooperation and respect for all concerned from the start. We have to have rules and limits, standards, teach self discipline, and self responsibility (it is not realistic/productive to let a child do whatever they choose.) (I am certain you are not suggesting this anyways) and we can parent in a way that is not harmful, I have successfully raised 3 sons with a non violent/harmful ethic. But, I have not had kids that steal etc. so in all fairness I know I would not be okay with it, and would want my kid to stop. How I would do this I'd have to think about it.

Edited by Sherapy

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No matter how well or how poorly a child is raised, nurture is only part of the story. There is also the child's basic nature, and it will out in the end. Parents can't be blamed for when a child turns out bad and often children raised in the worst environments turn out good.

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No matter how well or how poorly a child is raised, nurture is only part of the story. There is also the child's basic nature, and it will out in the end. Parents can't be blamed for when a child turns out bad and often children raised in the worst environments turn out good.

Parenting is not easy across the board. How would you of dealt with the son in Pa's story if I may ask?

Brave2U same question?

Iamson you too.

Thank you all ahead of time for your input.

Edited by Sherapy

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You are I think rationalizing an old-fasioned and hurtful theory about raising children; one that is responsible for much of the trouble in the world.

Children respond to love and praise with love and joy; they respond to discipline and punishment with resentment and ultimately with hate. Show the child you love them and they will break their necks to please you.

Your definition of love must be very shallow.

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You are I think rationalizing an old-fasioned and hurtful theory about raising children; one that is responsible for much of the trouble in the world.

Children respond to love and praise with love and joy; they respond to discipline and punishment with resentment and ultimately with hate. Show the child you love them and they will break their necks to please you.

Usually it is the abused children who are resentful.

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The only "discipline" my wife and I ever used (we raised five adopted children and several more from young ages) was taking them to a monk and having him do their magic (certain rituals that might be taken as similar to having a child go to a priest and having the priest pray with them over their misconduct), and this was rare. I think we tolerated a lot of things many parents won't, like broken dishes and late night pillow fights, but they all turned out fine with never even a voice raised.

Edited by Frank Merton
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Usually it is the abused children who are resentful.

That is what "god's" love is; abuse.

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Your opinion on his medical state is noted, I've met the son a few times and I've never noticed bipolar traits, though bipolar disorder can exist for long times in a state of apparent dormancy.

You have a very different definition of "love" than what I do. You quote 1 Corinthians 13, which I agree with, but you've interpreted very differently to how I would have done so.

Hi PA,

Unless you're a qualified clinician, bipolar condition is very hard to diagnose. Just a thought.

People who have experienced the divine (especially in the afterlife) say that "a love unlike any other" have engulfed their being or soul. That is the nature of the "unconditional love" that I have mentioned. It is unlike our imperfect, vague, human, earthly love. "Unconditional love" is not an action, and yet, it is miraculous on many levels, without going into details.

I forgot to add the link, here's the link:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=242523&st=0&p=4654422&hl=+braveone2uentry4654422

God bless, PA. You're a good soul.

Edited by braveone2u

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Hi PA,

Unless you're a qualified clinician, bipolar condition is very hard to diagnose. Just a thought.

People who have experienced the divine (especially in the afterlife) say that "a love unlike any other" have engulfed their being or soul. That is the nature of the "unconditional love" that I have mentioned. It is unlike our imperfect, vague, human, earthly love. "Unconditional love" is not an action, and yet, it is miraculous on many levels, without going into details.

I forgot to add the link, here's the link:

http://www.unexplain...u

God bless, PA. You're a good soul.

I am not sure that our vague human experience of love is as lack luster as you describe, lol. When I even think of one of my kids I am filled with a love beyond words, beyond logic, beyond description. I just know your mother fills the same about you Brave.<3 <3 :wub:

Edited by Sherapy

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I am not sure that our vague human experience of love is as lack luster as you describe, lol. When I even think of one of my kids I am filled with a love beyond words, beyond logic, beyond description. I just know your mother fills the same about you Brave.<3 <3 :wub:

Well said, Sherapy. Thank you.

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Parenting is not easy across the board. How would you of dealt with the son in Pa's story if I may ask?

Brave2U same question?

Iamson you too.

Thank you all ahead of time for your input.

Agreed, parenting is not easy. I did most of my parenting. I even went outside of my Christian religion to find what it takes to be a good human being. I became a kundalini/siddha meditation teacher a long the way. Like the song "Circle of Life," the grace of Jesus Christ brought me back to Christianity. It's truly an amazing, tough journey. Who said living is easy? Plus, my life is not over. I'm the youngest among family and friends, and some are already aging while others moved on to the otherside. I'm aging right before my very eyes.

The main problem with my parents was that they didn't have a lot time for me when I was growing up. They were actually in another country -- long story. How did I turn out like a wonderful person? I've met the best teachers the world could offer. I'm still meeting "beautiful" people. Divine guidance, grace, or not...I'm a kool guy, behold, if I may say so myself. Again, I "worked it out," without drugs and alcohol but with God always on my side.

Choice. We all have it. I have valued to find happiness above all, and the most profound thing that stays with me from my parents is their devotion to Jesus Christ. They're very devout Christians, good people, and yet, they were highly educated with master's degree. My mom's a summa cum laude. At any rate, I'm very smart, and I'm still using my prodigy mind to love Jesus Christ.

How to be a good parent? I have no answers, and I have no children. So there. Blot me out. Actually, my children are my works of art: music, video projects, and screenplays (book). On the other hand, being exposed to my Christian religion really made a big impact on me when I was kid.

Excellent question, Sherapy. God bless.

Edited by braveone2u

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Agreed, parenting is not easy. I did most of my parenting. I even went outside of my Christian religion to find what it takes to be a good human being. I became a kundalini/siddha meditation teacher a long the way. Like the song "Circle of Life," the grace of Jesus Christ brought me back to Christianity. It's truly an amazing, tough journey. Who said living is easy? Plus, my life is not over. I'm the youngest among family and friends, and some are already aging while others moved on to the otherside. I'm aging right before my very eyes.

The main problem with my parents is that they didn't have a lot time for me when I was growing up. They were actually in another country -- long story. How did I turn out like a wonderful person? I've met the best teachers the world could offer. I'm still meeting "beautiful" people. Divine guidance, grace, or not...I'm a kool guy, behold, if I may say so myself. Again, I "worked it out," without drugs and alcohol but with God always on my side.

Choice. We all have it. I have valued to find happiness above all, and the most profound thing that stays with me from my parents is their devotion to Jesus Christ. They're very devout Christians, good people, and yet, they were highly educated with master's degree. My mom's a summa cum laude. At any rate, I'm very smart, and I'm still using my prodigy mind to love Jesus Christ.

How to be a good parent? I have no answers, and I have no children. Actually, my children are my works of art: music, video projects, and screenplays (book). On the other hand, being exposed to my Christian religion really made a big impact on me when I was kid.

Excellent question, Sherapy. God bless.

Brave,Thank you for sharing.

I can infer from your posts that you are an intelligent person, religion is an aspect of who you are (a big part)with that being said your intellect speaks for itself, and that is what I look at. It sounds as if your parents were very loving in example. I am getting the sense that love was the motivating factor in how you were guided. Again-- thank you for sharing. I think I have a much better idea of your perspective now.

Edited by Sherapy
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