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ali smack

Are Jihadists damaging Islam's reputation?

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I thought the Church of England was a social club.

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This topic is not about Christianity

Seemed more like a baiting thing. But what do I know...

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Muslim extremists are damaging islam.

^This.

To expand on that simple truthful statement. Christian extremists are damaging Christianity (think Westboro Baptist Church)

Now to remind everyone...

'Spirituality vs Skepticism' board guidelines Please always respect the beliefs of other members - the bashing of specific religions, countries, races or belief systems is strictly disallowed. Several of the topics in this section cover some sensitive areas and it is important to respect the views of others; this means no flaming, no flamebaiting, no trolling and no personal attacks.

Seemed more like a baiting thing. But what do I know...

Indeed. Perhaps you missed my entire post, including the statement I quoted?

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let's put something clear

jihadists target " military " targets

extremists target " civilian " targets

terrorists target both

it's not black and white there is difference

personally i don't view a person who blow him self up in military base of enemy invading his country extremeist or terrorist

i think it's his own right to fight back and defend his homeland

on the other hand i think it's outrageous to bomb civilians or innocent people and then to stick it up in name of islam

as the religion it self prohibit such acts

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I'm unsure that Islam specifically prohibits "such acts" except against other Muslims, although I guess even that has not made much difference. If someone knows where Islam explicitly prohibits such violence against others, I would love to know the reference.

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I'm unsure that Islam specifically prohibits "such acts" except against other Muslims, although I guess even that has not made much difference. If someone knows where Islam explicitly prohibits such violence against others, I would love to know the reference.

well unfortunally because you .. like most people form your opinion before you actually know what you forming the opinion on

here let me show you what the Koran says :

whoever kills a single soul for other than a another soul or for corruption on earth it is as though he had killed the humanity all together an whoever saves a single soul it is as he had save the humanity altogether

" surah al-am'ida ayah 32 "

note : a soul for other than another soul " means other than as punishment for killing another one "

here's another

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress, for Allah loves not the transgressor. Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. ! Allah loveth not aggressors. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers." al-bagarah 190-193

and also mohammd the prophet given strict instruction in wars .. even wars in islam have rules

and here they are :

"Set out for Jihad in the name of Allah and for the sake of Allah. Do not lay hands on the old verging on death, on women, children and babes. Do not steal anything from the booty and collect together all that falls to your lot in the battlefield and do good, for Allah loves the virtuous and the pious."

and here is examples on pure islam in ancient times .. from history

abu bakr the calipha gave to his army while sending her on the expedition to the Syrian borders is permeated with the noble spirit with which the war in Islam is permitted. He said:

"Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman. nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock. save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone"

so the conclusion is ..

1-islam prohibt the killing of people from other religions .. unless they set to war against muslims

2- In War muslims are prohibted to kill innocent people , " women , elders , childrens " no combatant in general

hell islam even prohibit property damage ! read it above for your self

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Thanks for the detailed response, although you kinda ruin it by making unfounded assertions and being so defensive. I think I was open enough in my query.

I will keep these references and probably use them in future to help show that all religions emphasize human life.

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Thanks for the detailed response, although you kinda ruin it by making unfounded assertions and being so defensive. I think I was open enough in my query.

I will keep these references and probably use them in future to help show that all religions emphasize human life.

not really defensive about anything i care even less about what people think

but i like state the truth bold and straightforward that's how i am

anytime

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I thought the Church of England was a social club.

.

:-)

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Posted (edited)

i care even less about what people think

that's how i am

.

would you like me to point out just where your argument fell apart knight...?

Edited by shrooma

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http://www.thereligi...23-violence.htm

I believe the Jihadis are the only Muslims who practice a "pure" form of the faith - that is, they obey the example provided by the prophet. The vast majority of modern Muslims understand the immorality of what their scriptures call them to do and they refrain, concentrating on those verses that call them to do what most humans find pleasing - being loving and kind to friends and strangers alike. But there is no doubt that the Qur'an - in unmistakable language - calls on the devout in over a hundred verses to commit extreme violence against non believers and to show no mercy to enemies. The instances in the O.T. Bible where similar acts are recorded are specific to time and location, they are not open ended commandments that have no "expiration" date. The exhortation that "the final day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them" is as valid today as it was 1400 years ago. The greatest falsehood regarding Islam and the chief mistake of those who feel the need to defend it is that they think of it ONLY as a religion and it has never been thus. From Muhammad's time until today it has always been a religious POLITICAL system of meaning. It is about conquest and subjugation of any who do not agree with it. This is a fact. I believe the Biblical scriptures concerning the last days paint a very clear picture of a global war that consumes 1/3 of humanity and this current conflict will be the catalyst for that war. It is a war that is based on whose god is greatest. Christians and Jews and most every other flavor out there give an invitation to join. Qur'anic invitations come with the threat of force if one refuses. Those who predominate as peaceful and loving adherents of Islam are also afraid of the Jihadis and they seem to be conflicted and perhaps ashamed of themselves because they KNOW that the truest reading of the books of their religion are unmistakable in their instruction. And they do not keep all these things sacred. They therefore will not stand up against the savages among their ranks. This conflict is going to be the end of the current age of the world. Human government will not survive it and BILLIONS of souls will perish because of it.

Indeed--Jihadists are merely the honest adherents of Islam. But rather than look at the scripture, I'd like to look at the history.

Islam of course began in 7th century Arabia, and was founded in war (the Jihad of Mohammed), and then spread through war (again, Jihad), as the Arabs burst forth from Arabia, into the Levant, Middle East, and North Africa. Without this violent war Islam would be at most a short-lived religious trend specific to Arabia. So this violence is clearly an integral part of the religion itself, and these so-called extremists/jihadists are merely following the example of founders of their religion.

Contrast this to Christianity, which was born through the adaptation of Platonic philosophy to Judaism and the efforts of one chap and his followers preaching it peacefully. It then spread throughout much of the Roman Empire by offering a message of forgiveness, brotherly love, and the idea of a happy afterlife for anyone who tried to be good. The only instances of violence were those against the early Christians. Modern extremists who preach hate and practice violence do so very much against the example of the founders of their religion.

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.

would you like me to point out just where your argument fell apart knight...?

please do ,, keep in mind if i found your response not logical or based on nonsense like many other or childish jokes

i won't bother to reply to it ..

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http://www.demotix.c...ia-law-zones-uk

DO YOU WANT MORE OF THIS DS?? cos i can get loads more if you want!

The rest of your post will get the contempt it deserves.

From your article link:

So although at yesterday's press conference, Anjem Choudary claimed that this march, the start of what was described as part of the 'Islamic Emirate Project' and intended to "pave the way for the establishment of Britain’s first Islamic Emirate" had "support from a wide range of organisations", in fact it was only supported by a very small circle of him and his fellow extremists.

Although MAC had told the local press there would be a thousand marchers, the police estimate of 50-100 turned out to be accurate, despite which they had mounted a large scale policing operation as several groups were expected to come and show their opposition.

As others have pointed out these extremists are only small numbers.

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Posted (edited)

Unfortunately, most countries, where Muslims are the majority, are Islamic (meaning they're not Secular) and religious teachings also influence their culture, law, society etc. Therefore some get influenced to the point they truly believe they're dying for the righteous cause. in essence, the problem isn't Islam, but Religion.

Some Muslim migrants influence their kids even when they live in western countries. In fact these constitute the small amount of idiots you see in videos trying to introduce Shariah Law in western countries (will NEVER happen).

The Middle East and North Africa have been ruled by dictators and religious authorities since their countries became independent from foreign occupation (including the Muslim Ottoman Turks). They haven't had the chance to modernise as the West has. After all, Europe wasn't any better when they were under the grip of the Christian Church, they had the Inquisition which officially ended only, not long ago, in 1860 and caused far more barbaric deaths than Shariah Law has ever.

Edited by Paranoid Android
edited post for member
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From your article link:

As others have pointed out these extremists are only small numbers.

Have you been to Bedford, Luton or Tower Hamlets recently? Just because they are not all as loud as Choudary, does not mean they are not insisting on their own laws and schools.

My main point is, why come to a western country and insist we accept it, if I went to go to a muslim country, they would not allow me to have my own schools and laws and ask them to respect my culture and accept it, so why do they think we should here? This is not a muslim country, but the way it is going in a few years time they will have taken over many more communities. They have no interest of integrating with the west.

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You see very much the same thing in Thailand.

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Posted (edited)

The Middle East and North Africa have been ruled by dictators and religious authorities since their countries became independent from foreign occupation (including the Muslim Ottoman Turks). They haven't had the chance to modernise as the West has. After all, Europe wasn't any better when they were under the grip of the Christian Church, they had the Inquisition which officially ended only, not long ago, in 1860 and caused far more barbaric deaths than Shariah Law has ever.

-----------------------------------------

Exactly, we have moved on since then, the none christians do not want to see this kind of religious take over again!!! The muslims already want their own laws here, so what happens then? we start all over again with the dictators and religious authorities trying to take control..but here instead of the middle east!

Edited by freetoroam

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Posted (edited)

This topic is not about Christianity, however Christians need to look closely at their own blood drenched history before criticizing others.

This isnt thread about Christians but since you comment them and their ways.

Non Christhians (obviously such as you) need to look closely at their own contribution to history then talk about Christians.

World without Christianity would be realy worst world then we had.

History of Christianity is history of intellect. ;)

Edited by the L

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Listen you joker im a caucasian former uk born atheist who reverted to Islam . The shariah law requested in uk is to do with inheritance marraige and minor facets of the law! Why cant they request it? You allow jews to have their own law courts a long with other faiths, but dont allow it for muslims you biggots! Personally there is a tiny number who want uk to be a muslim shariah state. They delluded and wrong, but then we also have numties who want uk to be a white indigenous state only as well, difference is you sensationalise the muslim nut jobs cause we are flavour of the day for biggots!

Now adddress the rest of my other post! What friggin intergration do you want and refer to? You only ignore cause i always stump biggots!

What intergretation they want? Converting to christianity. Case, point, check mate. That is the only truth but they will not say it.

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This isnt thread about Christians but since you comment them and their ways.

Non Christhians (obviously such as you) need to look closely at their own contribution to history then talk about Christians.

World without Christianity would be realy worst world then we had.

History of Christianity is history of intellect. ;)

Intellect? Buddy where would christianity be if it was not for the intellect of indo,arab,persian, muslim, chinese, hindu...intelect?

While we in europe were burning witches, living in our on sewege those guys were bathing in clean bathrooms. While the christian europe was burning astronomers the other guys were exploring the far universe. Oh palis give me a brake.

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Posted (edited)

Intellect? Buddy where would christianity be if it was not for the intellect of indo,arab,persian, muslim, chinese, hindu...intelect?

While we in europe were burning witches, living in our on sewege those guys were bathing in clean bathrooms. While the christian europe was burning astronomers the other guys were exploring the far universe. Oh palis give me a brake.

Indo Hindu? Didnt understand that part. Muslim/Persian Arab? That also

Yes intellect. They didnt read origins but Christhians were not stupid. Also I dont know why you mix religion with ethnics. I guess you forget that Christhians were/are in India, Levant, Egypt and others parts of Asia. But I do agree that Chinese were center of world till industrial revolution. Ofcourse from Han. Not before.

Also burning witches comes later. And if you didnt know while Europeans have baths Arabs were under tents as tribes smelling on camel dung. Hint-Rome and Greece.In fact Arabs have little original culture. They took all mostly from Persia, Tunisia and so on.

Also since you mention astronomy please look on wiki who discover planets and moons in our solar system and heliocentrism in the first place. For quick education I could do it. It would be pleasure to me.

Although I dont negate HIGH contribution of Islam scientists trough one period of human history.

Although, again, their foundation comes from antic world and India.

:tu:

Edited by the L

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Posted (edited)

Odas if you want to bring Europeans vs Islam in this debate few things to chek before you start.(If one could do it)

1. When Europeans hugged idea that Sun is in the center- Human become center of universe.

Europeans invented what we called Humanism.

2. You might read about Roman legacy. And Greek.

Even letters you type here is Roman(European) origin.

You are little Islamocentric. I dont remember that al-something discover evloution or gravity, or telescope or microscope...for example. Thins are not cut and dry. You took just German and French scientists and they alone could beat Islam scientists in their achivements.

What I dont like in Arabs caliphates was that they didnt built roads but mosqs. I wonder was that complex from European churches?

Also I would like that you mention one Islam philosopher who didnt "worship" European philosophers? When you found him tap my shoulder.

Edited by the L

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Posted (edited)

To answer on OP question. Ofcourse that Jihadists damaging Islam reputation. But as in all religion Jihad is often used for politic purpose. And even all north african intellectuals agree that history of north Africa is history of destruction. And fact that Islam was spread by sword in their first days. There is something in the geography of Islam people rather then ideology of Islam itself. I think that agression would come from some countries no matter what religion are they.(?) Not sure. Personally I see Islam as new age religion with Abrahamic origins.

Edited by the L

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Posted (edited)

Have you been to Bedford, Luton or Tower Hamlets recently? Just because they are not all as loud as Choudary, does not mean they are not insisting on their own laws and schools.

My main point is, why come to a western country and insist we accept it, if I went to go to a muslim country, they would not allow me to have my own schools and laws and ask them to respect my culture and accept it, so why do they think we should here? This is not a muslim country, but the way it is going in a few years time they will have taken over many more communities. They have no interest of integrating with the west.

To change the Laws means to amend the Constitution. Not sure who has the power in Britain to do so but I do believe Laws in Britain have to be consistent with European Law. So I wouldn't get too hysterical about a small percentage of the 5% of Muslims living in Britain, voicing their will.

As far as coming to a western country (in this case Britain), you need to understand where this all started before you go accusing the "invaders". During WWII Britain recruited a large number of soldiers from the colonies, mainly the Indian subcontinent, as well as during the postwar reconstruction of Britain. Together with recruited labor forces from other colonies such as the West Indies and West Africa and under the special war schemes, they were eligible for gratuities and repatriation at the end of the war but a substantial number preferred to remain.

Subsequently, migration gained momentum and people come drawn in through patronage and sponsorship by these early incomers.

Most Muslims in Britain are from former colonies, largely Pakistani. Therefore most "problems" you describe today can be attributed to what Britain did yesterday. These people were invited in and served British needs at the time. When they were invited, they weren't asked or expected to change their Culture or Religion.

Ever think that the reason they bunch together and find it hard to integrate might also be because they're not accepted as British, although born there?

Edited by Black Red Devil
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Posted (edited)

Indo Hindu? Didnt understand that part. Muslim/Persian Arab? That also

Yes intellect. They didnt read origins but Christhians were not stupid. Also I dont know why you mix religion with ethnics. I guess you forget that Christhians were/are in India, Levant, Egypt and others parts of Asia. But I do agree that Chinese were center of world till industrial revolution. Ofcourse from Han. Not before.

Also burning witches comes later. And if you didnt know while Europeans have baths Arabs were under tents as tribes smelling on camel dung. Hint-Rome and Greece.In fact Arabs have little original culture. They took all mostly from Persia, Tunisia and so on.

Also since you mention astronomy please look on wiki who discover planets and moons in our solar system and heliocentrism in the first place. For quick education I could do it. It would be pleasure to me.

Although I dont negate HIGH contribution of Islam scientists trough one period of human history.

Although, again, their foundation comes from antic world and India.

:tu:

But they wasted so much years of knowlegde by blasphemy. Leonard didnt dear realease his medical knowledge, nor did Galileo Galilei get much through, as he was ordered by the pope to drop the claims.

So christianity held Humanity back also...

Edited by The Id3al Experience

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