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Ben Masada

And the Sun Stood Still

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Posted (edited)

A Time Dilation Bubble is an interesting idea, though in a traditional sci-fi show, the bubble is usually directed inwards, meaning that time for those on our planet would seemingly travel at exactly the same speed we normally expect, but for anyone outside the bubble time would travel at a different rate. In order for the sun to appear to stand still for a day, the bubble would have to be confined to earth only, thus allowing time for us to travel slower, while the sun outside appears to stand still. If it was centred around our whole solar system, the sun would appear to travel at the exact same speed it always did.

I like the idea anyway.

I like the idea as well, I was playing with possibilities when this idea came up, at least it is neat in its simplicity.

Not necessarily. First, I agree with you 100% that the story here in Luke is definitely a parable. However, as parables go, they are said/written with the purpose of conveying a key theological truth. Just one truth per parable. This is how it always works. The point of this parable is not the burning inside the fire, but rather the comment that is made with the phrase "no one will believe the truth, even if someone comes back from the dead to tell it" (paraphrased, I'm not going to look up the exact wording). In this case, the focus of the parable is not on what the state of death was like, but actually a reference to Jesus' future death, and how people are going to reject him even when he rises from the dead. We can't begin to say from this parable that the afterlife is going to be filled with burning and pain and parched thirst that is never quenched....

Hmm, here I would have to disagree, to use this particular parable in regard to Jesus own ressurection, is oblique and indirect. Only the last line would connect with the resurrection theme. The overall morality of the story is that you reap what you sow. This applies to both the rich man and to Lazarus both recieved their just reward.

Righteous and Wicked are separated at death and held till a great judgment. (1 Enoch 22; Pseudo Philo 32:13; 2 Baruch. 21:33; 30:1; 4 Ezra 4:35, 41; 7:32, 80, 85, 95, 101, 121)

As one can see the connection is not without precedent in Judaism, even if it is rejected today. It was especially evident in the 2nd temple period, of wich Jesus himself was part of.

One of two conclusions can be drawn from this, a) Jesus believed as most other Jews of the day in the things related to us in the Gospels, such as separation of the righteous and the wicked till judgement, or b ) that Jesus was in the minority in what he preached to the Jewish audience.

That books like Enoch, Baruch and a number of other pseudoepigrapha written in the inter-testamental period were not only extremely popular but well recieved and accepted by most of Judaism is self evident, thus indicating that (a) is the logical answer.

Edited by Jor-el

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Posted (edited)

Yes, the guy's an atheist. That's not the reason I posted the video. The reason I posted was because of the physics behind what would actually happen if the earth suddenly stopped spinning, for whatever reason. Disregard the atheist view point there for a minute and just take a look at the physics involved of such an occurrence an what would be involved with the rest of the story as well. I thought it would be an interesting addition to the discussion.

Edited by Mr. Miyagi
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The miracle of the sun stopping in the sky cannot be taken as the sun stopping, as that means the earth stops it rotation and that causes all sorts of secondary effects. Some other approach is needed: how about God stopping the flow of time, which among other things makes the sun appear to stop its motion.

Of course this creates the problem of how the events going on were able to continue, so we have to presume a small local bubble where time went on normally while in the rest of the universe time was stopped.

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The miracle of the sun stopping in the sky cannot be taken as the sun stopping, as that means the earth stops it rotation and that causes all sorts of secondary effects. Some other approach is needed: how about God stopping the flow of time, which among other things makes the sun appear to stop its motion.

Of course this creates the problem of how the events going on were able to continue, so we have to presume a small local bubble where time went on normally while in the rest of the universe time was stopped.

Funny, I said much the same thing a few posts ago... :yes:

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Well then we agree.

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Yes, the guy's an atheist. That's not the reason I posted the video. The reason I posted was because of the physics behind what would actually happen if the earth suddenly stopped spinning, for whatever reason. Disregard the atheist view point there for a minute and just take a look at the physics involved of such an occurrence an what would be involved with the rest of the story as well. I thought it would be an interesting addition to the discussion.

It is also stated that one cannot go faster than light in physics, but there are cheats around the issue, which do NOT contradict the physics. I mentioned one earlier. That completely circumvents the entire scene your video proposes.

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You are talking God here, but not just any God -- you are talking Jehovah. Of course he can make the sun stand still. End of debate.

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In what way does it circumvent that? If Jehovah can do anything it wishes, then why the sacrifice if himself/his don, etc... To pay for our sins? To whom would Jehovah be paying such a debt to? Why the need for a flood or to make the sun stop in the sky without dealing with the physical effects of such an occurrence? You're telling me that he must sacrifice, what? himself? A physical representation of himself? to deal with our sins in order to allow us into heaven but he isn't subject to the physical laws of the universe? The entire concept makes no sense. I guess that's why it's called faith.

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In what way does it circumvent that? If Jehovah can do anything it wishes, then why the sacrifice if himself/his don, etc... To pay for our sins? To whom would Jehovah be paying such a debt to? Why the need for a flood or to make the sun stop in the sky without dealing with the physical effects of such an occurrence? You're telling me that he must sacrifice, what? himself? A physical representation of himself? to deal with our sins in order to allow us into heaven but he isn't subject to the physical laws of the universe? The entire concept makes no sense. I guess that's why it's called faith.

Why did he create the physical laws of our universe? So that our universe could exist, without those laws there wouldn't be a universe. You can't just play with working laws and not expect consequences, that I think applies to everything you have said. When God does interfere he will use those same laws to his advantage If God can manipulate time and its flow, then everything on that video id BS and stupid to even consider, since time manipulation will allow you to do everything that is needed to satisfy the text.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/05/04/einstein-proven-right-again/

If you can manipulate the physical universe you don't have to go breaking the laws of physics to get the effect you need.

The big problem is that you are trying to do so without quite knowing what it is you need to do. I don't need a million or trillion tons of explosive to stop the earth in its tracks, If you can manipulate time and gravity you get the same result for pretty much zero energy wastage.

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Sorry for the typos etc.. I'm on my phone lol. I'd like to add that is not my video. I just linked to it. We're dealing with a being that exists outside if space and time yet is subject to the laws of sin or at least must pay for sin in some way with a sacrifice of himself/ his son within our physical universe yet is not subject to physical laws of the universe. I'm. Not attempting to question your faith or anything I'm just confused by the possibility of the story entirely. I mean.. If the earth suddenly stopped spinning... The video clearly describes the consequences of such an occurrence. You can defer to deified magic I suppose, that's just where we'll have to agree to disagree there my friend.

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It's not what you would need to cause the earth to stop spinning that intrigues me its the results of doing so and again, the idea that Jehovah apparently needs a sacrifice within our physical reality in order to compensate for sin but is not subject to the physical laws of that same reality. It makes no sense to me personally.

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Sorry for the typos etc.. I'm on my phone lol. I'd like to add that is not my video. I just linked to it. We're dealing with a being that exists outside if space and time yet is subject to the laws of sin or at least must pay for sin in some way with a sacrifice of himself/ his son within our physical universe yet is not subject to physical laws of the universe. I'm. Not attempting to question your faith or anything I'm just confused by the possibility of the story entirely. I mean.. If the earth suddenly stopped spinning... The video clearly describes the consequences of such an occurrence. You can defer to deified magic I suppose, that's just where we'll have to agree to disagree there my friend.

I'm not deferring to magic of any kind, I'm stating that the laws of the universe to not prohibit said effects. As I said, God does not make the laws then go about interrupting them when he feels like it, but he can manipulate them. As I said earlier, we have theoretical solutions to doing just that in physics, we could do exactly the same if we knew how.

I would also add that God is NOT subject to the law of sin. That is a uniquely human condition as such it can only be overcome within the context of the human condition.

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It's not what you would need to cause the earth to stop spinning that intrigues me its the results of doing so and again, the idea that Jehovah apparently needs a sacrifice within our physical reality in order to compensate for sin but is not subject to the physical laws of that same reality. It makes no sense to me personally.

Does the text state in any way that anything actually stopped? Or did the witness merely state the effects he himself witnessed irrespective of what was actually happening?

If time flowed on earth at a significantly different tempo than the rest of the universe, you would have exactly the effect described, The sun and moon would seem to stop in the sky. If you could percieve events at 100 times that of normal, the rest of the world would also seem to pause, even if no such thing actually happened. Such an event doesn't need all the hallabaloo that the video proposed.

As for your comment on Jehova, I think I answered that in my earlier post.

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I would think that a god manipulating the laws of the universe would be a prime example of deified magic. secondly, If god is not subject to the laws of sin the why the need for a sacrifice of a physical representation of himself or his son or however you wish to refer to Jesus for us.To whom was this sacrifice made and in our physical universe for that matter? He had to compensate for sin in our physical universe but is not subject to the physical laws of our universe. I just don't understand it. I may never understand. If it makes sense to you then carry on my friend!

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I would think that a god manipulating the laws of the universe would be a prime example of deified magic. secondly, If god is not subject to the laws of sin the why the need for a sacrifice of a physical representation of himself or his son or however you wish to refer to Jesus for us.To whom was this sacrifice made and in our physical universe for that matter? He had to compensate for sin in our physical universe but is not subject to the physical laws of our universe. I just don't understand it. I may never understand. If it makes sense to you then carry on my friend!

You know you bring in an interesting point here. If Jesus was the egocentric personification of g-d, needing to be brought from the supernatural realm into physical realm to forgive g-d's mistake of creating beings that acted on their dual nature (sin) and to cancel out the consequence of death not only did that fail. (humans still have dual natures and they still act on them and death is the reality for us all eventually.) It seems confusing to me too and when it is this confusing for me this is a clear sign of "Houston we have a problem."

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Let me put it to you just one small thing you forget, God, as far as I know continues to be God, the maker of this universe, the maker of the laws which govern this universe. If he wants to suspend the rotation of the earth for a day, he can certainly do so, or are you somehow going to argue against that?

No, I never argue against hypotheses. "If He wants to..." Yes, but that's not what He did. If God wants, He can do everything but one: The thing you wish He did or should have done.

From the outlook of the witness, the sun stood still, not the earth, even though it would have been the earth itself that ceased to rotate. The moon would also have stopped in its orbit around the earth. In effect the entire earth moon system would have been affected without touching the rest of the universe. A time dilation bubble around the earth/moon system would explain everything within the text.

Hypothetical language again.

And while this would sound like science fiction, it is not impossible even within the rules of our universe.

Hypothetically, you mean?

That being said, I personally believe that this was all caused by a meteor as I proposed earlier and what we have here is a garbled version of an eyewitness account to the event which helped the Israelites conquer the promised land. In either position, God intervened in a way only he could accomplish and we can only praise him for his majesty and greatness.

The man who wrote the book of Joshua was not a witness of the fact. Baruch de Spinoza believed that Ezra was the one thousands of years later. Therefore, embelishment was the word.

PS - in regard to Luke being a parable, it is that, there is no denying it, but it is also a parable that as you say teaches us about the spiritual world. The truth of it is no less unsettling, what you plant today, you will reap in the beyond, whether you believe in hell or not is something I'll leave to you.

Usually, within the parable itself is the reason why the parable was forwarded. In the case of the Richman and Lazarus it was to enhance the validity of the Law that Jesus had not come to change or to abolish as his answer to the question was in Mat. 5:17-19.

Ben

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I would think that a god manipulating the laws of the universe would be a prime example of deified magic.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Aerthur C. Clarke was good at his job, but guess what, he was not a fantasy writer, he wrote science fiction. As such, we may not be able to do alot of the things he described now, but they are far from impossible.

secondly, If god is not subject to the laws of sin the why the need for a sacrifice of a physical representation of himself or his son or however you wish to refer to Jesus for us.

Quite simply because of mankind. It is we who are subject to the laws of sin, it is we who need redemption and salvation, not God, What he did, he did for us, not for himself.

To whom was this sacrifice made and in our physical universe for that matter?

For us, it is hard to swallow but nonetheless true.

He had to compensate for sin in our physical universe but is not subject to the physical laws of our universe. I just don't understand it. I may never understand. If it makes sense to you then carry on my friend!

If I died saving my son, would I be thought as stupid and crazy?

No I don't think so, so I wonder why people have such a hard time thinking it strange that God would do something in the same vein?

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Yes, the guy's an atheist. That's not the reason I posted the video. The reason I posted was because of the physics behind what would actually happen if the earth suddenly stopped spinning, for whatever reason. Disregard the atheist view point there for a minute and just take a look at the physics involved of such an occurrence an what would be involved with the rest of the story as well. I thought it would be an interesting addition to the discussion.

I have so much considered the physical factor that I came to the logical conclusion that the phenomenon was not physical but poetic. Therefore, it could never have been literal but metaphorical pointing to the arresting of the kings in the cave of Makkedah which caused the confusion of the armies without a leader as to become an easy target at the hands of the Israelites. Simply commonsense.

Ben

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No, I never argue against hypotheses. "If He wants to..." Yes, but that's not what He did. If God wants, He can do everything but one: The thing you wish He did or should have done.

Hypothetical language again.

Hypothetically, you mean?

The man who wrote the book of Joshua was not a witness of the fact. Baruch de Spinoza believed that Ezra was the one thousands of years later. Therefore, embelishment was the word.

Usually, within the parable itself is the reason why the parable was forwarded. In the case of the Richman and Lazarus it was to enhance the validity of the Law that Jesus had not come to change or to abolish as his answer to the question was in Mat. 5:17-19.

Ben

My dear Ben when it comes to hypotheses, yours are not significantly better than mine, are we now arguing how many angels fit on the head of a pin?

All we can do, (even you) is provide possibilites. None of us were there, none of can go back in time and none of us have evidence of the events one way or another, you say metaphor, I say, time dilation or simply a comet...

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The miracle of the sun stopping in the sky cannot be taken as the sun stopping, as that means the earth stops it rotation and that causes all sorts of secondary effects. Some other approach is needed: how about God stopping the flow of time, which among other things makes the sun appear to stop its motion.

Of course this creates the problem of how the events going on were able to continue, so we have to presume a small local bubble where time went on normally while in the rest of the universe time was stopped.

True that time can stop with inertia since time is an accident of motion, but we are dealing with man and to do so, we are getting into sicence fiction and not poetic reality.

Ben

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We don't understand today but may understand how in the future? is that the gist? we may not understand either. either way it makes no sense to me right here and now. It may make sense to you because you are comfortable inserting your god into the situation and thats fine. im just personally not of that religious persuasion. As far as sin, let's try again. I don't think I'm communicating my issue here effectively. It's not whether or not he sacrificed himself or even his reasons for doing so. I'm questioning the need to do so. If he had to sacrifice Jesus in order to compensate for our sins rather than just forgive then then he indeed is subject to the laws of sin. Sin would be something that even he must compensate for in someway with a physical sacrifice and thus, if sin is real, why would he not be subject to the rest of the laws of the universe? Do you see what I'm getting at? The fact that he needed a sacrifice at all rather than just simply forgiving sin would suggest that he is subject to the laws of the universe, if sin is believed to be real. I'm trying to communicate this more effectively.

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You are talking God here, but not just any God -- you are talking Jehovah. Of course he can make the sun stand still. End of debate.

I do not deny that God can do any and all things but one: The thing you wish He did or should have done.

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Posted (edited)

In what way does it circumvent that? If Jehovah can do anything it wishes, then why the sacrifice if himself/his don, etc... To pay for our sins? To whom would Jehovah be paying such a debt to? Why the need for a flood or to make the sun stop in the sky without dealing with the physical effects of such an occurrence? You're telling me that he must sacrifice, what? himself? A physical representation of himself? to deal with our sins in order to allow us into heaven but he isn't subject to the physical laws of the universe? The entire concept makes no sense. I guess that's why it's called faith.

I make mine all your questions above.

Edited by Ben Masada

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And Ben, that I can understand. I think we understand each other here. My issue is with the need for a physical sacrifice of Jesus' life rather than just just forgive sin. Rather than repeat my issues on that and further muddy the waters I'll just refer to my last post on the issue. I think we both have issues with this although they may not be the same issues.

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Posted (edited)

AND THE SUN STOOD STILL

It is amazing to see how religious Scholars from almost all quarters of religious life struggle so hard to prove that a day is missing in the history of the universe which can be explained only by the "miracle" that the sun stood still so that the Israelites could win a decisive battle at the conquest of Ganaan, so they assert. Vanity of vanities! When will vanity fade? The answer is in the same chapter of Joshua for how and why the "sun stood still."

According to Moses Maimonides in his Book "Guide for the Perplexed" most references to the sun, moon and stars, falling or standing, moving or standing still, are references to the powers that be. When Joshua entered the Land of Canaan with a power unmatched by any other power in the world of then, five Canaanite kings got into a strong coalition composed by the city states of Jerusalem, Hebron, Jarmuth, Lachish and Eglon in order to be able to stop Joshua. That's when the epic myth that the sun stood still came about and here is how, according to Joshua 10:13-27.

As the Israelites were faring better in the battle and pursuing the enemies, the above coalition of kings got into the cave of Makkedah and stood still in the hope to keep the secret of their hiding place. Somehow, Joshua was told that they were hiding in that cave and he ordered that a stone wall be built at the entrance to the cave, set some soldiers to watch outside and ordered the Israelites to keep on fighting and pursuing the enemy armies while the kings stood still and until the battle was over. It was a long day so-to-speak as the powers that be stood still until Joshua had achieved complete victory. Then he ordered the cave to be open and the kings to be brought out and over to be punished with death.

That's when the sun stood still until the war was over. That's all. No mystery about a natural miracle. Just a strategy of Joshua to make sure the enemy kings (sun and moon) stook still until the war was over.

Ben

I posted this months ago! Nobody even considered it. No one had any explanation for "a missing day during the historic record." Glad to see you brought it back Ben. :tu:

Always thought references like this were interesting:

Discussion of the Missing Day in Earth's History(The Day the Sun Stood Still)

It is reported by historians that records of the Chinese during the reign of Emperor Yeo, who lived at the same time as Joshua, report "a long day." Also, Heroditus, a Greek historian, wrote that an account of "a long day" appears in records of Egyptian priests. Others cite records of Mexicans of the sun standing still for an entire day in a year denoted as "Seven Rabits," which is the same year in which Joshua defeated the Philistines and conquered Palestine. ("Bible-Science Newsletter," DAILY READING MAGAZINE - Supplement, Vol. VIII - No. 5, May 1978, Caldwell, Idaho.) Additionally, the historical lore of the Aztecs, Peruvians, and Babylonians speak of a "day of twice natural length."

In 1970, a story appeared in "The Evening World," a newpaper in Spencer, Indiana, about a consultant to the space program named Harold Hill (deceased) citing that he was told a computer program had found a "missing day." Though the computer program story could never be validated, interesting speculations and studies ensued about what astronomical mechanism might result in the "Earth standing still" for 24 hours.

One person suggested a large asteroid, perhaps 480 miles in diameter, may have struck Earth's mantle slowing Earth's rotation to a standstill by causing the hard mantle and molten core to separate for 24 hours as a bicycle's speed brake might slowly bring the wheels to a halt with the inter spokes continuing to rotate. After 24 hours, the friction between the stationary mantle and rotating core would accelerate the mantle to rotate once more.

The mechanism and collision would have to be somewhat viscous so that both the deceleration and acceleration was so gradual as to go unnoticed by Earth's inhabitants. The theory cites Professor Totten as writing that Newton described a way Earth's rotation could abruptly be slowed without its inhabitants noticing the slowing. A close encounter with the asteroid Hermes (500,000 miles) by Earth in 1937 is given as an example of the likelihood that such a collision might have occurred in Joshua's time.

The existance of a depressed (sink ) region of great size between Hawaii and the Philippines featuring long fracture lines at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean which extend outward to the continents is offered as the remains of the asteroid causing the loss of a day in the Earth's history. ("How To Live Like a King's Kid," Harold Hill with Irene Harrell, Bridge Publishing, Inc., South Plainfield, New Jersey, 1974, p. 74.)

Edited by WoIverine

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