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redhen

Corporal punishment - For or against?

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Actually, I was talking about babies. If you're still having to tell a two, three or four-year-old not to tug on the TV 's power cord because they might bring the TV down on their head, then either you and/or your child have a serious problem. The situation with the power cord was a real event. The first day we put my son in a walker he raced over to the power cord and tried to yank it. I moved him away from the TV, and tried to put the cord away from him, but within minutes he was back there again trying to get to the cord, so then the hand smacks began. We only went through a few cycles of him dashing for the cord, me grabbing the walker before he got there, and tapping him on the top of his hand before he decided he was no longer interested in that. As my son learned to understand spoken language. the need for physical communication waned. But because we started early in his development with him, we never dealt with the issues I see other parents' dealing with; having 9 or 10 year-olds running around taunting them or ignoring them in the middle of malls or at parties.

Im talking about the ones you mention near the end of your post,bootcamp for a few months may teach them a few things.

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Im talking about the ones you mention near the end of your post,bootcamp for a few months may teach them a few things.

Got it.

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Indeed kids are influenced by their peers, and there are serious things to consider and monitor for. I have kids-- I live in a metropolis (California) my parenting encompasses the reality that my kids will and have faced things that they needed to be prepared for. I did not hit them to do this. I reasoned with them and started this early, I am a stay at home mom, I know the importance of having rules and standards and I take my role seriously.

I just have never had to hit my kids to teach them anything, their mistakes are not the kind that ruin their lives. I know that the mere fact that I play close attention matters a lot and I stay informed myself. I am suggesting there are alternatives to hitting kids and telling you based in experience one can have great kids and not beat them. I am living it.

We have another thread about this same subject on another topic sherapy,you just mentioned the number 1 thing i have stated as the problem in another topic.Traditional family values are mostly gone now days,you sound like a attentive caring parent most now days are not they want the rest of the world to babysit there children for them.As said i believe it to be a situational problem.

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Anyone who's actually read "Starship Troopers" (one of my favorite books) or any of Heinlein's work knows if anything Heinlein's views were the complete antithesis of fascism; the guy was so libertarian he would probably scare most of today's libertarians.

I think leftists have done an amazing job of equating physical abuse with corporal punishment and American/Western European society is much the poorer for having bought into this.

As an officer in the military--someone who had been required to go through a great deal of training and preparation--I have a very clear understanding that it is almost impossible to have a civilian understand how to function as a soldier. To require a civilian to act as a soldier would most likely result in his injury, and potentially his death and/or the death of others; and would at least result in their (and my) frustration. It would be incredibly unfair to simply turn a civilian lose in a military environment and tell him he is now a soldier The tasks, procedures, processes, and even the terminology one learns basic trainee learns are essential.

As a parent, I realized my child was in the same spot as a civilian is in before undergoing basic training. He did not have the capability of understanding anything. Language, spoken or written was absolutely meaningless to him. I could go hoarse talking to him and he would not understand a single thing. But it was my duty to insure he learned everything necessary for his survival and eventually his success while insuring he did not get himself maimed or killed due to his ignorance. He did not understand language, but his body came pre-wired to avoid pain and discomfort, so I had to deal with him from that standpoint while I trained him to understand language. He might not understand, "Please do not yank on the TV's power cord because you may pull the TV off it's pedestal and on your head," but he understood that every time he pulled on the cord I would smack his hand and that hurt and he did not want his hand to hurt, so he should not pull the cord. I seriously doubt a seven-month-old grasps that a "timeout" is supposed to be discipline.

You cannot treat the world as an army boot camp.

Yes most civilians would make poor soliders but guess what? That works for anyone doing anything that requires training! A person off the street wouldn't make a good surgeon or lawyer or firefighter. These jobs require certain mindsets, certain skill sets and, yes, a great degree of training. Also not everyone is cut out to be x, y, z. Some peole would break down in army training because it would be too much for them. Other ones simply wouldn't be able to do it or wouldn't be able to handle combat.

Children do require 'basic training' in a sense. They come into this world clueless and have to be taught things because they know nothing.

When I have a kid, I'm not hitting my kid. Such a thing seems unthinkable to me. You can teach a child discipline without violence.

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Posted (edited)

The way the word violence keeps getting thrown around in this conversation is amazing,i got whipped when i was a kid.It was never violence,i just learned a lesson end of story.Has anyone here ever been in a fight or actually seen violence?I feel like im having a conversation with people who grew up with leave it to beaver as the setting for their neighborhoods.

Oh and guess what i have a clean criminal record,no mental issues,have a good job,and am more respectful than most.So much for the "causes all kinds of problems issue" Not trying to be a ******* but people need to toughen up some

Edited by CrimsonKing

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You cannot treat the world as an army boot camp.

Yes most civilians would make poor soliders but guess what? That works for anyone doing anything that requires training! A person off the street wouldn't make a good surgeon or lawyer or firefighter. These jobs require certain mindsets, certain skill sets and, yes, a great degree of training. Also not everyone is cut out to be x, y, z. Some peole would break down in army training because it would be too much for them. Other ones simply wouldn't be able to do it or wouldn't be able to handle combat.

Children do require 'basic training' in a sense. They come into this world clueless and have to be taught things because they know nothing.

When I have a kid, I'm not hitting my kid. Such a thing seems unthinkable to me. You can teach a child discipline without violence.

There is a HUGE difference between spanking a child and violent abuse. If you can't get your head wrapped around that, I don't know what I can say to you.
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There is a HUGE difference between spanking a child and violent abuse. If you can't get your head wrapped around that, I don't know what I can say to you.

It's like I said before, it is very easy for someone to go too far and excuse it as 'disipline' or 'punishment'.And o course, in a climate where corporal punishment is a-ok it makes it hader for victims of abuse to be dealt with appropriately because the parent could just say they were 'displining' them and then it becomes alright.

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We have another thread about this same subject on another topic sherapy,you just mentioned the number 1 thing i have stated as the problem in another topic.Traditional family values are mostly gone now days,you sound like a attentive caring parent most now days are not they want the rest of the world to babysit there children for them.As said i believe it to be a situational problem.

I can see your point,

I think in some cases parents cut out to early, namely the teens when their kids need them the most because the issues they face if handled poorly can lead to horrible problems for the kid, family and society.

I am definitely an advocate for quality parenting, I just do not think/suggest hitting them more is the solution or not hitting them enough is the core issue.

I have good kids the reason I have good kids is I parent, I do my job.I also keep myself on top of the latest in child development/psychology and I understand the maturing child from many perspectives including theirs, I take the time to really know my kids and their short comings..

So I agree with you, it is 99.9 percent the quality of the parenting.

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It's like I said before, it is very easy for someone to go too far and excuse it as 'disipline' or 'punishment'.And o course, in a climate where corporal punishment is a-ok it makes it hader for victims of abuse to be dealt with appropriately because the parent could just say they were 'displining' them and then it becomes alright.

My wife and I spanked both our kids and never went too far because we were not doing it out of anger or frustration, we were doing it because we love our children and needed to be sure they would quickly and surely learn so they would avoid harm and or death.

Physical abuse is not the same as corporal discipline, no matter how much you may say it is.

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My wife and I spanked both our kids and never went too far because we were not doing it out of anger or frustration, we were doing it because we love our children and needed to be sure they would quickly and surely learn so they would avoid harm and or death.

Physical abuse is not the same as corporal discipline, no matter how much you may say it is.

I didn't equate corporal punishment to abuse necessarilly. However I think it's certainly a grey area at best. You might not go 'too far' but you can't say the same about every parent and, I'm sorry, but that's a risk I'm not comfortable with.

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I didn't equate corporal punishment to abuse necessarilly. However I think it's certainly a grey area at best. You might not go 'too far' but you can't say the same about every parent and, I'm sorry, but that's a risk I'm not comfortable with.

So, then you must also be uncomfortable with any car that can be driven faster than 5 mph because although most people will stop if a person walks out in front of their car, there are people who may not. You must be uncomfortable with kitchen knives because although most people will probably not use them to stab someone to death, there are some people who might.
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Physical abuse is not the same as corporal discipline, no matter how much you may say it is.

Yes, I've tried to explain this. My new avatar is the Jain symbol. I believe the Sanskrit means "non-violence is the paramount teaching" (ahimsa paramo dharma). I take that as the ideal to strive towards.It does not mean you can abuse and walk all over Jains. I think what's missing in the use of the word violence in this thread is the qualifier unnecessary. I probably take this to extremes, according to many UM'ers. I believe that eating meat (in a modern agricultural society) is unnecessary, and thus killing animals to consume them is by definition, cruel. I just mention this to balance out my previous statement about prior military experience. I'm not some kind of sadist.

That said, smacking a child on the hand to modify his behavior, for his own safety, is sometimes necessary.

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Posted (edited)

So, then you must also be uncomfortable with any car that can be driven faster than 5 mph because although most people will stop if a person walks out in front of their car, there are people who may not. You must be uncomfortable with kitchen knives because although most people will probably not use them to stab someone to death, there are some people who might.

Ah yes, because those things are in any way comparable.

Look I'm against people harming children for anything other than medical reasons. You amy see corporal punishment as a good thing, but you know what? It takes disipline not to take it too far, not to turn it into abuse. You may have that discipline because of your army training but you know what? Not everyone posessses that. Some people will go too far, or beat their their kids for the slightest infraction.

Kids are vulnerable so excuse me for not wanting them hurt. I must be a terrible human being to not want that musn't I?

If you're going to promote corporate punishment then a: how do you ensure people don't go too far and b: how do you ensure abuse isn't misinterpreted as 'disipline'?

Edited by shadowhive

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My wife and I spanked both our kids and never went too far because we were not doing it out of anger or frustration, we were doing it because we love our children and needed to be sure they would quickly and surely learn so they would avoid harm and or death.

Physical abuse is not the same as corporal discipline, no matter how much you may say it is.

IMO, hitting kids is not the best way to educate/teach our children, I think when we say I am hitting you because I love you will teach a child that hitting is an acceptable way to deal with conflict. It is not (in the real world) and we do not hit each other to deal with issues.

We ourselves as the parent must model civility and personal discipline, any kind of hitting on a defenseless child would be a huge issue for me.and I would call it abuse IMO. As the parent we are supposed to protect them even when it is from ourselves.

I do not see a difference between corporal punishment and abuse and I think if we hit we have gone to far. I do not think you are a monster though, I do recall that in your day this was considered good parenting. It is not anymore.

For me, as a mother I would never be okay with anyone hitting my child, least of all the father or mother.

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Yes, I've tried to explain this. My new avatar is the Jain symbol. I believe the Sanskrit means "non-violence is the paramount teaching" (ahimsa paramo dharma). I take that as the ideal to strive towards.It does not mean you can abuse and walk all over Jains. I think what's missing in the use of the word violence in this thread is the qualifier unnecessary. I probably take this to extremes, according to many UM'ers. I believe that eating meat (in a modern agricultural society) is unnecessary, and thus killing animals to consume them is by definition, cruel. I just mention this to balance out my previous statement about prior military experience. I'm not some kind of sadist.

That said, smacking a child on the hand to modify his behavior, for his own safety, is sometimes necessary.

How?

IMO, hitting kids is not the best way to educate/teach our children, I think when we say I am hitting you because I love you will teach a child that hitting is an acceptable way to deal with conflict. It is not (in the real world) and we do not hit each other to deal with issues.

We ourselves as the parent must model civility and personal discipline, any kind of hitting on a defenseless child would be a huge issue for me.and I would call it abuse IMO. As the parent we are supposed to protect them even when it is from ourselves.

I do not see a difference between corporal punishment and abuse and I think if we hit we have gone to far. I do not think you are a monster though, I do recall that in your day this was considered good parenting. It is not anymore.

For me, as a mother I would never be okay with anyone hitting my child, least of all the father or mother. there are many ways to modify unwanted behavior that do not involve hitting.

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Please, explain to us, Sheri, how to reason with a toddler, that has no command of the English language, that what they are doing could kill or severely injure them.

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Ah yes, because those things are in any way comparable.

Look I'm against people harming children for anything other than medical reasons. You amy see corporal punishment as a good thing, but you know what? It takes disipline not to take it too far, not to turn it into abuse. You may have that discipline because of your army training but you know what? Not everyone posessses that. Some people will go too far, or beat their their kids for the slightest infraction.

Kids are vulnerable so excuse me for not wanting them hurt. I must be a terrible human being to not want that musn't I?

If you're going to promote corporate punishment then a: how do you ensure people don't go too far and b: how do you ensure abuse isn't misinterpreted as 'disipline'?

Ahh, but they are quite similar. You see, you should not regulate ANYTHING simply because someone might not be responsible enough, because that is the same as punishing the innocent. You punish the criminals, not all of society.
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Posted (edited)

I'm very much against corporal punishment and the people who have been here long enough would probably know my views on this already. There are always these examples of power cords and things but I think you just have to change your environment inorder to allow for a safe area for the toddler. Anotherwords instead of smacking your toddler for grabbing a knife, make sure that knives are placed in a spot where the toddler cannot get them. Same for poisons.. most know to put these away from toddlers so to smack a toddler for finding something dangerous as a way to learn is somewhat ironic. Would you punish your toddler for finding the poison or should you punish yourself for allowing them to in the first place?

So thats pretty much what I think in regards to dangerous situations. You need to keep things out of reach until they are old enough to explain the dangers to.

I've also said over the years that we as adults dont hit each other as punishment because its classed as assault. So I dont understand why anyone would teach their child that when someone does something wrong we hit them. When they get older they are supposed to not use violence and to communicate to solve problems(especially at school), so teaching kids by hitting them is a strange way to start teaching them to not use violence.

Anyway I've never had to smack my son ever and he is turning 12 this year. I've not even had a time where I wouldve thought to. And thats absolute truth. I havent even needed to use time out or anything. So I dont have a punishment set up. I guess once in a blue moon I might threaten no computer games if he forgets to do something in regards to homework but I cant remember any times where I've had follow up on it. He likes his games so he remembers to bring homework home and things like this so he can continue doing the things he enjoys. And I think I've only threatened no games maybe once or twice.

I should also add that since he was born I've been a full time father for him. So my ex wife went back to work and I stayed home to look after him. My wife left when he was only two and I've looked after him during the week days ever since(he goes to his mums on the weekends). So I'm a single father and I think of raising my son as my full time job and I always have. He's also doing very well at school and goes to a gifted school.So he is thriving and punishment is something I've never really had to use.

So I basically think if you have to punish a kid to the extent where you have to hit them, then you're doing something wrong in the frist place.

Edited by Kazahel
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I think we all agree that abusing a child is wrong. We just don't necessarily all agree that spankings qualify as abuse. For those who have referred to the current view of the field of psychology, they also agree 100% with the general consensus that abuse of a child is wrong. However, contrary to several comments here, the current psychological consensus appears to be split virtually 50/50 in the question of whether spanking is helpful or harmful. For every psychologist that says it teaches that violence is an acceptable way to solve conflict, you'll find another psychologist who disagrees and sees no problem with spankings - provided they do not cross the line from punishment to abuse.

That said, I'm confused as to whether this thread was originally aimed at corporal punishment in the household with children, or whether it was referring to our Justice System/s (eg, ten lashes for break-and-enters - that's just a random example).

~ Regards, PA

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It's funny all this talk of training good soldiers. Does anyone realize that the military does not practice corporal punishment?

Even this attitude of peoples undisciplined "brats" running around seeths with intolerance and aggression. I have given solid examples of cultures that are highly disciplined yet do not use pain as a deterrent, and who behave just fine. People have this illusion that kids that are spanked are somehow more disciplined and controlled. BS. I could not find anything to support that, and plenty of kids do just fine without it. In my community probably a very few hit their kids, and by and large they are all well behaved aside from the normal age appropriate energy, and I know probably more kids in my community than anyone else

Does any one who is for it actually care about actual research and psychological studies on children and the effects it has on them and their decisions and choices. What is your basis for claiming that it is more effective than non violent methods? I hope it's not your observing of these "brats" running all over the place. Because we eat out at least once a week, and I don't see them. My kids are certainly not allowed to behave this way and I don't hit them.

No matter which way you spin it, causing pain to another person to get them to comply is violent. It might be mildly violent, but studies have shown that defiant children build up tolerances to physical punishment forcing the parent to upgrade their abuse to achieve the desired results.

The majority of doctors, phsycologists, and actual scientists pretty much agree on the issue. Are you going to let your kid scarff down candy? Are you going to feed them cup o noodles, burgers, and pizza everyday? Why not? Because you know it's unhealthy because we now have actual data that tells us this. But you will still strike your kid because it was done to you, and you consider yourself well adjusted. I have seen the responses of people on this thread advocating punishing kids with pain... ;) im not buying it.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/family/2008/09/spare_the_rod.html

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110726111109.htm

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=to-spank-or-not-to-spank

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/story/2012-06-28/spanking-mental-problems/55964610/1

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Posted (edited)

Please, explain to us, Sheri, how to reason with a toddler, that has no command of the English language, that what they are doing could kill or severely injure them.

Michelle, you underestimate those little buggers. Sorry I spelled Squirrel wrong. I move to fast to catch things like that, and im multi tasking a brilliant marketing plan at the moment :) Yes... that is my little #3 and me behind the squirrel. I made in 5 mins just for this thread and this erronious assumption that toddlers dont understand you.

Edited by Seeker79

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Anything that does harm is wrong, and that includes anything that causes unhappiness. Therefore even scolding a child is wrong.

Unfortunately failure to scold a child is also wrong if it leads to things like the child being injured or growing up spoiled and thinking the world owes it a living.

It seems we cannot live without doing wrong. We must each make our way through life, either advancing or regressing, and much of this is base on the amount of harm we do as compared to the amount of good we do, and it is foolish to think that it is possible to avoid doing harm sometimes. Just eating a carrot harms that carrot.

We will perform better if we keep mindful of these principles and are always mindful of what we are doing or may be doing to the child when it is necessary to do discipline.

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LMFAO You dont know a damn thing about my attitude,i was never a bully back in school i actually usually took up for the weaker kids.And teaching your child right from wrong and them knowing what consequences are is not bullying you need to put down the peace pipe there man and be real.If you think standing up for yourself makes one a bully then well you need to go find a hippie commune to live in and keep your whole family far away from any big cities for life.

Your attitude is clear in your posts I dont need to know anything about you. "hippie peace pipe" now it's me that's laughing, and you makeing assumptions about me. I agreed with you about sticking up for yourself there genius. You are so far off the mark about me and how prepared my children are, I can't stop chuckling. I just happen to have a few things that you may not.... probably... experience, EDUCATION, age, and actual critical thought. I'm probably the closest thing to an expert on this subject that you will ever meet, and I AM an expert in part of the of he discussion, it's what I do for a living. How funny is that?

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Posted (edited)

I think we all agree that abusing a child is wrong. We just don't necessarily all agree that spankings qualify as abuse. For those who have referred to the current view of the field of psychology, they also agree 100% with the general consensus that abuse of a child is wrong. However, contrary to several comments here, the current psychological consensus appears to be split virtually 50/50 in the question of whether spanking is helpful or harmful. For every psychologist that says it teaches that violence is an acceptable way to solve conflict, you'll find another psychologist who disagrees and sees no problem with spankings - provided they do not cross the line from punishment to abuse.

That said, I'm confused as to whether this thread was originally aimed at corporal punishment in the household with children, or whether it was referring to our Justice System/s (eg, ten lashes for break-and-enters - that's just a random example).

~ Regards, PA

It's not 50/50 PA. Mabey 85/15. Those in the 15 are only on the fence because in the very mild cases, we are talking about the margins. it is to difficult to tell to make any kind of scientific judgment. And the research shows that pain does indeed create an Imeadate response, so does a hot stove, but the overall effectiveness is ambiguouse. I'm guessing ( just a guess) that some of the 15 carry some of the biases that are seen here. Pick up any modern text book on children, early childhood education, child psychology, family life etc etc etc. ask any pediatrician.

Edited by Seeker79

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Your attitude is clear in your posts I dont need to know anything about you. "hippie peace pipe" now it's me that's laughing, and you makeing assumptions about me. I agreed with you about sticking up for yourself there genius. You are so far off the mark about me and how prepared my children are, I can't stop chuckling. I just happen to have a few things that you may not.... probably... experience, EDUCATION, age, and actual critical thought. I'm probably the closest thing to an expert on this subject that you will ever meet, and I AM an expert in part of the of he discussion, it's what I do for a living. How funny is that?

You were the first one making assumptions not me.Your post show you are nothing but a know it all.Sorry but going to college does not make you an expert on every human alive there Einstein!Education got it,experience got,You maybe correct on age though as you seem to have been deluded for many years now.Well it is hillarious that you can read a grown mans attitude through a computer screen after only talking to them in 1 topic,your professor must be very proud.What is even funnier is it took you all day to come up with that response,you must be what some refer to as a educated idiot.

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