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Scudbuster

Edgar Mitchell says a lot.......

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:unsure2:

Old saying ;) An eyetooth is a canine.

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Posted (edited)

Wouldn't matter if he could.... you would debunk it and say it was false anyhow.

Like using his own words you mean. Funny how the ETH'ers are over every facet of the made up stuff, but know little of Dr Mitchell's actual real world accomplishments or his actual statements. You know, I do not think that is a good thing.

Absolute codswallop. Edgar comes from an Institution the critical thinkers trust but ETH'ers do not. Yes NASA has made mistakes, Apollo 1, Challenger, Columbia, and these things may well happen again. These men go into this knowing that risk, and they go further to accomplish things we can only dream about.

But with the believers pushing Dr Mitchell's words to be recognised for something they are not, he may not be remembered for 14, or for being the 6th man on the moon. 9 hours on the Lunar surface, and he may only be remembered for loony claims that other created out of his words. If you read the Times Interview from 1998, Dr Mitchell states that he is 90% sure that some UFO's are visitors from other planets. Not 100%, like someone "in the know" would be.

The ETH'ers I fear are likely to overshadow Dr Mitchell's real accomplishments and have him remembered as a fringe kook. I honestly think that is something to be heartily ashamed of. Coops did it to himself, Dr Mitchell has been sought out and hounded, and we know why, so papers can say a spaceman believes in spaceships. Sells papers.

Edited by psyche101
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Posted (edited)

What security Oaths? Did you just make some up? And if he is bound by one, why does he not say, "I cannot say, I am bound by oath"? That's not a breach. But if Edgar had some insight, it would be a good way of doing what he advocates.

Actually....it could be seen as a breach to say that...IMO.

What trouble? How many times has he said people seek him out? The papers are lapping up having another Astronaut besides Cooper to give them juicy stories. They encourage and misinterpret most of what Edgar has to say, which is why he had that interview with Lisa Bonnice - to clear the air. Even in that interview, Dr Mitchell himself stated that he had no idea how things had managed to get so out of proportion.

All the interviews he has done...all the conferences he has spoken at...I'd say he was and is more than happy to share what he has to say.

You try and make out that he was pushed into the limelight on these issues....kicking and screaming,

but it is obvious that he wanted to tell the public these things...

The only naysayers are those who claim more than he has to tell. They refuse to accept Dr Mitchell at his own words, those being:

I, nor any crew I was on (I was on three Apollo crews), received any briefing before or after flights on UFO events, saw anything in space suggesting UFOs or structures on the moon, etc. We did it just like we said in official reports. My only claim to knowledge of these events is from the individuals, mostly of yesteryear, who were in government, intelligence, or military; were there, saw what they saw, and now believe it should be made public. But I claim no first hand knowledge, nor have any. Pass it on to the rest of the net, if you will.

--Edgar Mitchell

Edgar Mitchell has said more than enough to satisfy...(under the circumstances)..regardless of how you try and downplay it......

Because of his historic position of being one of the few men who walked on the Moon, that's all the real naysayers can do...

downplay the message he is relaying to the public...

.

Edited by bee

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I think Mitchell is a very intelligent and innovative man. And he believes what he says, and is not playing games with 'secret information' he possesses but is somehow forbidden to reveal.

When he makes assertions that can be checked -- such as his claims for a successful private ESP experiment during a moon flight -- I actually READ the paper and assess whether his methodology supports his conclusions.

Have you ever read Mitchell's Apollo-14 ESP experiment paper? Or do you just accept second-hand hypes of it?

Which of us do you suppose has a more realistic appreciation of Mitchell's credibility in his interpretive claims? The guy who checked, or the guy who never bothered to?

I dont think I have read it but do recall reading various extracts from it. I do understand your point.

So let me ask you why are we talking 'credibility' as opposed to 'ability'?

And also ask does only reading this paper allow one to form an accurate picture of a persons 'credibility' and/or 'methodology' and /or interpretation of data?

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Hi Q

You did not ask me, but I know you will accomodate me :D

I do not put value in his belief, no, he also believes in ESP and remote viewing, and he is rather religious, I do not subscribe to any one of those. But I would give my eyeteeth to swap places with him on Apollo.

Cheers.

always :yes:

So using that logic may I ask if you would find Zosers beliefs more 'credible' than Mitchells on the ETH simply based on the fact that Zoser also doesnt subscribe to any of the mentioned above areas?

(apologies for using you in this example Zoser, but I am using Psyches perception of you to show my point.....it is not a perception I personally agree with but thats neither here nor there....neither is whether you really belive in religion esp etc...at least not for the hypothetical posed)

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Edgar Mitchell has said more than enough to satisfy...(under the circumstances)..regardless of how you try and downplay it......

Because of his historic position of being one of the few men who walked on the Moon, that's all the real naysayers can do...

downplay the message he is relaying to the public...

What message would that be, that everyone is entitled to their own opinions and belief? Because that is all he is "relaying to the public", moon walker or not.

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What message would that be, that everyone is entitled to their own opinions and belief? Because that is all he is "relaying to the public", moon walker or not.

hmmm I wonder why Mitchell doesnt spout about religion in the same way?

I assume you would put his belief in God and belief in the ETH as the same, yes?

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What message would that be, that everyone is entitled to their own opinions and belief? Because that is all he is "relaying to the public", moon walker or not.

No.....(although everyone IS entitled to their own opinions and beliefs)

This 'message'....

'I happen to have been privileged enough to be in on the fact that we've been visited on this planet and the UFO phenomena is real,' Dr Mitchell said.

'It's been well covered up by all our governments for the last 60 years or so, but slowly it's leaked out and some of us have been privileged to have been briefed on some of it.

'I've been in military and intelligence circles, who know that beneath the surface of what has been public knowledge, yes - we have been visited.

and the rest of it....

http://www.dailymail...d-60-years.html

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Such a wonderful world we all live upon,Opinions are like finger prints,No two are the same,maybe no One is the same,albeit there could be a little cloneing going on underground in New Mexico ! LOL! Bee is such a sweetie ans her opinion is as valid ,as Mitchell`s even if she cant remember walking on the moon witl all of us last year !

The best thing about people is at some time in there lifes we all come to understand that were all players in just our own reality.

And we all have wonderous realitys to explore !

But then AGAIN thats my reality ! justDONTEATUS :tu::alien::no: PLEASE !

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Such a wonderful world we all live upon,Opinions are like finger prints,No two are the same,maybe no One is the same,albeit there could be a little cloneing going on underground in New Mexico ! LOL! Bee is such a sweetie ans her opinion is as valid ,as Mitchell`s even if she cant remember walking on the moon witl all of us last year !

The best thing about people is at some time in there lifes we all come to understand that were all players in just our own reality.

And we all have wonderous realitys to explore !

But then AGAIN thats my reality ! justDONTEATUS :tu::alien::no: PLEASE !

:yes::clap:

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In assessing how credible any one person's opinion is on subject-X, that cannot be independently corroborated, it can be helpful to see if their opinion on subject-Y, can be independently checked. With Mitchell, I found that his views on Uri Geller, for example, helped determine his standards of evidence for paranormal topics, and his claims for his Apollo-14 ESP experiment success, show his creative flexibility in manipulating rules of evidence to appear to support a pre-desired outcome.

Do such measures appear reasonable and appropriate? Or is everybody's 'opinion' equally valid, or invalid?

How about moonwalker Jim Irwin's conviction that Noah's Ark is real, and can be found on Mount Ararat? Does he, with exactly the same credibility credentials as Mitchell, get a 'pass' at verification, and an automatic 'must-be-believed'?
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In assessing how credible any one person's opinion is on subject-X, that cannot be independently corroborated, it can be helpful to see if their opinion on subject-Y, can be independently checked. With Mitchell, I found that his views on Uri Geller, for example, helped determine his standards of evidence for paranormal topics, and his claims for his Apollo-14 ESP experiment success, show his creative flexibility in manipulating rules of evidence to appear to support a pre-desired outcome.

Do such measures appear reasonable and appropriate? Or is everybody's 'opinion' equally valid, or invalid?

How about moonwalker Jim Irwin's conviction that Noah's Ark is real, and can be found on Mount Ararat? Does he, with exactly the same credibility credentials as Mitchell, get a 'pass' at verification, and an automatic 'must-be-believed'?

I do believe everyones opinion is equally valid.

and I think no person should be automatically believed, at the same time someone lying once doesnt mean they are automatically lying about the next 'thing'.

lets talk specifics Jim, what in the papers do you consider 'holes' or what exactly makes you reach said conclusions?

I may run out of time and will respond monday.)

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Doesn't Edgar Mitchell's opinion really depend on what the people he interviewed claimed?

It's one thing if a retired ex-military guy wants to get something off his chest and says, 'Hey Edgar, you know, I saw a UFO once while I was flying over xxxx', and another thing entirely if they same guy said, 'Hey Edgar, you know we met with aliens out at the xxx base. They landed, got out and chatted with us for four hours before leaving...'

What exactly has he been told?

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In assessing how credible any one person's opinion is on subject-X, that cannot be independently corroborated, it can be helpful to see if their opinion on subject-Y, can be independently checked. With Mitchell, I found that his views on Uri Geller, for example, helped determine his standards of evidence for paranormal topics, and his claims for his Apollo-14 ESP experiment success, show his creative flexibility in manipulating rules of evidence to appear to support a pre-desired outcome.

Do such measures appear reasonable and appropriate? Or is everybody's 'opinion' equally valid, or invalid?

How about moonwalker Jim Irwin's conviction that Noah's Ark is real, and can be found on Mount Ararat? Does he, with exactly the same credibility credentials as Mitchell, get a 'pass' at verification, and an automatic 'must-be-believed'?

Those are very good point, and they speak volumes (to me) about the mindset of men like these.

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Posted (edited)

The paper was published in June 1971 in the 'Journal of Parapsychology". I have a hard copy. I have asked permission from Dr. Mitchell to post a pdf of it on my website and he has not agreed.

The going-in flaw in my view is that the 'sendings' by him on Apollo-14, and the 'hearings' of volunteer psychics on earth, were not simultaneous, as had originally been planned. Due to a delay in the launch, and then due to personal scheduling problems of the several psychics, the 'hearings' were of different number, and different date/times, then the 'sendings'.

Mitchell tried various ways to pair them up, 'hearing' to 'sending'. First was to place them with the sendings closest in time afterwards. That resulted in essentially chance 'hits'. No good. Several other ad hoc assignments gave similar random chance results.

Next was to place each psychics 'hearings' sequentially with each of Mitchell's sendings. The resulting scored hits were significantly WRONGER than mere chance, a phenomenon that Mitchell said was called 'psi-missing', and it was proof that ESP worked.

This resulted in a number of the 'hearings' actually preceding the sendings that Mitchell matched them to, which Mitchell concluded was proof of precognition. It also placed several of the different psychic' 'hearings', that were near-simo in Earth time, with DIFFERENT sendings by Mitchell, which suggested to Mitchell that it showed some sort of preternatural intelligence 'steering' the signals he sent, to different receivers at different times and places.

Since Mitchell had earlier run a few Earth-only sending/hearing sessions, but never recorded results to serve as a control, and never repeated the experiment after his return, and had scored the 'hits' himself [instead of double-blind scoring by independent researchers], I concluded that the experiment -- innovative and pioneering as it was -- was scientifically meaningless.

Mitchell presents it as a successful demonstration of psi. I interpret it as a successful demonstration of experimenter wish-fulfillment.

In either case, the actual raw results (HOWEVER you choose to interpret their meaning) probably look a LOT different to you guys than the way it has been reported in the media for forty years, doesn't it?

Any mystery about why the raw results are not allowed on the Internet?

The following is a direct transcription of his words during a movie, "Mysteries of the Mind", which was produced in 1978 by Irving and Elda Hartley of "American National Enterprises" (and which was seen by at least a thousand times as many people than those who ever saw the dry, scientific report). Mitchell was the host and general narrator.

After the opening teaser scenes, the introductory narrator goes on to say: "Interest in psychic phenomenon extends beyond the general public to exceptional individuals like our commentator, astronaut Edgar Mitchell."

Mitchell's voice then comes on, with scenes of the Apollo-14 moon mission providing dramatic visual support. Intoned the astronaut:

"On February 5, 1971, I became the sixth man to set foot on the Moon. That's me bouncing up to Al Shepard to help him set up the flag. After the flag-raising and picture taking, we set up several experiments to help NASA gather data about the Moon and outer space. But during my rest periods I did a few experiments of my own in the exploration of inner space. At certain predetermined times on the trip to and from the Moon I tried to transmit symbols, such as a star or a circle, to four people back on Earth by means of telepathy. The odds against the score we obtained were three thousand to one. When I later computed the relative success of my attempts to send thoughts back to Earth from outer space, it helped confirm for me that there are dimensions of the mind that we know little about."

Also, more details at

Issue 5 Evil Winter 2001/02

Private Lunar ESP: An Interview with Edgar Mitchell

Fia Backström and Edgar Mitchell

http://cabinetmagazine.org/issues/5/esp.php

Fia Backström is an artist based in New York.

excerpt:

How were you able to coordinate with the people on earth?

We didn't. We tried to coordinate but we were off. That didn't seem to make any difference. We took off forty minutes late but I didn't try for an exact time anyway, just in the evening. We now understand why that should work, because the sequence is important but having the precise time is not.

JimO: Note that he does not explain the arbitrary and internally inconsistent assignment of hearing sessions to sending sessions, and the role that his own judgment AFTEr the experiment in making those choices.

Edited by JimOberg
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So using that logic may I ask if you would find Zosers beliefs more 'credible' than Mitchells on the ETH simply based on the fact that Zoser also doesnt subscribe to any of the mentioned above areas?

I wouldn't bet on it .... :innocent:

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Mankind is presumably the most dominant, and intelligent, (Relatively speaking) species on the planet. As such we both know and understand we have only been here in our present state for about 4 million years. The planet is some 4.5 BILLION years old. So this leaves an almost unimaginable gap for almost unimaginable things to have occurred. So why, pre-tell-me, does mankind think it has the sum total knowledge and have covered the all-encompassing measure of what constitutes physical life and our physical laws? In other words, there are still aspects to the laws of physics that exist and that may be employed by older civilizations, that mankind has yet to discover. So, as a race that is really so young they amount to kindergarteners, how can there be such arrogance as to make such statements as an event being impossible. The truth of what is happening here is maintaining a comfort zone. I have found that above all, humans want to be comfortable. And in that comfort not be disturbed. So the longer this stage of comfort exists, the harder it is for people to relinquish said comfort. This was evident in the 1950's in the United States during the racial tensions. The older populace was actually scared to death of the new changes coming in the air. The younger generation for the most part, had little to no working knowledge that tied them to the past ways, the way things USED to be. Today, the mindset is the same, how unnerving to some to come to the realization that earth may be little more than a Cosmic Petri dish and we have no way of every knowing and seeing those peering from behind the microscope, until they want us to. So, for men of science it is easier by far to say something doesn't exist without proof. As how could bacteria in a Petri dish ever hope to prove the existence of the CDC technician studying it from behind the microscope?

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Actually....it could be seen as a breach to say that...IMO.

Your opinion does not matter, it is not a breach of the law, and other so called whistleblowers not to mention every second person who lives in Roswell have made that very statement.

All the interviews he has done...all the conferences he has spoken at...I'd say he was and is more than happy to share what he has to say.

You try and make out that he was pushed into the limelight on these issues....kicking and screaming,

but it is obvious that he wanted to tell the public these things...

You could try listening to what Edgar has to say. He was not keen to come forth, people he had known his entire life felt he was trustworthy and did indeed approach him. I am not making out anything, I am relaying exactly what has n=been said, you are making out there is more to his words than one sees at face value. He says people literally tugged at his sleeve to hold him up to tell him their stories.

H+: Did you see anything alien on the Moon when you were there?

EDGAR MITCHELL: No, not at all.

H+: Were you ever officially briefed by the government about UFOs?

EM: No. Not at all.

H+: So the “briefing” you had with the Admiral of the Intelligence Committee for the Joint Chiefs of Staff — that was you briefing them on what you had been told, and not the other way around?

EM: Right. Let me give you the whole story, from the very beginning.

From the beginning, of course, is that I grew up in the Pecos River Valley, near Roswell. I was going into my senior year of high school, in 1947, when the so-called “Roswell Incident” took place. It appeared in the Roswell Daily Record one day that an alien craft had crashed. However, on the next day, it was reported to be a “weather balloon.” And that was the end of that, as far as I was concerned. I was on my way off to college, and I wasn’t concerned about this thing at all.

However, many years later, once I had been to the Moon and back, even though my family no longer lived in the Pecos River Valley, I went back there on a speaking tour. I guess since I’d been to the Moon, and was a local boy, it made me somewhat credible. I was grabbed by several of the local “old timers” who were there in 1947 during the Roswell incident and were involved in it in one way or another. (These folks will remain nameless, even though they’re all dead now.) They’d tug at my sleeve at some event and say “can I talk to you a minute?” Then they would tell me their story about how they were involved in either the recovering of bodies, or directing traffic, or some such thing. They felt for sure that it was a real alien event. They didn’t want to go to the grave with their knowledge and considered me a safe source to tell. They pulled on my sleeve to say, “I want to tell you about it.”

H+: How many different people over the years tugged at your arm and told you they were at Roswell?

EM: I guess there were about 4 or 5 of these folks that were either involved — closely involved — or descendants of people who were involved.

H+: And when was this?

EM: It was shortly after I came back from the Moon, when I was back in town on speaking engagements. I didn’t do much with the information until 1997, when Dr. Stephen Greer, from the Disclosure Project, contacted me.

Edgar Mitchell has said more than enough to satisfy...(under the circumstances)..regardless of how you try and downplay it......

Because of his historic position of being one of the few men who walked on the Moon, that's all the real naysayers can do...

downplay the message he is relaying to the public...

.

I am not downplaying anything Bee, you are doing what the papers are, and taking one line from a sentence and making the rest up. You are embellishing and exaggerating Edgars words to build up a fantasy that in reality does not exist.

What does he say about walking on the moon Bee?

H+: Did you see anything alien on the Moon when you were there?

EDGAR MITCHELL: No, not at all.

You can try to make a mountain out of a molehill all you like, but at the end of the day, it's still a molehill. And the fact that some locals at Roswell completely believe the saucer crash story is really no revelation.

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A good chunk of this mess is that Mitchell was duped by Greer. Greer lost so much credibility in recent years that that Mitchell has made it clear publicly that he has distanced himself from him because of Greer's radical and unproven theories and claims. Snakeoil.

I think Mitchell made a good choice...I'll bet he doesn't have one of these on his phone...from Greer's latest:

GreersLatest.png

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always :yes:

So using that logic may I ask if you would find Zosers beliefs more 'credible' than Mitchells on the ETH simply based on the fact that Zoser also doesnt subscribe to any of the mentioned above areas?

(apologies for using you in this example Zoser, but I am using Psyches perception of you to show my point.....it is not a perception I personally agree with but thats neither here nor there....neither is whether you really belive in religion esp etc...at least not for the hypothetical posed)

Does Zoser not subscribe to any of those? Does he not cite the Bible on a fairly regular basis? That is supernatural.

Zoserism - If you want something factual; look at the footage. We don't need text books to tell us facts; there are other ways. - LINK

I do not find one single thing that Zoser has ever typed even remotely credible. Rather than a belief, I truly consider his claims fantasy.

No, if the above was the case, which I cannot say I feel is the case, then again no, as Zoser has demonstrated no value in his ramblings, and obviously has lied about real world experience. Edgar Mitchell allows for experimentation, so at least he has attempted to find an answer, where as Zoser has not. Zoser just makes stuff up, and expects other people to believe his crazy nonsense and tries to act like an authority, when he is anything but.

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No.....(although everyone IS entitled to their own opinions and beliefs)

This 'message'....

and the rest of it....

http://www.dailymail...d-60-years.html

Why did you doctor his message then Bee? Do you not have confidence in it's entirety? Why did you purposefully not post the last sentance from the daily fail?

it was:

Reading the papers recently, it's been happening quite a bit.

'

Reading the papers Bee?

So how's that work? All this inside information, but Dr Mitchell relies on the paper like everyone else in the world?

Doing what you are doing here Bee, is exactly why Dr Mitchell had that interview with Lisa Bonnice that you are also quite weel aware of, where he stated:

LB: As we were mentioning before the show started, you really stirred up a hornet’s nest, strangely enough, and like you said, you’ve been saying this for years.

EM: I don’t know what really got things stirred up, perhaps it was the Larry King show. I don’t know.

LB: Could be. But basically people are freaking out that you were aware of several UFO visits.

EM: That’s not quite right. You use that in the plural. I was talking about the Roswell incident, the Roswell visitation primarily, but there have been many others that have been reported that I have no personal awareness of but that was the one that I was really talking about.

LINK

He has heard a few anecdotes and promised his long term friends that their fantasies would see the light of day. After that, you made the rest up.

The message indeed. Good God Bee. That's no message.

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Mankind is presumably the most dominant, and intelligent, (Relatively speaking) species on the planet. As such we both know and understand we have only been here in our present state for about 4 million years. The planet is some 4.5 BILLION years old. So this leaves an almost unimaginable gap for almost unimaginable things to have occurred. So why, pre-tell-me, does mankind think it has the sum total knowledge and have covered the all-encompassing measure of what constitutes physical life and our physical laws? In other words, there are still aspects to the laws of physics that exist and that may be employed by older civilizations, that mankind has yet to discover. So, as a race that is really so young they amount to kindergarteners, how can there be such arrogance as to make such statements as an event being impossible. The truth of what is happening here is maintaining a comfort zone. I have found that above all, humans want to be comfortable. And in that comfort not be disturbed. So the longer this stage of comfort exists, the harder it is for people to relinquish said comfort. This was evident in the 1950's in the United States during the racial tensions. The older populace was actually scared to death of the new changes coming in the air. The younger generation for the most part, had little to no working knowledge that tied them to the past ways, the way things USED to be. Today, the mindset is the same, how unnerving to some to come to the realization that earth may be little more than a Cosmic Petri dish and we have no way of every knowing and seeing those peering from behind the microscope, until they want us to. So, for men of science it is easier by far to say something doesn't exist without proof. As how could bacteria in a Petri dish ever hope to prove the existence of the CDC technician studying it from behind the microscope?

Awesome, so you are saying the spark of life is proven to be older than 4.5 billion years, and you have evidence of that, because that has to be the case if life is so much older than that here in earth, so you can tell me how life started, and it would be nice if you could place a marker on Star evolution, and how that affects the question of life, which it must being the creator of all elements.

When did the first life begin, and was it preceded by some sort of protolife? You must know this if you know life exceeds that which we are aware of, and what are the physics discrepancies you refer to? Misunderstanding ir a wider scope, and how do you determine that considering the periodic table, and the life spans of the elements within it?

Please feel free to dazzle those of us in the "comfort zone" who are still scratching our heads over the questions it appears you have answered. That is if you have time on your way to pick up your Nobel Prize.

Or are you just blowing wind out your rear orifice?

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Doesn't Edgar Mitchell's opinion really depend on what the people he interviewed claimed?

It's one thing if a retired ex-military guy wants to get something off his chest and says, 'Hey Edgar, you know, I saw a UFO once while I was flying over xxxx', and another thing entirely if they same guy said, 'Hey Edgar, you know we met with aliens out at the xxx base. They landed, got out and chatted with us for four hours before leaving...'

What exactly has he been told?

Gidday Mate

Edgar has claimed that sone people told him the Roswell crash was real, and that is all we know. From the stories, from what I can gather, Roswellians that knew Edgar very well and had grown up with him came up to him after some shows and put the Roswell media story on him, to which he felt obliged to spread the word about, as his friends had suggested. From there, as I understand he hooked up with the fringe element and Lazar and Greer told him that there was information at the top, which would validate his friends, which he seems happy to have heard, and tried to uncover, very unsuccessfully, but still maintains that the rubbish he heard is accurate, and his superiors are holding ou on him.

Quillius and I had a long thread deeply delving into these sources, and in the end, the sources were a shambles mate. Nothing there. He spoke to some high profile people, but from what I gathered they were just annoyed that people like Greer had used people like Mitchell to harras them with personal musings.

There are no real stories, not the sort of things you can tell under a flashlight, Edgar advocates Roswell, and Bob Lazar, that about all there is to tell, he gives away no names, no story specifics, nothing more than he believes other people who believe that Roswell was a real ET incident. It was quite an effort to dig up all his references, had Quillius and I at it for quite some pages.

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I was thinking about this thread over the last few days,One thing I see is that Dr.Mitchell most likely gives not a !@@t about anything that is said ! But Looking into my Viking Sunstone I see that in the early days of mankind we are quite short a few answers in the area of Human evolution,and what in the heck is all this Stuff about racial tensions and getting older? Someone please bring this into the actual world of Dr. Mitchell please? :tu:

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