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Wolverathe

OBE fears and questions

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Hi guys,

I came across this forum a long time ago but didn't have much time to check everything out

I just read some of the OBE / Astral Projection topics

I have experiencing sleep paralysis for almost a year now. But I'm always too afraid to go for the next stage (OBE/AP)

When the first time I experienced SP (Sleep paralysis) I was just so scared and the latter ones I just let it be ...

But when i thought of something that thing immediately became true (I always thought of evils, ghosts, etc. waiting for me)

And what if there were really ones?

What should I do to overcome this fear? And will I end up meeting any devils while OBE if I think of them EVEN THOUGH i DON'T WANT TO see/meet them?

Thank you for taking your time... Thanks much and blessings !

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I think whatever happens just as you think is caused by your imagination.Astral plane in my view,is when you enter the real world or spiritual world whilst at the same time you are dreaming.When you project,since your body is still active dreaming must also be there too,doesn't it make sense? Some times some find things things not real sometimes real as hell(one of the reasons why ap is still not unified with dreaming) .So imagining can cause you to view a dream scene or can induce a dream itself(the very principle of wiLD technique).So what i am saying is that it is a place where you stand between dreaming and reality.

Not a prototype's new theory or something :P,but my view.Hey while others like me are waiting for a chance like sp,you are just pausing there? What are you waiting for? Just try projecting

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SP is a defense against Sleep Walking so we don't hurt are self or others. Also we AP every night when we sleep to even if we don't remember it. So unless you dream about Demons and **** than chances are you won't see the Devil.

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Hi guys,

I came across this forum a long time ago but didn't have much time to check everything out

I just read some of the OBE / Astral Projection topics

I have experiencing sleep paralysis for almost a year now. But I'm always too afraid to go for the next stage (OBE/AP)

When the first time I experienced SP (Sleep paralysis) I was just so scared and the latter ones I just let it be ...

But when i thought of something that thing immediately became true (I always thought of evils, ghosts, etc. waiting for me)

And what if there were really ones?

What should I do to overcome this fear? And will I end up meeting any devils while OBE if I think of them EVEN THOUGH i DON'T WANT TO see/meet them?

Thank you for taking your time... Thanks much and blessings !

Part of an altered state practice should also be a meditation practice. Meditations will teach you to control and observe your thoughts. To acomplish things OOb it's is necessary to leave the chatter behind and be singularly focused on your task.

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Thank you everyone

I know it's only my imagination but I can't help it...

@Seeker79 : you're right... thank you ... you just made me realize that I need to meditate...

But i'm having some problems with meditation ... Can you show me what is a good/best way to meditate?

Because everytime I try to meditate - I focus on breathing ... inhale ... exhale... inhale... exhale ... then I ...fall asleep ...

Please help me . Overcoming fears is the only thing that blocked me from astral projecting ... Thank you

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I've posted this somewhere else but I can repeat it:

When you project (this information does not come from MY experience, but from readings and discussions with people who have projected) there are low vibration entities "waiting" for you when you come out. However, entities are nothing but mindless leeches that only want to feed off energy. Just simply dismissing them (saying "shoo!" or "go away!" ) will raise your vibration and send them away, they're nothing to fear. The only way to come in contact that is incredibly dangerous is inviting it in or to look for it. It's by nature that we fear something we don't understand so it's 100% understandable to have some sort of fear when first learning/trying astral projection.

However, fear can draw in dangerous entities (don't let this scare you though) so its best to find out what you're afraid of, research it, meditate on it, and overcome it. I was once afraid of entities waiting for me right as I left my body, but you have to understand when you project you are COMPLETELY in control. You can literally "shoot" white loving light at entities or beings that cause you to be afraid. It sounds cool when thinking about it, and it's a very helpful way to think about it. I suggest trying to lucid dream and face fear that way some how. That way you know what your fear is, and you can conquer it without any harm being done. Good luck!

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Thank you everyone

I know it's only my imagination but I can't help it...

@Seeker79 : you're right... thank you ... you just made me realize that I need to meditate...

But i'm having some problems with meditation ... Can you show me what is a good/best way to meditate?

Because everytime I try to meditate - I focus on breathing ... inhale ... exhale... inhale... exhale ... then I ...fall asleep ...

Please help me . Overcoming fears is the only thing that blocked me from astral projecting ... Thank you

Well... There are all sorts of meditations, you can even create your own. I have crated an endorphin meditation. My suggestion is to pick up some books and start reading and see what speaks to you. Any meditation will be good for mental control. As to fear. Well it's easer said than done, but the trick is to simply give it up. Consider it a bad habit and just let it go.

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Posted (edited)

I've posted this somewhere else but I can repeat it:

When you project (this information does not come from MY experience, but from readings and discussions with people who have projected) there are low vibration entities "waiting" for you when you come out. However, entities are nothing but mindless leeches that only want to feed off energy. Just simply dismissing them (saying "shoo!" or "go away!" ) will raise your vibration and send them away, they're nothing to fear. The only way to come in contact that is incredibly dangerous is inviting it in or to look for it. It's by nature that we fear something we don't understand so it's 100% understandable to have some sort of fear when first learning/trying astral projection.

However, fear can draw in dangerous entities (don't let this scare you though) so its best to find out what you're afraid of, research it, meditate on it, and overcome it. I was once afraid of entities waiting for me right as I left my body, but you have to understand when you project you are COMPLETELY in control. You can literally "shoot" white loving light at entities or beings that cause you to be afraid. It sounds cool when thinking about it, and it's a very helpful way to think about it. I suggest trying to lucid dream and face fear that way some how. That way you know what your fear is, and you can conquer it without any harm being done. Good luck!

yes in astral travel /obeing, like lucid dreaming,y ou are totally in control. But if you do not realise this, your subconscious may materialse fears in symbolic shapes and forms within your dream obe or travel.

There are a couple of options One can be to be absolutely certain th t nothing can harm you. Then you can just say "This is my dream/ OBE/ astral adventure. I am the boss here and you are all under my control.

If tha tis too hard to start with, all you require is a symbolic defence like an energy shield. Or you can utilise offensive weapons if this more suits your nature. This requires a little less confidence and control. These can be the beams of light you speak of or anything else you are comfortable and familiar with. You still have to be confident both consciously and subconsciously, or your fears can slip inside yourr defences or cause oyur weaposn to malfunction. Eventualy it doesnt even become an issue because you are in such total control of your experience

For example, I was dreaming last night that i went through a bus window and was hanging onto a door trying to get inside the moving bus.I suddenly realised that, in real life i couldnt just go through a window without smashing it, so i knew i was dreaming. I immediately said to the bus driver," This is my dream and you are a part of it" He wouldnt believe me, so i said, "Watch this." and slowly pushed my index finger through the palm of his hand. This caused no pain or blood, and was fascinating to watch, and he agreed it must be a dream.

From then on i took charge of the dreamscape and played around with it for an hour or so, just having fun with different scenarios Like making the bus fly us throughthe air to our destination, and 'surfing" on top of the moving bus. I also took a few of the students on the bus for some joy rides and gave them some basic lessons in flying your body and controlling it.

This was just controlled lucid dreaming, but OBEing and, IMO, astral travel, is much the same .

Edited by Mr Walker
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I'll add a bit of caution. Something that mw alluded to. Your fears are indeed you. Which also means that you/they know what gets you and where you are weak. In this way they can take a life of their own. I have found that if you mechanism your resistance to fear, you will evenchually think your way around your mechanation. I think this why dream caracters will sometimes turn on people upon becoming lucid. It has certainly happened to me.

I have found that simply surrendering fear and waveing it off as nothing has better results than thought form tools against manifestations. In essence attack your fears at their base instead of reacting to the manifestation itself. Just refuse to play the game and go about your business.

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Posted (edited)

I'll add a bit of caution. Something that mw alluded to. Your fears are indeed you. Which also means that you/they know what gets you and where you are weak. In this way they can take a life of their own. I have found that if you mechanism your resistance to fear, you will evenchually think your way around your mechanation. I think this why dream caracters will sometimes turn on people upon becoming lucid. It has certainly happened to me.

I have found that simply surrendering fear and waveing it off as nothing has better results than thought form tools against manifestations. In essence attack your fears at their base instead of reacting to the manifestation itself. Just refuse to play the game and go about your business.

Yes i agree. Ultimately the most effective method is "simply" not fearing, either consciously or subconsciously One can truly put all fear so far aside that it ceases to exist. However this requires a high degree of self awareness and the ability to recognise and remove subconscious fears and concerns.

Not all "monsters" are the result of fear. Some are avatars of more complex subconscious constructs like jealousy or emotional conflict etc.

The most classic i had was as a pre teenager. In my dreamscape I had a praetorian guard of giant rabbits to protect me. One day they turned on me because I had broken a contract with them (my subconscious) I had spoken to other kids about my dream world after promising to keep it a secret.

The guards tried to shoot me full of arrows But I just told them they were my constructs and they couldn't hurt me in my dream scape . Then the leader said something interesting like, "FAir enough but we can ban you form this world" and they did After years of occupying this wonderfula and creative fantasy world i was never able to enter it again Of course i realised that this was my own subconsciouss way of telling me tha my long interlude with a childhood dreamworld was coming to an end. I wa s becoming an adolescent, going to high school and it was time to put behind my chidllhood dreams. I was complicit in a subconscious, and then conscious, realisation that my childhood was ending and it was time to evolve, and i had subconsciously'instructed" the guard to end my time in my first dreamscape

SO, i constructed a new and more adolescent -appropriate dreamscape which i called "The realms" where I had years more fun .

Edited by Mr Walker
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That's awesome.

I had a dream character turn on me once. Her face contorted when I turned lucid. Then I grabbed her by the arm and put her in time out scolding her like one of my kids. I explained to her that it was my dream and I wasn't going to tolerate any of that behavior.

Another time I woke up in sleep paralysis with what felt like claws around my legs. Haveing gained a measure of altered state control over the years, I reach down with my mind and took control over them and made them give me a foot massage. I fell back asleep chuckling at myself.

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Hey guys ... Another problem now . Please help . I just met a group of meditation group today , and maybe i have been become overwhelming with the materials, or im too excited maybe ... I drank an icecap at late night . Then i went to sleep . As for me , sleep paralysis happen spontaneous and whenever i lay down on my bed , after a minute or so i can feel my whole body tingling . And it could become a sleep paralysis (when begin to sleep not after sleep for long time) . Hence i was so afraid of having 1 (im not ready yet) . My body is tired but my mind is full of energy . I kept thinking while falling asleep and it occurs. SP when i dont want it to occur . I tried to think positive , then i saw some energy and then i rolled up . I saw myself out of body , i went around the room then back to body and sp -> woke up . The point is i knew it was just mental projection or lucid dream not really ap yet. It lied between . Now im too afraid to sleep and result is i didnt sleep at all . What should i do now to control that sp ? Please advice . Thanks all ,.. Im in a state now i think im crazy and this is not really healthy ...

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Hey guys ... Another problem now . Please help . I just met a group of meditation group today , and maybe i have been become overwhelming with the materials, or im too excited maybe ... I drank an icecap at late night . Then i went to sleep . As for me , sleep paralysis happen spontaneous and whenever i lay down on my bed , after a minute or so i can feel my whole body tingling . And it could become a sleep paralysis (when begin to sleep not after sleep for long time) . Hence i was so afraid of having 1 (im not ready yet) . My body is tired but my mind is full of energy . I kept thinking while falling asleep and it occurs. SP when i dont want it to occur . I tried to think positive , then i saw some energy and then i rolled up . I saw myself out of body , i went around the room then back to body and sp -> woke up . The point is i knew it was just mental projection or lucid dream not really ap yet. It lied between . Now im too afraid to sleep and result is i didnt sleep at all . What should i do now to control that sp ? Please advice . Thanks all ,.. Im in a state now i think im crazy and this is not really healthy ...

If its being disruptive to your life then you should take a break from thinking about it.

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Posted (edited)

I'm not surprised with the timing of this post..

I saw myself out of body , i went around the room then back to body and sp -> woke up . The point is i knew it was just mental projection or lucid dream not really ap yet. It lied between . Now im too afraid to sleep and result is i didnt sleep at all . What should i do now to control that sp ? Please advice . Thanks all ,.. Im in a state now i think im crazy and this is not really healthy ...

So how do you know it was in between considering your first post? What makes you think it wasn't an 'out of body experience'?

Here is some information you might find interesting. It might give you a new way of considering things which might even relax you.

The Link Between OBEs and Lucid Dreams

Our scientific understanding of the OBE strongly suggests that it is a type of lucid dream. It's no coincidence that out-of-body induction techniques are virtually identical to

Wake Induced Lucid Dreams. They are virtually the same phenomenon: An OBE/WILD begins when you're lying down, ideally having recently woken from a sleep. The body then slips back into sleep paralysis (the protective mechanism which prevents us from acting out our dreams) and the body falls asleep. However, unlike in normal sleep, the mind (your conscious awareness) remains awake.

This can give you the unusual sensation of being "stuck" in your physical body, with the need to free yourself. In reality, you are already dreaming. However the sensation of sleep paralysis, plus the continuation of consciousness, tricks your body into dreaming that you are still lying in bed. Your bedroom may look exactly as normal - or there may be subtle differences, such as an extra window. At this stage, with the conscious mind active while dreaming, we call it lucid dreaming. The experience can be highly tactile and vivid. Lucid dreamers will attest that it can feel incredibly real, and those who genuinely believe they are having an out-of-body experience will have a hard time admitting it's all "just a dream".

To complete the transition, you need to use your imagination to swing, float or roll out of your body, which still feels like lead thanks to the sleep paralysis. Other dream characters (often perceived as ghosts, spirits, aliens or even demons) may enter your bedroom and can either help or hinder your efforts. Their behavior generally depends on your own expectation and level of fear / happiness. It is also possible to "teleport" out of your body and directly into a new dream scene / OBE location. Just visualizing the desired location can lead to instant OBE travel.

Often during the WILD technique, it is possible to bypass the whole experience of going out-of-body by visualizing the lucid dream scene before you start dreaming. With your eyes closed, focus your attention on your

hypnagogia and let go of any bodily sensation whatsoever. Many people find this a much smoother transition. For step-by-step instructions, see my WILD tutorial.

Astral Projection

Astral projection (or astral travel) is an esoteric interpretation of the out of body experience that assumes the existence of a spirit.

The symptoms are much the same as an OBE: feelings of floating out of your body, meeting other entities, and experiencing the physical world from an ethereal perspective (ie, being able to float through walls and teleport around the universe).

However, the expectation principle can cause the experience of astral projection to take on a highly spiritual form. Believers in the afterlife expect to see angels, deceased spirits and even gods - and so that is often what they do see while projecting. They may travel to different "astral planes"; layers of ethereal realities shaped by energy and light. Yet one key similarity remains: in astral projection, out of body experiences and lucid dreams, your thoughts and feelings guide the experience.

So if you imagine a friend's house, you will likely zap there in an instant. If you imagine your body back in bed, you will quickly return to it. And if you expect to see an astral chord connecting you to your body, it will doubtless be there. In my view, astral projection is just a spiritual interpretation of the OBE, and I have no reason to believe it is actually true.

As you read more about OBE phenomena, you will encounter esoteric theories in support of life after death and astral travel. My advice is to remain skeptical until you have enough personal experience to decide for yourself. This is one scenario where believing in ghosts and ghouls will almost certainly deliver negative experiences, so it's wise to keep a cool head and take your out-of-body dreams for exactly what they are - dreams! Intense, vivid, inspiring, profound, spiritual. But dreams nonetheless!

Anyway in regards to your question..

As for me , sleep paralysis happen spontaneous and whenever i lay down on my bed , after a minute or so i can feel my whole body tingling . And it could become a sleep paralysis (when begin to sleep not after sleep for long time) . Hence i was so afraid of having 1 (im not ready yet) . My body is tired but my mind is full of energy . I kept thinking while falling asleep and it occurs. SP when i dont want it to occur What should i do now to control that sp ? Please advice . Thanks all ,.. Im in a state now i think im crazy and this is not really healthy ...

Because English doesn't seem to be your first language I read this as you thinking it could become SP(that's why I underlined that). And because you kept thinking about it when falling asleep, it occurs when you don't want it to occur. (I hope I read that right)

So I guess a simple answer would be don't think about it. And my advice would be to consider more logical explanations on what OBE's are. It might calm you down and help you get over your problems.

Edited by Kazahel

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I'm not surprised with the timing of this post..

So how do you know it was in between considering your first post? What makes you think it wasn't an 'out of body experience'?

Here is some information you might find interesting. It might give you a new way of considering things which might even relax you.

[/left]

Anyway in regards to your question..

Because English doesn't seem to be your first language I read this as you thinking it could become SP(that's why I underlined that). And because you kept thinking about it when falling asleep, it occurs when you don't want it to occur. (I hope I read that right)

So I guess a simple answer would be don't think about it. And my advice would be to consider more logical explanations on what OBE's are. It might calm you down and help you get over your problems.

What makes what you posted more logical?

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What makes what you posted more logical?

Common sense and science.

You can either believe that your spirit is really separating from your body(which would be easy to prove but hasn't been)or you can understand that the mind creates the experience in just as much detail as it does every other dreaming experience.

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Posted (edited)

Common sense and science.

You can either believe that your spirit is really separating from your body(which would be easy to prove but hasn't been)or you can understand that the mind creates the experience in just as much detail as it does every other dreaming experience.

Common sense? That's funny. What you are referring to as science ( yes I have read your link, and I have seen it all before) actually throws common sense out the door and engages in some of the most wrong headed fallacies in logic & science, mostly because of a very strong materialistic bias.

If you actually take a critical look at the 'science' of it, and ask some common sense questions it's not hard to see the severe bias in some of these things. Then when you show people that have faith in materialism how wrong it is to base conclusions off of some of this 'research' the only thing you get back is insults, crickets chirping, or philibustering style arguments.

Id be happy to show you point by point how bias and logically unsound your linked article is if you want. But I'll have to wait till I finish some gardening and do it on my lap top instead of this infernal phone. Lots of honey doos today.

As to--- if there were a soul, we would have found it by now----

Yeah right. And everything that can be invented has been already.

Edited by Seeker79

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Common sense and science.

You can either believe that your spirit is really separating from your body(which would be easy to prove but hasn't been)or you can understand that the mind creates the experience in just as much detail as it does every other dreaming experience.

I have never experienced the slightest sleep paralysis in my entire life, (over 60 years) yet most of my life, from first memory, I have been constantly using controlled lucid dreaming. From a slightly later age (pre teen from memory) I have been using and obeing to travel in real time and space, and across time.

There is a difference between the two. OBE ing can be verified as happening in the external world, while lucid dreaming exists within the confines of your conscious/subconscious mind and imagination (I am not talking about astral projection here which is probably impossible to verify)

It is very easy to absolutely verify that you can project your consciousness as an observer across both real time /space and back into time, using witnesses, controlled experiments, and today via google earth. When I began (in the 1950s) it was harder to verify long distance travel to many places on earth; today it is easy. One has to be honest with oneself and not cheat. Using witnesses and controlled experimentation is even more convincing. It is not always possible to do this on demand although practice discipline and training all help; but even a few proven succesess demonstrate that something most consider impossible is very real.

Today I have travelled as a tourist to most of the world, observed most of its wonderful sights; including dawn breaking from the great pyramid, wildebeste and other animals racing across the serengheti in a huge dust cloud, and fog lifting from macchu pichu. I have explored the streets of exotic cities, flown over the tundra of Canada and Russia and flown through the Zambesi falls. All without my physical body leaving home and without it costing me a cent.

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Posted (edited)

If you actually take a critical look at the 'science' of it, and ask some common sense questions it's not hard to see the severe bias in some of these things. Then when you show people that have faith in materialism how wrong it is to base conclusions off of some of this 'research' the only thing you get back is insults, crickets chirping, or philibustering style arguments.

Id be happy to show you point by point how bias and logically unsound your linked article is if you want. But I'll have to wait till I finish some gardening and do it on my lap top instead of this infernal phone. Lots of honey doos today.

Have you ever considered that you are bias because you have spent much time in believing that what you are experiencing is actually separate from dreaming? I understand many will be like this because they wish it to be a separate experience(and most have simply been told it is). I went over this the other day with you and the only way you could truly separate the experiences(dreaming-obe) was that one was aware of coming out of the body and seeing the body. But this can be created by the mind by focusing on the body when you are coming into dreaming. Which is what I've said before is most likely happening. And that is common sense. Common sense would tell us that this is what is occurring.

You can either believe that your 'spirit body' is separating from the mind/body at the beginning of dreaming or you can understand that the mind is creating an experience that is more focused on the body as it slips into dreaming. Which one is common sense? (And considering most are using the WILD technique in order to have an obe)... WILD means Wake Induced Lucid Dream for those that don't know.

Also I've heard you talk many times in other threads about negative entities during sleep paralysis and obe/astral and you have told everybody to understand that these are creations of your mind. A quick example..

Demons are manifestations of fear. They do not exist as separate entity's. Although.... The mind is very powerful and can give them personality. these shadow personalities can have a life of their own, but they are still apart of the creator of them.

Fair enough and I somewhat agree. But what I don't understand is how you can believe that these negative entities which are a part of the mind(like a dreaming mind.. created because of a thought/expectation/fear) but that the experience of obe is not from the mind or created as an expectation. So if the mind is a powerful thing why would it not be more logical that the mind is creating the experience of obe/astral just as it creates the negative entities and dreaming.

So it seems you say that during obe/astral experiences, that the negative entities are just from your own mind but then you travel off thinking you're really walking around in your own house?

Basically considering the mind is powerful enough to recreate everything that it does in dreaming in such detail, then it should be no surprise that the mind can create an obe experience from focusing on the body. And common sense would tell us this is most likely occurring.

There is a difference between the two. OBE ing can be verified as happening in the external world, while lucid dreaming exists within the confines of your conscious/subconscious mind and imagination (I am not talking about astral projection here which is probably impossible to verify)

It is very easy to absolutely verify that you can project your consciousness as an observer across both real time /space and back into time, using witnesses, controlled experiments, and today via google earth.

Then it would've been done by now yes, considering the amount of people that claim to be able to do it. If its very easy to absolutely verify then science would've verified it. And I don't think science has? If it has let me know, I'd be interested.

Edited by Kazahel

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As to--- if there were a soul, we would have found it by now----

Yeah right. And everything that can be invented has been already.

By the way where did you get this from?

I don't think I've ever said that anywhere and I don't think it was in any link I've posted.

So it appears that you are trying to misquote me. Speaking about if there is a soul or if obe's can be verified are different things.

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Posted (edited)

Have you ever considered that you are bias because you have spent much time in believing that what you are experiencing is actually separate from dreaming? I understand many will be like this because they wish it to be a separate experience(and most have simply been told it is). I went over this the other day with you and the only way you could truly separate the experiences(dreaming-obe) was that one was aware of coming out of the body and seeing the body. But this can be created by the mind by focusing on the body when you are coming into dreaming. Which is what I've said before is most likely happening. And that is common sense. Common sense would tell us that this is what is occurring.

You can either believe that your 'spirit body' is separating from the mind/body at the beginning of dreaming or you can understand that the mind is creating an experience that is more focused on the body as it slips into dreaming. Which one is common sense? (And considering most are using the WILD technique in order to have an obe)... WILD means Wake Induced Lucid Dream for those that don't know.

Also I've heard you talk many times in other threads about negative entities during sleep paralysis and obe/astral and you have told everybody to understand that these are creations of your mind. A quick example..

Fair enough and I somewhat agree. But what I don't understand is how you can believe that these negative entities which are a part of the mind(like a dreaming mind.. created because of a thought/expectation/fear) but that the experience of obe is not from the mind or created as an expectation. So if the mind is a powerful thing why would it not be more logical that the mind is creating the experience of obe/astral just as it creates the negative entities and dreaming.

So it seems you say that during obe/astral experiences, that the negative entities are just from your own mind but then you travel off thinking you're really walking around in your own house?

Basically considering the mind is powerful enough to recreate everything that it does in dreaming in such detail, then it should be no surprise that the mind can create an obe experience from focusing on the body. And common sense would tell us this is most likely occurring.

Then it would've been done by now yes, considering the amount of people that claim to be able to do it. If its very easy to absolutely verify then science would've verified it. And I don't think science has? If it has let me know, I'd be interested.

If you would like to dig up more of my posts kaz you would see that I allow for OBEs to be purely biological in nature. That's when I turned to very experiments and information you linked to, but when I saw how purely flawed and tainted their reasoning was I am left with my experiences, which are fairly powerful. I am waiting for the smoking gun to show me that OBEs and NDEs are not exactly what they apear to be, and yes I have seen the materialist arguments and they have been shred to peices with no rebutteles what so ever. Worse some of the prominent ones are just plain silly and conclusions operate from assuming the conclusion in the first place, a heinous logical fallacy.

If you would like to dig up more of my posts (that is your habit right?) , you will also see that I view conciousness as a continuum. No lines but a rainbow of descent. There are places for dreams, there are places for OBEs, NDEs, waking events, lucid dreams etc etc . And yes..they cross over blend, inturpretation problems etc etc etc. I have sifted through many of these.

Through much experimentation and experience the common concept of demon or neg, I have prooven to myself that I can control them. Do that to angle or spirit guide and they will smile at you like a child that does not understand the world. I suppose they could be deceiving me as I am told by Christians all the time, but somehow I think not.

Could it be inside my mind? Of course it can. It just so happens I perceive my non expanded conciousness (the physical world) inside my mind also. Who or what is a mental construct? Is my garden a mental construct? Are my kids? Is my friend the spirit guide? Am I to deni her because my relationship with her is in a different reality, that you say is an illusion ... When you don't have any evidence? What about the others? Just like everyone else dream characters and thought forms do not have the personal quality traits of other beings. They act as teachers and guides just as the have for my ancestors for thousands of years.

You are basing likely hoods on nothing at all. You ask what is more likely? Well then now we are talking about probabilities, now we need numbers, numbers is evidence. There is not a shred of evidence... not an iota of data that is even remotely convincing from an un biased analytical point of view why an experience should not be exactly what it appears to be.

Some scientist hooks electrodes up to some girls head and zaps a portion of her brain to experience a 'god presence'. Then he says "see its all in the brain".. It's funny to even think about. If I had enough money and expertise I could make a peanut butter helmet. When I turn it on it would give you the taste of peanut butter in your mouth, and then I would quit eroniously declare, "since I can stimulate the taste of peanut butter, peanuts must all be in the mind, and there are no such thing as peanuts." my point is not to compare two totally different things, my point is to show how silly it is to declare something an illusion just because it can be simulated. On the contrary!!!!! There is a very specific reason we taste peanut butter the way we do. Mostly because it's real and has benefits to our existence, yet when It comes to god or expanded conciousness we say it's an illusion.

This goes along with mind altering drugs and myriad of other circumstances that induce altered states of conciousness including mediation and In between sleep states. If a scientist is assuming the materialist conclusion, then sure because you alter the brain, you alter conciousness, it makes perfect sense, but the logical scientist should then not assume the conclusion and consider the other possibilities.

As of now most of the world Is spiritual. In almost all beliefs the brain/body is a vessel or an antenna for conciousness. Do you have a radio tuner in your car? What happens when you tweak ( alter the antenna) the channels? you guessed it. Odd mixes of stations, white noise, then the tuneing in to something else entirely ( sound familiar? ) . Nearly all 'evidence' hailed by materialists that the brain is entirely responsible for the production of conciousness fits perfectly well with the view that the brain is a receiver of it. In fact, it could be considered solid evidence for it just the same. The unbiased person ( if there is such a thing) must look at both sides equally. There are no likely hoods without data, and the data actually supports both view points. An unbiased person must accept this. Then we come to the experiences themselves. In every instance we see experiences that are exactly what we would expect if the brain is a receiver, and some sort of non physical actually does exist. Similarities in experiences, uncanny strong corolations between life saveing technology advancements and NDEs, and varificaation experiences like mr.walker has described which I my self have had. And an entire human history of the non physical world being woven into the fabrick of aboriginal life.

What's a guy to do?

Am I bias... Hell yeah! How can I not be? These "likely hoods", logically fallacious view points, and eronius interpretations of experimental results seem to be the real illusions, delusions, and bias misinterpretations.

All things being equal the simpilist explanation tends to be the right one. Well?? What's more simple in unbiased thought? A fairly common experience experienced by people for all of human history that is pretty clear there is a different place and mode of existence, or an illusion that is an accident of evolutionary psychology that mimics what glimpses of a non physical reality might look like, produces shared experiences, precognitive information, has strong corolations of incidence with people that meditate, spend time close to nature or in prayer, and increase as life saveing technology improves.

Unless there is some new evidence, I think the logic and common sense is quit clear. Funny thing..... The belief that there is no spirit world or that some people can't project their conciousness is a fairly new development. It's also back up by nothing other than a materials view point which has utterly failed to...well.....materialize.

Sheewwwwww I did that all with my phone... 💪

Edited by Seeker79

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By the way where did you get this from?

I don't think I've ever said that anywhere and I don't think it was in any link I've posted.

So it appears that you are trying to misquote me. Speaking about if there is a soul or if obe's can be verified are different things.

Oh yes.. I'm trying to misquote you there 😷. I'm such a hooligan. Did you see quotes? I'm not sure how you can separate the existence of OBEs with the existence of a soul. In my mind the existence of a soul implies that one would have OBEs...at least evenchually. Definantly upon an ADE. Anyway I thought you said something like that somewhere, I may have been holding it from your linked material.

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If you would like to dig up more of my posts kaz you would see that I allow for OBEs to be purely biological in nature. That's when I turned to very experiments and information you linked to, but when I saw how purely flawed and tainted their reasoning was I am left with my experiences, which are fairly powerful. I am waiting for the smoking gun to show me that OBEs and NDEs are not exactly what they apear to be, and yes I have seen the materialist arguments and they have been shred to peices with no rebutteles what so ever. Worse some of the prominent ones are just plain silly and conclusions operate from assuming the conclusion in the first place, a heinous logical fallacy.

This is easy to say but I haven't seen you tearing anything apart.

If you would like to dig up more of my posts (that is your habit right?) , you will also see that I view conciousness as a continuum. No lines but a rainbow of descent. There are places for dreams, there are places for OBEs, NDEs, waking events, lucid dreams etc etc . And yes..they cross over blend, inturpretation problems etc etc etc. I have sifted through many of these.

I wouldn't say habit but I will take a quote to show what I'm talking about. And I don't think there should be any problem with that. It's the same as providing a link to some text that might be quoted. It's just what people do. You should learn to do it yourself instead of misquoting me as you did above.

Through much experimentation and experience the common concept of demon or neg, I have prooven to myself that I can control them. Do that to angle or spirit guide and they will smile at you like a child that does not understand the world. I suppose they could be deceiving me as I am told by Christians all the time, but somehow I think not.

Why do you bring Christians into it? Are you still trying to pigeonhole me or is it just a habit to talk about them all the time(in a manner to make yourself seem superior to them)? Because I don't see why you would mention them here.

Could it be inside my mind? Of course it can.

Then why would you not think this would not be a more logical explanation of the obe experience? Especially since you acknowledge that 'negs' are created from the minds of the 'ober's'. Why would the rest of the environment not be created as well from the mind of the person. And if it is created in the mind then how can anyone assume they are truly leaving the body.

There is not a shred of evidence... not an iota of data that is even remotely convincing from an un biased analytical point of view why an experience should not be exactly what it appears to be.

But you can claim anything is biased and then shrug it off. Tell me then, where is the evidence(proper scientific evidence)that obe's are not just a creation from a lucid/dream? I agree there is an obe experience but I don't agree they are separate from a lucid dream especially considering the main methods people give to induce them is a WILD technique.

Similarities in experiences, uncanny strong corolations between life saveing technology advancements and NDEs, and varificaation experiences like mr.walker has described which I my self have had.

Yeah yeah I always here about how easy it is to verify but has it been?... And if not why not considering how apparently easy is it?.... So basically just because an experience might feel real and you might think you are actually astral projecting to other countries or leaving the body and walking through your house doesn't mean you really are. The most logical and common sense explanation is you are simply dreaming you are.

Unless there is some new evidence, I think the logic and common sense is quit clear. Funny thing..... The belief that there is no spirit world or that some people can't project their conciousness is a fairly new development. It's also back up by nothing other than a materials view point which has utterly failed to...well.....materialize.

Again where is the evidence that people are actually leaving the body in the first place? It's only a belief... yes I understand why people believe it because I've experienced it many times but I also understand how well the mind is at creating things.

So as I said.. if someone is doing a WILD technique and thinks about their body and leaving it instead of just falling into the dreaming being aware, they are most likely just creating the experience of leaving the body unaware that they are already dreaming.

So yeah if anyone actually wants to read for themselves and listen to more logical explanations on the subject read things that aren't found in the local crystal shop. http://www.lucidity....eamingFAQ2.html

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Oh yes.. I'm trying to misquote you there . I'm such a hooligan. Did you see quotes? I'm not sure how you can separate the existence of OBEs with the existence of a soul. In my mind the existence of a soul implies that one would have OBEs...at least evenchually. Definantly upon an ADE. Anyway I thought you said something like that somewhere, I may have been holding it from your linked material.

When you type this..

As to--- if there were a soul, we would have found it by now----

Yeah right. And everything that can be invented has been already.

Then yes you are misquoting me in order to make a point. Then to say "Did you see quotes?" is just plain silly considering. And looking back I can see you would've taken this from the top post you quoted where I said "which would be easy to prove but hasn't been".

So yes someone can believe in the existence of the soul without having to believe that obe is 'soul travel'. And I'd rather not be misquoted on the matter.

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Posted (edited)

When you type this..

Then yes you are misquoting me in order to make a point. Then to say "Did you see quotes?" is just plain silly considering. And looking back I can see you would've taken this from the top post you quoted where I said "which would be easy to prove but hasn't been".

So yes someone can believe in the existence of the soul without having to believe that obe is 'soul travel'. And I'd rather not be misquoted on the matter.

Your alterego, chip, is starting to come out again kaz. I will not converse with him. It's morning got some things to do, but you never asked me to critique your linked material so I only touched on a few of the issues, I will do a thorough run down and response to your linked material latter this afternoon. Got to get the summer garden in and prepare for a trip I'm leaving for on Tuesday... Take care.

Edited by Seeker79

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