OBE fears and questions

March 25, 2013

Your alterego, chip, is starting to come out again kaz. I will not converse with him. It's morning got some things to do, but you never asked me to critique your linked material so I only touched on a few of the issues, I will do a thorough run down and response to your linked material latter this afternoon. Got to get the summer garden in and prepare for a trip I'm leaving for on Tuesday... Take care.

Seeker79 its very straight forward. I never said anything about science proving if the soul was real, and the words you typed(as if it was a quote or what I had said)is saying I had.

So it was a mistake on your part to assume that the existence of the soul(or my belief of it)goes hand in hand with the existence of 'soul travel'/OBE.

Anyway here is another link that gets you to the lab studies. I don't think the link I provided earlier here takes you to that. http://www.lucidity....eamingFAQ2.html

So have a read through and if you can post any information that shows that it is more likely that the soul is truly leaving the body(so not just a type of lucid dream) then that would be interesting to read. Because so far it seems that science is leaning towards obe's as being lucid dreams.

Also Mr Walker in regards to this..

Today I have travelled as a tourist to most of the world, observed most of its wonderful sights; including dawn breaking from the great pyramid, wildebeste and other animals racing across the serengheti in a huge dust cloud, and fog lifting from macchu pichu. I have explored the streets of exotic cities, flown over the tundra of Canada and Russia and flown through the Zambesi falls. All without my physical body leaving home and without it costing me a cent.

How is this different from dreaming of it?

You see I see people all the time saying they 'astral projected' to the pyramids and different places around the world. But how is it different to someone who dreamt(lucid or not)that they went to the pyramids or somewhere else around the world? I have dreamt of being in many countries and I never call them astral projecting.

So it's appearing as if someone simply dreams of being in another country they can claim it's an astral projection. To me this does not make much sense and to be honest I think people do it because it makes the dreaming experience sound more mystical and mysterious. So if people dream of leaving the body its a 'soul travel'. If people dream of visiting another place(and they lacked the beginning experience of leaving the body) its an 'astral projection'. Where these really do appear just to be fluffy labels given to dreaming experiences.

Anyway so how is it different, and remember you cannot use the answer "it can be verified" because as far as I'm aware science has never verified it.

March 25, 2013

Have you ever considered that you are bias because you have spent much time in believing that what you are experiencing is actually separate from dreaming? I understand many will be like this because they wish it to be a separate experience(and most have simply been told it is). I went over this the other day with you and the only way you could truly separate the experiences(dreaming-obe) was that one was aware of coming out of the body and seeing the body. But this can be created by the mind by focusing on the body when you are coming into dreaming. Which is what I've said before is most likely happening. And that is common sense. Common sense would tell us that this is what is occurring.

You can either believe that your 'spirit body' is separating from the mind/body at the beginning of dreaming or you can understand that the mind is creating an experience that is more focused on the body as it slips into dreaming. Which one is common sense? (And considering most are using the WILD technique in order to have an obe)... WILD means Wake Induced Lucid Dream for those that don't know.

Also I've heard you talk many times in other threads about negative entities during sleep paralysis and obe/astral and you have told everybody to understand that these are creations of your mind. A quick example..

Fair enough and I somewhat agree. But what I don't understand is how you can believe that these negative entities which are a part of the mind(like a dreaming mind.. created because of a thought/expectation/fear) but that the experience of obe is not from the mind or created as an expectation. So if the mind is a powerful thing why would it not be more logical that the mind is creating the experience of obe/astral just as it creates the negative entities and dreaming.

So it seems you say that during obe/astral experiences, that the negative entities are just from your own mind but then you travel off thinking you're really walking around in your own house?

Basically considering the mind is powerful enough to recreate everything that it does in dreaming in such detail, then it should be no surprise that the mind can create an obe experience from focusing on the body. And common sense would tell us this is most likely occurring.

Then it would've been done by now yes, considering the amount of people that claim to be able to do it. If its very easy to absolutely verify then science would've verified it. And I don't think science has? If it has let me know, I'd be interested.

I 've never had a scientist come to me and ask for verification or to participate in a controlled test environment, but absolute scientific standard verification is quite easy to gain personally, albeit not "on demand," using the same standards and controls that such a scientist would use if they tested a person.

You just use controlled testing exactly as a scientist woul.d I am not interested in proving this to others. In some ways it is not something I would like to see widespread of given the trouble it has got me into over the years, but i know it is very possible to send your consciousness as an accurate observer and recorder to other locations and record verbatim conversation occuring, correctly detailed descriptions of people, clothes, houses, artefacts, natural vegetaiton etc. All of this can be scientifically verified using normal scientific methods of investigation.

ANd yes, it has been recorded, including a number of russian government experiments in the latter half of last century.

Basically, while the mind can create anything in exact detail, and stored memory of imaginations is indistinguishable from stored memory of actual events there are simple easy and fool proof tests which can prove your consciousness has travelled to an other place Often a palce oyu have never been to in person or sen on google or film. I determie wah tis an actual Obe by studying the objective evidences provided by the experience either fromm participants/witmnesses or from fil images studied after a trip.

I had travelled all around the world, via obe to places, before television, let alone computers were available. Sometimes it was years before I saw the images of places, landscapes and buildings, on a film which I had seen before accurately and precisely in my obes. Today i can verify instantly via google earth and other sources if what i see and encounter in a OBE has a real and accurate counterpart in real life.. If it does not, I do not count it as an obe but as a controlled lucid dream

March 25, 2013

Seeker79 its very straight forward. I never said anything about science proving if the soul was real, and the words you typed(as if it was a quote or what I had said)is saying I had.

So it was a mistake on your part to assume that the existence of the soul(or my belief of it)goes hand in hand with the existence of 'soul travel'/OBE.

Anyway here is another link that gets you to the lab studies. I don't think the link I provided earlier here takes you to that. http://www.lucidity....eamingFAQ2.html

So have a read through and if you can post any information that shows that it is more likely that the soul is truly leaving the body(so not just a type of lucid dream) then that would be interesting to read. Because so far it seems that science is leaning towards obe's as being lucid dreams.

Also Mr Walker in regards to this..

How is this different from dreaming of it?

You see I see people all the time saying they 'astral projected' to the pyramids and different places around the world. But how is it different to someone who dreamt(lucid or not)that they went to the pyramids or somewhere else around the world? I have dreamt of being in many countries and I never call them astral projecting.

So it's appearing as if someone simply dreams of being in another country they can claim it's an astral projection. To me this does not make much sense and to be honest I think people do it because it makes the dreaming experience sound more mystical and mysterious. So if people dream of leaving the body its a 'soul travel'. If people dream of visiting another place(and they lacked the beginning experience of leaving the body) its an 'astral projection'. Where these really do appear just to be fluffy labels given to dreaming experiences.

Anyway so how is it different, and remember you cannot use the answer "it can be verified" because as far as I'm aware science has never verified it.

It can be verified using scientific controls. YOU say science has not verified it. i do not know if that is true or not but science has never come to me to test my abilities, and for fifty years I never spoke of them because of earlyy childhood experiences with this "travel" around my neighbourhood, and how talking about this got me into a lot of trouble (no one likes to know that someone can be hovering over their house or outside their window, watching and listening to everything.)

Inmy early years, when I thought I was just dreaming, I would talk to neighbours about what i saw espsecially the kids about my age. After a few serious incidents i soon learned to shut up, because what I was describing while I was fast asleep in bed was real events, movements, conversations etc around my neighbourhood.

I know what i experince and I know that my consciousness can be sent specifically around the neighbour hood or around the world to see and record what is theer as acurately as a military drone and a lot closer up but because it is hard, and rare to do, andn even rare to do this "on demand", it has little military or other application. (unlike my ability to locate lost /stolen objects) I use it for fun, education, eg a study of history environments/habitats and foreign places, and just for experience and to extend my human abilities to their maximum.

My first obe "world tour" which lasted nearly 10 hours and followed the sun around my line of latitude, took over a year of training planning, disciplining my mind etc, in preparation for it. It is not something accesible to everyone unless they are prepared and interested enough to make a similar commitment and sustain it. And first you must have control of your dreams and perfect memory/ recall of them, so that you can "step into your consciousness" and extend it at will and follow landmarks or other means to reach a destination.

For me it is a lot like flying a hangglider a hundred meters or so above the earth, and requires physical landforms and way points to reach a required destination. You see what is physically below you as you travel, as well as when you reach your destination. You can soar up higher to get a better/wider view but that means you lose detail of the landmarks. To sum up tha twhich can be indpendently and objectively verified can be calimed as an OBE That which can not be so verified cannot How do i verify an obe? Using the same methods I would use ot verify if an aerial film of a landcape etc was what it purported to be of. Do the signs on buildings seen in the obe match the real world, are the rooves the same colour and configuration etc etc.

I once visited a city that i did not know, but it was in a high mountainous area, on a large lake and its airport was between two separate sections of the city at different altitudes. I spent some time exploring and recording aspects of the city but not being able to speak spanish. I didnt know where it was. Some investigation on the internet narrowed it down to la paz and when I google earthed it there were the same shop fronts, the same parks the same mixture of slum housing and modern dwellings set out exaclty as it was in my own flight over and through it.

Interestingly there was not a lot about la paz in english even on google. I had more information about it from my obe than i could easily find on the internet at the time.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Mr Walker

March 25, 2013

Question all, is`nt a true out of body experience is when you can turn around and see your body lying there frist.? To me dreams are just dreams suggestion dreams, self worry dreams that can be all distorted, adventure dreams. I even dream how I would like my life to be. They say near death experiences are more real then dreams and you can actully feel the pop back into the body,

March 25, 2013

Question all, is`nt a true out of body experience is when you can turn around and see your body lying there frist.? To me dreams are just dreams suggestion dreams, self worry dreams that can be all distorted, adventure dreams. I even dream how I would like my life to be. They say near death experiences are more real then dreams and you can actully feel the pop back into the body,

I can only relate my personal experiences. As a very young child I first learned to fly my body. I was always a lucid dreamer and developed controlled lucid dreaming at an early age. I learned to fly around inside my house and then outside by the time I was two or so. I would fly up on the roof and then up onto a fifty foot high tv antenna.

I could see everything for several houses around, but I began to explore my neighbourhood by obe before i actually explored it in person, (before i started school)

I certainly could look down on my sleeping body and also observe anyone else awake or asleep inthe house but it was more fun exploring in the dark outside Maybe i flew around inside for a year or more but now it doesnt seem like long. I remenber that I always had to go through the doorways until i learned how to move my consciousness through solid objects.

One of the first time i realised this was obeing, not lucid dreaming, (although i had no idea or concept of its name at that age)was when I had to climb up on our roof for the first time to do something. I suddenly realised that I knew that old rusty red roof intimately; every patch, hole, nail, etc., from my sitting up on it in my "dreams" even though i had never actualy been on it in real life.

Slowly i beagn to realise that a lot of my flying dreams were actually explorations of the real neighbourhood. That motivated me more, and i worked harder to learn how to do this. Soon I was out and about every night and i didnt stop until i got caught out knowing stuff i wasnt supposed to know and was accused of sneaking out at night and looking through people's windows. I then decided to move further afield and undertook a rigorous training regime to be able to explore miles from my home town I flew out to the offshore islands near my town and spent nights investigting them (even 60 years later i have never visited them in the flesh) After more than a year I could fly around the world and after more time even out into space and around the solar system.

But ive never had any sleep paralysis and Ive never really done meditaion or anything like that. I taught myself all this by practice and experimentation and thinking about it back in the nineteen fifties Once asleep i could take control of my subconscious mind with my consciousmind and create entire realms to occupy. For me OBEing was a smoth and a tfirst unnoticed transition from controlled and directed lucid dreaming. I just jumped into my dream consciousness and directed it wherever I wanted to go. I could do the same to create any dream scape scenario or characters or story I wanted to, so it was only when I found that I was visiting real people and places, that i worked out that this was something different. It was decades later before I found a name for it.

Ps my dreams are as full and real as living real life taste, touch, colour, smell etc. You cant distinguish a well constructed dreamscape from a waking experience unless you apply a number of reality checkers to do so. That act of application also feeds back and increases your ability to control and build your dreamscapes.

March 25, 2013

I have shortened your posts to the important parts

ANd yes, it has been recorded, including a number of russian government experiments in the latter half of last century.

Then provide the evidence to show that science has verified it. I am assuming you are using the word 'recorded' to mean they have recorded studies into it but that doesn't mean they proved anything. If it did then show us that.

It can be verified using scientific controls. YOU say science has not verified it. i do not know if that is true or not

So you are saying the Russians have not verified it as a scientific fact?

Anyway when I quickly look it up I find this in regards to obe and science.

"The accepted explanation for the OBE in the fields of cognitive science and psychology is that the OBE is a hallucinatory construct that arises from different psychological factors.^[7]^[8]^[9]^[10] The scientific community consider the OBE to be an experience from a mental state, like a dream or an altered state of consciousness without recourse to the paranormal"

Found here http://en.wikipedia....body_experience

as acurately as a military drone and a lot closer up but because it is hard, and rare to do, andn even rare to do this "on demand", it has little military or other application.

So in an obe(or remote viewing)you claim you can see things as accurately and as real as a military drone but it has little military application. I'm not sure how that works exactly. You'd think it would be a wonderful for spying.

Anyway this is what I found in regards to remote viewing.

" Scientific studies have been conducted; some earlier, less sophisticated experiments produced positive results but they had invalidating flaws,^[1] and none of the newer experiments had positive results when under properly controlled conditions.^[2]^[3]^[4]^[5]^[6] The scientific community rejects remote viewing due to the absence of an evidence base, the lack of a theory which would explain remote viewing, and the lack of experimental techniques which can provide reliably positive results.^[7] It is also considered a pseudoscience.^[8]^["

Found here... http://en.wikipedia..../Remote_viewing

So again all I read is fluff as if it's facts.

March 25, 2013

Question all, is`nt a true out of body experience is when you can turn around and see your body lying there frist.?

Typically. But basically an obe is when you are dreaming that you are seeing your body or have experienced the sensation(dream) of leaving the body. Many obe'rs use the WILD technique to induce an obe. The WILD technique stands for Wake Induced Lucid Dream. If you wish to have an out of body experience you simply have to use the WILD technique and then focus on your body as you fall asleep instead of focusing on the dreaming environment or creating one. This tricks your mind into thinking you are actually leaving the body(as if for real) when really you are just dreaming you are leaving the body.

So the world and your bedroom is a memory of what it is or a guess at what it is. So you might think you are seeing other people in your house but they are the minds guesses at where the person would be.

People will tell you that you are truly leaving the body and that your soul is leaving the body and walking around your real house but this has never been proven. (and considering how many people can obe you think it would've been by now).

This is why I've been asking for proof. Scientific proof.

So the logical and common sense explanation to OBE's are that they are dreams of leaving the body, not the soul actually leaving the body.

March 26, 2013

I have shortened your posts to the important parts

Then provide the evidence to show that science has verified it. I am assuming you are using the word 'recorded' to mean they have recorded studies into it but that doesn't mean they proved anything. If it did then show us that.

So you are saying the Russians have not verified it as a scientific fact?

Anyway when I quickly look it up I find this in regards to obe and science.

"The accepted explanation for the OBE in the fields of cognitive science and psychology is that the OBE is a hallucinatory construct that arises from different psychological factors.^[7]^[8]^[9]^[10] The scientific community consider the OBE to be an experience from a mental state, like a dream or an altered state of consciousness without recourse to the paranormal"

Found here http://en.wikipedia....body_experience

So in an obe(or remote viewing)you claim you can see things as accurately and as real as a military drone but it has little military application. I'm not sure how that works exactly. You'd think it would be a wonderful for spying.

Anyway this is what I found in regards to remote viewing.

" Scientific studies have been conducted; some earlier, less sophisticated experiments produced positive results but they had invalidating flaws,^[1] and none of the newer experiments had positive results when under properly controlled conditions.^[2]^[3]^[4]^[5]^[6] The scientific community rejects remote viewing due to the absence of an evidence base, the lack of a theory which would explain remote viewing, and the lack of experimental techniques which can provide reliably positive results.^[7] It is also considered a pseudoscience.^[8]^["

Found here... http://en.wikipedia..../Remote_viewing

So again all I read is fluff as if it's facts.

You are interpreting the scientific conclusions through your own biases. My point is that, because it cannot be (or very rarely) done on demand under laboratory conditions science as we use it CANNOT verify its existence (due to the parameters and nature of science)

One day we will learn how to as we have learned how to see into thought processes and memory storage in our brains.

It is the lack of abilty (in my experience,) to do this on demand which makes it unreliable for applications. But one can see things and even go inside installations and read material .One can look under coverings and inside locked objects. If this could be done on demand then it would be very useful. I dont know how many humans have this abilty but i have read of several around the world who were able to demonstrate these skills. It only has to be demonstrated ONCE convincingly, under controlled conditions, to know that it is humanly possible. After that science can work out how to erefine the ability and use it.

Science IS working on telepathy in this regard, with considerable success. Remote viewing is only a more extensive form of telepathy.

It doesnt worry me what you believe. I can understand your disbelief but you are wrong. One convincing and controlled personall experience would teach you the truth. I have dozens of such experiences which can be verified as accurate, using normal scientific controls.

March 27, 2013

You are interpreting the scientific conclusions through your own biases. My point is that, because it cannot be (or very rarely) done on demand under laboratory conditions science as we use it CANNOT verify its existence (due to the parameters and nature of science)

One day we will learn how to as we have learned how to see into thought processes and memory storage in our brains.

I'm using common sense and experience(it just happens science agrees with it). And you are assuming that "one day we will learn how to" based on your own bias. So as you have said science has not verified it. And why do you think not one person in the world, out of all the people that claim skills with obe haven't been able to.. That in itself should make people really question it.

It doesnt worry me what you believe. I can understand your disbelief but you are wrong. One convincing and controlled personall experience would teach you the truth. I have dozens of such experiences which can be verified as accurate, using normal scientific controls.

You mean I am wrong because I wont accept your personal(bias)experiences/beliefs? I've had convincing experiences too but I still cant claim the spirit is actually leaving the body. Perhaps certain unexplained things are more to do with telepathy(I don't know). But I cant say obes(spirit leaving the body)is a fact and no one can even going by personal experiences. So we are all entitled to our opinions but not our own facts(I know that's very cliché).

And looking closer at your 'verified' obe experiences.

To sum up tha twhich can be indpendently and objectively verified can be calimed as an OBE That which can not be so verified cannot

Now I'm taking this as meaning independently verified by someone else. That's correct yes?

Which means I'm not sure how you independently verified some of your own 'obe' experiences. Take this for example.

My first obe "world tour" which lasted nearly 10 hours and followed the sun around my line of latitude, took over a year of training planning, disciplining my mind etc, in preparation for it. It is not something accesible to everyone unless they are prepared and interested enough to make a similar commitment and sustain it. And first you must have control of your dreams and perfect memory/ recall of them, so that you can "step into your consciousness" and extend it at will and follow landmarks or other means to reach a destination.

For me it is a lot like flying a hangglider a hundred meters or so above the earth, and requires physical landforms and way points to reach a required destination. You see what is physically below you as you travel, as well as when you reach your destination. You can soar up higher to get a better/wider view but that means you lose detail of the landmarks

So this makes me question for starters how you got this all independently verified and it makes me question what you meant exactly by "planning" and the things that I have underlined. If you are using landmarks from planning you cannot use landmarks as a way to objectively verify the experience because the landmarks would be a memory. But that aside how could you get travelling to another country independently verified?

You also said..

Today i can verify instantly via google earth and other sources if what i see and encounter in a OBE has a real and accurate counterpart in real life.. If it does not, I do not count it as an obe but as a controlled lucid dream.

Which means you might be able to use google maps(to verify for yourself) but are they independently verified by someone else? Considering you have said "That which can be independently verified and objectively verified can be claimed as an OBE"

So it seems you are saying you can obe to a place and if its the same as google earth shows then its a verified experience. But I wouldn't count that as being independently verified. So all these 'obes' you are claiming have been verified don't appear to even fall under what you consider a way to test a true obe.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Kazahel

March 27, 2013

I'm using common sense and experience(it just happens science agrees with it). And you are assuming that "one day we will learn how to" based on your own bias. So as you have said science has not verified it. And why do you think not one person in the world, out of all the people that claim skills with obe haven't been able to.. That in itself should make people really question it.

You mean I am wrong because I wont accept your personal(bias)experiences/beliefs? I've had convincing experiences too but I still cant claim the spirit is actually leaving the body. Perhaps certain unexplained things are more to do with telepathy(I don't know). But I cant say obes(spirit leaving the body)is a fact and no one can even going by personal experiences. So we are all entitled to our opinions but not our own facts(I know that's very cliché).

And looking closer at your 'verified' obe experiences.

Now I'm taking this as meaning independently verified by someone else. That's correct yes?

Which means I'm not sure how you independently verified some of your own 'obe' experiences. Take this for example.

So this makes me question for starters how you got this all independently verified and it makes me question what you meant exactly by "planning" and the things that I have underlined. If you are using landmarks from planning you cannot use landmarks as a way to objectively verify the experience because the landmarks would be a memory. But that aside how could you get travelling to another country independently verified?

You also said..

Which means you might be able to use google maps(to verify for yourself) but are they independently verified by someone else? Considering you have said "That which can be independently verified and objectively verified can be claimed as an OBE"

So it seems you are saying you can obe to a place and if its the same as google earth shows then its a verified experience. But I wouldn't count that as being independently verified. So all these 'obes' you are claiming have been verified don't appear to even fall under what you consider a way to test a true obe.

To give one simple example. one day at schol i heard my senior students (17-18 years of age) talking aobut having a camp out that night. (friday) I said i would obe over to where they were camping and record three things. What each one of them was wearing wha t each one of them was drinking, and what they were talking about.

I would seal this in an envelope as soon as i recorded it on waking. I asked each of themto do the same thing colectively and individually during or after the bushie.

Next monday at school we opened the envelopes and compared notes. I had the clothes and the drinks absolutelycorrect for all of them( about a dozen young blokes) I also had the conversations almost verbatim but this was harder to be certain of because, by the time I was there it was after midnight and they were very drunk, and while I could accurately record everything they were talking about they were more vague in their own written descriptions.

Still, there were enough specific correlations to be certain. Now, I had no idea wha tthe boys would be wearing or drinking and only a vague general idea of what they might talk about. It is statistically impossible for me to have known and described precisely their clothing, drinks, and specific parts of their conversation from over 20 kilometres away. I could also, in addition, describe their vehicles and where they were parked, swags used, location of campfires, what they were cooking on and eating; but i hadnt asked them to record this and so could only verbally confirm it whch is not as accurate as indpendently sealed envelopes with the details written inside each.

Thats the sort of example i am talking about It is not something tha tcan be used to convince you but it is evidence of a scientific nature which is quite adequate for me to know i was succesful in flying above that camp, watching the boys, and recording exactly what it looked and sounded like. I have many other similar examples which demonstrate clealry the nature of such experiences and which canot be explained (given their accuracy) in any other way. The furthest invloved an OBE from australia to a small farm house outside a town in canada. I was able to give detailed descritions and knowledge of the house, surrounds, and contents of an old barn, known (in Australia) ONLY to the canadian exchange student in my home group, whose home it was, and who verified all the details. I had oranised with her to obe to her home and then to describe in as much detai all I could What eally stuned her was my sdescriton of a beautiful old car i saw under a tarpaulin in the old barn Turned out it was a fifties cadillac her father had bought for her as a graduation present And which they were going to restore on her return NO ONE in Australia knew anyhting about this gift or its presence in the barn I alsodescribed this old lean to barn with log timber walls and timber shakes /tiles on the roof, as well as the exact description of her house and the trees etc in her yard as we;l as the surrounding natural vegetation, road systems etc. (this was before the internet was invented.). She was basically speechless.

The only thing i had ot go on was the basic location of the nearby town and the fact it was part of a rail network. I used the rail system to locate the town by flying above it, and then flew the few miles out to her farm.

I understand your reluctance to believe and the reasons for it but that is all irrelevant. Obeing is a verifiable physical ability of humanity. Reasoned thus. I am human. I can do it and have it clearly objectively and indendenlty verified. Thus anyone should have the potential to do it also. There is nothing intrinsically special about me, apart from the fact that I am a bit more intelligent than the average, started reading when i was two developed an eidetic memory and have been working onmy own intelligence learning knowledge and abilities for 60 years. On the other hand I am a little colour blind, tone deaf, and unable to consciously visualise even simple objects. But I fall well within the range of human norms.

Ps it is not in my opinion "your spirit leaving your body " it is your own consciousness projecting out and linking with the consciousnesses of other humans, AND linking into the universal consciousness which contains the sum total of all consciousnesses past and present. You can do the same thing while conscious as forms of mind reading clair voyance and jus tseeing or knowing things via other consciousnesses. There is nothing mystical or supernatural about it. It is a property of humanity like seeing and hearing and it connects you to the greater reality around you just as all other senses do. I am inclined to this view because i have lived with the abilty since birth and have had to learn to use it, as we learn to use sight touch and hearing etc.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Mr Walker

March 27, 2013

Ok so you didn't actually get independent verification for that obe world tour you planned out before. And you don't class anything as an obe experience unless it has an independent witness to verify it.

In the example you give with the boys from your class. It is an interesting story but most of this can actually be guessed(or subconsciously known). Guessing what the locals drink would not be too difficult(especially as most kids litter and drink the same stuff and brag about what they drink and how much etc(and their vehicles etc)), most kids also pick a favourite beer or spirit and stick with their favorites. So if you had been their teacher its fair to say you could've heard what they had been drinking at other times, in the same way you over heard of them talking about having a camp out in the first place. So this can be held in the subconscious.

Same with what they were wearing. Most of my friends back when I was a kid drinking out in the bush wore the same things. We didn't dress fancy. It basically consisted of black jeans, black desert boots(aka db's), black shirts and flannos. This info could also easily be known because back then schools didn't have to wear uniforms. So if it was like my old high school you got to know what other people wore. And depending on town size(you've said you lived in a smaller town?) it wouldn't be hard to know that either.

So I wouldn't say it was statistically impossible. The mind is a very powerful thing, you'd be surprised what the subconscious remembers. And you can call it evidence of a scientific nature but it doesn't really count as independent evidence because of the relationship between you and the young boys. The same can pretty much be said with the Canadian story. The car part is interesting but unless we know exactly what directions she gave you we cant tell if its a memory generated experience.

Basically Mr Walker you have given us some examples and considering you are only one of many many many people who claim to be able to do similar things(I mean we have a few on just this site alone), don't you think it would've been proven by now.As you said a simple test would prove it but no one has done that yet. If they did they would be at least a million dollars richer from Randi alone and they would go into the history books.

Obeing is a verifiable physical ability of humanity. Reasoned thus. I am human. I can do it and have it clearly objectively and indendenlty verified. Thus anyone should have the potential to do it also.

I believe in out of body experiences.. but I believe they are out of body dreaming.

And I don't know if I would class it as being independently verified when you are using your own students. I mean whos to say the Canadian girl wasn't just agreeing with you to make the teacher happy. So you have to trust what she is saying in the first place which means imo it isn't really independent. You potentially have a student who could be wanting to simply please the teacher by saying they were correct. I cant word it well but you understand what I mean. Sometimes people would rather just go along with someone than make them feel awkward. So I think that must be taken into account.

Anyway I'm glad to read that you believe its only a true obe if its independently verified.

But I think 'independent' should mean not friends, family or students to be honest. These people are too close to the ober to really class them as being independent.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Kazahel

March 27, 2013

Ok so you didn't actually get independent verification for that obe world tour you planned out before. And you don't class anything as an obe experience unless it has an independent witness to verify it.

In the example you give with the boys from your class. It is an interesting story but most of this can actually be guessed(or subconsciously known). Guessing what the locals drink would not be too difficult(especially as most kids litter and drink the same stuff and brag about what they drink and how much etc(and their vehicles etc)), most kids also pick a favourite beer or spirit and stick with their favorites. So if you had been their teacher its fair to say you could've heard what they had been drinking at other times, in the same way you over heard of them talking about having a camp out in the first place. So this can be held in the subconscious.

Same with what they were wearing. Most of my friends back when I was a kid drinking out in the bush wore the same things. We didn't dress fancy. It basically consisted of black jeans, black desert boots(aka db's), black shirts and flannos. This info could also easily be known because back then schools didn't have to wear uniforms. So if it was like my old high school you got to know what other people wore. And depending on town size(you've said you lived in a smaller town?) it wouldn't be hard to know that either.

So I wouldn't say it was statistically impossible. The mind is a very powerful thing, you'd be surprised what the subconscious remembers. And you can call it evidence of a scientific nature but it doesn't really count as independent evidence because of the relationship between you and the young boys. The same can pretty much be said with the Canadian story. The car part is interesting but unless we know exactly what directions she gave you we cant tell if its a memory generated experience.

Basically Mr Walker you have given us some examples and considering you are only one of many many many people who claim to be able to do similar things(I mean we have a few on just this site alone), don't you think it would've been proven by now.As you said a simple test would prove it but no one has done that yet. If they did they would be at least a million dollars richer from Randi alone and they would go into the history books.

I believe in out of body experiences.. but I believe they are out of body dreaming.

And I don't know if I would class it as being independently verified when you are using your own students. I mean whos to say the Canadian girl wasn't just agreeing with you to make the teacher happy. So you have to trust what she is saying in the first place which means imo it isn't really independent. You potentially have a student who could be wanting to simply please the teacher by saying they were correct. I cant word it well but you understand what I mean. Sometimes people would rather just go along with someone than make them feel awkward. So I think that must be taken into account.

Anyway I'm glad to read that you believe its only a true obe if its independently verified.

But I think 'independent' should mean not friends, family or students to be honest. These people are too close to the ober to really class them as being independent.

You believe as you like, but if you can accept that I can precisely describe what 12 different males are wearing, and what each is drinking, from my bed while asleep 20 kilometres away from them, plus all the other details I mentioned merely by coincidence /guessing etc., then I think it is you who is having trouble accepting reality.

The statistical probability of such a thing is far less likely than that it was simply an extension of my consciousness. This is particularly so when it is only one of many such experiences verified via witnesses or investigation.

Whethr you accept my word for it or not, I know that there is no way i could have, or should have, been able to know those details And the case of the cadillac is even more striking. It was impossible for me to have known about that car, under the tarpaulin in a barn half a world away, yet I described it in detail, from the colours the upholstery through to the chrome detailing etc. I didnt know what make and model of car it was because I am not that familiar with american cars from the fifties, but I could describe it in precise and correct detail. The girl (about 17) was simply shocked. She went into detail about the car; how her dad had purchased it as her graduation present form her high school, and how they were going to work together on it to restore it after her year in australia No she had no reason to lie or make up a story and few people could think that fast on their feet; but i agree, if you absolutely refuse ot believe something is possible, you can and will always find excuses and justifications to validate that disbelief.

And i actually did get "indpendent verification" for my 'world tour" but it took time. As a part of it i flew over easter island and took a good look at the staues there. Many years later I saw a news piece about them. I was disappointed to see that the statues looked quite different in real life to what I had seen inmy OBE.

There were a lot more standing and they all had funny bits on their head.s This was different from my images of them. Then at the end of the newsreel, it explained that backin the fifties no one knew that these statues were meant to have hats on them. In the time betwen when I visited them and when the newsreel was filmed not only had many of the staues been righted and restored but their hats, which had ben lying around the site had been replaced on their heads. When i visited the site it would have looked just as I saw it with far less statues and no hats on the top of them.

Ps, and very sincerely, If i was asked to prove this by experimentation for a million dollars, I wouldnt. i would not even own up to this in public, except with people who know me well and can trust me. My own experience is tha this is not always a positive ability. I have lost friends, had people physically run away from me, been cursed and abused, and even had the police called in as a young teenager, when I have shared convincing evidences of things i have encountered during Obes.

When you know things you can not and should not know about people, and like you they disbelieve in obeing, they believ other things about you. This is very serious as /for a teenager . Less so as a well respected adult, but still not something I am comfortable with everyone in my real life knowing. My mother had a similar ability, which my father knew about, but I didnt find out about until i was over forty, because she never really talked about it, but just made use of it.

My work colleagues/ fellow teachers enjoy my ability to find lost objects, but are really quite concerned at the thought that I might intrude, even accidentally, into their homes or social events while I am home sleeping. In general I would never do that deliberately, anymore than I would enter another person's home uninvited physically, but sometimes it does happen before I have my subconscious completely under my conscious mind's control.

I once wandered into a female coleagues bedroom during what i thought was a lucid dream, and noticed she was wearing some very distinctive male boxer shorts to bed. Knowing her well for years I risked asking her why she was wearing these (explaining how i ha d "dreamed" of her wearing them.)

She explained that her partner was away fishing in the Northern Territory for a few months and she was wearing his boxer shorts to feel closer to him And no, I had no idea her partner wore boxer shorts, let alone the distinctive motif on them. I've never been to her house in physical form.

She still tells this story at staff shows and explains how she now always checks at night to see if she can detect some form of psychic intrusion before going to bed. She took it with good humour but was amazed that I could describe exactly what she was wearing to bed on that night, from a dream. I did then explain about obeing and how sometimes i am not sure, until i can verify, whether some thing is imagination or real. Verification comes by finding that what you have observed, exactly and precisely correlates with the reality of the object or person being observed, when there is no physical way you could have otherwise known.

I take a lot of your points into consideration. They seem reasonable until you look at the actual background. For example i do not drink and have not for over 40 years. I do not attend school or private functions where alcohol is served This is a private health and ethical decision and I dont expect others to be non drinkers, but it means I haven't got a clue what people drink and wouldn't know what beers or wines were even sold or available today. Also at my age, and given my old world conservatism, I do not have the sort of relationship with teenagers where they would normally discuss their drinking habits with me. This was a specific experimental occasion. Even so, it was embarassing, because a lot of their conversation got very personal and specific about people and especially girls, as they got drunker, and I had to censor a lot of it We agreed that I wouldn't talk to anyone about their conversations, if they didnt tell anyone about how i had observed them from above.

And our students do wear uniforms. While I might see them very rarely in casual clothes especaily more formal clothing, there is no way I could know or predict what outfit each might wear on any given night, but I agree that all of these points require conscious consideration in seeking other solutions or explanations.

Independent only requires another separate mind and set of senses for observation, to establish if your own observations are objectively accurate, and not confined to your own mind alone.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Mr Walker

March 27, 2013