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Still Waters

Retired Lab Chimps See The Sky For First Time

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A National Institute of Health report recently recommended retiring most government lab chimps. So what's next for them? Well, over the next year or so more than 100 will go to Chimp Haven, a sanctuary for the animals in Keithville, Louisiana.

This footage shows some of the animals arriving, and seeing the sky, for the first time. Others are shown getting used to real, natural ground.

http://www.popsci.co...irst-time-video

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We are truly the worst species on this planet... Yet we have it in us to be the best species on this planet. Watching this video shows us what we need to be doing and what we should not be doing.

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We are truly the worst species on this planet... Yet we have it in us to be the best species on this planet. Watching this video shows us what we need to be doing and what we should not be doing.

Well spoken.

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I couldn't have said it better, Coffey. We could do much better for our kindred.

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I couldn't have said it better, Coffey. We could do much better for our kindred.

Definitely, completely agree and thanks.

Well spoken.

Thank you.

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I nearly cried watching that.

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Posted (edited)

This is reaally upseting it makes my blood boil when they do this stuff to these monkeys and apes and other animals.they should use inmates that killed for these lab rats not an ape not a monkey just a lowlife

I cant watch it

Edited by coolguy
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"The inhumanity of science concerns me, as when I was tempted to kill a rare snake that I may ascertain its species. I feel that this is not the means of acquiring true knowledge."

-- Henry David Thoreau, Journal (1854)

"Atrocities are not less atrocities when they occur in laboratories and are called medical research."

-- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)

"Whenever people say, 'We mustn't be sentimental,' you can take it they are about to do something cruel. And if they add, 'We must be realistic,' they mean they are going to make money out of it."

-- Brigid Brophy (1929 - 1995)

"I abhor vivisection'. I know of no achievement through vivisection, no scientific discovery that could not have been obtained without such barbarism and cruelty."

-- Charles W. Mayo, MD (1961), son of the co-founder of the Mayo Clinic.

Ask the experimenters why they experiment on animals, and the answer is 'Because the animals are like us.' Ask the experimenters why it is morally OK to experiment on animals, and the answer is: 'Because the animals are not like us.' Animal experimentation rests on a logical contradiction."

-- Professor Charles R. Magel (1980)

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I nearly cried watching that.

I did. Especially when the chimps looked up at the sky, that part got to me the most.

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Yes it is true that some of what is done in the name of science can be barbaric and cruel. However without it we would not be at the level of scientific and medical advancement that we are. So you have to ask yourself is the cost worth the price? Would you really be so fast to cast judgement on the human race or animal testing if you had an ailing wife, child, father, or other family member that could be cured or saved from death from a procedure derived from aminal research? Thats the real question. It's easy to say oh we are so bad and cruel and we shouldnt do this, it is easy to say and makes us feel good and look good to others. But if we get sick we go to the doctor or hospital and don't think twice about the medical treatments available to us to make us better. I'm not saying I like animal testing but I do believe it has benifits and it is a necessary evil.

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Posted (edited)

I'm not saying I like animal testing but I do believe it has benifits and it is a necessary evil.

What gives us the moral right to perform these experiments on non-consenting animals?

Edited by redhen
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What gives us the moral right to perform these experiments on non-consenting animals?

Nothing does didn't say anything about have the right to do it. I just said the overall benefits outwieght the costs (moral or otherwise) of animal testing. Just my opinion.

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Nothing does didn't say anything about have the right to do it. I just said the overall benefits outwieght the costs (moral or otherwise) of animal testing. Just my opinion.

That's the greater good argument. But it implies you can measure and analyze the amount of pain, suffering and death, and weigh that in a scale opposite the "good". It's arbitrary and dubious at best.

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What gives us the moral right to perform these experiments on non-consenting animals?

Because we are the most intelligent and most advanced species. That is what gives us the right. Your argument is a logical fallacy. Other animals kill and destroy other animals all the time for food. Tremendous suffering is caused merely in the quest to sustain one's own life. We also do this, but we are advanced enough that we can do it in a much less painful way. We do not need to tear apart an animal with our teeth and let it bleed to death to get our food. We shoot it, spear it, cut its throat- a much less painful way to die by any measure.

So you are stating that animals including us, have the right to kill other animals for food- merely to sustain our own life, but we do not have the right to kill, cause suffering to other animals for- the same reason- to sustain our own life and well being using knowledge gained from animal research? Not only do we benefit from such research, but the animals (not the ones being experimented on) species also benefit by the increased knowledge that we have.

Sure we can be a horrible species, killing and destroying, but do not degrade us for our curiosity, for our reach to make life better. This includes research on animals. And no, if you study medical history you will find that no, we would not know nearly as much as we know now if it were not for the research done on animals. The world is a tough place, we are all fighting for survival, the world is not fair. Stop living in fantasy land and wake up.

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Yes it is true that some of what is done in the name of science can be barbaric and cruel. However without it we would not be at the level of scientific and medical advancement that we are. So you have to ask yourself is the cost worth the price? Would you really be so fast to cast judgement on the human race or animal testing if you had an ailing wife, child, father, or other family member that could be cured or saved from death from a procedure derived from aminal research? Thats the real question. It's easy to say oh we are so bad and cruel and we shouldnt do this, it is easy to say and makes us feel good and look good to others. But if we get sick we go to the doctor or hospital and don't think twice about the medical treatments available to us to make us better. I'm not saying I like animal testing but I do believe it has benifits and it is a necessary evil.

It is awful, and I wish we didn't have to do it.

But how many animal rights activists would actually forego all medical treatment that was developed through animal testing? Not many is my guess.

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Posted (edited)

Because we are the most intelligent and most advanced species. That is what gives us the right.

So Might makes right ? Thus, when a more intelligent and advanced species lands on Earth and starts harvesting humans for food and medical experiments, they will have the moral right to do so.

Your argument is a logical fallacy.

Actually, I didn't make any argument. I asked a question.

Other animals kill and destroy other animals all the time for food. Tremendous suffering is caused merely in the quest to sustain one's own life. We also do this, but we are advanced enough that we can do it in a much less painful way. We do not need to tear apart an animal with our teeth and let it bleed to death to get our food. We shoot it, spear it, cut its throat- a much less painful way to die by any measure.

Yes, obligate carnivores require meat to survive. Humans are not obligate carnivores, we do not need to consume animals.

So you are stating that animals including us, have the right to kill other animals for food- merely to sustain our own life, but we do not have the right to kill, cause suffering to other animals for- the same reason- to sustain our own life and well being using knowledge gained from animal research? Not only do we benefit from such research, but the animals (not the ones being experimented on) species also benefit by the increased knowledge that we have.

Ah yes, it's for the sake of the animals, how noble. Just like we have to cull wild animals for their benefit. What a crock.

Sure we can be a horrible species, killing and destroying, but do not degrade us for our curiosity, for our reach to make life better. This includes research on animals.

Little boys like to pull off the wings of insects and torture them, out of curiosity, much like Renee Descartes and other vivisectionists. Yes we certainly are a curious species.

And no, if you study medical history you will find that no, we would not know nearly as much as we know now if it were not for the research done on animals.

Perhaps if earlier humans did not adhere to superstitious beliefs (like religion) they would have been able to experiment on human bodies.

The world is a tough place, we are all fighting for survival, the world is not fair. Stop living in fantasy land and wake up.

Humans are fighting for survival? Really? Are humans on any endangered species list? None that I know of, quite the contrary.

"The effect of Cartesianism was to devastate earlier Christian traditions of kindness to animals. Descartes’s followers, the Port Royalists, ‘kicked about their dogs and dissected their cats without mercy, laughing at any compassion for them, and calling their screams the noise of breaking machinery’." Linzey, A (2004) The Powers That Be: Mechanisms that Prevent us Recognising Animal Sentience.

Edited by redhen

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So Might makes right ? Thus, when a more intelligent and advanced species lands on Earth and starts harvesting humans for food and medical experiments, they will have the moral right to do so.

No, might does not make right. That is not what I mean. I firmly believe that as self-aware beings we have a moral obligation to understand nature, and to understand ourselves. If we fail to do this, then it is only a matter of time before nature (plagues, disease, asteroid impact, etc.) takes us out. If we fail to understand our surroundings and our environment, including the environment within ourselves, then we are failing to use our intellect and are failing all of life on earth. So far as we know, we are the most intelligent and most capable beings that earthly life has thus far evolved. We have the possible capacity to understand nature, and to understand the universe. We alone of all species have the possibility of leaving earth one day and surviving beyond the eventual destruction of the earth. Therefore we may just be the eventual saviors of all life on earth (as ironic as that may seem because we are always depicted as wiping out life on earth). In fact, we are the best hope so far for the survival of earthly life after the inevitable destruction of the earth. But in order to colonize the stars, we will need vast knowledge that we only have begun to compile in the last 500 years or so (arguably) about the universe, and our own health if we are to survive in space. We have made mistakes, we have caused unnecessary suffering, but we must push onward. Using the knowledge we obtained in the past we hopefully will be able to find ways to gain knowledge without causing suffering to other beings here on earth. This should be a primary goal of ours. But we must also recognize that if not for animal experimentation in the past, we would not be where we are today, and we may never have learned some of the things we have learned that are necessary for our survival. When I say survival, I mean long -term, billions of years from now survival. I mean our survival as a life-form past the eventual destruction of the earth. We live by the grace of mother nature who could wipe us out in an instant with an asteroid strike. We do not know how much time we have. We must act and learn as much as quickly as we can- or suffer the consequences.

Actually, I didn't make any argument. I asked a question.

Good point. Sorry, I was speaking to those who are absolutely against animal testing for any reasons whatsoever.

Yes, obligate carnivores require meat to survive. Humans are not obligate carnivores, we do not need to consume animals.

Prevailing theories suggest that we only grew brains as large as we have, and thus gained our intelligence, because we ate meat, and because we cooked it-gaining more nutrition from it. We are omnivores, there is no disputing that. Perhaps one day, because of research, lots of animal research included, we will be able to grow tasty meat in a lab and not ever have to kill other creatures to harvest it. I hope that day is coming soon.

Ah yes, it's for the sake of the animals, how noble. Just like we have to cull wild animals for their benefit. What a crock.

It is for the sake of all life on earth. Did we evolve to create machinery and to question everything and desire to understand nature just because? Just so that we can live like the tribes of old, hunting and gathering until our eventual and certain demise? There is a lot to debate here. I am not advocating the unnecessary suffering of animals. But nature provides MANY more means to cause suffering than we do.

Little boys like to pull off the wings of insects and torture them, out of curiosity, much like Renee Descartes and other vivisectionists. Yes we certainly are a curious species.

What is your point? Are you trying to make little boys seem evil for what they do? Are you suggesting insects have sentience? We are a curious species. Are you denying your own innate curiosity? Are you denying that which makes you human and degrading yourself to the level of an animal? Renee Descartes and the other vivisectionists did terrible things to animals certainly. Things that we would never allow today. We have learned from that, we are a young species still trying to understand our world and our universe. But I think that the atrocities committed against other humans is ever more despicable. We have always KNOWN that other humans are sentient like us. It may be easy to pretend an animal is not, but to murder and torture other humans is an atrocity that requires evil, not just ignorance.

Perhaps if earlier humans did not adhere to superstitious beliefs (like religion) they would have been able to experiment on human bodies.

Indeed. And in fact experiments HAVE been done on humans, horrible experiments. Just look up some of what the NAZI's did to the jews in WW2 for medical experimentation. You think what we do to animals today is bad? We have come a LONG way, but we still have a long way to go admittedly. And it all depends on the belief. Just look at what was done in the name of Christianity during the crusades? Look at what the Romans did to their conquered enemies! It goes both ways.

Humans are fighting for survival? Really? Are humans on any endangered species list? None that I know of, quite the contrary.

We are fighting for survival, we always have been. You may not realize it but we currently are fighting battles that you may not know anything about. We constantly are battling disease, we only recently became aware of the imminent threat of asteroids. 99.9% of all species that have ever existed on earth have gone extinct. 60 million years ago the dinosaurs were the dominant type of animal. Almost all of them (except for the ones that evolved into birds) went extinct. Yet you fail to realize this? Things can change in the blink of an eye. Our very existence on this world, in this universe, is perilous. We have evolved to the point of being able to understand much, we MUST use this capacity to understand as much as we can, as quickly as we can, because nobody knows when a world altering event could occur that would quickly wipe us, and most everything else off the face of the planet. Rendering this debate about animal experimentation rather pointless don't you think?

"The effect of Cartesianism was to devastate earlier Christian traditions of kindness to animals. Descartes’s followers, the Port Royalists, ‘kicked about their dogs and dissected their cats without mercy, laughing at any compassion for them, and calling their screams the noise of breaking machinery’." Linzey, A (2004) The Powers That Be: Mechanisms that Prevent us Recognising Animal Sentience.

Yes, sick things were done in the past to animals. Just like sick things were done to humans in the past. Sick things are being done right now, somewhere in the world. We must learn from the past, learn from our mistakes, and keep moving forward through this perilous journey of life. Buddhists also have a tradition of kindness to animals, so do Hindu's so do many cultures and religions. We need to keep this in mind, and as we learn more and better ways to learn and understand nature, we can phase out animal experimentation. Hopefully one day we can eliminate it altogether. Animal experimentation of today is much more humane (although admittedly not very humane yet) but more more humane than in the past. We are learning, we are becoming better. Hopefully we will stay on this path. But we cannot stop animal experimentation altogether. We need to test new drugs on animals before we give them to humans, new cancer treatments, understanding genetics. This is absolutely imperative. And yes I have put my money where my mouth is. I volunteered to be a guinea pig for science twice. The drugs were already tested and found to be safe for animals, so I volunteered to be next for testing. Thank God for science, it is the only thing that can save us from ourselves. Without it, we are doomed no matter what, unless aliens magically appear and save us all before some cataclysm, but you know, I would not count on it. I cannot begin to even thank the scientists and the animals that they used in the past enough. My father is alive today as a direct result of knowledge learned from animal testing. I am vaccinated safely from many horrible diseases courtesy of animals used in testing. Any future surgery I may have to get, or that my cute little kitty may have to get will be expertly executed because of knowledge learned from past animal testing.

You know? We should have a national holiday to honor the many poor animals that suffered and died in order for us to have this knowledge.

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Because we are the most intelligent and most advanced species. That is what gives us the right.

No....

That does not give us the right, what it gives us is RESPONSIBILITY.

It is our gift and we should use it as a gift. Most people are not worthy of this gift, we take it for granted. Using our senses and evolved state to sit and watch trash TV etc. If we really used our intelligence and advanced bodies etc to look after this planet and our fellow Earthlings... We would then become something special, right now we are an evolved and successful virus. A deadly killing machine that is hellbent on destroying this planet.

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You know? We should have a national holiday to honor the many poor animals that suffered and died in order for us to have this knowledge.

Yes, these animals never get any credit in published papers.

From Joel Marks (2011). On Due Recognition of Animals

"I would like to see future research accompanied by this disclaimer: "No animals were harmed by the during the production of this knowledge."

There is so much unnecessary "work" done. Marks lists a few examples of research data, most don't acknowledge any kind of moral debt to these animals, but sometimes a crack shows;

"A grisly set of experiments with rats showed that total sleep deprivation will cause death in 3-4 weeks." There's no free full copy of this paper in JAE, I have a hard copy.

Anyways, I think we agree more than we differ on this issue.

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What is the alternative?

At the moment there are no approved alternatives for the use of animals in pre-clinical studies of drugs (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Would anyone rather we just gave these new compounds to humans? Didn't think so.

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It just kills me that they've never seen the sky before. But i'm happy that they are free now and will be cared for.

If their expressions of wonder and amazement don't move you, you're probably a rock.

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No....

That does not give us the right, what it gives us is RESPONSIBILITY.

It is our gift and we should use it as a gift. Most people are not worthy of this gift, we take it for granted. Using our senses and evolved state to sit and watch trash TV etc. If we really used our intelligence and advanced bodies etc to look after this planet and our fellow Earthlings... We would then become something special, right now we are an evolved and successful virus. A deadly killing machine that is hellbent on destroying this planet.

Yes, the responsibility to understand as much as we can, to use our intellect to understand nature and ourselves. You are right it does not give us the right, now that I read your post I would reword what i said to read that we have the responsibility to conduct experimentation and testing to further our knowledge.

I agree that most people may not be worthy of the intellectual gift given to them, then again most people do not seem to have much intellectual capacity anyways :P. I disagree that we are a virus, we are not, that is ridiculous. We are mammals, similar to apes. We have conflicts, we are selfish. All animals are like this. The only difference is the technology and the tools that we have that allow us to transform the planet. No other animal has this ability. You compare us to viruses, as though you know of some higher alien or animal that has conquered their base animal desires and instincts. I do not know of any such higher creature. So I have nothing to compare us to. Whether we destroy this planet or nature eventually does, its going to happen one way or another given enough time.

And speak for yourself I do not sit around wasting my intellect watching trash TV. I read a lot about a lot of things. I hunger for knowledge. I am an engineer and I design things that are ultimately used to help further our understanding of the universe and ourselves.

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What is the alternative?

At the moment there are no approved alternatives for the use of animals in pre-clinical studies of drugs (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Would anyone rather we just gave these new compounds to humans? Didn't think so.

People volunteer all the time for non-approved drugs. A poster in this thread admitted to being a guinea pig. He's lucky. Just because a drug is safe for rabbits doesn't mean the same for humans.

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Posted (edited)

I do understand the need for research but geez that's just fu*king sad, at least he did get to see the sky I suspect many don't

Edited by ciriuslea

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People volunteer all the time for non-approved drugs. A poster in this thread admitted to being a guinea pig. He's lucky. Just because a drug is safe for rabbits doesn't mean the same for humans.

You have to test drugs on animals before they are allowed to be tested in humans. That's the way it is. Non approved doesn't mean not tested on animals, it means it hasn't got marketing authorisation. People volunteer for clinical trials, yes, but by that point the drugs have been tested on animals many times - they have to be to get to the clinical trials stage.

Toxicity tests on animals actually do give us a good idea of how a drug will behave in humans. Not perfect, but pretty good.

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