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AquilaChrysaetos

Where Did God Come From?

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Please forgive me for the brain strain, I'll try to keep this as simple as I can...

  • Logic tells us that in order for something to exist, it must have at least one verifiable property. Otherwise it is nothing. It does not exist.
  • We know for a fact that Nothingness exists. (Remember, nothingness is not a matter of time, since nothingness is the complete absence of time, space, matter, and energy; as well as all of the laws that govern the universe itself. A good way of thinking about it is, nothing is what rocks think about.)
  • However, Nothingness has one singularly exclusive property: It is infinate.
  • Therefore, ironically, even nothingnes itself is something.
  • What is that something? Because it has one lone property, that property in which it has is nothingness. (Ex. One lone quark from inside an atom has only one property: It is a quark. You cannot simplify it or give any further discription of what it is since it only has that property, therefore it simply is a quark.)
  • Therefore, infinty is nothingness. (Ex. I have one pencil, one paper, one desk, one chair; and yet all of these are singularly individual and seperate of one another. Collectively I would have a group of individual objects, each of which I just mentioned. However if I had zero pencils, zero papers, zero desks, zero chairs; and if I were to mention each object individually, I would collectively have the same thing: Nothing. However, the point is, there are an infinate number of possibilities for which to be nothing of. You could name me anything that is real or fantasy, big or small; unimaginably complex or unimaginably simple, in any order you like. If I have zero of it, all solutions remain the same, yet all possibilities remain open. Therefore there are an infinate number of possibilities, and yet there is nothing. Nothingness and infinity go hand in hand.)
  • Another way to describe infinity is everything, or every possibility. Therefore infinity can be taken to mean everything is possible.
  • Therefore, if everything is possible, then that must mean that infinate power, infinate wisdom, and infinate conscousness must be possible as well.
  • If nothingness possesses a property, then it is in fact, something. That something being everything. The term everything includes consciousness.
  • Therefore nothingness is conscious.
  • Since nothingness is also infinate, it must also possess infinate knowledge, wisdom, and power.
  • Therefore Nothing's consciousness possesses infinate knowledge, wisdom, and power.
  • In other words, Nothingness itself is what most of us would refer to as the typical depiction of a "Theistic God."
  • Due to many hard evidences supporting the Big Bang Theory, this theory states that the entire known universe (space, time, matter, and energy, as well as the perfectly fine-tuned intricate laws of physics that makes life possible) sprang into being literally out of nothing, with no apparent explanation at all.
  • Therefore simple logic and reasoning, coupled by several pieces of hard physiological evidences (Cosmological Argument, Teleological Argument / Anthropic Principle, Moral Argument), appear to strongly support not only the existance of a Theistic God, but of the Creation of the universe and divine design of life.

To me, the Theistic God is not only logical, but can be supported by evidence. Please keep in mind that it can't possibly be Polytheistic, because in order for that there must be individuality, and to be individual of another you must lack something the other has. Since God is infinate, he not only has everything, he is everything. This does not suggest Pantheism either, for despite the lack of time existance "before" the Big Bang, This God was not born out of or as a part of this physical universe, but was in fact never born at all, he simply was.

I don't have enough time or energy right now to go extensively into detail concerning each physiological argument (parenthesis in the last bullet) however I assure you they are quite compelling. Compelling enough for me at least to accept it as practically undeniable evidence. So hopefully this will settle the debate over "Where did God come from?"

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Where did god come from? Easy, someone's imagination.

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Please forgive me for the brain strain, I'll try to keep this as simple as I can...

  • Logic tells us that in order for something to exist, it must have at least one verifiable property. Otherwise it is nothing. It does not exist.
  • We know for a fact that Nothingness exists. (Remember, nothingness is not a matter of time, since nothingness is the complete absence of time, space, matter, and energy; as well as all of the laws that govern the universe itself. A good way of thinking about it is, nothing is what rocks think about.)
  • However, Nothingness has one singularly exclusive property: It is infinate.
  • Therefore, ironically, even nothingnes itself is something.
  • What is that something? Because it has one lone property, that property in which it has is nothingness. (Ex. One lone quark from inside an atom has only one property: It is a quark. You cannot simplify it or give any further discription of what it is since it only has that property, therefore it simply is a quark.)
  • Therefore, infinty is nothingness. (Ex. I have one pencil, one paper, one desk, one chair; and yet all of these are singularly individual and seperate of one another. Collectively I would have a group of individual objects, each of which I just mentioned. However if I had zero pencils, zero papers, zero desks, zero chairs; and if I were to mention each object individually, I would collectively have the same thing: Nothing. However, the point is, there are an infinate number of possibilities for which to be nothing of. You could name me anything that is real or fantasy, big or small; unimaginably complex or unimaginably simple, in any order you like. If I have zero of it, all solutions remain the same, yet all possibilities remain open. Therefore there are an infinate number of possibilities, and yet there is nothing. Nothingness and infinity go hand in hand.)
  • Another way to describe infinity is everything, or every possibility. Therefore infinity can be taken to mean everything is possible.
  • Therefore, if everything is possible, then that must mean that infinate power, infinate wisdom, and infinate conscousness must be possible as well.
  • If nothingness possesses a property, then it is in fact, something. That something being everything. The term everything includes consciousness.
  • Therefore nothingness is conscious.
  • Since nothingness is also infinate, it must also possess infinate knowledge, wisdom, and power.
  • Therefore Nothing's consciousness possesses infinate knowledge, wisdom, and power.
  • In other words, Nothingness itself is what most of us would refer to as the typical depiction of a "Theistic God."
  • Due to many hard evidences supporting the Big Bang Theory, this theory states that the entire known universe (space, time, matter, and energy, as well as the perfectly fine-tuned intricate laws of physics that makes life possible) sprang into being literally out of nothing, with no apparent explanation at all.
  • Therefore simple logic and reasoning, coupled by several pieces of hard physiological evidences (Cosmological Argument, Teleological Argument / Anthropic Principle, Moral Argument), appear to strongly support not only the existance of a Theistic God, but of the Creation of the universe and divine design of life.

To me, the Theistic God is not only logical, but can be supported by evidence. Please keep in mind that it can't possibly be Polytheistic, because in order for that there must be individuality, and to be individual of another you must lack something the other has. Since God is infinate, he not only has everything, he is everything. This does not suggest Pantheism either, for despite the lack of time existance "before" the Big Bang, This God was not born out of or as a part of this physical universe, but was in fact never born at all, he simply was.

I don't have enough time or energy right now to go extensively into detail concerning each physiological argument (parenthesis in the last bullet) however I assure you they are quite compelling. Compelling enough for me at least to accept it as practically undeniable evidence. So hopefully this will settle the debate over "Where did God come from?"

Hate to break your logic but, If you give nothingness a property, it then becomes something, so logic would say, nothingness cannot exsit for giving it a property makes it something.

Also, you make an assertion that infinity means everything. This is also not correct. Infinity means a continum or something without any limit. So you could say there is an infinite amount of possibilities, however you cannot say infinite means everything.

However, there is another flaw - there is only a finite amount of possibillities as a possibility is a ratio. and logicaly you cannot have 1:infinify ratio. It is logically impossiable.

Kind Regards,

Me :)

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Who knows.

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Infinity is the everything of one thing at a time, not the everything of everything," everything is possible" is in and of itself an impossibility. Nothing is only something in that it is devoid of anything,and Nothing can be infinite until it becomes something.Consciouseness can be infinite but it cannot be everything.In the beginning there was infinite nothingness that became something, and thats everything we know.

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"Even the God of Spring does not know from where the flowers come." I think this is a Zen or Taoist saying.

If there were a God, it probably wouldn't know its origin either. "I Am," it would say pompously. I guess it would figure that's all you need to know. That God may be hiding some relevant information, however.

We all know how devious and enigmatic Gods like to be. They seem to enjoy keeping their secrets to themselves. Makes them appear more mysterious than they may actually be, and it's always a good marketing strategy for them to keep their worshipers uninformed about such matters.

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There is no evidence that the big bang created the vacume. Therefore the potential for the vacuume to carry a signal ( time). This notion that time and space were created at the BB is misunderstood. The "space" between things in that if everything were created then it certainly was, but not the vaccume itself. Nor time. For there to be no time before time, this implies sequencing therefore time certainly has to exist for all time. Or rather time simply dosnt exist at all other than a recognition of change. We don't understand pre big bang conditions so we say "time as we know it" didn't exist. Despite popular belief this does not imply that there was not a before. My personal belief is that it all started with a rare quantum tunneling event that is fairly simple to understand. This also implies that somewhere else deep in the vaccume it is probably happening again.

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Well, I hope there is a God, else I'm in deep doo doo when I die, with no conciousness, no nothing.

I choose to believe in God, though I offer no "proof"

Eases my troubled mind, I guess.

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Posted (edited)

"Even the God of Spring does not know from where the flowers come." I think this is a Zen or Taoist saying.

If there were a God, it probably wouldn't know its origin either. "I Am," it would say pompously. I guess it would figure that's all you need to know. That God may be hiding some relevant information, however.

We all know how devious and enigmatic Gods like to be. They seem to enjoy keeping their secrets to themselves. Makes them appear more mysterious than they may actually be, and it's always a good marketing strategy for them to keep their worshipers uninformed about such matters.

Maybe "God" is not the creator of the universe, but it's ultimate outcome, maybe God is not hiding any relevent information or keeping secrets, but realizing and learning them through humanity as the nervous system of an ever evolving global brain developing self-consciousness just as humans evolved to, but on a grander scale.

"The universe may grow like a giant brain, according to a new computer simulation.

The results, published Nov. 16 in the journal Nature's Scientific Reports, suggest that some undiscovered, fundamental laws may govern the growth of systems large and small, from the electrical firing between brain cellsand growth of social networksicon1.png to the expansion of galaxies.

"Natural growth dynamics are the same for different real networks, like the Internet or the brain or social networks," said study co-author Dmitri Krioukov, a physicist at the Universityicon1.png of California San Diego.

The new study suggests a single fundamental law of nature may govern these networks, said physicist Kevin Bassler of the University of Houston, who was not involved in the study."

When the team compared the universe's history with growth of social networks and brain circuits, they found all the networks expanded in similar ways: They balanced links between similar nodes with ones that already had many connections. For instance, a cat lover surfing the Internet may visit mega-sites such as Google or Yahoo, but will also browse cat fancier websites or YouTube kitten videos. In the same way, neighboring brain cells like to connect, but neurons also link to such "Google brain cells" that are hooked up to loads of other brain cells.

The eerie similarity between networks large and small is unlikely to be a coincidence, Krioukov said.

"For a physicist it's an immediate signal that there is some missing understanding of how nature works," Krioukov said.

It's more likely that some unknown law governs the way networks grow and change, from the smallest brain cells to the growth of mega-galaxies, Krioukov said.

"This result suggests that maybe we should start looking for it," Krioukov told LiveScience.

http://www.nbcnews.c...e/#.UUGWt1ehyXm

Edited by ChloeB

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God as we have Him is a Jewish idea used to turn their local jealous tribal deity into someone more important, and they couldn't figure out where to stop magnifying Him and so didn't.

The original idea of deities comes from animist ideas that thinks, "I have a personality, so why shouldn't the universe be populated with things like me, hence rivers and mountains and animals and so on all have personalities, although obviously their personalities are a bit different, and sometimes dangerous."

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"Even the God of Spring does not know from where the flowers come." I think this is a Zen or Taoist saying.

If there were a God, it probably wouldn't know its origin either. "I Am," it would say pompously. I guess it would figure that's all you need to know. That God may be hiding some relevant information, however.

We all know how devious and enigmatic Gods like to be. They seem to enjoy keeping their secrets to themselves. Makes them appear more mysterious than they may actually be, and it's always a good marketing strategy for them to keep their worshipers uninformed about such matters.

Why would God say "I am" pompously. When did stating a fact in it's most simple form become an act of "pompousness"? And do we know God is devious and enigmatic? Or do we know that the "Gods made in mans image (mind) are given devious and enigmatic properties by the men who created them?

To know God is devious and enigmatic would require us to have a personal relationship with God and then come to that conclusion ...... otherwise we are just assuming for the sake of some convenience that what we don't understand about God is due to a deliberate act of deception on his part.

Also if they (or just God) are less mysterious than they/he appear/s to be, it follows they/he are/is regular or known - yet God is not a "known" entity, he is in fact a mystery. He will be less of a mystery to those who know something of him and more of a mystery to those who know little (but surmise much?). I fail to see how this constitutes a conscious act of trying to "appear more mysterious" on his part tbh - it remains possible and feasible that he just is a mystery to our current level of conscious awareness/intellect.

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I once read that God is a theory that begins at birth. Parents are Gods to babies. Then they spend the rest of their lives searching for and believing in a God or Gods.

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Hate to break your logic but, If you give nothingness a property, it then becomes something, so logic would say, nothingness cannot exsit for giving it a property makes it something.

Also, you make an assertion that infinity means everything. This is also not correct. Infinity means a continum or something without any limit. So you could say there is an infinite amount of possibilities, however you cannot say infinite means everything.

However, there is another flaw - there is only a finite amount of possibillities as a possibility is a ratio. and logicaly you cannot have 1:infinify ratio. It is logically impossiable.

Kind Regards,

Me :)

Actually you didn't break my logic, rather, you supported it. My point exactly is that nothingness doesn't exist. Only God does.

The reason why I say this means nothing is everything, is because based on my logic, due to nothingness possessing a property, it is something. Due to infinity meaning all possibilities, that something of which it is is everything.

As for the finite amount of possibilities argument, I happen to disagree. Things may be finite in this physical universe due to it's empirical laws, however outside the laws of this universe, everything does become possible. Therefore my original stance.

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Actually you didn't break my logic, rather, you supported it. My point exactly is that nothingness doesn't exist. Only God does.

The reason why I say this means nothing is everything, is because based on my logic, due to nothingness possessing a property, it is something. Due to infinity meaning all possibilities, that something of which it is is everything.

As for the finite amount of possibilities argument, I happen to disagree. Things may be finite in this physical universe due to it's empirical laws, however outside the laws of this universe, everything does become possible. Therefore my original stance.

Like black being a color?

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Like black being a color?

:huh: ... Not making the connection...

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Actually you didn't break my logic, rather, you supported it. My point exactly is that nothingness doesn't exist. Only God does.

The reason why I say this means nothing is everything, is because based on my logic, due to nothingness possessing a property, it is something. Due to infinity meaning all possibilities, that something of which it is is everything.

As for the finite amount of possibilities argument, I happen to disagree. Things may be finite in this physical universe due to it's empirical laws, however outside the laws of this universe, everything does become possible. Therefore my original stance.

You said, nothingness exsits for a fact. Something is not nothingness, so giving nothingness a property makes it something, therefore nolonger nothingness and therefore doesnt exist. So based on that, its a fact that nothingness doesnt exist. (as you say)

No infinty isnt all possibilities. Iv stated that infinity is something without a limit. So infinite possibilities YES, but infinity doesnt MEAN all possibilities.

Everything outside of this universe, will abid by the laws of its universe, making all possibilities again impossiable. But one could go further to say that there is an infinite amount of universes therefore all possibilities are catered for in each personal universe.

But going one step further, one could still agrue that all possibilities is still impossible because ALL represents a whole, and you cannot have a whole in infinty (as there is no limit)

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Posted (edited)

Everything is not possible, like Steve Martin said in the 70's " It's impossible to put a cadillac up you're nose, it's just impossible".

Edited by Royal

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You said, nothingness exsits for a fact. Something is not nothingness, so giving nothingness a property makes it something, therefore nolonger nothingness and therefore doesnt exist. So based on that, its a fact that nothingness doesnt exist. (as you say)

No infinty isnt all possibilities. Iv stated that infinity is something without a limit. So infinite possibilities YES, but infinity doesnt MEAN all possibilities.

Everything outside of this universe, will abid by the laws of its universe, making all possibilities again impossiable. But one could go further to say that there is an infinite amount of universes therefore all possibilities are catered for in each personal universe.

But going one step further, one could still agrue that all possibilities is still impossible because ALL represents a whole, and you cannot have a whole in infinty (as there is no limit)

You're assuming the outside of the universe (nothing) actually has laws, which it doesn't. Who said there are laws beyond this universe? Better yet that there are other universes like you suggest. Actually, who or what possible answer could you even give to where the laws of our own universe came from? There is no evidence or answers to any of that.

As for nothingness, it is a fact it exists, an it's incarnation is God. I might have to tweak it a little for clarification (tis a difficult subjuct to understand) however so far I'm quite convinced that my logic is sound. If not then please tell me otherwise, because I've yet to hear any real refute.

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Everything is not possible, like Steve Martin said in the 70's " It's impossible to put a cadillac up you're nose, it's just impossible".

In the laws of this universe, yes, it is impossible. As for an existance without laws, anything by definition becomes possible.

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Posted (edited)

You're assuming the outside of the universe (nothing) actually has laws, which it doesn't. Who said there are laws beyond this universe? Better yet that there are other universes like you suggest. Actually, who or what possible answer could you even give to where the laws of our own universe came from? There is no evidence or answers to any of that.

As for nothingness, it is a fact it exists, an it's incarnation is God. I might have to tweak it a little for clarification (tis a difficult subjuct to understand) however so far I'm quite convinced that my logic is sound. If not then please tell me otherwise, because I've yet to hear any real refute.

You are assume that there are no laws outside our universe. If you are going to start talking evidence as you say I lack, Please provide me evidence that there is no laws outside our own universe. Ill be waiting :)

We are both in the same boat, we are unable to provide the evidence that laws either exsit or don't exist outside our observable universe.

Logically, nothingness is the absent of everything correct?

Giving nothingness a something(as you say infinity), it THEN is something... NOT nothingness - if you cannot understand the paradox there then I am sorry, I cannot explain it more simple than that. But the logic is sound.

Lets look at it this way also

If nothingness exists just like you have mentioned and you say everything is possiable, then therefore NOTHING is possiable, as Nothing is a possibility. Another paradox.

Again, you cannot have infinte possiablilities as there are to many paradoxs to consider.

(However, I personally think there is more out there - but it has boundaries just as everything else - even god)

Kind Regards,

Edited by The Id3al Experience
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AquilaChryseatos, in an existence without laws we do not exist. And if we do not exist, God does not exist.

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:huh: ... Not making the connection...

Black is not a color, it is the absence of color.

Nothing is not something, it is the absence of something.

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God has always been. He is now and will always be.

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Maybe "God" is not the creator of the universe, but it's ultimate outcome, maybe God is not hiding any relevent information or keeping secrets, but realizing and learning them through humanity as the nervous system of an ever evolving global brain developing self-consciousness just as humans evolved to, but on a grander scale.

"The universe may grow like a giant brain, according to a new computer simulation.

The results, published Nov. 16 in the journal Nature's Scientific Reports, suggest that some undiscovered, fundamental laws may govern the growth of systems large and small, from the electrical firing between brain cellsand growth of social networksicon1.png to the expansion of galaxies.

"Natural growth dynamics are the same for different real networks, like the Internet or the brain or social networks," said study co-author Dmitri Krioukov, a physicist at the Universityicon1.png of California San Diego.

The new study suggests a single fundamental law of nature may govern these networks, said physicist Kevin Bassler of the University of Houston, who was not involved in the study."

When the team compared the universe's history with growth of social networks and brain circuits, they found all the networks expanded in similar ways: They balanced links between similar nodes with ones that already had many connections. For instance, a cat lover surfing the Internet may visit mega-sites such as Google or Yahoo, but will also browse cat fancier websites or YouTube kitten videos. In the same way, neighboring brain cells like to connect, but neurons also link to such "Google brain cells" that are hooked up to loads of other brain cells.

The eerie similarity between networks large and small is unlikely to be a coincidence, Krioukov said.

"For a physicist it's an immediate signal that there is some missing understanding of how nature works," Krioukov said.

It's more likely that some unknown law governs the way networks grow and change, from the smallest brain cells to the growth of mega-galaxies, Krioukov said.

"This result suggests that maybe we should start looking for it," Krioukov told LiveScience.

http://www.nbcnews.c...e/#.UUGWt1ehyXm

Hahahaha it's funny chloe.... Some of us have already known this for years. Indeed thousands of years. It's good to see Somone might be paying the proper scientific attention though.

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Arguments that wind down to things like, "Since the existence of nothing is a contradiction in terms then something has to exist and that is God" never made much sense to me, and I don't think I'm alone.

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