Characteristic's of a Terrorist.......

[+OverSword]

Since I'm digging a hole here, let me dig it a little deeper. Was anything ever really changed by an election? You replace one political party in power with another, and eventually it swings back. It's really the same government with different actors with slightly different leanings, but overall trends continue.

exactly true, and the biggest growing complaint amongst voters who are becoming more and more aware that our government and thier big media pawns stifle the voice of any 3rd party that makes sense. As more people become aware more will become mad and demand change in that system. If the system is too corrupt to respond to that call for change then count on revolution. If peaceful revolution does not work eventually non-peaceful means will be used. It's just historical fact. Ultimately the government only rules by the will or the acceptance of the ruled.

[Frank Merton]

I dunno. Some pretty awful governments stay in power, and every now and then a third party appears and replaces one of the old ones.

The benefit of multi-party systems as I see it is that it gives enough of the dissatisfied the feeling of having some power to forestall the kind of violence you speak of. It's a steam valve.

In Vietnam we don't have such a steam valve. The government has to perform; there is enough freedom and law here that it can't just come and crush complaint (although sometimes it does, but only the ones where a good case for their dishonesty can be made). I think there is a benefit that we don't have all the hoopla and waste that goes into Western elections and all the turmoil of the periodic changes in rulership, but we don't have that steam valve. Maybe the politicians here are more with it because they don't have to be politicians. It started with revolutionaries; now its rule by technocrats and bureaucrats.

[+OverSword]

I dunno. Some pretty awful governments stay in power, and every now and then a third party appears and replaces one of the old ones.

The benefit of multi-party systems as I see it is that it gives enough of the dissatisfied the feeling of having some power to forestall the kind of violence you speak of. It's a steam valve.

In Vietnam we don't have such a steam valve. The government has to perform; there is enough freedom and law here that it can't just come and crush complaint (although sometimes it does, but only the ones where a good case for their dishonesty can be made). I think there is a benefit that we don't have all the hoopla and waste that goes into Western elections and all the turmoil of the periodic changes in rulership, but we don't have that steam valve. Maybe the politicians here are more with it because they don't have to be politicians. It started with revolutionaries; now its rule by technocrats and bureaucrats.

The feeling that is growing in the USA is that we don't have a multi-party system anymore, since the same donors pay for the campaigns of the politicians running for office and at the very top it's apparent that it doesn't matter if you claim democrat, republican, liberal, conservative, it's just talk. When you watch what they do instead of listen to what they say it's plain there really is no difference. The most glaring example is democratic president Bill Clinton repealing the 1913 Glass Steagal act, which separated savings and loan banks from investment banks, helping to ensure your savings would be safe from the 'gambling' investment banks participate in to make money. This caused the housing bubble and the very first part of our current financial woes. This type of deregulation of banks is very uncharacteristic for a democrat such as Clinton but much more in line with a Republican such as Reagan or Bush. But at the top of the process they pay no attention to the will or the well being of the electorate, they pay attention to the men that bought thier campaigns, and follow thier orders.

People are becoming increasingly aware of this.

Edited March 20, 2013 by OverSword

[+OverSword]

Another example is the ACA otherwise known as Obamacare. He took a conservative model for creating the illusion that they were creating Universal Healthcare by making law that everyone had to buy healthcare. In his campaign for president he mocked this very method, stating "solving the healthcare crisis by forcing people to buy insurance would be like trying to solve the homlessnes crisis by forcing everyone to buy a house" But I never pay attention to what the say so in my mind our 'liberal' US president is in reality a fiscal conservative, working for the interest of the richest Americans.

I will now be brow beat by a slew of people who listen to what he says instead of watching what he does.

[Gunn]

Pretty much agree with what OverSword said above. In my eyes, both political parties are cut from the same rotten cloth, but each dyed with a different color. I'm not too much in agreement with the Libertarians either, there are a few of their political ideas that scare me, but as a Independent American I can agree with some of their political ideals; like the ridiculous idea of "Gun Control" or the heavy cost of the "War on Terror" for this country. In my eyes, Bush and Obama have raped this country financially one way or another over the past 13 years, Bush being the worst so far with his "War on Terror".

Yeah, I'd say there isn't much of a "multi-party system anymore", as well.

And this bit about some Americans wanting revolution or civil war who are members of this forum, I can honestly say I really don't want it. The death of many children and women caught in the crossfire pop in my mind, when those words are mentioned, a flashback of the Waco incident stirs in my mind. And as others have mentioned in this thread, that should be a very, very last resort type of thing. It really should be a type of thing that should never happen at all, as far as I'm concerned. But trying to prevent it from happening in this day and age is like 50/50 chance, because some corrupt people in power tend to push their luck, just to see how far they can go with the people.

[spayneuter]

There was a time not long ago when you could hear cocks crowing in the morning here in Ho Chi Minh City (a city of maybe nine million). They were for fighting and people bred them. Then came bird flu and a few of those breeders died from contact with chickens. The sound is gone.

This is I think the fear here -- disease that there is no treatment for and that spreads readily from person to person. Everyone here knows all about TB and malaria and dengue and polio and so on. They are gone now but not gone from memory. (Well dengue is still all too much around, but the mosquito campaigns keep it in the countryside.) Now, besides heart disease and diabetes, the big killer is liver cancer from chronic hepatitis B infection, and in a generation that will be gone.

When pandemic comes no one is spared, no matter how well you have prepared, no matter how much food and so on you have in your cave, it finds you. Animals or insects or even the air itself get you, if not other people seeking the same refuge. If it happens, it will probably be some form of influenza, but it could be a return of an old enemy in new anti-biotic resistant form, or something else. There are plenty of possibilities.

I would hope we could ride out a pandemic. We have enough food, water, medicine, etc to hunker down for 2 months and are constantly adding to that with food we eat anyway. When it's on sale we buy as much as we can afford, especially canned food. The problem is that there will be plenty of hungry people who would be willing to kill for food.

[Kowalski]

There was a time not long ago when you could hear cocks crowing in the morning here in Ho Chi Minh City (a city of maybe nine million). They were for fighting and people bred them. Then came bird flu and a few of those breeders died from contact with chickens. The sound is gone.

This is I think the fear here -- disease that there is no treatment for and that spreads readily from person to person. Everyone here knows all about TB and malaria and dengue and polio and so on. They are gone now but not gone from memory. (Well dengue is still all too much around, but the mosquito campaigns keep it in the countryside.) Now, besides heart disease and diabetes, the big killer is liver cancer from chronic hepatitis B infection, and in a generation that will be gone.

When pandemic comes no one is spared, no matter how well you have prepared, no matter how much food and so on you have in your cave, it finds you. Animals or insects or even the air itself get you, if not other people seeking the same refuge. If it happens, it will probably be some form of influenza, but it could be a return of an old enemy in new anti-biotic resistant form, or something else. There are plenty of possibilities.

I know what you're saying. Not long ago, we had some really bad wildfires in Texas. Me and my in laws are neighbors, so we all had to go stay at a friends house not far away. The cops and fire department, basically came out here, and made us grab a few things and leave. It was awful. My son (who was only 10 months old) developed a upper respiratory infection from all the smoke in the air (his only illness, besides a small cold a few months ago) But me and my mother in law, and friend were talking (and we all prep) and we were like, how do you prepare for this? Being forced out of your house with practically nothing? They wouldn't even let us go back to get things we needed or feed or animals, so we had to resort to sneaking in. Sneaking in to OUR OWN PROPERTY! I'm just saying, how do you prepare for something like that? Thankfully and miraculously our house and our in laws was saved. Others weren't that lucky...

Even after going through that, I still prep. It's my way of dealing with "things" I guess.

[preacherman76]

Just playing devils advocate here: I've seen a number of people on this forum alone call for armed revolution against the government. These people do seem to share a certain pattern of beliefs. Therefore, if you were to ask me which group of people are most likely to start a revolution, I would point you to those with that particular set of beliefs... Is that not logical? I'm not saying you should go out and imprison them, I'm just connecting the logical dots.

You have it totaly backwards. Its the government who is pushing for revolution. The types described in this thread are trying to preserve what this country was founded on.

[preacherman76]

What you're missing here is the fact that any attempt by the people to overthrow the Government will have to deal with the army. Perhaps civilian militias could take on the army, but it will require them to commit acts of terrorism. 'Patriots' hold up the Vietcong as an example of successful guerilla warfare but don't seem to mention the atrocities they commited. Such a revolution should be viewed as an absolute last resort. Some folks seem to think that the time for the last resort is drawing near, but have people truly exhausted their non-violent options?

As for the list, a real danger is to assume that a terrorist fits any kind of profile. It is especially dangerous to try and focus on one group at the expense of the other. I've watched a couple of episodes of Doomsday Preppers and the folks there are perhaps a bit obsessive, but they're just normal people. Its probably the same with the militias. Now if somebody buys the ingredients for a couple of hundred kilos of explosives they are a potential suspect.

I think the most important thing to stress is that nobody is a terrorist until they have carried out an act of terrorism. It is a crime just like any other. You don't see lists circulating regarding signs of a potential murderer. Everyone is a potential murderer, they come in all shapes and sizes, just like terrorists.

First I want to say, I dont think anyone wants a armed revolution. If it happens that means we were pushed into one. And as for the bolded part, I doubt its the American people who will have to deal with the US armed forces. They have taken a oath to defend the constitution. Most will side with it and defend the American people. Especialy considering DHS has openly stated that returning vets are the number 1 terrorist threat to the country.

[Frank Merton]

Let me tell you something -- you don't want to live through a revolution or civil war if you can possibly avoid it.

As far as "preserve what this country was founded on," that is hard to take seriously. Times change, and what any country was founded on is totally obsolete by now. Besides, just what was the US founded on? Read Hamilton and you get one picture, read Jefferson and it's totally different. (Sorry but those are the only ones I'm familiar with).

[preacherman76]

All or most of the people in this thread, who see the need for change, want a peaceful revolution, not a violent one. Kowalski summarized it extremely well. It's a change of heart and mind that is best expressed at the voting booth. You don't need to be a "terrorist" (whatever that means these days) to see that we're accelerating in the wrong direction.

I wish it were that simple. They have highjacked the entire electoral process. The only way a voting booth can help now is on the local level. And even that has its claws in coruption.

[Frank Merton]

Who is this "they" who have highjacked the electoral process?

[preacherman76]

Let me tell you something -- you don't want to live through a revolution or civil war if you can possibly avoid it.

As far as "preserve what this country was founded on," that is hard to take seriously. Times change, and what any country was founded on is totally obsolete by now. Besides, just what was the US founded on? Read Hamilton and you get one picture, read Jefferson and it's totally different. (Sorry but those are the only ones I'm familiar with).

The priciples of freedom never change, and nothing is new under the sun. The rich and powerful want more riches and power, at the expence of the people they are suppose to serve.

As far as the OP, the bottom line is, anyone who is awake to this totaly evil corupted government are labled the enemy. And the more people who wake up to this fact, the more danger this entire nation will be in. Cause they arent going to go away quietly.

[Babe Ruth]

Surely Frank, THAT is the $64,000 question.

I suspect the answer is rather complex.

[preacherman76]

Who is this "they" who have highjacked the electoral process?

The banks, the media, big corperations, the military industrial complex, who use this government as a tool to expand thier dominance.

[Frank Merton]

Sometimes I see things posted that just don't make any sense, and I think the person must be a little eccentric or incredibly arrogant that they don't get their way in politics. They probably don't get their way much in other things either. Life tends to be like that, and one doesn't have much influence among millions of voters.

Personally I am not an enamored of this "freedom" that Americans think they have a unique grasp of. It's a bit cultish. We all have to live under law and pay taxes and respect the police. The difference between the US and Vietnam nowadays is that the US is controlled by self-appointed politicians (mostly lawyers) while Vietnam is controlled by members of the Communist party -- which has evolved into a body of mainly well-educated types who keep their noses clean.

You are always going to have a ruling elite; its the nature of the beast. The founding of the US was done by a small elite of wealthy landed British-derived aristocrats. The vast majority had almost no influence. This was freedom? The freedom they wanted was freedom from Britain to run the country as they wanted to.

[preacherman76]

Let me tell you something -- you don't want to live through a revolution or civil war if you can possibly avoid it.

Of course not. But even more so I dont want to look my children in the eyes and tell them they have to live in a police state cause we were cowards who bowed to coruption and evil. Cause my ass was more important then thier future

Edited March 21, 2013 by preacherman76

[Babe Ruth]

Frank

How long have you been living in HCMC?

Have you ever visited the beautiful island of Phu Quoc, with its little settlement of An Thoi? I did, a few times, back in 1971. Absolutely georgeous!

[preacherman76]

Sometimes I see things posted that just don't make any sense, and I think the person must be a little eccentric or incredibly arrogant that they don't get their way in politics. They probably don't get their way much in other things either. Life tends to be like that, and one doesn't have much influence among millions of voters.

Personally I am not an enamored of this "freedom" that Americans think they have a unique grasp of. It's a bit cultish. We all have to live under law and pay taxes and respect the police. The difference between the US and Vietnam nowadays is that the US is controlled by self-appointed politicians (mostly lawyers) while Vietnam is controlled by members of the Communist party -- which has evolved into a body of mainly well-educated types who keep their noses clean.

You are always going to have a ruling elite; its the nature of the beast. The founding of the US was done by a small elite of wealthy landed British-derived aristocrats. The vast majority had almost no influence. This was freedom? The freedom they wanted was freedom from Britain to run the country as they wanted to.

I suppose thats cause you think this is as bad as its going to get. You'll see the light when they drain you of everything you have ever worked for. And by every single historical measuring stick, thats exactly what is about to happen, and already is happening. Accept this time on a global scale.

As for your insults (and the reason this is my last responce to you) dont underestimate us underachievers who "dont get thier way much in other things" (then have the nerve to call me arrogent). Cause frankly (no pun intended, well maybe alittle) there is a reason we have been defined by your rulers as a ligit threat. I suppose the British thought the same things back in 1776.

Edited March 21, 2013 by preacherman76

[Frank Merton]

I guess I was a little rough, but you sound so far out of it and out of touch with a much more reasonble view of things. Before my illness I use to visit the States on business several times a year. Things there are much the same as everywhere else, except faster.

[No Censorship]

I wish it were that simple. They have highjacked the entire electoral process. The only way a voting booth can help now is on the local level. And even that has its claws in coruption.

That's why we should return to paper ballots. There's less chance of voting fraud, although it still exists.

[No Censorship]

Let me tell you something -- you don't want to live through a revolution or civil war if you can possibly avoid it.

As far as "preserve what this country was founded on," that is hard to take seriously. Times change, and what any country was founded on is totally obsolete by now. Besides, just what was the US founded on? Read Hamilton and you get one picture, read Jefferson and it's totally different. (Sorry but those are the only ones I'm familiar with).

Times change; values don't. We will preserve and protect the values expressed in our Constitution. We don't think that it's a "totally obsolete" document. Jefferson would join Hamilton in protecting it if there were with us now.

[Stellar]

You have it totaly backwards. Its the government who is pushing for revolution. The types described in this thread are trying to preserve what this country was founded on.

I don't think there's really a direction to it for me to have it backwards. I think each party is making decisions that the other is reacting to, and now it's snowballing. The government makes a decision some don't like. Those people start quiet musings of revolution if the government continues. The government hears these musings and gets worried, deciding theyre going to need to do something to prevent revolution. Some people again don't like this decision and start talking about revolution more openly. The government then hears open talk of revolution, and feels its imperative to arm themselves incase it happens. The other party sees the government arming themselves, believing its to oppress them, so they arm themselves. The government then sees these ppl arming themselves after all the talk of revolution, and thinks revolution is imminent... Etc. that's what I see happening.

Edited: fixed a typo.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Stellar

[Frank Merton]

To be blunt, in spite of all the bravado I see posted here, I think the chances of a revolution changing the state of things in the US are asymptotically close to zero. That means so close that there no number you might invent would be small enough to express the difference

[No Censorship]

To be blunt, in spite of all the bravado I see posted here, I think the chances of a revolution changing the state of things in the US are asymptotically close to zero. That means so close that there no number you might invent would be small enough to express the difference

I'm not much for false bravado, as I'm a pacifist. I definitely don't want a civil war (sounds like an oxymoron) or a violent revolution. That's not where we're at right now. If things really hit the fan in the future, keep in mind the fact that the Founding Fathers represented a small minority of the colonial population.