The reality of the UK education system

[Oscar77]

The main problem teachers have is kids with a lack of discipline at home.

If a child isn't brought up to respect authorite at home then how do you expect the teacher to teach them?

My daughter is 10 and knows that when she is told to do something by a teacher she listens.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Oscar77

[Professor Buzzkill]

The main problem teachers have is kids with a lack of discipline at home.

If a child isn't brought up to respect authorite at home then how do you expect the teacher to teach them?

My daughter is 10 and knows that when she is told to do something by a teacher she listens.

And the flip side of this is that the child complains about the teacher to the parents who immediately take the childs side. Even 30 years ago you wouldn't tell your parents that a teacher yelled at you or hit you, else you might find yourself being yelled at or hit again.

[Oscar77]

And the flip side of this is that the child complains about the teacher to the parents who immediately take the childs side. Even 30 years ago you wouldn't tell your parents that a teacher yelled at you or hit you, else you might find yourself being yelled at or hit again.

I know what you mean,My daughter is being bullied by one such child.

I have heard her mother shouting and screaming at her teacher for punishing her for it!

the sad thing is that if she wanted to my daughter could very quickly stop the bullying her self but knows if she stands up for herself she is breaking the school rules so she wont do it.

[ExpandMyMind]

I know what you mean,My daughter is being bullied by one such child.

I have heard her mother shouting and screaming at her teacher for punishing her for it!

the sad thing is that if she wanted to my daughter could very quickly stop the bullying her self but knows if she stands up for herself she is breaking the school rules so she wont do it.

I don't think the problem is with teachers at all, it is with parents. Yeah, some teachers give off a certain weakness which can be preyed upon by badly behaved kids, but it is the lack of discipline in the home with no deterrence to bad behaviour that is the problem.

For cases like yours (in fact for all bullying cases), I believe the parents should be charged with the crimes of their children, with serious consequences for repeat offenders. That would sort out the parenting, quick-style. And in most cases it would sort out bullying as well.

[pantodragon]

in my ex-job by questioning people you could tell how they were going to react within a short time,and whether they were telling the truth.If they got agressive you switched your tactics to another method of approach, until you knew whether they were guilty or innocent,and then you either arrested them or let them go,but the majority were arrested.

You sound like you were, or are, a policeman. I have had experience of these tactics used by policemen, and I can say that they are very unpleasant. They are aggressive, intimidating, coercive, deceiving: they are trying to trick, trap, induce a confession --- and these tactics will get a confession from an angel. When I was subject to them, on one occasion I was actually the one reporting a theft and on another occasion I was a possible suspect, but was struck off their list after one interview. What it left me feeling was that I’d rather have nothing to do with the police, even if I was being stalked by a potential murderer --- I just have the feeling that in that latter situation, they’d end up twisting things around so much that I’d end up being the suspect in the dock with the murderer going off happily to do it to someone else.

So, in spite of all your books, you did not really learn to get the truth from people. You just learned to frighten a lie out of them. And incidentally, I’ve seen teachers use those tactics with pupils/staff --- very nasty.

Whether you live in fear or not is really up to you though.

Do you have a switch you can throw, then? Something that switches the fear off when you choose?

[pantodragon]

i thought you worked in the field of physics, panto?

Now you were a teacher for, forever. And then you had a fleeting moment of being a life coach to a teacher.

Is it inconceivable that after rejecting physics, as I did at a fairly young age, I then spent the rest of my career in teaching? Is it also inconceivable that I could have run 2 jobs simultaneously: teaching and life coaching? And I haven’t yet mentioned the writing (published), photography (published), assorted arts and crafts (sold and published), tutoring, computerising a large business, running bed and breakfast and assorted menial jobs. And finally, the biggest job that I have done, and one which was self-financed, was, and is, finding the answers to the Big Questions of life, the universe and everything, and then having done so, going on to follow through all the implications and consequences.

Oh, all right then, I admit it. Pantodragon is actually 2 people (panto = pantomime). That last project about life, the universe and everything is a 2 person project, involving a lot of thinking and trying things out in practice on ourselves.

Render: Ever stopped and think YOU are the only one afraid here? Probably not eh.

Silly boy!!! The one’s who are afraid are the ones who conform, the one’s who won’t rock the boat, and the one’s who are most concerned to put on a show of not being afraid --- I’m looking at your writing quite carefully here…….

[pantodragon]

then frankly you were using it wrong. An IWB is the greatest teaching tool since the on-site library and over-head projector.

Just as well we are in a virtual world here and I can’t watch you make a fool of yourself when you can’t in reality live up to your claims. I had a student working for me once to whom I gave a computer programming project. It was a tricky bit of programming, but when I showed the student what I wanted, he pooh-poohed and said it would be done inside a week. At the end of the week, he had got no where and I had to help him out. Again I tried to warn him that the next stage would be quite tricky and again he pooh-poohed, and again he failed. This went on for the full 6 weeks and eventually the programming entirely myself. The interesting thing was, that he was so incredibly confident that he had me thinking that I must be very stupid thinking that there were any difficulties…….in that case, of course, we were in the real world and so the false nature of his confidence was exposed.

You want to show them a video as an example of a topic? It's at hand. You want them to copy out something? Write it the night/week before hand and pull it up when you need it.

You want them to play an education game? Voila.

The bloody things have more uses then a hoola-hoop.

I suspect you’re an IWB salesman. And you know how trustworthy salesmen are!

[pantodragon]

I can only comment on personal experience but my children do not fear going to school. They are 4 and 6 yrs old and they love it.

If your children are really not afraid to go to school, then there is something very far wrong. Look at my comment concerning children who have lost their sense of danger, and consider taking them to a psychologist. Another possibility is that they are a nasty little pair of bullies --- they have got the upper hand in the classromm and they know it.

[pantodragon]

UK education is terrible. My sister is a teacher and is changing careers because it's a lost cause. There is no longer any discipline in schools because they are not allowed to discipline the kids any more. So by the time it comes to the end half of them are less employable than a trained chimp.

You only have to look at most of the idiotic teenagers, glued to their mobile phones and don't even know where beef comes from (yes I actually saw some teenagers who didn't know where beef came from) to see the future.

I'm glad there's still somebody else in the world who's got an ounce of sanity left --- hang on to it, 'cos they'll do their damndest to rob you of it!

[pantodragon]

Then their teachers definitely failed them. Sad really.

Teachers are not responsible for the education system. Nowadays teachers are reduced to actors who have to learn their lines. That's how strictly controlled the syllabuses are. The idea that teachers have any freedom whatsoever to teach anyhting other than what is prescribed for them is laughable. Any who try would soon find themselves in deep ****. So, try thinking for yourself instead of parroting what you read in the newspapers.

[pantodragon]

its a teachers job to teach. if a teacher cant handle a class, then whats the point of teaching?

So if Little Johnny is still ****ting his pants at the age of 20, it's the teacher's fault for not teaching him to use a potty? Are you completely unable to distinguish between a pparent and a teacher? I wouldn't be surprised. One of the signs of the degradation of people's minds in our society is that they are increasingly unable to make distinctions between two things which are similar but significantly different.

[Sweetpumper]

I just read that some schools are banning kids from having best friends. LMAO!!! Good luck with your future over there.

[pantodragon]

Do you ever wonder why teachers are only now not able to "handle" their class?

If your hands are tied, you cannot swim.

Exactly.

[pantodragon]

Maybe teachers should get some extra education themselves instead of acting like their hands are tied. Lazy.

No, that's not the point. It isn't the lack of education. It's that crucifixion is the punishment for trying bto teach anything other than that which is strictly prescribed by the authorities. For goodness sake, WAKE UP will you!!!

[pantodragon]

Edit. I do not mean your kid Render. I am sure (if you have kids) you would be an good parent.

I beg to differ!

[pantodragon]

the sad thing is that if she wanted to my daughter could very quickly stop the bullying her self but knows if she stands up for herself she is breaking the school rules so she wont do it.

That's very interesting. I hadn't thought of that, but upon reflection, I can see from my own experience that that is the case.

[pantodragon]

I don't think the problem is with teachers at all, it is with parents.

I think it's just as wrong to blame the parents as it si to blame the teachers. The problem lies deeper.

[spud the mackem]

You sound like you were, or are, a policeman. I have had experience of these tactics used by policemen, and I can say that they are very unpleasant. They are aggressive, intimidating, coercive, deceiving: they are trying to trick, trap, induce a confession --- and these tactics will get a confession from an angel. When I was subject to them, on one occasion I was actually the one reporting a theft and on another occasion I was a possible suspect, but was struck off their list after one interview. What it left me feeling was that I’d rather have nothing to do with the police, even if I was being stalked by a potential murderer --- I just have the feeling that in that latter situation, they’d end up twisting things around so much that I’d end up being the suspect in the dock with the murderer going off happily to do it to someone else.

So, in spite of all your books, you did not really learn to get the truth from people. You just learned to frighten a lie out of them. And incidentally, I’ve seen teachers use those tactics with pupils/staff --- very nasty.

Do you have a switch you can throw, then? Something that switches the fear off when you choose?

I am not and never have been a Policeman,but I have studied human behaviour,which you obviously haven't.I guess Pantodragons live in a world of Pantomimes, total fantasy,why don't you grow up and act your age,instead of all these childish posts.No one is taking you seriously man,what a waste of space.

[Taun]

While I do agree with the seeming majority, that perhaps Panto spent a long time in a career field she was probably unsuited for... I do think there is some validity in a few of her comments and concerns...

The current batch of kids in school do exhibit a lack of discipline in their lives... or at least a very visual minority do... Teachers have had their hands tied in instilling discipline in the kids... and the 'standardization of curicula' has resulted in more of a "bureaucracy of compliance" than in one of result...

However... I firmly believe that teachers are not (should not be) the ones to instill discipline... That should be the parents - the teachers should maintain that discipline, but should not be responsible for setting it... The kids in school today are from the "everyone gets a trophy", "everyone is special" generation... IMO this 'teaches' them that they will always "win"... will always get what they want... It fails (miserably) in teaching them that "you are going to fail at times... so learn how to live with it"...

As to the tech "problem"... newer, brighter and shinier is not always "better"... BUT... it does grab the kids attention (and imagination) and that should never be overlooked... Perhaps the school was at fault for not training the teachers how to more easily and naturally use the higher tech stuff... perhaps some teachers just aren't 'techies'... In any case it IS the schools fault for not identifying that she was having problems/concerns with the equipment and either working with her to overcome these problems, or removing the tech from her classroom/course material...

Unfortunately, (for some) higher tech is the wave of the future and those that can not/ will not adjust to it, will be left behind... Sort of a cultural "survival of the fittest"... sad but true...

I won't go on about what I consider the "dumbing down" of the curicula as that is another subject...

[Mr.United_Nations]

I did Human Behaviour too and I think you are too passive

[ExpandMyMind]

I think it's just as wrong to blame the parents as it si to blame the teachers. The problem lies deeper.

As with all social problems, the problem no doubt does lie deeper. But please explain where you think the problem lies.

[Crabby Kitten]

I'm really not sure what you mean. I do remember being scared going to school but that was because of bullies who lingered at the school gates. A big gang of girls and boys used to hang out there smoking with their older biker friends. Bullying wasn't really taken seriosly back then. Now they're having talks about it and doing all they can to stop bullying. I don't think incidents like that are allowed. Bullying towards teachers may be likely in secondary schools, like the city ones. I don't think you can compare spoilt brats and violent kids with spies though.

[stevewinn]

No, that's not the point. It isn't the lack of education. It's that crucifixion is the punishment for trying bto teach anything other than that which is strictly prescribed by the authorities. For goodness sake, WAKE UP will you!!!

your job is to teach what the state tells you to teach. otherwise we end up with crackpot teachers teaching the pupils their version of whatever that maybe. after reading your latest posts its clear you needed these guidelines in place otherwise you'd be projecting your vision. parents rely on teachers in educating their children for the future, the responsibility is great. there are not many professions which have a greater influence on peoples lives, its said the influence of a teacher lasts a lifetime and its true, everyone can remember their teachers.

as for discipline in schools i think the school as a responsibility especially in the inner city schools, were the only structure in the children's lives comes from the school. in a deprived area were the children mainly come from backgrounds of high unemployment, drug, alcohol abuse, the school is the only place they will receive stability. the school is like an oasis in such areas for children to escape the harsh realities of life which lay beyond the school gates. - its the teachers in these schools who are worth their weight in gold. these teachers know their fighting a loosing battle but day after day they try their best to influence the lives of their pupils. and if one just one child can be educated and able to escape their background then their work is not in vain. - its these teachers who i consider to be the best of the best. and i was lucky enough to be taught by such teachers, one in particular Mrs Pearson, who influenced my life. i wish i could meet her today to just say thank you. she's long since retired, she will most probably be in her late 70's now. - the teachers we can do without are the self pitying ones. of course some go into teaching for the wrong reasons, but instead of leaving they linger on, mainly down to the fact they spent 5+ years training and wont admit they have made a mistake. with their passion diminished they go through the motions and instead of embracing the system they fight it. they are what you call journeymen going from school to school, never staying in one place long enough and no-one wins. the teacher nor the pupil.

Edited March 21, 2013 by stevewinn

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Just as well we are in a virtual world here and I can’t watch you make a fool of yourself when you can’t in reality live up to your claims. I had a student working for me once to whom I gave a computer programming project. It was a tricky bit of programming, but when I showed the student what I wanted, he pooh-poohed and said it would be done inside a week. At the end of the week, he had got no where and I had to help him out. Again I tried to warn him that the next stage would be quite tricky and again he pooh-poohed, and again he failed. This went on for the full 6 weeks and eventually the programming entirely myself. The interesting thing was, that he was so incredibly confident that he had me thinking that I must be very stupid thinking that there were any difficulties…….in that case, of course, we were in the real world and so the false nature of his confidence was exposed.

I suspect you’re an IWB salesman. And you know how trustworthy salesmen are!

actually, I'm a classroom teacher who uses IWB everyday.

[Render]

Yeah, its the teacher fault that the students cannot control themselves. If the teacher had just been a better teacher, with more education, that kid wouldn't have called her a "stupid b*tch" and thrown a chair at her. (one mild example from the UK)

Well no, I didn't mean it this radical. Although i see how it could come across that way. I meant that it has to come from all the ways : parents, students and teachers. And it's obvious teachers are having a hard time to cope with the current student population. Times have changed, there's less sense of hierarchy. Many teachers still think in older concepts and the huge trend of ADHD and all that didn't help much of course.

Teachers need to be taught new ways to handle children. There's no point into thinking about "in the past you could've just hit them" .. those days are over. New ways of thinking have to be taught.

Edit. I do not mean your kid Render. I am sure (if you have kids) you would be an good parent.

Don't worry, didn't take it as such. I can distance my personal life from an internet conversation.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Render