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pantodragon

The reality of the UK education system

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Healthy children would be entranced by older teachers. Enteranced by their life experience and wisdom of age. Young teachers are bland and boring, having had insufficient experience. Nevertheless, of course, in our sick culture, youth is idolised, is cool, and it's more important to be cool than to have anything between your ears.

Actually age has nothing at all to do with it.

Nothing.

I've seen kids entranced by young and old and in between - it's all down to how the teacher acts and the sort of person they are. I've seen old teachers bore and young teachers bore. I've seen old teachers with more vim and vitality then their students.

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Actually age has nothing at all to do with it.

Nothing.

I've seen kids entranced by young and old and in between - it's all down to how the teacher acts and the sort of person they are. I've seen old teachers bore and young teachers bore. I've seen old teachers with more vim and vitality then their students.

Some people, it seems, think that there is 'one right way' to teach every student and/or curriculum. Such archaic notions are best left behind as nothing has ever been further from the truth. Teachers need to adapt to stay viable otherwise they risk being overwhelmed, such as what seems to be the OP's case.

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Actually age has nothing at all to do with it.

Nothing.

I've seen kids entranced by young and old and in between - it's all down to how the teacher acts and the sort of person they are. I've seen old teachers bore and young teachers bore. I've seen old teachers with more vim and vitality then their students.

Some people, it seems, think that there is 'one right way' to teach every student and/or curriculum. Such archaic notions are best left behind as nothing has ever been further from the truth. Teachers need to adapt to stay viable otherwise they risk being overwhelmed, such as what seems to be the OP's case.

Cannot like these two posts enough times :clap::tsu:

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Pantodragon, this American has a question for you. Have grammar and spelling skills worsened in your country? I observed that older British people had a better understanding of the English language. That might have been an inaccurate observation skewed by members of certain forums, but it has been my experience.

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First of all, thank you for ignoring the majority of my post. Nice to see it was a total waste of time trying to talk to you. Much as I suspected, you are the kind of teacher who made up their mind before gathering any information and refuses to consider that they may be wrong.

And no, they shouldn't be entranced by older teachers. Not if the teacher is clearly out of her depth and cannot control a class. And the fact that you assume they should respect you just because of your age speaks volumes. Why should they respect you if you're not willing to earn it by treating them as people?

"In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was God." I learned a long time ago that you can't believe everything you read in books, nor on internet forums, nor believe the words that issue from people's mouths. I was in Moscow and not followed by the KGB and not abused by the police and not confined to my hotel etc, etc, yet folks I spoke to in the same hotel claimed to be followed by the KGB, abused by the police, confined to their hotel etc. The tour guide I spoke to found the ideas of many of the tourists to be laughable and bizarre. "What kind of country do they think this is?" she asked me. I encountered the same sort of thing in China, in north Africa, in west Africa and in every school I've worked in...................

So, if you want to get to the truth of things and understand things, you have to use your own senses and your own experience and look past the words, no matter how much conviction they are spoken with.

This is the reason I did not respond to part of your post. I took it in but did not feel it needed a reply. And it told me rather more about you than the real world.

Edited by pantodragon

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Actually age has nothing at all to do with it.

Nothing.

I've seen kids entranced by young and old and in between - it's all down to how the teacher acts and the sort of person they are. I've seen old teachers bore and young teachers bore. I've seen old teachers with more vim and vitality then their students.

Actually I agree with you, age has nothing to do with it................in our society: that is its sickness. People fail to mature properly. When they claim their pensions they are no more mature than when they wore nappies. Youth is idolised. Cool has taken place of wisdom. This is a lethal situation. See my post: The world:what went wrong?

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Some people, it seems, think that there is 'one right way' to teach every student and/or curriculum. Such archaic notions are best left behind as nothing has ever been further from the truth. Teachers need to adapt to stay viable otherwise they risk being overwhelmed, such as what seems to be the OP's case.

Adapt? Respond to individuality? The teacher's rule book is currently thicker than your head and getting thicker by the day! Every timer you turn around another rule is waiting like a garden rake and the moment you take a step towards freedom, it ups and whacks you in the face!

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Pantodragon, this American has a question for you. Have grammar and spelling skills worsened in your country? I observed that older British people had a better understanding of the English language. That might have been an inaccurate observation skewed by members of certain forums, but it has been my experience.

If that is your experience, I would not wish to contradict it. I do believe that it is of great importance that one trusts one's own experience above all else. Having said which, in fact, I would be inclined to agree with you.......having said which, I do wonder sometimes how much Americans and Europeans do actually understand one another. I have often heard, in US films, the term "Eurobabble" and often when quite understand and see the need for the "babble". On the other hand, I often feel that Americans I hear interviewed on TV, academics, politicians etc, are too well rehearsed and too concerned to "give nothing away". Or, I hate to say it, but I detect a certain lack of sophistication in American speech.

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All I know about english schools is from articles at Daily Mail and elsewhere. And let's face even here in the states you do have schools where kids are out of hand.Look at these young men who go around and assault young girls from their school and photo and post this stuff on line. Makes you wonder what they are like in highschool and out in society at large.The reasons so many of these kids are awful is because of their parents. School isn't today like when I was a kid. The sad fact is we are not advancing as a civilazation but going backward,and that these kids can reproduce.

Here in the states they are constantly testing kids.I hear from teachers I know that they are teaching to tests and that things the kids should know,they aren't learning because everything is geared towards the STAARS test (Texas) or some other one depending where in the country you live.

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"In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was God." I learned a long time ago that you can't believe everything you read in books, nor on internet forums, nor believe the words that issue from people's mouths. I was in Moscow and not followed by the KGB and not abused by the police and not confined to my hotel etc, etc, yet folks I spoke to in the same hotel claimed to be followed by the KGB, abused by the police, confined to their hotel etc. The tour guide I spoke to found the ideas of many of the tourists to be laughable and bizarre. "What kind of country do they think this is?" she asked me. I encountered the same sort of thing in China, in north Africa, in west Africa and in every school I've worked in...................

So, if you want to get to the truth of things and understand things, you have to use your own senses and your own experience and look past the words, no matter how much conviction they are spoken with.

This is the reason I did not respond to part of your post. I took it in but did not feel it needed a reply. And it told me rather more about you than the real world.

So you make a big thing over it all being down to personal experience and yet the entire thrust of this thread has been you telling people this IS how things are and anyone with different experiences is living in a fantasy world. So are you now prepared to admit that your experiences were an individual thing and not a consequence of how the world is today?

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All I know about english schools is from articles at Daily Mail and elsewhere. And let's face even here in the states you do have schools where kids are out of hand.Look at these young men who go around and assault young girls from their school and photo and post this stuff on line. Makes you wonder what they are like in highschool and out in society at large.The reasons so many of these kids are awful is because of their parents. School isn't today like when I was a kid. The sad fact is we are not advancing as a civilazation but going backward,and that these kids can reproduce.

Here in the states they are constantly testing kids.I hear from teachers I know that they are teaching to tests and that things the kids should know,they aren't learning because everything is geared towards the STAARS test (Texas) or some other one depending where in the country you live.

I agree with your point about teaching to exams. That's why I enjoy Primary teaching so much; there's less of that unless you teach Y6. I don't think we're going backwards as a society. We're moving to something different but not backwards.

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If that is your experience, I would not wish to contradict it. I do believe that it is of great importance that one trusts one's own experience above all else. Having said which, in fact, I would be inclined to agree with you.......having said which, I do wonder sometimes how much Americans and Europeans do actually understand one another. I have often heard, in US films, the term "Eurobabble" and often when quite understand and see the need for the "babble". On the other hand, I often feel that Americans I hear interviewed on TV, academics, politicians etc, are too well rehearsed and too concerned to "give nothing away". Or, I hate to say it, but I detect a certain lack of sophistication in American speech.

Don't get me wrong. We experienced the same decline in both verbal and social skills. I base that on real life. You know more than I do when it comes to the situation in your country. You have a specific perspective in that you're in the educational field too. You come into contact with a wide range of students and teachers. My observation (based on certain forums) is that older British people are better-spoken than younger British people. Based on that observation, I guessed that British people (over thirty) were better educated in the past.

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Actually I agree with you, age has nothing to do with it................in our society: that is its sickness. People fail to mature properly. When they claim their pensions they are no more mature than when they wore nappies. Youth is idolised. Cool has taken place of wisdom. This is a lethal situation. See my post: The world:what went wrong?

so you blame other people for your fault? its your job to stop that.

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I am beginning to think that the standard idea of a school where primary and secondary students go to learn is either now or soon will be obsolete.

Although there are many good, dedicated teachers, the maxim nevertheless seems to hold that those who can't do, teach. There is also getting to be worse and worse the issue of student safety in school and in transit to and from school.

Of course there are plenty of parents who cannot be trusted to control their children enough to make home-schooling universally successful, although computers could be use to not just feed lessons, but also measure time and activity in the lessons. It would also provide much better control over what is actually being taught.

There is worry that students who don't have schools to go to miss out on socialization. Maybe that's not so bad; maybe the socialization they get in many schools harms more than helps.

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So you make a big thing over it all being down to personal experience and yet the entire thrust of this thread has been you telling people this IS how things are and anyone with different experiences is living in a fantasy world. So are you now prepared to admit that your experiences were an individual thing and not a consequence of how the world is today?

I have said time and again: I do not want to convert anyone to my beliefs. DetectiveMystery2013 uses this quote in his signature: There is one reality with billions of versions. That is my position. It is an allowable, even inevitable, position within my perception of reality --- see my post Pantodragon’s world in a nutshell.

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I have said time and again: I do not want to convert anyone to my beliefs. DetectiveMystery2013 uses this quote in his signature: There is one reality with billions of versions. That is my position. It is an allowable, even inevitable, position within my perception of reality --- see my post Pantodragon’s world in a nutshell.

And yet the thread is titled 'THE reality of the UK education system'. Why put something forward as the one and only truth if you aren't trying to convince people?

On second thoughts, don't bother answering that. 'Pantodragon's world in a nutshell'. You got that right... :whistle:

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I think that part of the problem with the education system in the UK - and in other countries no doubt - is that many parents expect too much of it. School should be a part of a child's development, not the whole of it. There are just too many parents around who expect schools to be entirely responsible for the raising of their children...

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I think that part of the problem with the education system in the UK - and in other countries no doubt - is that many parents expect too much of it. School should be a part of a child's development, not the whole of it. There are just too many parents around who expect schools to be entirely responsible for the raising of their children...

In my experience it's less parents and more the government who have no clue about education but have the all important spreadsheet and reports from experts who make teaching a miserable exercise.

The Police Minister needs to be an ex-copper, the Health Minister a doctor and the education minister a practicing teacher.

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*Snip.*

I don't wish to take sides in this thread if I can help it. I'd just like to share my personal experience as it seems to go hand-in-hand with what the OP is describing.

Having been born and raised in the UK, I agree one hundred percent with Pantodragon. It is based on fear, although I may be understanding it from a different perspective.

From my experience, the atmosphere was tense for most of the day, up until lunch break, where the teachers could relax in the break room and pupils had a chance to go 'wild' on the playground.

Aside from that, I don't recall a single day of school (especially secondary/high school) where I didn't feel vulnerable or threatened in some sense. It starts the moment you get inside the gate of the field and remains with you throughout the day until you leave and head home. What a relief that always was.

This was especially evident whilst approaching my form where I would be viewed as a target for bullying every morning, by the same bunch of pupils up until the teacher arrived. Also, in our Drama class & P.E, I, along with a few others were again seen as targets by other pupils and the P.E. teachers in particular were never really interested in breaking up a situation where pupils were demonizing another, or were elsewhere. Teachers could often be apathetic to your situation.

I think anybody that is struggling to come to terms with this was perhaps either part of the problem, ignorant of their surroundings, detached from their emotions and/or forced into acceptance of the fear, for fear of being bullied and seen as a potential victim for bullying. No offence. This is just how I feel. But there certainly was a vibe of feeling vulnerable, which lasted most of the day.

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I don't wish to take sides in this thread if I can help it. I'd just like to share my personal experience as it seems to go hand-in-hand with what the OP is describing.

Having been born and raised in the UK, I agree one hundred percent with Pantodragon. It is based on fear, although I may be understanding it from a different perspective.

From my experience, the atmosphere was tense for most of the day, up until lunch break, where the teachers could relax in the break room and pupils had a chance to go 'wild' on the playground.

Aside from that, I don't recall a single day of school (especially secondary/high school) where I didn't feel vulnerable or threatened in some sense. It starts the moment you get inside the gate of the field and remains with you throughout the day until you leave and head home. What a relief that always was.

This was especially evident whilst approaching my form where I would be viewed as a target for bullying every morning, by the same bunch of pupils up until the teacher arrived. Also, in our Drama class & P.E, I, along with a few others were again seen as targets by other pupils and the P.E. teachers in particular were never really interested in breaking up a situation where pupils were demonizing another, or were elsewhere. Teachers could often be apathetic to your situation.

I think anybody that is struggling to come to terms with this was perhaps either part of the problem, ignorant of their surroundings, detached from their emotions and/or forced into acceptance of the fear, for fear of being bullied and seen as a potential victim for bullying. No offence. This is just how I feel. But there certainly was a vibe of feeling vulnerable, which lasted most of the day.

I agree that fear is present as a result of bullying. But that's a very different to 'The UK education system is based on fear'. Especially given that these are the reasons given by Pantodragon for this fear:

- children given responsibility

- exams

- lack of control

- health and safety

- technology

Nothing about bullying there...

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I agree that fear is present as a result of bullying. But that's a very different to 'The UK education system is based on fear'. Especially given that these are the reasons given by Pantodragon for this fear:

- children given responsibility

- exams

- lack of control

- health and safety

- technology

Nothing about bullying there...

Hence "Although I may be experiencing it from a different perspective."

However, I agree with two of her other points. I think mostly being given responsibility as a kid and lack of control. School shouldn't be something to be fearful about in any way, shape or form anyhow.

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I agree that fear is present as a result of bullying. But that's a very different to 'The UK education system is based on fear'. Especially given that these are the reasons given by Pantodragon for this fear:

- children given responsibility

- exams

- lack of control

- health and safety

- technology

Nothing about bullying there...

Did IQs suddenly drop since my last visit to the forum? But then, they're at rock bottom anyway, so how much lower can they get?!!!! There's EVERYTHING about bullying here. Just because I haven't used the word................ Well, scientists, like artists, have always considered themselves above having to actually express themselves in simple words.

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Did IQs suddenly drop since my last visit to the forum? But then, they're at rock bottom anyway, so how much lower can they get?!!!! There's EVERYTHING about bullying here. Just because I haven't used the word................ Well, scientists, like artists, have always considered themselves above having to actually express themselves in simple words.

Is the ... computer ... bullying you...? Or the exam..?

A big part of science, as you ought to know, is that every word used has ONE very specific meaning, which requires using slightly more unusual words. We could put things in simple words but it would actually make them harder to understand.

And you flatter me in thinking my IQ was above 140 before today. Guess I'll just have to cope with being merely gifted...

On a more serious note, keep the personal attacks out of it in future. Thank you.

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Is the ... computer ... bullying you...? Or the exam..?

Yes. Or, to be absolutely precise (+ or - 0.3 nanometes), computers and exams are being used to bully me.

A big part of science, as you ought to know, is that every word used has ONE very specific meaning, which requires using slightly more unusual words. We could put things in simple words but it would actually make them harder to understand.

This is a new one on me, I have to say! To be able to express one's thoughts and ideas in simple everyday language makes them harder to understand???!!!..............only for scientists who understand nothing but know a lot of jargon and have taken refuge behind it.

On a more serious note, keep the personal attacks out of it in future. Thank you.

If you want to avoid argument don't wave a red rag at a bull. Becayse that's what you are doing, waving a red rag.

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With respect to children’s behaviour (in or out of school), I refer you to:

(1) markdohle’s post: Rite of Passage (Unexplained Mysteries: Philosophy and Psychology forum).

(2) Michel de Montaigne’s essay: “Of Custom, and that we should not easily change a law received”.

Both are extremely pertinent to the points I have been making.

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