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Ashotep

NY's stop and frisk policy challenged

47 posts in this topic

When the number of blacks and hispanics is roughly half of the total population, with the other half being made up of multiple ethnicities (basically, there are more of them than any other group) it's not difficult to see that they would have a higher number of people being illegally stopped. And it doesn't have to have anything to do with racism, it's pure numbers.

Now, stopping anyone, for any reason other than actual probably cause is bs. But, to claim racism when it most likely isn't is just ignorant.

They're stopped and frisked based on their demographics, not their actions, though. That's why we criticized this wrongheaded policy. Our views weren't based on criminals statistics. They were based on discriminatory actions that ostensibly addressed "pre-crime", which seemed quite Orwellian.

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Posted (edited)

As long as they're being professional and not harassing etc. I don't care about this at all. I believe that there's good reason for it and that it does less harm than good.

Having said that I obviously don't live in NY...

But 6 out of the last 7 times I've flown out of Tullamarine Airport I've been frisked and scanned for bomb residue. Maybe it's my shaved head. Maybe I have a certain evil look in my eye :w00t: But it doesn't bother me.

I assume they have a quota to fill as they 'randomly' single you out from the crowd, but I realize I probably look more likely to carry a weapon than most (Just check out how criminal I look in my display pic).

Yes there is a difference between a Melbourne airport and NY streets but the way I see it: If you're innocent then to you it's worth the small inconvenience for the times that they do get the criminals.

Edit: Also similar but unrelated: When I cut my hair in a certain ~military style (jarheadish/shaved back/sides and short on top), cabs will not pick me up. The other Saturday night, 5 stopped as I was walking 4km from a bar to a nightclub at around 10PM, but they all drove off after (presumably) seeing me looking more thuggish than usual. If only they new how much of a nice guy I really was...

But that's all good and it doesn't bother me because late night cab driving is probably one of the most dangerous jobs around here, so I don't mind if they don't pick me up if it means they'll also skip the next criminal looking person so that they avoid getting physically assaulted or harassed.

Edited by Timonthy

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As long as they're being professional and not harassing etc. I don't care about this at all. I believe that there's good reason for it and that it does less harm than good.

I don't know about the law of the land in Australia, but the US Constitution pretty specifically says they can't search citizens without prior evidence that a crime has been committed.

People with attitudes like yours (that's just an observation, not a slam) have enabled cops to stomp rights all over the country:

They don't have the right to search your car when they pull you over for a traffic violation, but if you say no, they'll say, "OK, I'll just have my drug sniffing dog walk around the vehicle a few times."

Setting up roadblocks to check the papers of EVERY person who drives through? That's as bad as stop and frisk and is begging for Godwin's law to be invoked.

People embracing the idea that if you're doing nothing illegal then you should be fine with random searches is probably a wet dream for would-be tyrants.

But 6 out of the last 7 times I've flown out of Tullamarine Airport I've been frisked and scanned for bomb residue. Maybe it's my shaved head. Maybe I have a certain evil look in my eye :w00t: But it doesn't bother me.

Airports are a different case like going into a courtroom. By entering that specific place, you're offering to give up the right since those areas are very attractive locales for someone to carry weapons with the intent to use them. That's way different from someone being able to stop you, question you, search you on public streets just in case you've done something wrong.

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i live in nyc, never been stopped and frisked. maybe cuz i don't look like crackhead\hoodlum\gangster. cuz that is who they stop,99 out of 100 times, ppl that they arrest daily, cops know their customers.

if you notice it is "civil right activists" like al shapron, and the likes who scream rasicm, they don't question the policy cuz it is ineffective, but hey, cops did conficate few guns during those stops. gunhaters should love that.

the fact is even without such policy cops could stop anyone that want to, they can always find reasonable couse. and judge will believe cops before anyone else. this is just another reason for al shapron and alikes to scream rasicm and claim another way of oppression by white man.

I wonder if they scream racism because no white people get stopped and searched. This is America and it's pathetic that people got so scared after 9-11 that they begged to have thier rights taken away. I'm not afraid of terrorists, I'm afraid of power monger politicians and unelected government officials using the fear of the less intelligent Americans to erode my rights.
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This is America and it's pathetic that people got so scared after 9-11 that they begged to have thier rights taken away

what are you talking about, who begged?? i have not seen anyone begging in nyc, or anywhere, you think politicians ask ppl before they do? get real, they do what fits them, ppl have no say in it.

and i also lmao, when ppl say "they voted for them, they deserve it", no body voted for them, if you believe this election B.S. than you need to get even more real.

it is all show, an illusion, and it obviously works, for vast majority

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I wonder if they scream racism because no white people get stopped and searched. This is America and it's pathetic that people got so scared after 9-11 that they begged to have thier rights taken away. I'm not afraid of terrorists, I'm afraid of power monger politicians and unelected government officials using the fear of the less intelligent Americans to erode my rights.

I'm also wary of mayors who want control and power over people in both their city and their country. First, he uses the "war on obesity" to ban huge sodas. Then, he uses the "war on guns" to attack our rights. Bloomberg is Big Brother mixed with Mary Poppins.

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Wow. This is just crazy. Didn't know NYC did that.

They're not under legal martial law, so I don't see how they can do this.

Just crazy.

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I don't know about the law of the land in Australia, but the US Constitution pretty specifically says they can't search citizens without prior evidence that a crime has been committed.

People with attitudes like yours (that's just an observation, not a slam) have enabled cops to stomp rights all over the country:

They don't have the right to search your car when they pull you over for a traffic violation, but if you say no, they'll say, "OK, I'll just have my drug sniffing dog walk around the vehicle a few times."

I presumed the mentality here and there was similar. Similar laws here about the searching of vehicles or property etc. And similarly those laws can easily be circumvented by people in authoritarian positions.

I have a view of Americans which sees them screaming freedom excessively and unnecessarily, having said that, obviously I'm an outsider looking in.

That's all I can offer this topic, not very productive but I think somewhat significant.

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I presumed the mentality here and there was similar. Similar laws here about the searching of vehicles or property etc. And similarly those laws can easily be circumvented by people in authoritarian positions.

I have a view of Americans which sees them screaming freedom excessively and unnecessarily, having said that, obviously I'm an outsider looking in.

That's all I can offer this topic, not very productive but I think somewhat significant.

I"m not one of the people who think non Americans should not have opinions (no legal say, sure, but opinions don't bother me). I think discussion is always a good thing.

That said, you say there are laws in place to protect you, laws that authorities routinely ignore as they do here, yet you don't have a problem with that? Where do you draw the line? Is it when they break the law against planting evidence on you to wrongly convict you of a crime? How about when they decide the law that promises they won't shoot you down like a dog in the street is no longer in effect?

While my hypotheticals may seem far fetched, they are technically just as bad as violating the Constitution's protection from illegal search and seizure. There's no gray area - those who enforce the laws should NEVER be permitted to break them.

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There's no gray area - those who enforce the laws should NEVER be permitted to break them.

well they are not permited on papaer, but they do it, and get away with that 99 out of 100 times, and courts, judges, DA's cover them up, unless it is something too big, or they can no longer hide.this is reality of life, yes we do have problem with that, but we have problems, they have power, and no way in hell they will just release it, or listen to how you think they should do their job. there is nothing avarige joe shmo can do. that is also reality of life.

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I"m not one of the people who think non Americans should not have opinions (no legal say, sure, but opinions don't bother me). I think discussion is always a good thing.

That said, you say there are laws in place to protect you, laws that authorities routinely ignore as they do here, yet you don't have a problem with that? Where do you draw the line? Is it when they break the law against planting evidence on you to wrongly convict you of a crime? How about when they decide the law that promises they won't shoot you down like a dog in the street is no longer in effect?

While my hypotheticals may seem far fetched, they are technically just as bad as violating the Constitution's protection from illegal search and seizure. There's no gray area - those who enforce the laws should NEVER be permitted to break them.

Randomly being frisked, having my car (this has happened) or property searched, breath tests etc. I have no issue with and would not request warrants. I would ask why and take film to document it but I am not a criminal and I have nothing to worry about.

I know what you're saying with the technicalities but still, as a law abiding citizen I'm happier knowing that there's a higher chance they will get the people who are breaking the law.

Planting evidence etc. is a massive jump. Yes grey areas always leave it open to the possibility of an escalation of issues but I have faith in the majority of people with authority. There will always be crooked cops that slip through recruitment and corrupt the force but bad people work their way into all areas of society, so we can only do our best to put those people away and let the good ones do their jobs to the best of their ability.

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well they are not permited on papaer, but they do it, and get away with that 99 out of 100 times, and courts, judges, DA's cover them up, unless it is something too big, or they can no longer hide.this is reality of life, yes we do have problem with that, but we have problems, they have power, and no way in hell they will just release it, or listen to how you think they should do their job. there is nothing avarige joe shmo can do. that is also reality of life.

There's maybe nothing we can do about it, but maybe there is. It is a fact, though, that unless we actually care, things will only get worse.

Randomly being frisked, having my car (this has happened) or property searched, breath tests etc. I have no issue with and would not request warrants. I would ask why and take film to document it but I am not a criminal and I have nothing to worry about.

I know what you're saying with the technicalities but still, as a law abiding citizen I'm happier knowing that there's a higher chance they will get the people who are breaking the law.

Planting evidence etc. is a massive jump. Yes grey areas always leave it open to the possibility of an escalation of issues but I have faith in the majority of people with authority. There will always be crooked cops that slip through recruitment and corrupt the force but bad people work their way into all areas of society, so we can only do our best to put those people away and let the good ones do their jobs to the best of their ability.

Protection from illegal search and seizure is not to protect criminals from the consequences of their actions, it's to prevent corrupt officers from having the opportunity to frame innocents. Granted, more guilty will walk if their rights are protected than innocent will be framed if their rights aren't, but that's what our justice system is supposed to be based on - the concept that if ten people are under suspicion, it's better for 9 guilty men to go free than for the tenth, innocent one to be wrongly convicted.

As I said, I don't know if your laws protect you from random searches, but ours is definitely supposed to. There's no massive jump between their breaking the law of the land to strip you of your protections and their breaking the law of the land to change evidence requirements.

Keep in mind, the framers of the US Constitution were super paranoid about the government they were establishing becoming corrupt (in fact, most believed it was inevitable that all governments quickly become this way). The protections they put in the document were specifically to prevent "the people" from coming to fear the government.

To put how far we are down that path in perspective, imagine you're driving down the road and you suddenly see blue lights in your rear view mirror: I'd bet there's a ~100% chance your reaction is going to be something along the line of "Oh, crap!!" and ~0% that it'll be "Oh, the helpful officer is going to let me know that I forgot to put the cap on my fuel tank."

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In my experiance police get very very canny at spotting "bad customers", I mean they do so for a job every day.

We have stop and search in the UK and I belive that there must be "reasonable grounds" before a search can be carried out. Its more about how you define "reasonable".

As an example.

Case 1.

You are a policeman, you see two men high vis vests and paint stained clothes walking down the road, they are talking and one is carrying a tool-box.

Case 2.

You are a policeman, you see a man in a suit walking briskly down the street towards the train station.

Case 3.

You are a policeman, you see a pair of young men in hooded jackets standing hunched at street corner, they have their hands in thier pockets and appear to be doing nothing of any use or reason. Its a warm summers day.

Case 4.

You are a policeman, you see a man in a parked car, the car has not moved in some time, the man looks agitated when he meets your gaze.

Now, which of the above would you feel the need to investigate?

Now, it may be that due to various social reasons that poor neghbourhoods are more of one racial group than another, but the fact is that if I see case 3 or 4 I would instantly think "What are they up to? why is the man in he car acting agitated? why are the two young men wearing hoods on a hot day? What are they doing?

A policeman would likely say "The dude in the car has somthing to hide, the young men are carrying somthing they should not".

This, is NOT racism, this is "I have been doing this job for a long time and I got a hunch" its those hunches that police rely on to do there jobs.

Also, if the last 8 black/latino guys you stoped were carrying drugs or packing a weapon, stopping no.9 cos he is black or latino and fits the outline all the others who were breaking the law, is NOT racism.

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It's not about racism. It's about the fact that even experienced cops aren't mindreaders and "That guy looks suspicious" isn't (or at least shouldn't be) just cause to question or search someone. Even 20 years ago, you know what they'd do? They'd go up to the person, say a friendly "Hi", let them presence be felt. Anything more is a violation of (American) rights.

You know why drug dogs false alert half the time in tests? Because their handlers EXPECT certain people to have drugs (whether that's because of race, dress, demeanor, whatever). When this happens, the dogs alert even without smelling something. Now, some people are going to be thinking, "That's fine, they'll still be right half the time.", but the point is US Government officials aren't supposed to detain citizens for a fishing expedition.

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Posted (edited)

There's maybe nothing we can do about it, but maybe there is. It is a fact, though, that unless we actually care, things will only get worse.

than tell us what can be done by avarige joe that will see results fast, and wont get him\her arrested\jailed and posibly ruin the rest of his life???? don't just go with "we need to care" meningless b.s.

Edited by aztek

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Posted (edited)

Get rid of the quotas the police are forced to get.

Make it the law that all arrests are taped audio and visual. Make the police accountable same as the damn politicians.

Edited by The Silver Thong

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It's kind of hard to tell who hides something or not, especially if someone is hiding something.

I can understand that they'd want to ensure safety in a widely populated city, but they should find less demeaning ways(more accurate ways).

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Get rid of the quotas the police are forced to get.

Make it the law that all arrests are taped audio and visual. Make the police accountable same as the damn politicians.

I'd also add eliminating the police getting to keep any money or merchandise from fines or seizures. That's a big conflict of interest.

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Posted (edited)

Like aztek said they are going after the criminals. Crime in ny is one of the lowest in America unlike Chicago where there are like 20 killings a week.

Cops know when some body is carrying a pistol

Edited by coolguy

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Posted (edited)

Like aztek said they are going after the criminals. Crime in ny is one of the lowest in America unlike Chicago where there are like 20 killings a week.

Cops know when some body is carrying a pistol

Cops don`t know a wallet from a pistol in NY as it shows 9 out of 10 ade jack crap. Its a quota and wait till this happens to you.

So the constitution means nothing to you, got it, now go buy a gun. After all this is against your constitution so damn shoot the military illegally searching you.

Edited by The Silver Thong

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Posted (edited)

well, the point of stop and frisk, is not to find guns, or knives, or other weapon, the point is quite the opposite,

make every hoodlum, and gangster (and cops know their clients, they're almost imposible to miss, come to nyc and see for yourself), know, they can be stopped and checked any time any, so they know NOT to carry any weapons.

same as check points on the roads, you will think twice before getting behind the wheel drunk, if you know any street may have checkpoint.

as for quotas, a cop can always find someone to give ticket to, in nyc, if they really want to.

ppl just throw garbage on the street, that is a good reason for ticket, any cop can issue his montly quotas just for that in one day. especially after school is over, these school kids turn trains\station buses into garbage dumps in just 2 hours.

Edited by aztek

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