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Ben Masada

A Proof That God Exists

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A PROOF THAT GOD EXISTS.

According to Moses Maimonides, a Philosopher, Theologian and Medical Doctor in his book "The Guide for the Perplexed," there would be no need for a Creator if the universe was eternal, without beginning or end. In other words, God would not exist. However, if the universe did have a beginning, God by necessity would exist.

From Abraham and until Aristotle God existed only for the pious who could exercise faith. For Cosmologists God had only been a probability;

extremely small nevertheless a probability. At the time of Aristotle that small probability had been erased as Aristotle discovered that the

universe was eternal; no beginning and no end. The pious went on with their faith but as Science was concerned, the non-existence of God had been established.

The line of thought that God's existence was depending on the universe having had a beginning lasted from about 330 BCE with Aristotle and until 1922 ACE with Georges Lemaitre a Catholic priest who brought the news about the Big Bang to the whole world as the beginning of the universe. Cosmologists throughout the world had to adopt Lemaitre's discovery as the nearest approach to the truth they had ever achieved. Now, since the universe had indeed a beginning, a proof had be established for the existence of God, blessed be He!

Ben

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Posted (edited)

But we don't know if the universe is eternal, infinite, large, small...etc. Who is to say the big bang was the actual beginning?

Not to get into the whole 'the proof for or against God' argument, but this is why I am so conflcted when it comes to God, religion, and creationism vs evolutionism. Nobody knows anything for sure. I like to believe there is a god, but the bible kills my belief. I like the bible, I like the stories with Jesus, and I hope there is a God, but so much of it is so improbable. I look at evolutionism the same way, as in, there is so much that science doesn't really know...but it makes sense, kind of...although also very improbable.

I guess I don't see the necessary proof in either explanation.

Edited by ChewiesArmy

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Posted (edited)

Now, since the universe had indeed a beginning, a proof had be established for the existence of God, blessed be He!

I'm sorry, but as a proof of the existence of any kind of deity this fails totally.

The following statement:

However, if the universe did have a beginning, God by necessity would exist

can not be considered to be proof since it has no supporting evidence to back it up. It is no different to me saying "if Manchester United win the English premiership the Moon, by necessity, must be made of cheese."

Unless I can establish a necessity for the Moon being made of cheese if Man Utd win the premiership then there is absolutely no logical validity to my statement. They are unconnected facts.

The same holds true with your argument, for it to be proof of God you must establish that a Universe with a beginning can only exist if there is a god. Without that all you have is a logical fallacy.

Edited by Waspie_Dwarf
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Before the existance of modern science, people generally viewed the universe as being similar to bread dough. It had no definate shape, except for the shape God molded it to be. This stance is understandable considering how little they knew at the time. However now with Modern science, people have learned more and more that the universe is something more of a gigantic machine that runs on and on like a clock, and yet for some reason people suddenly assume based on this knew found truth that the universe must have suddenly created and designed itself. To me the fact that the universe undoubtedly has a beginning, and has laws that are ever so perfectly fine tuned to support life, is even more proof of the existance of God rather than the original "bread dough" idea.

God does exist and he can be scientifically proven, so that mankind is without excuse. The biggest evidence can be found simply in the air you breath every day, but nevertheless, more proof has, can, and will be given.

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God does exist and he can be scientifically proven, so that mankind is without excuse. The biggest evidence can be found simply in the air you breath every day, but nevertheless, more proof has, can, and will be given.

Where is the proof?

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To me the fact that the universe undoubtedly has a beginning, and has laws that are ever so perfectly fine tuned to support life, is even more proof of the existance of God rather than the original "bread dough" idea.

How do we know it has universal laws? What maybe a law in our part of the Universe maybe an anomaly compared to the rest of the universe. I never understood how scientists can say something is a law of the universe. I guess because it's all we know?

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Where is the proof?

There are none so blind than those who do not wish to see.

How do we know it has universal laws? What maybe a law in our part of the Universe maybe an anomaly compared to the rest of the universe. I never understood how scientists can say something is a law of the universe. I guess because it's all we know?

Do we know for a fact? No. Of course just about everything requires at least a little faith. However are we reasonably certain based on scientific evidence? You betcha. If just one of the laws were altered just ever so slightly, than the universe could not form properly, and if any of the laws were different in other areas of the universe, than we would most likely see something suggesting it as such.

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Do we know for a fact? No. Of course just about everything requires at least a little faith. However are we reasonably certain based on scientific evidence? You betcha. If just one of the laws were altered just ever so slightly, than the universe could not form properly, and if any of the laws were different in other areas of the universe, than we would most likely see something suggesting it as such.

If one takes into consideration possiable muliverse theory. Then there is an infinite amount of universes, all having there own laws, based on how they I guess orginally started etc. Therefore is would be an infinite amount of universes that do not support life. Obviously we are in one that does. This is just probabillity, Not God.

My opinion anyways :)

Thanks

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If one takes into consideration possiable muliverse theory. Then there is an infinite amount of universes, all having there own laws, based on how they I guess orginally started etc. Therefore is would be an infinite amount of universes that do not support life. Obviously we are in one that does. This is just probabillity, Not God.

My opinion anyways :)

Thanks

Thus reaising the question however, where did the multiverse come from?... It just keeps backing up to the point of which everything came from literally nothing, which just can't be explained. So even with "multiverse theory," it still goes right back to the same point.

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I don't think God can be proven.

After all, that would snap me out of my insanity and I don't think the Devil wants that. :devil:

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There are none so blind than those who do not wish to see.

The bible is not proof, it is claims.

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I don't think God can be proven.

You and many other people as well. I think that if the truth can be known about many other things, then why not God? It only stands to reason that if we can know for a fact about many other sciences, than we can know for a fact about God.

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The bible is not proof, it is claims.

First, I never mentioned the bible.

Second, you just attempted to counter a supposed "claim" with a claim.

Third, you proved my point that your position is not rational, it is volitional. If you were rational you would be open to all possibilities, at least to those that could be supported by evidence. However instead you respond with rash opposition.

You do not want to find God. You have already decided you do not like him, nor want anything to do with him. I'll respect your decision, however I will not waste my time ministering to the volitionally blind.

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You do not want to find God. You have already decided you do not like him, nor want anything to do with him. I'll respect your decision, however I will not waste my time ministering to the volitionally blind.

You're just asserting claims about others' psychological state (evidence please that Havoc 'does not like him') based on pretty much nothing, which is odd for someone who is chiding others about what is rational and what is not. Regardless, depending on how you read the rules of this forum, I don't know that you are supposed to be 'ministering' here at all.

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You and many other people as well. I think that if the truth can be known about many other things, then why not God? It only stands to reason that if we can know for a fact about many other sciences, than we can know for a fact about God.

God is not a science. Saying "There are none so blind than those who do not wish to see." is a statement about faith, not proof. God's existence will never be proven. God's existence will also never be disproven.

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I don't think the existence of God can be proven. If even tangible things that we come to know of by means of senses, observence, or experience are perceived and interpreted differntly, how about the Unseen? Faith, unlike conviction, is never a matter of evidence. Evidence is used to convince someone of an idea not to make them have faith in a being. The whole effort and energy invested/spent in trying make people believe that God exists or doesn't exist is a waste to me and it prevents people from reaching Ataraxia. As the Pyrrhonians believe: "given that neither the sense impressions nor the intellect, nor both combined, is a sufficient means of knowing and conveying truth, one suspends judgement on dogmatic beliefs or anything non-evident."

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I'm sorry, but as a proof of the existence of any kind of deity this fails totally.

The following statement:

can not be considered to be proof since it has no supporting evidence to back it up. It is no different to me saying "if Manchester United win the English premiership the Moon, by necessity, must be made of cheese."

Unless I can establish a necessity for the Moon being made of cheese if Man Utd win the premiership then there is absolutely no logical validity to my statement. They are unconnected facts.

The same holds true with your argument, for it to be proof of God you must establish that a Universe with a beginning can only exist if there is a god. Without that all you have is a logical fallacy.

Live long and prosper, Waspie you nailed it.

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First, I never mentioned the bible.

Second, you just attempted to counter a supposed "claim" with a claim.

Third, you proved my point that your position is not rational, it is volitional. If you were rational you would be open to all possibilities, at least to those that could be supported by evidence. However instead you respond with rash opposition.

You do not want to find God. You have already decided you do not like him, nor want anything to do with him. I'll respect your decision, however I will not waste my time ministering to the volitionally blind.

Again, where is the proof? As Waspie said, it is logical fallacy.

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But we don't know if the universe is eternal, infinite, large, small...etc. Who is to say the big bang was the actual beginning?

Not to get into the whole 'the proof for or against God' argument, but this is why I am so conflcted when it comes to God, religion, and creationism vs evolutionism. Nobody knows anything for sure. I like to believe there is a god, but the bible kills my belief. I like the bible, I like the stories with Jesus, and I hope there is a God, but so much of it is so improbable. I look at evolutionism the same way, as in, there is so much that science doesn't really know...but it makes sense, kind of...although also very improbable.

I guess I don't see the necessary proof in either explanation.

Someone who knows better than you and myself must have the credibility to be trusted with the message that the big bang gave origin to the universe. If Cosmologists throughout the world unanimously adopted the findings of Lemaitre since 1922 it is because, for lack of something more assuring, the theory that the universe had a beginning is as good or better than the theory of the eternity of the universe. Otherwise, scientists would not have been so ready to adopt the latter.

Now, for your difficulty to believe in God because of the Bible itself try to get some expertise in metaphorical language. If you are not an atheist you must have been in close contact with them to have acquired the same evil of the common theist to anthropomorphize God with human attributes. Therefore, it is not the Bible but the theist

who believes in talking serpents that scares you away from the probablility of the existence of God.

Ben

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Posted (edited)

I'm sorry, but as a proof of the existence of any kind of deity this fails totally.

The following statement can not be considered to be proof since it has no supporting evidence to back it up. It is no different to me saying "if Manchester United win the English premiership the Moon, by necessity, must be made of cheese."

Unless I can establish a necessity for the Moon being made of cheese if Man Utd win the premiership then there is absolutely no logical validity to my statement. They are unconnected facts.

The same holds true with your argument, for it to be proof of God you must establish that a Universe with a beginning can only exist if there is a god. Without that all you have is a logical fallacy.

It also holds true with Lemaitre's argument that the big bang gave origin to the universe. There is no solid evidence to substantiate that possibility asside from scientific speculations. As long as cosmologists don't produce anything better for the origin of the universe, the theistic claim of a divine Creator must enjoy its place among all other probabilities and not be discarded as an idle tale.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada

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Before the existance of modern science, people generally viewed the universe as being similar to bread dough. It had no definate shape, except for the shape God molded it to be. This stance is understandable considering how little they knew at the time. However now with Modern science, people have learned more and more that the universe is something more of a gigantic machine that runs on and on like a clock, and yet for some reason people suddenly assume based on this knew found truth that the universe must have suddenly created and designed itself. To me the fact that the universe undoubtedly has a beginning, and has laws that are ever so perfectly fine tuned to support life, is even more proof of the existance of God rather than the original "bread dough" idea.

God does exist and he can be scientifically proven, so that mankind is without excuse. The biggest evidence can be found simply in the air you breath every day, but nevertheless, more proof has, can, and will be given.

I do agree with you Aquila. The big bang does give off the idea that the universe created and designed itself as if something can create itself. That's another evidence for

the Creator. That nothing can be the creator of itself. That's simple Logic.

Ben

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Now, since the universe had indeed a beginning, a proof had be established for the existence of God, blessed be He!

So what precludes a Big Crunch following a Big Bang? From what I understand, it used to be thought that there was not enough matter in the cosmos for it to implode upon itself in a big crunch, and that the universe would continue expanding forever. But recent science refutes this with the discovery of dark matter.

This sounds more in agreement with Vedic texts that speak of multiple extinctions and creations of the universe.

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So what precludes a Big Crunch following a Big Bang? From what I understand, it used to be thought that there was not enough matter in the cosmos for it to implode upon itself in a big crunch, and that the universe would continue expanding forever. But recent science refutes this with the discovery of dark matter.

This sounds more in agreement with Vedic texts that speak of multiple extinctions and creations of the universe.

Tell me Redhen, do you really know what is dark matter? ... or dark energy which is an accident of dark matter? The other day I was watching "Nova" in the History channel when a cosmologist would say that it is an enigma. They "feel" that's out there but no one is able to give a definition to it. I tell you something: If Science does not come up with a good explanation soon enough theists will be more than happy to proclaim that cosmologists are dillydallying with another evidence of God. Guess what? IMHO, the scientists are so to speak doing the work of Theology: Providing the evidence for the existence of God.

Ben

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Tell me Redhen, do you really know what is dark matter? ... or dark energy which is an accident of dark matter?

No, I am not an astrophysicist, if that's what you are asking.

IMHO, the scientists are so to speak doing the work of Theology: Providing the evidence for the existence of God.

Even if there was a big bang with no corresponding big crunch, that's not a proof for God. It has been established that certain particles can "pop" into existence out of "nothing". Mind you they don't last very long, but it proves the principle that nature abhors a vaccuum.

Also there's the circular reasoning argument, which begs the question who or what created God?

Then there's the cultural bias. How do you know it's the Abrahamic god that created the cosmos and not a different deity?

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