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Ben Masada

A Proof That God Exists

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Be my guest because I am going to prove to you by means of Logic that the universe or anything cannot have caused itself into existence. For something to cause itself into existence it must exist first. If it already exists it does not need to cause itself into existence. Therefore the universe could not have caused itself into existence because it did not exist prior to that action. Clear enough? I think one must read more than several times to catch the piece of the puzzle. Again in the form of a question: How can something cause itself into existence if it does not exist? Needless to say, the Creator has to be outside the universe to cause the universe into existence or expand it further.

Ben

But you are missing a huge key point. Quantum physics. Quantum physics shows us that at very very small scales. Probability not cause-effect, governs the universe. I know that is hard to wrap your brain around, but you must understand that at those small scales things DO happen that have no apparent cause but do not violate laws of physics. A quark might pop into existence out of nothing, for example, and annihilate with an anti-quark that also popped into existence almost immediately. There is no known 'cause' for why the quark popped into existence where it did and when it did. It just DID. But there is a certain probability that it would pop into existence. Now that we know that at very small scales this can happen randomly, governed by probability- its not too much of a leap to suggest that the ENTIRE UNIVERSE could also have just popped into existence following the quantum probability law out of nothing for no apparent reason. No cause, just chance. Probability. Which means- that it will happen again, it could happen in the space inside your thumb right now, for example, we just don't know. It could suddenly occur anywhere at anytime. We don't yet know enough about it to be sure of anything. It does not seem like a stretch to say that the universe IS therefore it was created. But this is a belief, an assumption based on physics that you experience and know. Dive into the world of quantum physics and you will see that things are not what you think they are. That we observe events that are not governed by cause-effect, but are instead governed by probability.

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How could there be design without a designer? It is like having a house without a builder of that house.

Did you ever hear of natura selection?

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How could there be design without a designer? It is like having a house without a builder of that house.

In what way does the Platypus support the existence of a designer?

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Did you ever hear of natura selection?

Yeah thats what I order when I have lunch at a Mac... A natura big mac. :innocent:

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But you are missing a huge key point. Quantum physics. Quantum physics shows us that at very very small scales. Probability not cause-effect, governs the universe. I know that is hard to wrap your brain around, but you must understand that at those small scales things DO happen that have no apparent cause but do not violate laws of physics. A quark might pop into existence out of nothing, for example, and annihilate with an anti-quark that also popped into existence almost immediately. There is no known 'cause' for why the quark popped into existence where it did and when it did. It just DID. But there is a certain probability that it would pop into existence. Now that we know that at very small scales this can happen randomly, governed by probability- its not too much of a leap to suggest that the ENTIRE UNIVERSE could also have just popped into existence following the quantum probability law out of nothing for no apparent reason. No cause, just chance. Probability. Which means- that it will happen again, it could happen in the space inside your thumb right now, for example, we just don't know. It could suddenly occur anywhere at anytime. We don't yet know enough about it to be sure of anything. It does not seem like a stretch to say that the universe IS therefore it was created. But this is a belief, an assumption based on physics that you experience and know. Dive into the world of quantum physics and you will see that things are not what you think they are. That we observe events that are not governed by cause-effect, but are instead governed by probability.

It is amazing that you can believe in the probability of this kind of fiction which you yourself do not understand the ABC's about it but find no place in your mind for the probability of a divine Creator. If I was a Christian I would say that Satan is working in you. It's a pity that you were not around to tell this story about Quantum Physics or Quantum Mechanics to Einstein who died in his refusal to believe such a nonsense. To me you are talking about magic. Houdini would have a jolly time to show you the holes of this verbal juggling.

Ben

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Did you ever hear of natura selection?

Natural Selection; yes, of course! A natural process responsible for the survival of the fittest as a result of either mutation of genes or physical adaptation. But I fail to see the connection with the issue under discussion. What's the point?

Ben

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In what way does the Platypus support the existence of a designer?

Oh I see! You are implying that I am a Christian that believes that the Designer has been designing every aquatic mammal since the first cause and every time a specie appears in the picture of nature. No, in that sense I tell you: He did not design me but my parents did albeit not voluntarily. Hence the Classic Philosophers would name Him the Primal Cause; the One Who started all. IOW, the One who pushed the first piece of the domino so-to-speak. Can you explain the origin of the universe? I guess not. Since the universe did not cause itself into existence, the Designer is implied whether you want or not. That's simple Logic.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada

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I can't wait to crack open a beer and read this entire thing.

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It is amazing that you can believe in the probability of this kind of fiction which you yourself do not understand the ABC's about it but find no place in your mind for the probability of a divine Creator. If I was a Christian I would say that Satan is working in you. It's a pity that you were not around to tell this story about Quantum Physics or Quantum Mechanics to Einstein who died in his refusal to believe such a nonsense. To me you are talking about magic. Houdini would have a jolly time to show you the holes of this verbal juggling.

Ben

I never said that I do not believe in a creator, just that because of our lack of knowledge at the moment there is not definitive way to know if there is or is not a creator. This 'magic' I speak of (quantum physics) has tons of evidence to back it up. Modern computers would not be possible without understanding it. The world changed because of our understanding of it. It is real and measurable, and able to be utilized for real technological purposes. How can you say that a creator is any more likely than beautiful mathematics and laws of nature that lead to a spontaneous creation? I admit it could be either way, but that we just do not know. You argue like you know, but faith is not knowledge, and belief is not evidence. To me each choice could be equally as probable, but those spooky magical quantum physics that you do not understand are proven. I do not think that "Satan is inside me" because I am not filled with any hatred, any malice, any anger. Just a desire to know truth, and a wonder and awe of nature and its beauty. Whether God did this or not I am perfectly happy either way.

Edited by Einsteinium
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Oh I see! You are implying that I am a Christian that believes that the Designer has been designing every aquatic mammal since the first cause and every time a specie appears in the picture of nature. No, in that sense I tell you: He did not design me but my parents did albeit not voluntarily. Hence the Classic Philosophers would name Him the Primal Cause; the One Who started all. IOW, the One who pushed the first piece of the domino so-to-speak. Can you explain the origin of the universe? I guess not. Since the universe did not cause itself into existence, the Designer is implied whether you want or not. That's simple Logic.

Ben

The designer is not implied, all that is implied by your logic is that there was a cause. What that cause is, remains unknown. We can speculate all we want but it will remain unknown barring some fantastic breakthrough in science.

If the the arguments for the existence of a designer were argued in court, there would be plenty of reasonable doubt.

Just like arguments for M-theory, or others.

We just do not know, why are you so threatened by the truth that we just simply do not know for sure?

Edited by Einsteinium

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Can you explain the origin of the universe? I guess not. Since the universe did not cause itself into existence, the Designer is implied whether you want or not. That's simple Logic.

Ben

The origin of the universe is explicable - you may not like the explanation and therefore disagree with it, but that is not the same as saying it can't be explained. "Since the universe did not cause itself into existence" is an assumption. Working from that, your logic appears sound - but that does not mean any god has to be the default designer. He's a candidate, but not the only one. But all that's irrelevant seeing as you base your conclusions on an unwarranted assumption.

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if you need ''proof'' of how religious logic works, my profile pic is pretty self explanatory.....

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For me, I used to believe in evolution the naturalist views of the universe, but now, I just can't see it. It takes more faith to believe in evolution and the big bang, etc, than to believe in God. What's so hard or wrong about believing in a God? Why does that automatically make one stupid or an idiot? I'm not saying anyone in here has called Christians idiots for having faith in God.

I had a friend who was a Christian but just stopped believing because she asked God for something and didn't get it. She told me straight out that evolution makes more sense. Now, I know that evolution is a process of small changes over time, but I always lump evolution in with the start of life and the beginning of the universe. I told her straight up, telling me that life started by itself is like saying that your house just formed naturally over time. You would think I was stupid if I told you that your house was the result of a natural process. Never in a trillion trillion trillion years could a house be built or made by any natural process. Impossible. But it was designed, created and built by an intelligent person.

But everything we see around us has the fingerprints of intelligence and information. A single strand of DNA has so much information in it it's hard to comprehend. A single cell is more complex than the most technologically advanced supercomputer around today and all that information and complexity is so tightly packed into something that's micoscopic and it all works together, trillions of cells and organs and everything that makes up a human being or any animal. Technology today can not even begin to create something out of nothing and it eventually become a living creature that has a thinking mind with instincts or what food it should it or how to reproduce.

So why is the existence of God so hard to accept??? You would laugh at me if I said your house wasn't created. But I get laughed at when I say everything was created by God.

As for the question: where did God come from? Well, you would accept it if scientists said the universe was eternal and as just always been. Well, that's the answer about God and is connected to the OP. God has always been. The universe hasn't. So it's obvious to me that the universe was created by a Being that has always been because the vastness of the universe down to the tiniest of particles are just way too complex to ever just happen randomly.

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For me, I used to believe in evolution the naturalist views of the universe, but now, I just can't see it. It takes more faith to believe in evolution and the big bang, etc, than to believe in God. What's so hard or wrong about believing in a God? Why does that automatically make one stupid or an idiot? I'm not saying anyone in here has called Christians idiots for having faith in God.

I had a friend who was a Christian but just stopped believing because she asked God for something and didn't get it. She told me straight out that evolution makes more sense. Now, I know that evolution is a process of small changes over time, but I always lump evolution in with the start of life and the beginning of the universe. I told her straight up, telling me that life started by itself is like saying that your house just formed naturally over time. You would think I was stupid if I told you that your house was the result of a natural process. Never in a trillion trillion trillion years could a house be built or made by any natural process. Impossible. But it was designed, created and built by an intelligent person.

But everything we see around us has the fingerprints of intelligence and information. A single strand of DNA has so much information in it it's hard to comprehend. A single cell is more complex than the most technologically advanced supercomputer around today and all that information and complexity is so tightly packed into something that's micoscopic and it all works together, trillions of cells and organs and everything that makes up a human being or any animal. Technology today can not even begin to create something out of nothing and it eventually become a living creature that has a thinking mind with instincts or what food it should it or how to reproduce.

So why is the existence of God so hard to accept??? You would laugh at me if I said your house wasn't created. But I get laughed at when I say everything was created by God.

As for the question: where did God come from? Well, you would accept it if scientists said the universe was eternal and as just always been. Well, that's the answer about God and is connected to the OP. God has always been. The universe hasn't. So it's obvious to me that the universe was created by a Being that has always been because the vastness of the universe down to the tiniest of particles are just way too complex to ever just happen randomly.

That is your opinion and I respect it, but it is your opinion and is not in any way verifiable. Just because you think things are way to complex to happen 'randomly' does not mean that they are. What is 'obvious' to you, is not anywhere near obvious to many other people. I do not accept anything that scientists just say. That is the beauty of science. Anything science theorizes must have objective evidence to back it up. Religion is what someone just says and you accept it point blank because it agree's with your intuition or is just 'obvious' to you. Science does not have that convenience.

There are plenty of examples of natural systems that arise from chaos naturally, with no intelligent being needed. Just look at the earth's weather patterns for example. Extremely complex. So complex that our best supercomputers are unable to precisely and accurately model the entire system at one time. This extremely complex system is the result of really simple physics that we do understand. Another example would be the rings of Saturn, very complex, but are sustained by forces we can understand. Yet another example would be the simple freezing of water. The fact that all the trillions of water molecules line up in a relatively predictable way, this is not planned or designed, it is just the result of the physics governing the process.

Did God set it all in motion? Or are there natural laws that we do not fully understand that set it in motion? We don't know. You say God did it. Someone else says M-theory, someone else says this is all just a huge simulation, someone else says the flying spaghetti monster did it all. None of those can be proven wrong, none of them can be proven right. Yet. Believe whatever you want to believe, but that does not make it objectively true.

Edited by Einsteinium

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But this is all theoretical, and it's only theoretical because otherwise the math in their theory would not work. It is the expansion of Schrodinger's cat, but in any real experiment, the cat is definitely either alive or dead, it is not both.

It is not theoretical, quantum fluctuations are real. They predict the casimeer effect and the effect has been prooven. But it is not really the right language to say that it popped out of nothing. It's just a fact that uncertainty is a fundamental part of nature and at the smallest scales uncertainty means that at any given moment there is a fluctuation of energy. You might think of it as the constant ripple on a lake. It's impossible for there not to be some energy. This coupled with quantum tunneling ( another prooven fact) and we have a very plausible mechanism for the big bang. It did not come from 'nothing' by definition nothing does not exist.

Edited by Seeker79
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That is your opinion and I respect it, but it is your opinion and is not in any way verifiable. Just because you think things are way to complex to happen 'randomly' does not mean that they are. What is 'obvious' to you, is not anywhere near obvious to many other people. I do not accept anything that scientists just say. That is the beauty of science. Anything science theorizes must have objective evidence to back it up. Religion is what someone just says and you accept it point blank because it agree's with your intuition or is just 'obvious' to you. Science does not have that convenience.

There are plenty of examples of natural systems that arise from chaos naturally, with no intelligent being needed. Just look at the earth's weather patterns for example. Extremely complex. So complex that our best supercomputers are unable to precisely and accurately model the entire system at one time. This extremely complex system is the result of really simple physics that we do understand. Another example would be the rings of Saturn, very complex, but are sustained by forces we can understand. Yet another example would be the simple freezing of water. The fact that all the trillions of water molecules line up in a relatively predictable way, this is not planned or designed, it is just the result of the physics governing the process.

Did God set it all in motion? Or are there natural laws that we do not fully understand that set it in motion? We don't know. You say God did it. Someone else says M-theory, someone else says this is all just a huge simulation, someone else says the flying spaghetti monster did it all. None of those can be proven wrong, none of them can be proven right. Yet. Believe whatever you want to believe, but that does not make it objectively true.

And your view is somehow verifiable?

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Who created god.And then who created him. etc

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The main problem Christians have with evolution seems to be that they don't want to admit we are animals -- a species of ape. They like the Bible saying we were a special creation with dominion over the animals.

The problem with this is that we eat, drink, breathe, defecate, reproduce, locomote, sleep, burp, get sick, grow old, and do all the other things animals do, using the same biology and chemicals.

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It is not theoretical, quantum fluctuations are real. They predict the casimeer effect and the effect has been prooven. But it is not really the right language to say that it popped out of nothing. It's just a fact that uncertainty is a fundamental part of nature and at the smallest scales uncertainty means that at any given moment there is a fluctuation of energy. You might think of it as the constant ripple on a lake. It's impossible for there not to be some energy. This coupled with quantum tunneling ( another prooven fact) and we have a very plausible mechanism for the big bang. It did not come from 'nothing' by definition nothing does not exist.

This may be (and I think probably is) how time began. People think cause and effect are principles of logic; they are not. In fact, the opposite -- there is no logical reason why things should cause other things other than magic. What we see as cause and effect are our brain's interpretation of the law of large numbers being applied to random events at the atomic or smaller level.

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For me, I used to believe in evolution the naturalist views of the universe, but now, I just can't see it. It takes more faith to believe in evolution and the big bang, etc, than to believe in God.

And yet both evolution and the big bang is supported by scientific evidence. God isn't.
So why is the existence of God so hard to accept??? You would laugh at me if I said your house wasn't created. But I get laughed at when I say everything was created by God.

"God did it" is an unsubstantiated statement, it is no more verifiable than Zeus throwing lightning bolts. How much thought do you put into these questions?

The house analogy is clear creationist ignorance. You don't understand the difference between the natural and man made.

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This may be (and I think probably is) how time began. People think cause and effect are principles of logic; they are not. In fact, the opposite -- there is no logical reason why things should cause other things other than magic. What we see as cause and effect are our brain's interpretation of the law of large numbers being applied to random events at the atomic or smaller level.

So chemical reactions don't occur and are just random events interpreted by our brains?

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So chemical reactions don't occur and are just random events interpreted by our brains?

Random does not mean without a measurable probability, and often the probability approaches 100% -- especially when you put two reactive chemicals next to each other. There remains a randomness based on where the electrons happen to be, so differences in timing of split seconds remain random. You should read Hume on the subject.

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Random does not mean without a measurable probability, and often the probability approaches 100% -- especially when you put two reactive chemicals next to each other. There remains a randomness based on where the electrons happen to be, so differences in timing of split seconds remain random. You should read Hume on the subject.

This is still causality though, the chemicals coming into contact, reaction, and the outcome.

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This is still causality though, the chemicals coming into contact, reaction, and the outcome.

Not if it is looked at the quantum level. There is always one chance in some umpteen gazillion that it won't happen.

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Not if it is looked at the quantum level.

So what is your explanation of the decay of unstable particles?
There is always one chance in some umpteen gazillion that it won't happen.
And when it happens it sounds like you still want to ignore causality.

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