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Born of water

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Who is born of water and spirit ?

Regeneration , born again : of water and spirit: born of God. This is Jesus doctrine. Water, Serpent is a symbol of spirituality , power, wave, electromagnetic spectrum. Snakes understands almost all kind of vibrations from sonic to cosmic rays. We are all the children of serpents, wisdom and love.

In Oromo and ancient Egyptian cosmology, Oromo or Atum created from or out of water. Oromo came from mada walaabu. Infinite ocean of water and spirit no one knows " where it comes from and where it is going. "

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Since primeval times water and spirit have been recognised as very similar but opposite sides of the same coin. Both bring life and rejuvenation one physiclaly the othe rspiritually both flow ebb and change In christianity humans need to be washed, or born again, in water (physically) and in the spirit (spiritually) to cleanse and renew the whole body.

The process of physical birth, for early humans, probably created the concept of water being a vital fluid associated with birth. But also humans can't live long without water and so it would be observed early, that water was a critical need for a human being. A little water can often revive and revitalise a very ill or even an unconscious person who is dehydrated.

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Water played a minor part in Jewish Temple ritual (certain ablutions) but had no role in the introduction of someone into the community.

Where, then, did baptism come from? Did John the Baptist just start doing it and everybody around said this looks like a good thing to do? It must have had some sort of history, but what?

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Posted (edited)

Water played a minor part in Jewish Temple ritual (certain ablutions) but had no role in the introduction of someone into the community.

Where, then, did baptism come from? Did John the Baptist just start doing it and everybody around said this looks like a good thing to do? It must have had some sort of history, but what?

The concept of cleansing by water is multi cultural and developed indpendently eg in hinduism. It probably connects to the multiple importances of water based on observation. Immersion in water promotes healing and health, for example. Humans have "always" washed a new born baby for obvious reasons and so water is also connected to birth. Hence if the concept of rebirth evolves it is likely to have a symbolic attachment to water.Because water is so benign and essential, it has always been one of the first things to be worshipped and embedded in beliefs and rituals, like the sun.

This site offers a simple comparative religious explanation for the significance of water in a number of religions.

http://www.africanwater.org/religion.htm

Edited by Mr Walker
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Posted (edited)

Who is born of water and spirit ?

Regeneration , born again : of water and spirit: born of God. This is Jesus doctrine. Water, Serpent is a symbol of spirituality , power, wave, electromagnetic spectrum. Snakes understands almost all kind of vibrations from sonic to cosmic rays. We are all the children of serpents, wisdom and love.

In Oromo and ancient Egyptian cosmology, Oromo or Atum created from or out of water. Oromo came from mada walaabu. Infinite ocean of water and spirit no one knows " where it comes from and where it is going. "

Hi Abba mudda,

Something in you has to die for this "resurrection" to happen, to be "born again." Otherwise, one wouldn't understand the magnitude of being "born again." One wouldn't bother with it, to begin with, because one really has to feel it in one's heart that one is ready to accept a new MAJOR reality. "Dying" is not just one time. If you're full of yourself...go figure.

It's a transformation.

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

"Jesus replied, 'Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.'" John 14:23

Basically, one is being made into a Christ-like person through the Holy Spirit's sanctification. It's the only way to stay in the "unconditional love" presence of Jesus, God. It has nothing to do with snakes, at least in the Christian context.

"You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell from where it came, and where it goes: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." John 3:7-8

A "born again" Christian follows the will of the Holy Spirit (God, Christ), for he or she is a temple of God. When the Spirit enters one's being, it sometimes feels like a wind out of nowhere, or a refreshing running spring, so I've heard people say...

Peace to you, Abba.

Edited by braveone2u
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Well one of you tells me that water is important (not surprising) and the other quotes the Bible; I guess they don't know where the Christian rite came from.

I think it probably came from similar rites of other mystery religions of the time. It certainly has no Jewish origin. The Biblical passages sure sound that way -- just more evidence that early Christianity was really a Greek attempt to syncretize Jewish Messianism with Greek neo-Platonist cults, and not a branchoff of Judaism after all.

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Water played a minor part in Jewish Temple ritual (certain ablutions) but had no role in the introduction of someone into the community.

Where, then, did baptism come from? Did John the Baptist just start doing it and everybody around said this looks like a good thing to do? It must have had some sort of history, but what?

Hi Frank Merton,

I believe it's to emulate the sanctifying nature (or power) of the Holy Spirit.

Peace.

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I'm not sure you know the meaning of "emulate." Perhaps "symbolize" would work better (but then I'm not a native English speaker).

What is "sanctify" and how can something have such a "nature." Just what is the Holy Spirit anyway? Is it God? Why does He need a separate spirit, oh, and what makes one thing holy and something else not holy? My I'm full of questions.

(Clue: I'm trying to get you to forumulate your belief in real words, not cliches and slogans).

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Posted (edited)

"Emulate" is imitate. There's nothing cliche about what I'm saying. Think of what I'm saying as planting a seed, if anything else. When I write, I'm not just writing to you.

Peace.

Edited by braveone2u

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Planting seeds of your faith I suppose. You have no notion of how cliched that all is. There is nothing wrong about preaching, but use reason and evidence, not worn out cliches and slogans you were taught from when you were a baby.

Now, just tell me how something holy differs from something that isn't. Also, what is this power in baptismal water that makes it different from when I take a bath?

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Water symbolize Electromagnetic spectrum, Spirit, Spirituality. We , Jesus, Atum, are all fishes.

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Planting seeds of your faith I suppose. You have no notion of how cliched that all is. There is nothing wrong about preaching, but use reason and evidence, not worn out cliches and slogans you were taught from when you were a baby.

Now, just tell me how something holy differs from something that isn't. Also, what is this power in baptismal water that makes it different from when I take a bath?

Only God has the power to make a being holy. As I have mentioned, the baptismal water is emulating the cleansing power of the Holy Spirit.

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Whatever; I give up.

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Posted (edited)

Whatever; I give up.

Frank,

I respect your belief system, believe me. Since this is a forum, I chose to answer certain questions and at the same time, share my thoughts to like minded people. The fact of the matter is, I'm not in heaven yet -- don't forget. What I share with you is my personal experiences with my renewed faith in Jesus Christ. There was a time when the Bible didn't make a bit sense to me -- to cut a long story short.

Peace to you always.

Edited by braveone2u

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I have no belief system; I think beliefs are evil things that get in the way of clear thought. All we should have are opinions that we hold with varying degrees of assurance depending on the quality of the evidence.

I'm curious about Christianity and where it came from, and I am also curious about words that Christians bandy about, like "holy" that to me are empty -- just slogans that make them feel good. Sorry to be so blunt, but the bit about "planting seeds" has been said before (I think by Jesus if memory serves) and is not a tired old worn out phrase -- a cliche. Use of such expressions does not persuade, it only causes ridicule, although in my case since I'm not prone to ridicule it just causes me to look at the sky.

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I have no belief system; I think beliefs are evil things that get in the way of clear thought. All we should have are opinions that we hold with varying degrees of assurance depending on the quality of the evidence.

I'm curious about Christianity and where it came from, and I am also curious about words that Christians bandy about, like "holy" that to me are empty -- just slogans that make them feel good. Sorry to be so blunt, but the bit about "planting seeds" has been said before (I think by Jesus if memory serves) and is not a tired old worn out phrase -- a cliche. Use of such expressions does not persuade, it only causes ridicule, although in my case since I'm not prone to ridicule it just causes me to look at the sky.

I hear you. Well said. On the other hand, the Bible deeply touches my heart and dramatically changing my life. Again, no judgment here. We are all finding our way. It just happens that Jesus has the best offer around, and that's where I'm at in my life.

My break is over, back to work.

Peace.

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Hi Abba mudda,

Something in you has to die for this "resurrection" to happen, to be "born again." Otherwise, one wouldn't understand the magnitude of being "born again." One wouldn't bother with it, to begin with, because one really has to feel it in one's heart that one is ready to accept a new MAJOR reality. "Dying" is not just one time. If you're full of yourself...go figure.

It's a transformation.

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

"Jesus replied, 'Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.'" John 14:23

Basically, one is being made into a Christ-like person through the Holy Spirit's sanctification. It's the only way to stay in the "unconditional love" presence of Jesus, God. It has nothing to do with snakes, at least in the Christian context.

"You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell from where it came, and where it goes: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." John 3:7-8

A "born again" Christian follows the will of the Holy Spirit (God, Christ), for he or she is a temple of God. When the Spirit enters one's being, it sometimes feels like a wind out of nowhere, or a refreshing running spring, so I've heard people say...

Peace to you, Abba.

What is this 'new' reality that you are accepting? Is this a waking up to your own sense of self efficacy? The transformation aspect doesn't make sense in practical terms for me. Thank you for answering.

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Posted (edited)

What is this 'new' reality that you are accepting? Is this a waking up to your own sense of self efficacy? The transformation aspect doesn't make sense in practical terms for me. Thank you for answering.

Hi Sherapy,

For example: there was a time when materiality (materialism) was everything to me. I had more than many people could ever say. Some even say that I had the best of everything. Everything revolved around keeping this ideal going. Unlike the saving grace of Jesus (God, the Holy Spirit), things change, fall away, etcetera. Physical death has a way of shifting things, or at least, the last time I died started my "real" spirituality, even though I wasn't fully in sync with it at that time. It did haunt me, and I could only be so grateful for it.

LINK: http://www.unexplain...c=242570&st=120

That was just the beginning. After several years went by after coming back to life, I also started losing my precious "things," the tangible "objects" (of my affection) to which I had invested my existence on earth. I'm very conservative when it comes to the "things" I value, but alas, even my careful planning and hard work (slaving away) and brilliant mind and belief in my Self (the "god" in me, a la New Age)...didn't prevent the seemingly neverending collapse, my situation. A modern day Jonah?? (The Book of Jonah parallels my life's story in many ways, or at least the horrors he went through, but in my case, God didn't have a role because of "free choice." I was not a practicing Christian during these "bad" years; therefore, my "free choice" was still intact.) Circle of life, things going in cycles?? The "idols" I had built were destroyed (in my heart!), lost, BUT it's like a passing nightmare once I regained my religious sanity. Truth is, we're all going to lose everything one day. Doors sealed shut but a profound one opens "...to rule them all."

Salvation.

It's a transformation because I'm not in heaven yet. I'm still growing in Christ, becoming Christ-like through the Holy Spirit's guidance. I know my limitations, and that's a blessing (or growth) in itself. The older I get, the more obvious and in-yer-face they become. It is important to know one's limitations. It's the only way to move forward. The time we have on earth is a purification process because our destiny is to become a spirit one day. It's inevitable. Spirit is NOT tangible; therefore, if one still has (earthly, material, physical) INTENSE cravings...go figure. Plus, in the Void, one's senses (including psychic senses, no doubt) are completely useless, for one is totally alone, unless...

Again, every "thing" will fall away one day. One should prepare oneself. The Bible speaks loudly to me, above the rest. Besides, Jesus Christ was there to remove me from that Void. Yes, He has my full allegiance, regardless. That's my bottomline. On the other hand, when I recently realized that He has brought "hope" into my heart, that was the time I became I Christian. This "hope" is to be in paradise with Jesus Christ's everlasting "unconditional love" presence. This "hope" truth came out of nowhere.

Speaking of transformation in motion, I'm traveling lightly nowadays...not just figuratively.

God bless you.

Edited by braveone2u

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Well one of you tells me that water is important (not surprising) and the other quotes the Bible; I guess they don't know where the Christian rite came from.

I think it probably came from similar rites of other mystery religions of the time. It certainly has no Jewish origin. The Biblical passages sure sound that way -- just more evidence that early Christianity was really a Greek attempt to syncretize Jewish Messianism with Greek neo-Platonist cults, and not a branchoff of Judaism after all.

While much of christianity is jewish in origin (and judaism included aspects of babylonian and egyptian theologies which reverenced water) there are and were different beliefs within judaism One physical origin of baptism lie in the story of christ's encounter with john the baptist who WAS baptising by immersion in water before christ and WAS a jewish person.

So some elements of judaism did involve baptism, pre christ. (unless you think that story is simply a made up one.)

The tranference of water as a physical to a spiritual healing power is natural.

One origin I read in judaism came from the crossing of the red sea, and the liberation/new life that all jews experienced from that passage 'through" the waters.

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Posted (edited)

I'm not sure you know the meaning of "emulate." Perhaps "symbolize" would work better (but then I'm not a native English speaker).

What is "sanctify" and how can something have such a "nature." Just what is the Holy Spirit anyway? Is it God? Why does He need a separate spirit, oh, and what makes one thing holy and something else not holy? My I'm full of questions.

(Clue: I'm trying to get you to forumulate your belief in real words, not cliches and slogans).

Sanctify is to cleanse or purify. Water has always had this physical and metaphysicla aspect to humans.

Christianity, in its theology, connects literal physical cleansing by water (of the body)and spiritual cleansing (of the human spirit) by the holy spirit into one process.

In my experience and understanding the holy sirit is like our will and energy system Our body hosts it and our consciousness directs. it In the trinity, god the father equates to our consciousness, the holy spirit to our energy systems and will, and christ represents our literal physicla creative manipulative and material aspect (although he is also much more than this)

So when god talks to me and intertfaces with my consciousness in various ways, it is god the father. When his spirit fills me with powerand energy, and heals and transforms me, that s the holy spirit, and when he appears before me, in literal or symbolic form, to educate, teach, protect etc., that is christ the human avatar of god on earth, and a template for my human body and life.

I also contain those three aspects of self, and each relates to and corresponds to, a part of the trinitarian nature of god.

Ps my suggestion would be that anything which is "of god", be it material/physical/body ; mind /consciousness; or spirit/ nature, is holy, while those things not "of god" are not holy. God used here is much wider than simply the christian image or understanding of god.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Well one of you tells me that water is important (not surprising) and the other quotes the Bible; I guess they don't know where the Christian rite came from.

I think it probably came from similar rites of other mystery religions of the time. It certainly has no Jewish origin. The Biblical passages sure sound that way -- just more evidence that early Christianity was really a Greek attempt to syncretize Jewish Messianism with Greek neo-Platonist cults,

*** and not a branchoff of Judaism after all.

Really Frank, you think Christianity doesn't stem from Judaism?

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Posted (edited)

I have no belief system; I think beliefs are evil things that get in the way of clear thought. All we should have are opinions that we hold with varying degrees of assurance depending on the quality of the evidence.

I'm curious about Christianity and where it came from, and I am also curious about words that Christians bandy about, like "holy" that to me are empty -- just slogans that make them feel good. Sorry to be so blunt, but the bit about "planting seeds" has been said before (I think by Jesus if memory serves) and is not a tired old worn out phrase -- a cliche. Use of such expressions does not persuade, it only causes ridicule, although in my case since I'm not prone to ridicule it just causes me to look at the sky.

Cliches often begin from and derive from self evident truths, metaphorical or allegorical connections, and powerful language. Just because they are old does not make them either untrue or trite. That is your mind doing this.

Most cliches contain words of truth and power. eg "rom an acorn a mighty oak tree grows". "A stitch in time saves nine," and so on. They were used in times when society was not literate as teaching/ learning tools, as were children's rhymes and other songs. Your response to words is your own. It does not/ may not, reflect either the writer's intent or the response of other people. Words, and epsecially words symolising powerful things, have great power and influence . Ridicaule and disparagement does not diminish such power. The "grain of mustard seed" analogy gives an image of how one of the smallest seeds in nature can grow into something large and important, and illusratrates how ideas evolve in the same way. Fuller or Everettt or Johnston, or who ever wrote about the acorn, was symbolising the same concept, centuries later.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Oromo is ideal Man for this generation, who will baptize by water, spirit, fire, Holy ghost : Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus. . . on the name of one God. Oromo guides humankind from all traditions and religions to Water and Mountain of God symbolicaly where Oromo went up to it and baptized himself . No one could be better than him, because he has Saffu best ethical law compared to other human laws, gada law compared west democracy. And he was and is teacher of spirituality.

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Really Frank, you think Christianity doesn't stem from Judaism?

It depends on how you define "stems from." It stems from Isiah as read in the Greek LXX where "Jesus of Nazareth" is predicted (except that in the Hebrew the passage is more like "a branch of the stem of Jesse"). Given this mistake, a Greek looking for a way to combine Greek neoplatonic mystery religious ideas with Judaism (a highly respected religion of the day) and not having access to the Hebrew text of the Bible might actually come to believe in a sacrificed and resurrected Jesus (i.e., someone very much like Paul or someone preceding him).Later the stories (myths) about this Jesus' life on earth evolved and maybe fifty years later got written down.Baptism, not a Jewish ritual at all, but a common one in Greek mystery cults, fits this, so we presume in order for their Jesus to fit into the mystery religion someone initiating him (i.e., here comes John) does these things never heard of in Judaism called baptisms.Perhaps the best giveaway of all this is that the Christianity is so un-Jewish. For example they show no hint of any knowledge of the Tetrammagaton (not included in the LXX lest non-Jews learn of it). They don't follow the Law and indeed try to replace it. Jesus is full of neo-Platonic stories and platitudes. The entire betrayal and death and resurrection "for our sins" is right out of any mystery cult.Then there is the perennial problem of "Nazareth," not even founded for three more centuries and then in a place that does not at all fit the geography of the Gospels.

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I think maybe my problem with the cliche of Christians planting seeds, about as Bible as it gets, is the idea that they are doing "God's work," saving people "for God," and so on. This strikes me as arrogant to the point of being dangerous. What do you do if they reject God? Do you then continue doing "God's work" and destroy the infidels?

However, all I did was suggest he try to find something fresher: that it would be more effective. Actually such cliches -- even the ones you cited -- are painful to hear. Now of course a cliche to one person is an ancient word of wisdom to another -- I understand that.

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